Double standards that annoy you

[paul_oshea]

You have to be taking the ****....Maybe Im missing something..............

read from the begining, i walk into a unisex salon. How could you possibly walk into a barber, when its opened and the barber or at least one not be there?

still missing the point boz, its a unisex salon, it never said a "unisex salon for black people" even if it had that would be discriminating against me because of my colour


but not every black person can cut a white person's hair

Finally, no they cant, but when they work in a unisex salon I would assume they can, and if they cant again, they are discriminating. Until you can make a valid point, without resorting to stupid smileys to be either patronising or condescending then dont bother making a point, as its been done by about 20 posters before ye.

[micls]

read from the begining, i walk into a unisex salon. How could you possibly walk into a barber, when its opened and the barber or at least one not be there?

I did read it. Its very possible that they have seperate people for men and wonens hair.....

He could have been on lunch, felt sick and went to the chemist, been rushed to the doctor, had to meet someone urgently, gone to get more supplies or a million other things.

You have no idea and yet you automatically jump to the racism conclusion. Thats just as bad as when black people do it.

It couldnt have just been bad luck no :rolleyes:

[paul_oshea]

He could have been on lunch, felt sick and went to the chemist, been rushed to the doctor, had to meet someone urgently, gone to get more supplies or a million other things.

she said he wasnt here, so i assumed ok i can wait, then she said oh well he wont be here until saturday maybe....my point about the black guy originally ( but i didnt allude to it )is I thought he was the barber to be honest, but I could well have been wrong.

[Magicme]

When my mum buys the Northern Standard and I buy it too. That annoys me.

[micls]

she said he wasnt here, so i assumed ok i can wait, then she said oh well he wont be here until saturday maybe....my point about the black guy originally ( but i didnt allude to it )is I thought he was the barber to be honest, but I could well have been wrong.
Maybe he was on holidays and they were only doing ladies til he returned? Who knows?

Can you say with any degree of certainty that you were turned away because you were white?

Sorry but these kinda presumptions just bug me whether its black or white people making them

[paul_oshea]

Maybe he was on holidays and they were only doing ladies til he returned? Who knows?

thats a very fair point, but why lie then and not just say he is on holidays? If that were the case then fair enough. Its still doesnt excuse how they acted and spoke though. But as pointed out before that could just be extreme rudeness/no manners/ignorant.


Can you say with any degree of certainty that you were turned away because you were white?

I cant other than to say, the way i was spoken to, how I felt, how they made me feel uncomfortable, and that I have seen black fellas in there before and since when walking by......

[jebus]

Is it a double standard that a white person would be asked to give reasonable proof that they racially mistreated, whereas a black person might not get the same grilling?

Not talking about micls here, moreso if such a story was to be considered newsworthy by the national press. I highly doubt they would check full sources on a black person being turned away for their skin colour before running the story, but they probably would for a white person*

* Unless they work for the Daily Mail of course :p

[Erstwhile Bóz]

still missing the point boz, its a unisex salon, it never said a "unisex salon for black people" even if it had that would be discriminating against me because of my colour.
I know you would just LOVE to be refused from a place that called itself "a unisex salon for black people". Notwithstanding the fact that a salon whose expertise was solely black people's hairdos wouldn't be described as such -- more likely "Afro-Caribbean Stylings" or something -- it still wouldn't be discriminating against you, any more than all the ladies' hairdressers in the world are discriminating against you as we speak because you have men's hair.

Your pathetic inferred victimhood throughout this thread is quite boorishly demeaning of actual racial discrimination, or discrimination on any grounds.



Finally, no they cant, but when they work in a unisex salon I would assume they can, and if they cant again, they are discriminating.
You assume a lot of things, it seems. If a hairdresser works in a unisex salon, the only conclusion you can draw is that he/she cuts men's hair or women's hair or both.

I'm really at a loss trying to understand why you "assume" that a black hairdresser in a unisex salon would be more likely to be able to cut male Caucasian hair than a black barber in a men-only shop, unless you have some strange understanding of the word 'unisex', or furthermore why you think that the inability of a barber who specializes in black people's hair to cut white people's hair to the same degree of expertise is -- again! -- "discriminating".



Until you can make a valid point, without resorting to stupid smileys to be either patronising or condescending then dont bother making a point, as its been done by about 20 posters before ye.
You do not seem to appreciate that condescension remains the appropriate tone to take while making the same points you continue to be unable to understand. :ah, bless:

[paul_oshea]

Is it a double standard that a white person would be asked to give reasonable proof that they racially mistreated, whereas a black person might not get the same grilling?

thank you jebus. or ridiculed, isn't that bullying too, if foot.ie can be sued for libel can i sue for bullying and pish taking!? :( :p

[Erstwhile Bóz]

Is it a double standard that a white person would be asked to give reasonable proof that they racially mistreated, whereas a black person might not get the same grilling?

Not talking about micls here, moreso if such a story was to be considered newsworthy by the national press. I highly doubt they would check full sources on a black person being turned away for their skin colour before running the story, but they probably would for a white person*

* Unless they work for the Daily Mail of course :p
A black straw man is still a straw man.

As far as I am aware the Equality Tribunal requests factual evidence in all cases. Is this not the case?

If you're talking solely about the British-spawned media, then they are of course beneath contempt and have nothing to do with rational debate.

[paul_oshea]

boz, very good post, it only took you a few hours to come back with that, unfortunately at work I work, and only get to post quick replys. However well written, constructed and thought-provoking your post may well be, it still stands, it was a unisex hair salon, that had pictures of men and women on the walls, like most salons. they didnt cut my hair, and made up some pathetic excuse whilst at the same time just looked at me like i was bothering them or I shouldnt have even entered the place, laughing as to say "what is he doing here", fair play if you have never experienced, i am not trying to play the victim, I am just trying to put across how I felt and my view on this. If I were a black person and came on with any of this, it would straight away have brought out the PC brigade without a second thought.


You do not seem to appreciate that condescension remains the appropriate tone to take while making the same points you continue to be unable to understand. :ah, bless:

Nice finish though to your post, quite apt really, to your overall "tone"...im sure you will get me ;)


If you're talking solely about the British-spawned media, then they are of course beneath contempt and have nothing to do with rational debate.

Of course, because you say so :)

[jebus]

If you're talking solely about the British-spawned media, then they are of course beneath contempt and have nothing to do with rational debate.

Oh I'm talking solely about British spawned media, who, like it or not, seem to reflect the attitudes of society better than anything we currently have. It's sad that most people's views are shaped by tabloids and their ilk (The Indo, Daily Mail etc.), but that's the way it is. If they run a story saying a white/black guy was racially abused in a hair salon people will form their opinions around the headline (does anyone actually read tabloid articles?) and go from there

[Dodge]

great posting Erstwhile. We have a thread like this every now and again (http://foot.ie/showthread.php?t=33874) :rolleyes:

[Erstwhile Bóz]

However well written, constructed and thought-provoking your post may well be, it still stands, it was a unisex hair salon, that had pictures of men and women on the walls, like most salons. they didnt cut my hair, and made up some pathetic excuse whilst at the same time just looked at me like i was bothering them or I shouldnt have even entered the place, laughing as to say "what is he doing here", fair play if you have never experienced, i am not trying to play the victim, I am just trying to put across how I felt and my view on this. If I were a black person and came on with any of this, it would straight away have brought out the PC brigade without a second thought.
But you see, that's grand and I have no problem with that at all and every sympathy with you, UNTIL your last sentence, where you make this mental leap.

Thanks for the compliment on my post, by the way, but I must disabuse you of the notion that <time of post> - <time of reply> = <time spent replying>. I'm able to keep different windows open on my computer; the IT department here are amazing.




Nice finish though to your post, quite apt really, to your overall "tone"...im sure you will get me ;)
I'm quite sure I don't know what you could possibly be talking about...;)




Of course, because you say so :)
We know so. It is an immutable truth of any Irish internet forum, a fall-back aphorism of brotherhood in times of divisive debate.

[paul_oshea]

We know so. It is an immutable truth of any Irish internet forum, a fall-back aphorism of brotherhood in times of divisive debate.

well if nothing else you bring humour to over-ride( overshadow perhaps ) your inability to back up points, and that my lad, is very impressive :)



But you see, that's grand and I have no problem with that at all and every sympathy with you, UNTIL your last sentence, where you make this mental leap.

The mental leap doesnt follow much of a neural network, or does it?* Because the whole idea of neural networks is assumptions can be made based on the previous linked-list. Put another way, I have seen it from before, if a poster makes a post anyway like this then its jumped on and there are many a slapped wrist.

*Unless, of course, you never knew whether I was black or white :)

[paul_oshea]

when i say jumped on, I mean its taken straight away as being racist, discriminatory whatever you want to call it.

[Erstwhile Bóz]

well if nothing else you bring humour to over-ride( overshadow perhaps ) your inability to back up points, and that my lad, is very impressive :)
Whereas you, The Assumer, merely have to consult your neural networks to back up your leaps of logic. What have I not backed up? I'm working with the facts you have supplied and drawing unspectacular conclusions.



Put another way, I have seen it from before, if a poster makes a post anyway like this then its jumped on and there are many a slapped wrist.

But what do you think are the reasons for this? And what do you see as being the defining characteristics of your post or posts like it? Honest questions.

(Please refrain from invoking any images of the Über-PC Brigade in your answer.)

[jebus]

great posting Erstwhile. We have a thread like this every now and again (http://foot.ie/showthread.php?t=33874) :rolleyes:

Good times, good memories, thanks for bringing that one back Dodge :p

[Erstwhile Bóz]

We have a thread like this every now and again (http://foot.ie/showthread.php?t=33874) :rolleyes:
So ... circular! It's ... it's beautiful. I'll desist, so.

Racism is all about the context and nobody but paul_oshea was there, man, so sure I'll leave it at that.

[citizenerased]

why is there such a necessity to be PC. irish people are such hypocrites, they go on about ya cant say this, ya cant say that. then at the same time, knacker this knacker that, smelly knackers, branding a whole section of community witht the same brush..depriving them of work and entrance to social establishments.

[jebus]

why is there such a necessity to be PC. irish people are such hypocrites, they go on about ya cant say this, ya cant say that. then at the same time, knacker this knacker that, smelly knackers, branding a whole section of community witht the same brush..depriving them of work and entrance to social establishments.

As a member of a pub owning family I'd like to say that we don't allow 'knackers' in to our bar, be they part of the travelling community, or just plain ol' scumbags. History has taught a lot of people in the trade that you're asking for trouble by letting them in, and I've always found that to be true. It's a shame, as I'm sure some of them are decent people who want a quiet pint, sadly since they choose to live as a community, they can die as a community as well*

*figure of speech obviously, just in case someone started on me for advocating a genocide

[paul_oshea]

why is there such a necessity to be PC. irish people are such hypocrites, they go on about ya cant say this, ya cant say that. then at the same time, knacker this knacker that, smelly knackers, branding a whole section of community witht the same brush..depriving them of work and entrance to social establishments.

exactly.


But what do you think are the reasons for this? And what do you see as being the defining characteristics of your post or posts like it? Honest questions.

I cant. Because I am banned from a certain sub-forum, but I remember a couple of posters getting their wrist slapped ( me not included - for once :D )

It just goes back to citizens point really. You, Irish are complete hypocrites * :D

Please note the un-PC grammatically incorrect semantics above without the use of the word "we". :p

[superfrank]

One thing I notice a lot which I detest is the way some people are treated because of their nationality, not necessarily racist.

For instance, when George Best died there was lots of noise down here as people calling him the "greatest Irish footballer ever". He was Northern Irish and I'm sure there were a lot of Southerners who didn't like him during hios playing days because of his roots yet when he dies and everyone's calling him the greatest, the papers are very quick to jump on the bandwagon and call him Irish.

Another instance is with Andy Murray. When he wins he's British but when he's doing badly he's Scottish.

I hate that.

[Dodge]

why is there such a necessity to be PC. irish people are such hypocrites, they go on about ya cant say this, ya cant say that. then at the same time, knacker this knacker that, smelly knackers
Are you sure its the same people?

[noby]

Are you sure its the same people?
All those Irish, they're all the same.

[jebus]

Actually I'd just like to further my previous point. I have never called any member of the travelling community 'knacker', without the added ' ' of course. I don't think I'm being completely hypocritical, a small bit maybe, but not totally when I say I wouldn't allow them into my bar.

Maybe you have to be in the service industry to understand, but anyone who has ever worked in a bar will tell you that when you get a call that there is a traveller funeral, wedding, party etc. on in town you close your door. The reasons for this are, generally they don't come in to town for drinks, unless it's an occasion, and when there is an occasion they tend, as a group, to get completely bladdered and rowdy, and are quite difficult to get rid of when you are closing up. Furthermore, your main customers, the guys who come in everyday of the week, wouldn't want their night ruined by having to listen to people singing and shouting, people dancing around etc. If students did it I wouldn't let them in, same goes for anyone else.

I also worked in a cinema when I was younger, and there was quite a few instances on a Sunday afternoon (Rathkeale travellers tend to go to the cinema in Limerick at this time) where they had to be asked to leave for talking loudly during the movie, and sometimes for smearing their own **** on the bathroom walls (normally it would be the kid/teenage ones who did this particular act), so after a while the cinema started banning particular families of them from coming in. I don't count that as discrimination, they were given a chance, and blew it, and the cinema had to start thinking about their well-mannered customers.

As I said, it's a shame it happens, but it's also a shame that there is a sizeable element amongst them that wants to cause trouble, or at the very least don't give a toss about other people and their enjoyment. As a group that are proud of their community ties, and the fact that they are so closely knit, then the reprocussions of the whole group being banned from pubs, cinemas etc. for the actions of some shouldn't be considered in the same league as racism, or homophobic abuse in my opinion

[stann]

I didn't do anything to any coloured (sorry don't know which word to use there) person, neither did anyone else on here
Why should we have to fret about them? The world doesn't owe them a living because of something that happened decades ago.
It's the equivalent of not being able to walk past an English person without them offering you a good feed

Specious agrument. We're talking about races here, not individuals.

Does it really kill you not to be able to use a word? Use a different one. How hard is that?
Would you like being called 'Mick' or 'bogtrotter' all the time by British bulldog combat 18 types? Or would you say, well they can't mean me cos my name's not Michael and I've never even been in a bog?

[paul_oshea]

Another instance is with Andy Murray. When he wins he's British but when he's doing badly he's Scottish.

I hate that.


when harrington won the open last week, they went "Padraig tops the list" and then in the paragraph box below it says "HOW THE OTHER BRITISH GOLFERS FARED"

I have so many examples of that, but I wont bother going into it. He( as in anyone ) is an Ulsterman/British when doing well, but he is Irish when doing bad.


Maybe you have to be in the service industry to understand, but anyone who has ever worked in a bar will tell you that when you get a call that there is a traveller funeral, wedding, party etc. on in town you close your door. The reasons for this are, generally they don't come in to town for drinks, unless it's an occasion, and when there is an occasion they tend, as a group, to get completely bladdered and rowdy, and are quite difficult to get rid of when you are closing up. Furthermore, your main customers, the guys who come in everyday of the week, wouldn't want their night ruined by having to listen to people singing and shouting, people dancing around etc. If students did it I wouldn't let them in, same goes for anyone else.


Yes I know what you mean, we own a B&B at home anyhow, we let travellers stay twice, both times they knicked all the sheets and towels. Last time we let travellers stay because of this, jebus the point you are trying to get across, is you have to be a realist ( because of past experiences ) when working in the services industry. Its as simple as that, its harsh, but its true.

[stann]

Where'nt slaves picked from the west coast of ireland ?

Yes you're right, the handful of slaves taken from Ireland by the Barbary corsairs (North Africans and various converted Muslims mainly) easily makes up for the thousands and thousands and thousands of black Africans that were taken.

[superfrank]

I have so many examples of that, but I wont bother going into it. He( as in anyone ) is an Ulsterman/British when doing well, but he is Irish when doing bad.
They don't have to be Ulstermen, I've heard English reporters calling Robbie Keane British. :mad:

[sligoman]

He( as in anyone ) is an Ulsterman/British when doing well, but he is Irish when doing bad.But isn't he from Dublin so how can he be even classed as being from Ulster, never mind Britain?:confused:

[stann]

Stann, i have done nothing to any slaves or black people or anyone else, some people cant keep using that excuse for their "behaviour".

I didn't say you did. In fact if you read my post again I explicitly said my comments were not in response to yours.
I said that it just sounded like rudeness to me. If you think that rudeness had a racial element to it then you should report it, otherwise they'll keep doing it.

[paul_oshea]

I didn't say you did. In fact if you read my post again I explicitly said my comments were not in response to yours.
I said that it just sounded like rudeness to me. If you think that rudeness had a racial element to it then you should report it, otherwise they'll keep doing it.

Stann, No I know you werent refering to me, but I was just making a point though in general.


But isn't he from Dublin so how can he be even classed as being from Ulster, never mind Britain?


sccchhhhligoman, I meant he as in anyone from ulster not padraig harrington, its a pity nothing good came out of Donegal that they could latch onto!!!! :p
In the article they never actually say britishman padraig, but it was a paragraph in a box caption, and the one right below it said the above, therefore directly infering that Padraig was British do you get what I am saying?

[Lim till i die]

Specious agrument. We're talking about races here, not individuals.

Does it really kill you not to be able to use a word? Use a different one. How hard is that?
Would you like being called 'Mick' or 'bogtrotter' all the time by British bulldog combat 18 types? Or would you say, well they can't mean me cos my name's not Michael and I've never even been in a bog?

This on the otherhand is a brilliantly well thought out piece of argument :rolleyes:

My point is (are you ready now) that you either believe in free speech or you don't

You can't pick and choose IMO

If someone wants to prove how stupid they are by calling someone a ****** they should be allowed in a free society. Would it really bother a coloured person that much to be insulted by someone of such a low calibre

Still, at least I'm not being called a racist in this thread :) :rolleyes:

[jebus]

Still, at least I'm not being called a racist in this thread :) :rolleyes:

****ing bigot :p

[Lim till i die]

****ing bigot :p

When I saw the link in Dodges post I kept expecting the Emmanuel Whatyoumaycallit thread to be dug up

What a crazy afternoon that was :eek: :)

[stann]

My point is (are you ready now) that you either believe in free speech or you don't
You can't pick and choose IMO
If someone wants to prove how stupid they are by calling someone a ****** they should be allowed in a free society. Would it really bother a coloured person that much to be insulted by someone of such a low calibre

I believe in free speech myself, any rational person would. The thing is that most people are happy not to say certain things that cause offense. They might feel that they can if they want to, but they choose not to. I really can't see what's wrong with that.
The answer to your last question is yes, it would.
People going around saying racially distasteful things might well have the effect of proving how stupid they are, but it would have the much more immediate effects of insulting whole rafts of people and inciting hatred. The right to free speech has serious responsibilities that come with it.