Joe O'Reilly case

[aidz1]

was on youtube trying to seek out the appearence of joe or reilly on the late late show. couldnt find it on it.
anyone know of anywhere else on the net that has this???

[DmanDmythDledge]

Hopefully he gets locked up today.

[joeSoap]

I have no doubt personally as to his guilt in this case, but all of the evidence is circumstantial, and it will be a pretty hard case to prove. His mobile phone records have seriously damaged his alibi and credibility with the jury, but remember; he does not have to prove his innocence, the prosecution must prove his guilt beyond reasonable doubt. There is no murder weapon, just proof of an unhappy marriage and an adult having an affair...hardly unique in today's world.

I reckon he will walk, but has to live with this for the rest of his life.

[Erstwhile Bóz]

It's a funny state of affairs, and indicative of the bottomless detestability of the Irish gutter press, that I sort of want him to get off with an OJ and for the media's reporting of the case to be directly held responsible by the judge.

Even though, as your woman disbarred from the jury said, "he's as guilty as sin".

[mypost]

What I'd like to know is what's the case doing on ALL the front pages? :mad: It's not exactly a cliffhanger of an outcome. He slept with his pinky on the night of his LLS appearance, wow!! Who the hell could have forecast that, I wonder?? :rolleyes:

Surely there are more important matters going on in the country, such as the looming Eircom strike, or the unemployment rate reaching a 4 year high, rocketing inflation, and job cuts, than a whodunnit, or in this case, a whydidhedoit murder trial? :confused:

[Raheny Red]

Anyone else think his mistress could have known that he was the killer at the time :confused:

[Lionel Ritchie]

Anyone else think his mistress could have known that he was the killer at the time :confused:

Hmmm ....has she "turned against him" now? She was a prosecution witness this week but she could've been subpoenaed (sp?).

[pete]

I have no doubt personally as to his guilt in this case,

Thankfully you are not on the jury. How could you make such a decided based on the media reports?

TBH I have not followed this & don't see the reason for media obsession. I know its a quiet time for politics but it still hardly makes this front page news...?

[OneRedArmy]

Agree the coverage has been way OTT.

Today's CCTV evidence when tied in with the mobile phone info puts him in a difficult spot.

To put it mildly.

[Macy]

Agree the coverage has been way OTT.
Coverage of the emails was ridiculous. Newstalk had actors reading them out ffs. It's a wonder there hasn't been applications for a mistrial based on the coverage. Actually it's a surprise it went to trial at all given the amount of leaks/briefings by the cops to the media since the murder, in particular the herald.

[Lionel Ritchie]

I think he'll be convicted but it'll be overturned on appeal.

[NeilMcD]

Yeah totally agree Lionel.

[reder]

It's a wonder there hasn't been applications for a mistrial based on the coverage.

Absolutely amazed this hasnt happened. Its all over the place.

[OneRedArmy]

Apparently random punters (ie not family and friends of accused or victim) are queuing up for hours every morning to get into the public gallery (and inadvertently mingling with jurors, creating another potential reason for a mistrial).

Get a job/hobby/life people!

[Schumi]

Apparently random punters (ie not family and friends of accused or victim) are queuing up for hours every morning to get into the public gallery (and inadvertently mingling with jurors, creating another potential reason for a mistrial).

Get a job/hobby/life people!Most are retired I'd say.

[geysir]

I think it is a very interesting case.
AFAIA, there is no smoking gun, no forensic evidence, no direct witness evidence, so the prosecution have put an enormous amount of investigative work concentrating on picking holes in the alibi of the accused.
re the car on cctv
British expert in CCTV analysis said there was only "a moderate level of support" for the same make and model as the acccused.
Then there is the phone evidence.
I'd expect any decent defense lawyer to attempt to take the prosecutor's case apart piece by piece and discredit the reliability of depending on such evidence.

[joeSoap]

Thankfully you are not on the jury. How could you make such a decided based on the media reports? Am I not entitled to my opinion? I have developed my opinion partly on media reports, but also by what I have ascertained by evidence given at the trial, particularly as to the use of his mobile phone and supposed movements on the morning in question, which have proven already at this stage that he is lying through his teeth, and despised his wife.

The evidence against him is only circumstantial and this is why I believe he will be found not guilty, but Pete, this is only my opinion. The defence case will be largely based on the fact that there is no murder weapon, that his car could not be positively identified and basically there is no hard evidence to put him away.

[Calcio Jack]

Am I not entitled to my opinion? I have developed my opinion partly on media reports, but also by what I have ascertained by evidence given at the trial, particularly as to the use of his mobile phone and supposed movements on the morning in question, which have proven already at this stage that he is lying through his teeth, and despised his wife.

The evidence against him is only circumstantial and this is why I believe he will be found not guilty, but Pete, this is only my opinion. The defence case will be largely based on the fact that there is no murder weapon, that his car could not be positively identified and basically there is no hard evidence to put him away.

Based on the evidence so far I'd agree that he won't be found guilty because IMO the case against him has not been proved "beyond reasonable doubt" of course if you are to base your decision on the basis of "probability" I think 99% of us would find him guilty.

[drummerboy]

The whole case is similar to the Jack White's pub case. There was no real hard evidence that the accused done it and the papers were full of it. I have no doubt O'Reilly done it but could I prove it, I doubt it.

[Calcio Jack]

The whole case is similar to the Jack White's pub case. There was no real hard evidence that the accused done it and the papers were full of it. I have no doubt O'Reilly done it but could I prove it, I doubt it.

I thought in that case they were able to prove that the wife had paid a third party ?

[joeSoap]

They were able to prove that she solicited a third party to do the job, but they refused. The men she approached testified against her, which pretty much damned her case.

[mypost]

on the basis of "probability" I think 99% of us would find him guilty.

You need Proof, not probability, in a court of law.

Re: Media coverage; It has been quite disgraceful the vulgarity of it. A pile of original e-mails were listed off in the media last week, some of them of the most frivolous nature, e.g. "I'll call you later" :confused: and the fact that he slept with someone else is not exactly earth-shattering now is it?? But it was all over the papers, in "the public interest". Why?? :confused:

[Calcio Jack]

[QUOTE=mypost;727636]You need Proof, not probability, in a court of law.

That was my point, ie the prosecution has to prove their case " beyond reasonable doubt" not on the basis of probability. I'm sure the judge in his summing up and directing of the jury will make that very very clear to them , and that's why I think he'll go free.

[Erstwhile Bóz]

You need Proof, not probability, in a court of law.

That was my point, ie the prosecution has to prove their case " beyond reasonable doubt" not on the basis of probability. I'm sure the judge in his summing up and directing of the jury will make that very very clear to them , and that's why I think he'll go free.
Far be it from me to be so insulting to the twelve as to think them reflective of Irish society as a whole, but everything I've heard from almost everybody I've talked to about this would lead me to estimate that if they are representative, at least ten of those twelve jurors are in no doubt that O'Reilly is guilty; it must be an extremely strange position to be in if you think you 'know' that the person is guilty of something like murder and yet you're asked by the judge to get all technical about the reasonable doubt and all that.

[joeSoap]

There's only 11 Jurors as one was disqualified early on in the trial. Gut feelings are one thing, but points of law are another. Based on the evidence I've heard my gut tells me that he's guilty as sin, but if I was on a jury, I'd have to acquit him because to me, the evidence is too circumstantial and there would always be a modicum of doubt in my mind.

[Erstwhile Bóz]

There's only 11 Jurors as one was disqualified early on in the trial. Gut feelings are one thing, but points of law are another. Based on the evidence I've heard my gut tells me that he's guilty as sin, but if I was on a jury, I'd have to acquit him because to me, the evidence is too circumstantial and there would always be a modicum of doubt in my mind.
Did they not replace her? That's my point, though. I'd be surprised if a few others on the jury didn't think exactly like her, but just weren't complete spanners and didn't go blabbing all over the place.

I'd hope that I'd do likewise if I was on a jury, too (acquit, if the evidence technically warranted doubt, I mean).

[Calcio Jack]

Did they not replace her? That's my point, though. I'd be surprised if a few others on the jury didn't think exactly like her, but just weren't complete spanners and didn't go blabbing all over the place.

I'd hope that I'd do likewise if I was on a jury, too (acquit, if the evidence technically warranted doubt, I mean).


She wasn't replaced... based on the jury comprising 9 men and 2 women and the direction given today by the judge, he focuessed heavily on the fact that there is no direct evidence linking O'Reilly and also asked the jury to consider how they would feel if they were on trial and were convicted on the basis of the evidence presented... I don't see him being convicted

[sadloserkid]

The Irish Times was the only national paper not to put the woman he had the affair with on the front page the day after her evidence. But as somebody who works in a shop I can assure you all that the reason for the media hype is because the average punter is fascinated by the whole bloody thing (chicken and egg arguments aside). I've watched complete strangers having full conversations about it. :confused: And the world and it's mother thinks he did it.

[anto1208]

There is no way he can be found guilty the mobile phone mast thing although reported to be damming evidence is actually very unreliable there are many reasons why the phone would route to those masts ( other masts not working properly etc ) and since that is there main evidence would they not have at least gotten a mobile driven the route and shown the results for that trip to the jury ???

Then add in that you have a witness that says he was with him when the murder was happening , He had according to the prosecution 18 mins to get home kill the wife clean up and get back !!! seems unlikely .

Now there is no way I can say if he did it or not but from the evidence provided he can’t be convicted I hope we don’t live in a country where people are convicted on gut feelings :eek:.If he doesn’t walk it’s a disgrace

[NeilMcD]

I agree with you Anto. There is no way they can find him guilty on the evidence that has been presented to us.

[drummerboy]

They were able to prove that she solicited a third party to do the job, but they refused. The men she approached testified against her, which pretty much damned her case.

It still doesn't prove without doubt she solicited someone else. OK in all probability she did. That is why I think there are similarities in the two cases. Don't think it is as cut and dry as some make out

[geysir]

[QUOTE]Then add in that you have a witness that says he was with him when the murder was happening , He had according to the prosecution 18 mins to get home kill the wife clean up and get back !!! seems unlikely.

It's interesting in this discussion that people offered definite opinions on the accused's guilt before the defense had even presented their case.

It does appear incredible that even if those aspects of the prosecution case are accepted then the deed including travel time was done in less than 18 minutes.
That would include a 100% clean up so effective as to leave no forensic trace of the deed on the accused or his car.
Personally I would have to see a frame by frame walk through recreation to see if even this was remotely possible within the timeframe.

[Superhoops]

If he walks should he change his name from Joe O'Reilly to OJ O'Reilly? :)

[onceahoop]

.

It's interesting in this discussion that people offered definite opinions on the accused's guilt before the defense had even presented their case.

It does appear incredible that even if those aspects of the prosecution case are accepted then the deed including travel time was done in less than 18 minutes.
That would include a 100% clean up so effective as to leave no forensic trace of the deed on the accused or his car.
Personally I would have to see a frame by frame walk through recreation to see if even this was remotely possible within the timeframe.

Was the 18 mins timeframe not the time the lookalike car took to go by Murphy's quarry either way.

[onceahoop]

Just checked and the 18mins refers to the time between Rachel O'Reillys car going towards her home past Murphys quarry and the car that is allegedly Joe O'Reillys going the opposite way. The quarry is almost beside the house.

[pineapple stu]

Far be it from me to be so insulting to the twelve as to think them reflective of Irish society as a whole, but everything I've heard from almost everybody I've talked to about this would lead me to estimate that if they are representative, at least ten of those twelve jurors are in no doubt that O'Reilly is guilty
I was called for jury duty once. Wasn't selected (person before me completed the last jury), but I was watching the people who were called up. It was the criminal court, and I think all the cases were rapes. You could follow the cases in the papers, and in particular the verdicts. Just by looking at the people, I got all the cases right. Now either (a) I'm a genius, or (b) juries do have a tendency to go with gut feeling as well as evidence.

Oh, and I think 15 are called for a jury, so in case of drop outs, the person is simply replaced by someone who's been watching all along. (Not sure of the number called, but that's how it works anyways).

[Superhoops]

I also did jury service once on a very serious case.

It took ages to reach a verdict because 3 people on the jury could not grasp the principle that the onus was on the prosecution to prove the allegation against the defendant and that the defendant was not required to prove anything in criminal proceedings.

It was clear in the case that the prosecution case was weak and it had failed to prove the allegation beyond reasonable doubt. Even though they agreed this to be the case these 3 voted a for 'gulity' verdict because the defendant had not given evidence and therefore did not prove his innocence.

The judge had to give directions twice on this principle before eventually they reluctantly accepted the prosecution had failed.

Since then, I have always advocated that before anyone serves on a jury they should be able to demonstrate they understand this principle.

[geysir]

I have always advocated that before anyone serves on a jury they should be able to demonstrate they understand this principle.
Agreed, except I'd say that they should demonstrate that comprehension beyond reasonable doubt :)
Some in the jury in this case appear to be very confused.
The judge has had to painstakingly explain again what proof beyond reasonable doubt is, what benefit of doubt means and for the jury to assume the accused is innocence until proved otherwise.
But he still has to leave it to the individual consciences of the untrained jurors to decide on all these matters.

[Lionel Ritchie]

Just checked and the 18mins refers to the time between Rachel O'Reillys car going towards her home past Murphys quarry and the car that is allegedly Joe O'Reillys going the opposite way. The quarry is almost beside the house.


18 minutes is a bloody long time. Subtract the adverts and it's about the length of an episode of The Simpsons. Unless you're planning on beating someone to death with a tennis ball it's plenty of time to off someone-particularly if pre-meditated. Most of the time would be spent on clean up.


The judges intructions in relation to the phone records allow the jury to convict if they decide he has lied about his movements on the basis he has something to hide. I think they'll convict him and it'll be booted out on appeal as the evidence just isn't sufficient.

It's a little galling as I think he did it, but it's a measure of a mature society that we free people who, on balance of probability, more than likely commited heinous crimes rather than risk jailing an innocent person.

If he does walk that girls family should sue the hole off him in a civil court.

[SligoBrewer]

just heard he's been found guilty...

he'll get out after an appeal imo..no evidence there at all

[GavinZac]

I've tried to stay away from this trial as the facts are never fulling outed - however - how can anyone possibly say that this was proven beyond reasonable doubt? It seems as though half the evidence being talked about was only thrown in in the last few days! As much as I detest the idea of a murderer walking free, an innocent man behind bars is a much slippier slope.

[the 12 th man]

Just been found guilty as charged.

[Lionel Ritchie]

...and leave to appeal DENIED

[mypost]

The verdict may have been as expected, but it's a surprise it was announced on a Saturday, as there is usually no courts sitting on weekends. :eek: What did him was the e-mail and phone evidence, frivolous as some of it was, what was relevant was very damning, and hard to defend.

The press will now have to go off and write on something else.

[onceahoop]

just heard he's been found guilty...

he'll get out after an appeal imo..no evidence there at all

Leave to appeal denied.

Circumstancial evidence which wasn't rebutted by the defence plus motive and defendent not taking the stand to explain discrepancies in his alibi was enough imo to find him guilty. You could say that it was the sum of all the parts that found him guilty.

[Raheny Red]

How long did he get?

[DmanDmythDledge]

How long did he get?
Mandatory life sentence.

[SligoBrewer]

15 yrs so..

[osarusan]

On what basis can a judge deny leave to appeal?

Doesnt it kind of defeat the purpose of having an appeals court if a judge has the power to deny it?

[Lionel Ritchie]

According to a law lecturer in Newstalk He can appeal on points of law but not on the substantive issues of evidence.

Just heard an ad on the radio for sundays Star ...the bottom feeders have hit the ground running with a feature (most likely written well before the verdict came in) whoring the whole thing 'round the cabaret circuit while it's a hot topic and stopping just short of a commemorative All-Ireland style 12 page pull out.

Despicably they also boast they'll be examining "what future now for the children?". :rolleyes: