Sale of Tolka

[John83]

God forgive any team having a bit of ambition. Shels took the risk to get to the CL, it backfired and they paid for it. It's their own doing but at least Ollie had the balls to do it.
Because financial recklessness is absolutely commendable in any club. :eek:

[superfrank]

The area is not for sale last time I checked! ;)

You'd need many more millions to get Home Farm to sell up!
I'm not familiar with property trends in North Dublin but it'd just seem easier for them.

When Belvedere (?) played us last year they'd just sold their ground for something like €4m.

[superfrank]

Because financial recklessness is absolutely commendable in any club. :eek:
If they'd pulled it off none of this would've happened. There's a fine line between success and failure.

[Stato]

thats why we had Pats, Shels and her majesties Bohemians all courting us this season? a three way reverse auction ensued which saw you all bid each other down?

clueless. :rolleyes:

Pats never approached nor were ever approached by Rovers to share Richmond Park this season.

[Dodge]

God forgive any team having a bit of ambition. Shels took the risk to get to the CL, it backfired and they paid for it. It's their own doing but at least Ollie had the balls to do it.



If they'd pulled it off none of this would've happened. There's a fine line between success and failure.

*Sigh* Don't you get it? Any team with ambition has a chance BUT the Shels "dream" was built on lies, cheats and a complete lack of reality, financial know how and, when it gets down to it, money!

Ollie (and nutsy) loved trotting out the old "begrudgers" line but the ****ing idiots wouldn't listen. If Ollie had've tried to build his core support up and then build up Shels income, and then legitimately pay for better players, he and Shels would have a right to have a proper crack at Europe.

But they didn't. They did it totally arseways and deserve every bit of scorn heaped on them.

[NY Hoop]

As opposed to what happened Shels? Rovers still sing about 4 in a row, most of them without even a hint of irony that it was paid for by Kilcoyne and he wanted his money back (He also spoke of doing something in Europe)

In fairness to Rovers they've got their act together big time but there's no way they could build that stadium on their own, so the SDCC really helped them out (and before anyone starts I've nothing against this and fair play to the SDCC and Rovers for showing a bit of imagination)

It is hugely ironic though that Rovers will firmly be in the driving seat when it comes to Tallaght and Shels will be begging to be allowed jump in as the junior partner.

All wrong.

So what if some Rovers fans sing 4 in a row (I never do). Lucifer made £980,000 from the sale of Milltown in 1988 which is a shedload more than he what he put in over the years. The fans paid for the floodlights.

Secondly we could have paid for the stadium in Tallaght. Other Rovers fans would have more precise details on that.

Shels in Tallaght is pie in the sky.

Isnt it hugely ironic that you cant buy a Pats jersey with all their money now??


KOH

[Dodge]

So what if some Rovers fans sing 4 in a row (I never do). Lucifer made £980,000 from the sale of Milltown in 1988 which is a shedload more than he what he put in over the years. The fans paid for the floodlights.
Nobody ever said that Kilcoyne didn't completely rip you off, but he did put money into the club and before he did Rovers were in the doldrums, with him at the helm you won that 4 in row. Its not just a co-incidence. IN NO WAY am I saying he was good for your club, far from it, I'm saying that its a bit rich of some of your support to gloat about that 4 ina row, when most of them know Kilcoyne's influence on Rovers then.


Secondly we could have paid for the stadium in Tallaght. Other Rovers fans would have more precise details on that.
Again who said you couldn't pay for it? I said "there's no way they could build that stadium on their own, so the SDCC really helped them out " which is obviously true. if you could've done it without the SDCC surely you would have?!?! I'm talking post Maguire here. The best deal available to Rovers was the SDCC and you, rightly, jumped at it.


n Tallaght is pie in the sky.No more so than Shels moving to anywhere else


hugely ironic that you cant buy a Pats jersey with all their money now??
Don't really understand irony, do you?

Poor form by my club though

[kdjaC]

Poor form by my club though

Nothing to do with pats why jersies or even a bleedin t shirt cant be bought, thankfully we have a new kit maker soon enough. One who might actually make a kit every now and then not just when they owed monies.



kdjac

[pineapple stu]

Anyone Shels fans know anything about the apparent stipulation with the Council that they can't sell Tolka unless they buy (not rent) a new ground? I've heard that a couple of times, which would rule out a move to Tallaght.

Also, I do find it ironic that Pat's fans are criticising Shels' overspending given that they're racking up losses of a million a year at this stage, and don't seem to have any qualms about being top of the league.

[John83]

Why would the council be interested? They don't own the freehold there, do they?

[kdjaC]

Also, I do find it ironic that Pat's fans are criticising Shels' overspending given that they're racking up losses of a million a year at this stage, and don't seem to have any qualms about being top of the league.

How can we "lose" money if its invested by our owner?


And how do you actually make money in the EL?

kdjac

[pineapple stu]

Why would the council be interested? They don't own the freehold there, do they?
Who else would?


How can we "lose" money if its invested by our owner?
Ask Drogheda or Rovers.



And how do you actually make money in the EL?

kdjac
There's a middle ground between losing a million and making money. It's called breaking even. Some clubs do manage to not lose a million a year.

[Student Mullet]

How can we "lose" money if its invested by our owner?By spending more than you earn. It's what the word 'loss' means in this context.

[kdjaC]

Pats didnt lose a million the previous board spent money on buying land and shares from people with a view to selling the club. So in the "loss profit" making world our old board made money back on the investments they put into the club. ie they got paid when special K bought them out.

They made money on an investment and well done they kept the club going over the years.



By spending more than you earn. It's what the word 'loss' means in this context.

No longer anyone but Gareth Kelleher who owns a lot of stuff and has plans to do things.

So we can criticise shels :p

kdjac

[pineapple stu]

Pats didnt lose a million the previous board spent money on buying land and shares from people with a view to selling the club. So in the "loss profit" making world our old board made money back on the investments they put into the club. ie they got paid when special K bought them out.
That makes no sense.

The club can't lose a million so the board can make money to reinvest in the club. This is for the same reason I can't spend a million on investments and have you make the money.

[kdjaC]

That makes no sense.

The club can't lose a million so the board can make money to reinvest in the club. This is for the same reason I can't spend a million on investments and have you make the money.

How? The old board couldnt sell the club unless they bought freeholds of the ground and shares from certain "fans"*. To obtain these they had to spend money about .5 million for 3 years coupled with the debt from previous regimes over about 5 years they lost 3ish million off their own money in order to gain full control of the ground and club and wipe out debts. Then they sold it for more than 3 million.

So investment and then cashing out. How does that not make sense?


* my arse they were.

kdjac

[pineapple stu]

I'm confused.

Are you now claiming the E1m loss was effectively the club buying the freehold on the ground?

That's a capital item and doesn't affect profit/loss. So my point still stands.

And my point on the investment also stands. If the club bought it, it must have sold it. If the board sold it, they must have bought it. You can't mix the two.

[kdjaC]

I'm confused.

Are you now claiming the E1m loss was effectively the club buying the freehold on the ground?

That's a capital item and doesn't affect profit/loss. So my point still stands.

And my point on the investment also stands. If the club bought it, it must have sold it. If the board sold it, they must have bought it. You can't mix the two.

Its a captial item that still needs to be bought :confused: And those figures are in the CRO as a loss. It makes perfect sense to me. Having all of our last regimes finances on record makes it handy to find out too. Shame the one before that wasnt as easily available.

The 3 board members used their own money via Newton Heath to buy freehold, to buy out shares, to pay players to basically run the club. Granted originally the plan a was to sell the ground and make money off that but Kelleher came along and bought a club which had the freehold to its own ground.

So how does losing a million to gain 2 not make sense? The % of profit would be about 100% or so which isnt bad.

kdjac

[pineapple stu]

Its a captial item that still needs to be bought.
Irrelevant. It wouldn't be appearing in the P&L as a loss; something else must have caused you to lose a million last year.


So how does losing a million to gain 2 not make sense? The % of profit would be about 100% or so which isnt bad.

kdjac
Where's the gain of 2m come from? Can't see where any money's going to come from unless you sell Richmond. The only transaction you previously mentioned was the directors spending about E3m to make more than E3m (you don't say how much more), and even then, that's the directors, and nothing to do with the club. Even if they put the money into the club to buy the ground, that still doesn't explain a million pound loss, as it's a capital item.

If they want to put that money into the club, fine, but it doesn't explain the Shels-size losses.

[kdjaC]

Irrelevant. It wouldn't be appearing in the P&L as a loss; something else must have caused you to lose a million last year.

Playing budget was 300k , tax bill was 200k, outstanding debts and freeholds were 500kish.



Can't see where any money's going to come from unless you sell Richmond. Even if they put the money into the club to buy the ground, that still doesn't explain a million pound loss, as it's a capital item.

The original plan was sell ground move out and be rich like Louis.



If they want to put that money into the club, fine, but it doesn't explain the Shels-size losses.

They did and got well paid for it when they sold it to Kelleher. To the tune of 100% profit on all monies invested.


kdjac

[Raheny Red]

Anyone Shels fans know anything about the apparent stipulation with the Council that they can't sell Tolka unless they buy (not rent) a new ground? I've heard that a couple of times, which would rule out a move to Tallaght.



At the last meeting between the BoM and the fans, it was said that DCC don't want another Rovers situation and they won't let us move out until we go to them with a lease which they deem suitable.

[pineapple stu]

Playing budget was 300k , tax bill was 200k, outstanding debts and freeholds were 500kish.
Outstanding debts - not a loss item.
Freeholds - not a loss item.
Tax bill - assuming it was old, not a loss item
Playing budget - should be covered by turnover.

You're confusing capital items and paying debts with making a loss. Let's give an example here -

(i) I have E3m in the bank. I buy a football ground for E3m. Am I now worth (a) E3m or (b) nothing? Answer - (a) obviously. I don't have the cash, but I have an asset of equal value. Therefore, I've made no loss.
(ii) I have no cash. I am given E3m by someone to buy a ground, which I do. I am still worth nothing, as I have an asset (the ground) and a liability (the person who gave me the money).
(iii) I have E700k in cash and owe the taxman E200, and have a mortgage of E500k. I use the cash to pay off both my debts. I am still worth nothing - I now have no cash and no liabilities.
(iv) I run a football club. Gate receipts, sponsorship, etc come to E1m. Players' wages, game expenses, etc come to E2m. I started the year with E1m in cash and no other assets or liabilities; I ended it with nothing. I am now E1m poorer, which means I have made E1m of a loss.

Buying a ground, paying off old debts, etc - none of that explains why you made a loss of E1m last year.




At the last meeting between the BoM and the fans, it was said that DCC don't want another Rovers situation and they won't let us move out until we go to them with a lease which they deem suitable.
Nearly missed that. Interesting. Maybe they've changed tack in the meantime. Makes things much easier (though far from easy) for Shels.

[blackholesun]

Rovers never owned Milltown, it was on a long term lease for a nominal rent as the jesuits considered it to be of benefit to the community. Louis got them to sell it by claiming he wanted to develop the ground but couldnt get grants etc unless the club owned the ground. He paid them about 20 years rent but they only ended up getting all their money years late after he sold it on for a huge profit.

btw I cant see how Shels have any other option at this stage than to go to talla.

bhs

[kdjaC]

Outstanding debts - not a loss item.
Freeholds - not a loss item.
Tax bill - assuming it was old, not a loss item
Playing budget - should be covered by turnover.

You're confusing capital items and paying debts with making a loss. Let's give an example here -



How? If you pay out its via the controlling company it shows as a loss even if it was for glass hammers. Newton heath spent money on obtaining things that were needed to ensure a 100% sale. So as the CRO shows its 1 million loss. CRO only shows what went in and out not on it was for.

So the 1 million loss which is shown by the CRO is basically the obtaining of "stuff". Everything went via Newton Heath bar one thing* so everything on the CRO would add up to what was spent by the board on running the club and gaining full control.


* the pub as it was bought via a different company.


kdjac

[kdjaC]

btw I cant see how Shels have any other option at this stage than to go to talla.

bhs

Richmond, we may not need them but if Kelleher feels this way
“We look forward to working with the Football Association. It is important they create the environment that will allow serious people with genuine ambition advance the domestic game in Ireland. Clubs cannot achieve great things on their own but with the right conditions more clubs will secure strong financial backing and the league in Ireland will prosper. “


If they did move in i wouldnt be surprised. As its the DCC and Pats need DCC to approve the plans for Richmond ie 10k stadium. Would make sense to have 2 clubs it ala genesis. May not happen but makes sense.

kdjac

[pete]

Moderator: Can we keeping this on topic as per thread title?

:o

[pineapple stu]

How? If you pay out its via the controlling company it shows as a loss even if it was for glass hammers. Newton heath spent money on obtaining things that were needed to ensure a 100% sale. So as the CRO shows its 1 million loss. CRO only shows what went in and out not on it was for.

So the 1 million loss which is shown by the CRO is basically the obtaining of "stuff". Everything went via Newton Heath bar one thing* so everything on the CRO would add up to what was spent by the board on running the club and gaining full control.


* the pub as it was bought via a different company.


kdjac
Without trying to be condescending here, you're talking to a qualified accountant. Buying freehold does not go into the P&L account. Paying off old debts does not go into the P&L account. Directors paying money to acquire a company does not go into the P&L account. Nothing you have mentioned (bar E300k running costs) goes into the P&L account, and therefore doesn't affect the fact that Pat's have run up a million pound loss last season. I've explained all this in my previous post with the four examples.

There's not much point debating this further until we can get that point straight.

Pete, you're some form of supermod, aren't you? Can you split the thread?

[Dodge]

Also, I do find it ironic that Pat's fans are criticising Shels' overspending given that they're racking up losses of a million a year at this stage

I've constantly had a go at our previous board for spending money they don't have.

[pineapple stu]

What about the current one?

[Dodge]

What about the current one?

They have the money. Been told today more of the details, and its far more promising than I thought. Not a bottomless pit but certainly an injection of cash has been made, and the promise of more to come.


Read our MB and see how many people have criticised the reports linking us with paynig €4k a week. Most are against it (bar the odd kid). I've foud out that the figure is totally false BTW

[BohsPartisan]

They have the money. Been told today more of the details, and its far more promising than I thought. Not a bottomless pit but certainly an injection of cash has been made, and the promise of more to come

Are you Drogheda in disguise? Are they Shels in Disguise? etc. etc.

Sounds like the stories Drogheda fans with "inside knowledge*" were telling me a couple of years ago.

*They believed what board members told them.

[Dodge]

*They believed what board members told them.


I know. Trust me, I'm one of the most cynical pats fans you'll ever meet but Kelleher is on another level when it comes to money. The main reason he got involved was to provide a full academy for the Pats underage sides (thats why he wanted Kerr to run it). It might look suss to outsiders but we'll see

[Boh_So_Good]

I know nobody will agree, but I think that Shels and Rovers should merge and form a new club. Both from the same part of the city, but need new direction. Both are broke and homeless. If they formed into a new distinctly Tallaght club with a strong local identity it might work for them. Would kill off the Thomas Davis "blow in's" spin for good. I do not buy the whole Shamrock Rovers brand anymore. It might have meant something years ago, but not now. If one looks objectively at the future. Bohs and Pats are looking at being the big clubs in Dublin. Where will this leave Rovers and Shels even if they do move to Tallaght. By pooling their resources into a new major club in Tallaght they have a chance to keep up. Right now both are has beens hoping looking for charity. That's hardly a good springboard for the future - certainly won't get the big money investors on board if you don't have a sugar daddy or assets like a city centre stadium to sell. How many years has Rovers been waiting for their sugar daddy and Shels name is muck in the corporate sector thanks to Oillie.

[OhNoYouDidn't]

I know nobody will agree, but I think that Shels and Rovers should merge and form a new club. Both from the same part of the city, but need new direction. Both are broke and homeless. If they formed into a new distinctly Tallaght club with a strong local identity it might work for them. Would kill off the Thomas Davis "blow in's" spin for good. I do not buy the whole Shamrock Rovers brand anymore. It might have meant something years ago, but not now. If one looks objectively at the future. Bohs and Pats are looking at being the big clubs in Dublin. Where will this leave Rovers and Shels even if they do move to Tallaght. By pooling their resources into a new major club in Tallaght they have a chance to keep up. Right now both are has beens hoping looking for charity. That's hardly a good springboard for the future - certainly won't get the big money investors on board if you don't have a sugar daddy or assets like a city centre stadium to sell. How many years has Rovers been waiting for their sugar daddy and Shels name is muck in the corporate sector thanks to Oillie.


Yawn.

[Midgit]

What if the FAI buy the ground and lease it back to Shels. Would that not be a great idea? If they have the money?!?!?!?!
Then the FAI wil have a huge asset and they can make Tolka park backinto the best eircom league ground and use it for underage internationals and the like.
If a contract is signed when shels sell it that they will have a lease on it for say 20-30 years meaning the FAI cannot go back on their word.

[Risteard]

I know nobody will agree, but I think that Shels and Rovers should merge and form a new club.
Drumrock Robourne.

Could have their own Welcome to Drumrock (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XflRKbiHrTo) chant that would be a hit with the rasta-loving kids of the Tallaght ghettos.

[Bald Student]

They have the money. Been told today more of the details, and its far more promising than I thought. Not a bottomless pit but certainly an injection of cash has been made, and the promise of more to come.Do you mind if I ask how the cash injection is being treated in the books? Is it share capital, a loan, sponsorship or something else?

[Boh_So_Good]

Drumrock Robourne.

Could have their own Welcome to Drumrock (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XflRKbiHrTo) chant that would be a hit with the rasta-loving kids of the Tallaght ghettos.

I was thinking more along the lines of Tallaght P45 or Wheatfield Youths.

[A face]

Is this the ultimate price being paid by Shels? They are selling their ground with no other options on the horizon. Whatever about going down to the first div. and losing all their players but this has to be the single worst thing to happen to them in the last few years.

This has to be a serious lesson to all other clubs, text book 'how not to do it' case imo.

[Dodge]

Do you mind if I ask how the cash injection is being treated in the books? Is it share capital, a loan, sponsorship or something else?

No idea. Haven't looked at them since the new people took over

[Dr.Nightdub]

OK, speaking as a non-accountant here, we lost a million, 36 grand and some change last year. That was covered by share issues and directors' loans. Nice one, Andy and Gerry M.

We also bought freeholds on and around Richmond, to the value of almost €400k. Considering what we had before that was worth €1.1m, that's a lot of expansion. That €400k was covered partly by the sale of a car (we're from Dublin and we drive flashier cars than you :D) but mainly by share issues and directors' loans. Nice one Andy and Gerry M.

At the start of Feb, a rickeyload of directors' loans was converted into shares. Later in Feb, along came Special K and bought out all the existing shares. If my maths are right, the shareholders made a bit under 10% return on their investment. Nice for Andy and Gerry M and the others.

Stu, you've got to accept that Special K's arrival changes everything.

If he wasn't on the scene, I'd agree with you, that even to my non-accountant understanding, trading in such a way as to lose over a million quid a year would count as trading recklessly. Reckless cos even though it's backed by a handy asset i.e. Richmond, we don't want to have a bank call in the asset we all love. In other words, the kind of recklessness the Dolan-era regime got up to cos they wanted glory without prudence and the kind of recklessness the more recent regime got up to cos it was trying to manoeuvre us into having to leave Richmond.

However unless, as an accountant, you have some moral problem with directors injecting vast wads of money into a company to provide it with income, then it's OK to run a trading loss of a million a year providing you've funds to cover it. Given that Special K is on record as having paid €45k for a glorified coal bucket (OK, Georgian antique, but still a bleedin' coal bucket), then I think it's fair to say he has vast wads of cash.

As far as I'm concerned, he can call it a director's loan, he can call it a charitable donation from the Garret Kelleher Foundation for the Advancement of St. Pats, he can call it whatever the hell he wants that's legal once we get the use of it. I accept that a liability arises as a result but from all his public pronouncements since Feb up to and including today, and his refusal to even come play ball with us unless Brian Kerr was involved for a significant period of time, I don't think he's gonna send in the repo men any time soon.

[Dr.Nightdub]

Do you mind if I ask how the cash injection is being treated in the books? Is it share capital, a loan, sponsorship or something else?

Honestly can't tell at the moment - Pats' financial year ends every 30th Nov so the last CRO-filed books were pre-Special K.

[SkStu]

This has to be a serious lesson to all other clubs, text book 'how not to do it' case imo.

exactly A Face.

I cant believe that one of the earlier posts on this thread said that it was better to have tried and failed than to not have tried at all... theres trying and failing and theres "doing a shels"!

I hope and i have a feeling that things are gonna work out pretty well for St. Pats.

[CollegeTillIDie]

Bohs future has been secured because a sugar daddy wants to buy Dalymount and build a new stadium on a greenfield site.
St. Pat's future appears secure thanks to Special K as you guys are calling him
Shamrock Rovers have been saved from oblivion by their own fans and are waiting for the all clear to move into Tallaght.
Shelbourne's is up in the air, thanks to the overspending of the previous regime and the uncertainty over their eventual location post-Tolka.

which leaves the best run club in the Premier Division last season UCD.
The only Dublin club that lived within it's budget CONSISTENTLY :D

[NY Hoop]

Nobody ever said that Kilcoyne didn't completely rip you off, but he did put money into the club and before he did Rovers were in the doldrums, with him at the helm you won that 4 in row. Its not just a co-incidence. IN NO WAY am I saying he was good for your club, far from it, I'm saying that its a bit rich of some of your support to gloat about that 4 ina row, when most of them know Kilcoyne's influence on Rovers then.


Again who said you couldn't pay for it? I said "there's no way they could build that stadium on their own, so the SDCC really helped them out " which is obviously true. if you could've done it without the SDCC surely you would have?!?! I'm talking post Maguire here. The best deal available to Rovers was the SDCC and you, rightly, jumped at it.

No more so than Shels moving to anywhere else


Don't really understand irony, do you?

Poor form by my club though

I'll bow to your superior knowledge when you stop spreading pub talk.

Back on topic tolka unlike the Milltown, Dalier and Richmond will be no loss when gone. Soulless, characterless pit.


KOH

[BohsPartisan]

which leaves the best run club in the Premier Division last season UCD.
The only Dublin club that lived within it's budget CONSISTENTLY :D

Propped up by my Tax Euro's ye spongers! :mad:
:D

[Jerry The Saint]

I know nobody will agree, but I think that Shels and Rovers should merge and form a new club.

I agree!:)

[Dodge]

Back on topic tolka unlike the Milltown, Dalier and Richmond will be no loss when gone. Soulless, characterless pit.

Agree 100%

[sfc red]

Which obviously you would say since you're not a Shels fan. Richmond Park and character hardly go hand in hand

[Dodge]

I don't know one fan who doesn't think Richmond Park is a proper football ground with charachter. its not fancy but it has something Tolka will never have.

Other grounds like this include United Park, The Showgrounds, St Mels, Dalymount