View Full Version : Dublin Metro line to cost 5 Billion
Report in todays Irish Times saying the Metro from St Stephens Green to Swords costed at 5 billion euro. :eek:
- Ballymun section to be underground for some unknown reason.
- Underground stations to be basic in attempt to keep the costs down.
I am in favour of improving infrastructure but 5 billion for 1 Metro line is crazy especially as no cost-benefit analysis done & very slim chance it would come in under budget.
Though it was 5 billion including the Metro West route. Underground is under DCU I think (could be completely wrong on this)
Lionel Ritchie
07/08/2007, 3:49 PM
Let's not forget either we'll probably have John O'Donohues progeny telling us in 20 years time that 5 Billion Euro was a back of an envelope costing.:rolleyes:
Though it was 5 billion including the Metro West route. Underground is under DCU I think (could be completely wrong on this)
Could not find anything in the Independent today but IT had a very good article.
Definitely underground through Ballymun although it is probably cut 'n cover & I am fairly sure it only mentioned Dublin North. You will find links on the web mentioning 10bn for combination of West & North routes.
And yet there still isn't any plans to put a direct train line from Limerick to Galway? Jesus, heaven forbid the good people of Dublin have to use any of their already adequate publin transport to get around :rolleyes:
onceahoop
07/08/2007, 6:35 PM
Report in todays Irish Times saying the Metro from St Stephens Green to Swords costed at 5 billion euro. :eek:
- Ballymun section to be underground for some unknown reason.
Originally proposed to be on stilts but the locals objected to this and demanded it be underground. Thought with the social problems they have in Ballymun the last thing they'd want would be a haven for all sorts of unsocial activity. The Dart can be bad enough at night apparently.
John83
07/08/2007, 6:41 PM
Let's not forget either we'll probably have John O'Donohues progeny telling us in 20 years time that 5 Billion Euro was a back of an envelope costing.:rolleyes:
There's two of him? And they can breed?
And yet there still isn't any plans to put a direct train line from Limerick to Galway? Jesus, heaven forbid the good people of Dublin have to use any of their already adequate publin transport to get around :rolleyes:
Adequate eh...
Fair enough Pete, I must've gotten the wrong end of the stick...
John83
07/08/2007, 6:43 PM
And yet there still isn't any plans to put a direct train line from Limerick to Galway?
They can't get clean water in Galway. What chance have they of getting a train?
Poor Student
07/08/2007, 7:02 PM
And yet there still isn't any plans to put a direct train line from Limerick to Galway? Jesus, heaven forbid the good people of Dublin have to use any of their already adequate publin transport to get around :rolleyes:
Adequate for the South East of the city, not much use to those of us in other parts.
I think original FF plan was to complete the Metro by 2010. :D
thejollyrodger
07/08/2007, 8:16 PM
what a joke
Schumi
07/08/2007, 8:55 PM
I love the way the figures in the documents were all blacked out but the Times could read them by holding them up to the light. :rolleyes:
Some International comparisons:
Amsterdam (http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2006/09/amsterdam_metro_cost_soars.php)
Tuesday 26 September 2006
Metro costs soar
The cost of Amsterdam’s north-south metro line has gone up again, this time by €83 mln which raises the total estimate to €1.8 bn. Completion date is now 2013. The state is paying €1.1bn towards the new route, the rest must come from the council.
I don't know how long this one is but Dublin North will cost at least 500m per mile & I would not have considered Holland a cheap country...
Underground stations to be basic in attempt to keep the costs down.
Including no escalators!
I am in favour of improving infrastructure but 5 billion for 1 Metro line is crazy especially as no cost-benefit analysis done & very slim chance it would come in under budget.
Sure add it to the list of projects with no cost-benefit analysis. None of the infrastructure has had it, decentralisation hasn't had it etc.
Jesus, heaven forbid the good people of Dublin have to use any of their already adequate publin transport to get around.
Adequate? Yeah, that's why the city is snarled up to such an extent everyday. Having said that, 5billion would buy an awful lot of buses and park and ride car parks around the city with delivery a hell of a lot quicker.
galwayhoop
08/08/2007, 9:37 AM
at a price tag of €5 billion it makes the Bertie Bowl sound cheap.... could it be a cunning ploy to get the Bowl up and running.......
geysir
08/08/2007, 10:22 AM
Tuesday 26 September 2006
Metro costs soar
The cost of Amsterdam’s north-south metro line has gone up again, this time by €83 mln which raises the total estimate to €1.8 bn. Completion date is now 2013. The state is paying €1.1bn towards the new route, the rest must come from the council.
Afair it's about 10km, over half of it underground.
redgav
08/08/2007, 10:43 AM
And yet there still isn't any plans to put a direct train line from Limerick to Galway? Jesus, heaven forbid the good people of Dublin have to use any of their already adequate publin transport to get around :rolleyes:
are you for real .125,000 + in swords alone , yet the only transport is Bus which takes 1.5 hours at the best of times .
Torn-Ado
08/08/2007, 11:22 AM
And yet there still isn't any plans to put a direct train line from Limerick to Galway?
Thats never ever going to happen.
Including no escalators!
Reading some facts on the web on the Metro plan yesterday & some bizarre decisions & cost cutting/hiding measures.
* Capacity won't even meet current demand based on the numbers from Luas Green line.
* Swords is not included so when they add that its likely trains will be full before they get close to the City centre & prevents future expansion.
* Reduced numbers of ticket gates to reduce costs.
* No mention of modern safety doors (the ones that open aligned to the train when it arrives)
* Different gauge & voltage to Dart so cannot be integrated.
* No links to Luas, Train or Dart.
Seems like either the RPA or the government trying to deliberately keep costs down so project will get the green light & future costs can be sold as extension costs. If there are no new Luas or Metro lines would the RPA people be unemployed?
OneRedArmy
08/08/2007, 2:37 PM
Questions have to be asked as to why we seem unable, as a nation, to deal with complex infrastructure projects.
Lionel Ritchie
08/08/2007, 3:05 PM
Thats never ever going to happen.
But why not? The the track is there already. It could and should be done and there should be a link to Shannon and Shannon airport on it it as well and should ultimately form a Cork-Sligo Rail corridor.
We just can't build anything in this country until 30 years after it's needed.
But why not? The the track is there already. It could and should be done and there should be a link to Shannon and Shannon airport on it it as well and should ultimately form a Cork-Sligo Rail corridor.
Why would anyone get the train from Cork to Sligo? The teams only play each other 1-2 times a year at the Showgrounds... :confused:
John83
08/08/2007, 4:52 PM
I love the way the figures in the documents were all blacked out but the Times could read them by holding them up to the light. :rolleyes:
The US military (I think) got screwed once when they released some documents with words blanked out, but people could just remove them with a pdf editor. :)
geysir
08/08/2007, 5:23 PM
If it's the same incident then that was an Irish lass who managed that.
We can decipher the US military secret documents, build everything everywhere else in the world but useless at diy in the home.
galwayhoop
14/08/2007, 9:20 AM
unfortunately ifrastructure and transportation in this country are used as political footballs preventing the powers that be from carrying out projects that are required.
for example this proposed metro line will not even satisfy demand for today never mind 5-10 years time when it's complete. however for the metro to fully satisfy demand it should be on a larger scale and service more areas which currently wouldn't justify such a service (but will in 10 years if ya get me). Problem is there would be outcry 'Why are ye building it there and not here ... etc,etc', 'Look how much this is costing ... etc,etc'. However if these projects were not politisized then no-one would have the fear of failing at the polls in the next election and therefore carry out what is most needed and not what is most politically beneficial.
Ideally infrastructure, health and transportation should be independently run bodies which draw up what is really needed and then present plans to the Dail to approve or refuse, instead of coming through government departments. This would reduce the breaucratic nonscence and allow the qualified people to propose, work on and complete projects which are needed....... Of course this would never happen as each party in government Need these big projects to be completed in the year of a general elecrtion to retain power!!!! Look what we did for ye this time ... etc,etc
Questions have to be asked as to why we seem unable, as a nation, to deal with complex infrastructure projects.
You missed the answer a couple of weeks ago at Galway Races. It was called the FF Tent, and the vested interest there in.
Lionel Ritchie
14/08/2007, 9:41 AM
Ideally infrastructure, health and transportation should be independently run bodies which draw up what is really needed and then present plans to the Dail to approve or refuse, instead of coming through government departments. This would reduce the breaucratic nonscence and allow the qualified people to propose, work on and complete projects which are needed.......
Sounds good in theory but, in practice and in this country with the amount of passive nod-n-wink corruption that exists already, it could well be a disaster.
Far too much development in this country is developer led for developer benefit as it is.
onceahoop
14/08/2007, 10:19 AM
unfortunately ifrastructure and transportation in this country are used as political footballs preventing the powers that be from carrying out projects that are required.
for example this proposed metro line will not even satisfy demand for today never mind 5-10 years time when it's complete. however for the metro to fully satisfy demand it should be on a larger scale and service more areas which currently wouldn't justify such a service (but will in 10 years if ya get me). Problem is there would be outcry 'Why are ye building it there and not here ... etc,etc', 'Look how much this is costing ... etc,etc'. However if these projects were not politisized then no-one would have the fear of failing at the polls in the next election and therefore carry out what is most needed and not what is most politically beneficial.
Ideally infrastructure, health and transportation should be independently run bodies which draw up what is really needed and then present plans to the Dail to approve or refuse, instead of coming through government departments. This would reduce the breaucratic nonscence and allow the qualified people to propose, work on and complete projects which are needed....... Of course this would never happen as each party in government Need these big projects to be completed in the year of a general elecrtion to retain power!!!! Look what we did for ye this time ... etc,etc
Development in Ireland is a disaster. Most railway lines in the country were closed years ago. The result is that most of the development around Dublin in particular was along the railway line. The result is large urban connubations with no facilities, long commuting delays, and a poor quality of life for a lot of the inhabitants. One developer has promised a new station in one area in return for another thousand houses. It's not a replacement train station that's needed. It's more trains. But to get more trains a third line is needed. But there's no room for a third line. Why??? Because over the years greedy developers were allowed by local councillors to build right up to the edge of the railway. Foresight how are you.:mad::mad::mad:
Because over the years greedy developers were allowed by local councillors to build right up to the edge of the railway. Foresight how are you.
On the old Harcourt Street - Bray line, they were allowed to build on the former track.
galwayhoop
14/08/2007, 10:29 AM
Sounds good in theory but, in practice and in this country with the amount of passive nod-n-wink corruption that exists already, it could well be a disaster.
Far too much development in this country is developer led for developer benefit as it is.
as I said ... Ideally
it seriously is an embarrassment that we would be afraid to set up an 'Independent Body' with no vested interest for fear of the corruption which could/would potentially steer it!!!!
it seriously is an embarrassment that we would be afraid to set up an 'Independent Body' with no vested interest for fear of the corruption which could/would potentially steer it!!!!
Yes, yes it is. Unfortunately, the country keeps on electing the ones that have made it so.
it seriously is an embarrassment that we would be afraid to set up an 'Independent Body' with no vested interest for fear of the corruption which could/would potentially steer it!!!!
Politicians are elected to make decisions not unelected "Independent" bodies. The recent FF lead governments love to setup "Independent" bodies to ensure the Ministers never have to make decisions & can't be blamed. How f***ked up is that. :rolleyes:
galwayhoop
14/08/2007, 2:35 PM
Politicians are elected to make decisions not unelected "Independent" bodies.
i am aware of this. however as it is politicians who make these decisions in the main they are in order to ensure re-election of the politician and in turn the party. i.e it is done to benefit the politician/party as opposed to the constituent they represent - fair enough the people get a benefit too but it is usually as a by-product. i mean how many dual carriageways and by-passes we announced/completed or began in the 18 months running up to the last election!
also i am very sceptical as to the timing of the aer lingus announcement and wouldn't be surprised if they were asked by the government to delay announcement till after election in return for no official opposition!
i am aware of this. however as it is politicians who make these decisions in the main they are in order to ensure re-election of the politician and in turn the party. i.e it is done to benefit the politician/party as opposed to the constituent they represent - fair enough the people get a benefit too but it is usually as a by-product. i mean how many dual carriageways and by-passes we announced/completed or began in the 18 months running up to the last election!
All very good but in theory (not practiced in Ireland) you would not vote for politicians that made bad decisions so there would be accountability.
If there are no new Luas or Metro lines do the RPA officials have jobs? Seems like they have a vested interest in getting approval to start new Project irrespective of the costs.
mypost
14/08/2007, 4:58 PM
Development in Ireland is a disaster. Most railway lines in the country were closed years ago. The result is that most of the development around Dublin in particular was along the railway line. The result is large urban connubations with no facilities, long commuting delays, and a poor quality of life for a lot of the inhabitants. It's not a replacement train station that's needed. It's more trains. But to get more trains a third line is needed. But there's no room for a third line.
By right, every county in the country should have a rail service. The fact that some Ulster counties don't even have a service in this day and age is a national disgrace. The fact that in order for you to travel from Limerick to Galway by train, you have to change at Kildare is an outrage, as is the fact you can't go direct from Maynooth to Celbridge, even though it's in the same fn' county. :mad:
There should be a line from Cork to Derry connecting with Limerick-Galway- Sligo-Donegal, and from Derry to Dublin via Monaghan. Whether the demand is there or not is not the issue, if you can run a bus service into every nook and cranny in the country, you should build a railway line too. There should also be night trains, and not the joke of a situation where Heuston and Connolly are practically deserted after 8pm. Wouldn't happen anywhere else. :rolleyes::mad:
Poor Student
14/08/2007, 9:00 PM
Whether the demand is there or not is not the issue, if you can run a bus service into every nook and cranny in the country, you should build a railway line too.
I e-mailed the Dept. of Transport about lack of late night transport with both Bus Eireann and Iranrod Eireann stating that as a public bodies they should offer service even if it wasn't entirely profitable, the minister's secretary wrote back telling me that due to lack of demand it wouldn't be viable.
mypost
14/08/2007, 10:01 PM
You run a suitable train every 3 hours or so, and I guarantee you there would be demand for it.
Just think how many fans would travel from matches around the country at the weekend on trains, if they were made available, for example. While there will always be people coming home from working night shifts, and people needing to get to airports/ferryports etc late at night, or early morning. The world doesn't stop between 9pm and 6am you know.
Saint MacDara
14/08/2007, 10:53 PM
New trainlines,metro or Luas systems are unfeasible in my opinion.They are too costly,cause carnage tearing up the roads and the timeframe is too long for a solution to the problem of lack of public transport we have right now!
The viable option seems to be more buses and bus lanes for Dublin city where the congestion is worst.They are more flexible,suited to a city like ours and it doesnt take training in Sweden to drive one.The billions the government has earmarked for the metro would go further buying hundreds more buses and construction of bus lanes out to the suburbs thus benefiting the majority rather than the minority.
It seems the best thing about the Luas has been for those homeowners near to it who have had their house prices jump in the past 2 years.Meanwhile Dublin Bus have to wait for National Development funds to improve a service that doesnt make loses like the other C.I.E companies.
There is a lot of benefits of rail - they get people out of cars who wouldn't consider buses for snobbish reasons. However, the priority should be on the hundreds of extra buses that you mention. You could open the park and ride car parks now that are planned for the luas and metro stations and service them with buses. You could open park and ride car parks at existing stations/ routes. (Using my own example, there are the services along the N11, but no where to park the car at the likes of Kilmacanogue, Newtown Mountkennedy, Ashford, Bray Dart Station etc). Some of the new proposed Luas lines just don't make sense in the first place - that outer ring that only goes as far as Tallaght instead of going onto Dundrum and the Sandyford Industrial Estate is stupid (thousands working in the area, plus a link to the other line), and could easily be serviced by buses on the M50.
There are two main reasons they won't do this though.
There's not enough good photo ops for buses as opposed to shiny new trams/ trains/ metro's.
The Government are ideologically opposed to investing in publicly owned transport, but then haven't the balls to take on the Dublin Bus unions either, so it's just stuck in limbo like a driver stuck in traffic.
There's not enough good photo ops for buses as opposed to shiny new trams/ trains/ metro's.
Saying you approved a couple of hundred new buses is not eye catching for Election campaigns.
mypost
15/08/2007, 4:56 PM
New trainlines,metro or Luas systems are unfeasible in my opinion. The viable option seems to be more buses and bus lanes for Dublin city where the congestion is worst. The billions the government has earmarked for the metro would go further buying hundreds more buses and construction of bus lanes out to the suburbs thus benefiting the majority rather than the minority.
Meanwhile Dublin Bus have to wait for National Development funds to improve a service that doesnt make loses like the other C.I.E companies.
The Luas is a privately-owned firm. Dublin Bus however, is a subsidiary of CIE, one of the biggest funded institutions in the country. If they can't fund buses from all the train, bus, and Luas cut they get every year, why should they be funded further?
Every major city that i can think of in Europe and the USA has a Metro system. Others have tram systems. Bizarrely, the reason they're there is because they're needed. :eek: The Luas takes 20 million passengers, and almost as many cars off the road every year. What would we do without it? :confused:
There's more than enough Dublin Buses, and Bus Eireann coaches to serve the country's needs. The bad news is, most of them are either out of service or parked in the garage.
Every major city that i can think of in Europe and the USA has a Metro system. Others have tram systems. Bizarrely, the reason they're there is because they're needed. :eek: The Luas takes 20 million passengers, and almost as many cars off the road every year. What would we do without it? :confused:
For all its problems Luas cost maybe E1bn for both lines. This proposed cut price Metro is projected to cost 5 times as much & lets be honest no one expects it to be completed near that number & has various fundamental flaws - Under capacity being a massive one.
Underground transport is required but should only be considered when a realistic costing for future capacity & no hidden numbers is provided.
MeathDrog
15/08/2007, 6:46 PM
By right, every county in the country should have a rail service. The fact that some Ulster counties don't even have a service in this day and age is a national disgrace. The fact that in order for you to travel from Limerick to Galway by train, you have to change at Kildare is an outrage, as is the fact you can't go direct from Maynooth to Celbridge, even though it's in the same fn' county. :mad:
There should be a line from Cork to Derry connecting with Limerick-Galway- Sligo-Donegal, and from Derry to Dublin via Monaghan. Whether the demand is there or not is not the issue, if you can run a bus service into every nook and cranny in the country, you should build a railway line too. There should also be night trains, and not the joke of a situation where Heuston and Connolly are practically deserted after 8pm. Wouldn't happen anywhere else. :rolleyes::mad:
Even in Meath you can't get a tran to Dublin even though we are right beside it! Why the hell don't we have a train service? The railway line is in place and is already used to bring cargo from Tara Mines to Dublin Port
Saint MacDara
15/08/2007, 9:38 PM
There's more than enough Dublin Buses, and Bus Eireann coaches to serve the country's needs. The bad news is, most of them are either out of service or parked in the garage.
There simply arent enough buses for the sprawlling Dublin suburbs,many stuck in traffic most of the time.Every area is crying out for new/improved services but they cant be provided because every vehicle is accounted for.
Outside my house there is a bus lane almost fully connected running into the city centre but no service fully utalizes it because theres not enough buses to go round (and it takes forever for a private company to get a licence).And now the Metro is planned to go through my area but of course it will be no use as it goes to Dublin airport when everyone else wants to go into town!
Im not disputing the fact that C.I.E are heavily subsidised but the biggest share of that money goes to Irish Rail.Do we really need another company to drain public funds like that?
Yes trains are a lovely and romantic form of public transport that's a piece of nostalgia will never be rivaled and i personally would prefer to use high speed trains like the TGV to travel around every town in Ireland and a subway system in Dublin but we have to take a reality check.Yes,by all means use the train lines we already have to capacity,new trains,news stations,feeder services but let's not go on a drunken spending spree trying to recreate the past with new lines and walking up with an expensive train set!
mypost
16/08/2007, 12:53 AM
Even in Meath you can't get a tran to Dublin even though we are right beside it! Why the hell don't we have a train service?
There are 3 train stations in Meath, at Enfield, Laytown, and Gormanston. We do have disused train lines in many parts of the country, and stations that were shut down when economics dictated. However, there is more than enough money to provide an efficient public transport system nationwide these days. People whinge about the cost, but if you want the best, you pay for it. If you don't, you put up with the current situation.
gilberto_eire
16/08/2007, 2:03 AM
They can't get clean water in Galway. What chance have they of getting a train?
the colleges top student scores full-marks for his jokes again!!... the water situation has been fixed, try come up with something new....also your pretty much saying that its up to us to get it...dont you realise we have a GOVERMENT situatied in DUBLIN that deal with this sort of thing?!:rolleyes:
John83
16/08/2007, 9:25 AM
the colleges top student scores full-marks for his jokes again!!... the water situation has been fixed, try come up with something new....also your pretty much saying that its up to us to get it...dont you realise we have a GOVERMENT situatied in DUBLIN that deal with this sort of thing?!:rolleyes:
Wow, clean water and still no sense of humour.
Or if you like, you can look at the website of Galway City Council (http://www.galwaycity.ie/) (who are responsible for your water), where the latest boil water notice still indicates quite a large area (http://www.galwaycity.ie/NewsFlash/WaterContamination/PressReleases/TheFile,3901,en.pdf) [pdf warning] of contamination.
gilberto_eire
16/08/2007, 3:12 PM
Wow, clean water and still no sense of humour.
Or if you like, you can look at the website of Galway City Council (http://www.galwaycity.ie/) (who are responsible for your water), where the latest boil water notice still indicates quite a large area (http://www.galwaycity.ie/NewsFlash/WaterContamination/PressReleases/TheFile,3901,en.pdf) [pdf warning] of contamination.
yes which has been sorted a few weeks ago with the switch-over just the notice is remaining!!....
im glad you take time out to keep an eye on our water situation!!:confused:
MeathDrog
17/08/2007, 12:37 AM
There are 3 train stations in Meath, at Enfield, Laytown, and Gormanston. We do have disused train lines in many parts of the country, and stations that were shut down when economics dictated. However, there is more than enough money to provide an efficient public transport system nationwide these days. People whinge about the cost, but if you want the best, you pay for it. If you don't, you put up with the current situation.
All them 3 stations are along the coast and they are not much good to you if you live in Navan or Trim or anywhere else in the county.Laytown is a 35 minute drive from Navan so you might as well drive into Dublin
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