FF & Green Party in Government

[GavinZac]

If a party loses 75% of it's seats, then that's clearly a message from the electorate:

"We don't want you in government".

No, its not.

Its a clear message from the consituencies that they lost, that they'd prefer someone else. Its a clear message from the constituencies they did win a seat in, that they would like them in goverment. and on a national scale, by voting for fianna fail you are at least voting for the possibility of putting the PDs back in power - and more people voted fianna fail/pd than any other party. THAT is a clear message. ce sera. if you want an either/or election, wait for the presidential one.

[OneRedArmy]

you're against EU farmer subsidies then? :DAs it happens yes, but mostly against the practice of independents with no national policy interests being bought of by pork barrel-type political agreements in the interests of forming a Government.

[Lionel Ritchie]

Can you blame the electorate when they put them as 17th preference, yet they still hold this much influence?

Personally, I feel anything below 16th preference should insinuate that perhaps they're not the desired party in Government. Maybe that's just me..

Only in Ireland..we should throttle the guy who invented coalition politics once and for all.

Who pray tell are you talking about exactly dfx? Is it the Greens? Is it the single transferable vote system itself you don't like or that some party you dislike is benefiting from it?

Are you as uncomfortable about Cyprian Brady getting a first preference vote that a candidate from the Natural Law Party, Republican Sinn Fein, Immigration Control Platform, Christian Solidarity or the Monster Raving Loony Party wouldn't be bragging about? I find it odious -but heh it's the system ...and that FF will sh1t on their own to get him in is their business.


Or a party that loses 75% of it's seats, and it's party leader. Is that a party that should tell us what to do? What Gav said. Plus -they're a small party. Only about 15,000 less people voted 1st pref for them this time than in 2002 -that's about a 20% drop in their 1st pref vote. That it lost them 6 seats tells you only how tight the margins are for smaller partys.

[dahamsta]

Apparently Boyle just came out of Government Buildings and said they've agreed a deal.

[OneRedArmy]

Apparently Boyle just came out of Government Buildings and said they've agreed a deal.
When does my free folding bike arrive?:D

[Risteard]

I think he's been misquoted.

[dahamsta]

I read it on Twitter, it has to be true. But of course it isn't.


http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhkfeyqlkfgb/

Dan Boyle has denied earlier media reports that a deal has been done between Fianna Fáil and the Green Party of the formation of a government.Well done IrishElection.com. :rolleyes:

[Sheridan]

Seems like a matter of time now. Does anyone know what Dan Boyle's background is? I'm instantly suspicious of anyone with an American twinge to their accent and an opinion on economics. I checked out his website, and beneath a banner depicting some inspirationally bleak bogland, his diary has him down for a January meeting with "Irish Suctioneers and Valuers." I'm glad I'm not a suctioneer.

[dfx-]

I think you two are just guilty of buying into the FF propaganda "that it was all the nasty wasty PD's and we're really a centre left party".

I don't mind whether FF or FG are left, right, centre or off centre. I want a simple Government - FF or otherwise - that is reflected by a strong desire in the polls and no low preference votes. As you say, the electorate refuse to do this and ends up in a fragmented Dáil and results in fudged together Governments between opposites. It is a farcical situation.

Granted the electorate shouldn't give low preferences, but the next failsafe against that - the system - then allows for low preferences to count for far more than they should.

[dfx-]

Who pray tell are you talking about exactly dfx? Is it the Greens? Is it the single transferable vote system itself you don't like or that some party you dislike is benefiting from it?

Are you as uncomfortable about Cyprian Brady getting a first preference vote that a candidate from the Natural Law Party, Republican Sinn Fein, Immigration Control Platform, Christian Solidarity or the Monster Raving Loony Party wouldn't be bragging about? I find it odious -but heh it's the system ...and that FF will sh1t on their own to get him in is their business.

It is the system and the electorate as outlined by Macy I don't like. FF and the Greens are opposites trying to fudge together a Government.

I want us to vote in a simple Government that doesn't take weeks to bargain and buy off opposites like FF and the Greens. I don't care if that Government is of parties that I didn't vote for. If Republican Sinn Fein poll strongly or the Monster Raving Loony Party ever do very well, then fine, let them into Government. However if any one party get poor preferences, they shouldn't be let anywhere near Government. It should be simple - let the most desired party rule...but our system allows for lesser desired parties to rule too...

I do not like the influence garnered by low preference votes whether they be the Greens or not.

[Lionel Ritchie]

I don't mind whether FF or FG are left, right, centre or off centre. I want a simple Government - FF or otherwise - that is reflected by a strong desire in the polls and no low preference votes. As you say, the electorate refuse to do this and ends up in a fragmented Dáil and results in fudged together Governments between opposites. It is a farcical situation.

Granted the electorate shouldn't give low preferences, but the next failsafe against that - the system - then allows for low preferences to count for far more than they should.

Another way of seeing your highlighted text is that it gives balanced government reflecting a diverse and broad cross section of opinion which may possibly incorporate the best and brightest each grouping has to offer.

Oh ...and where ethics of party A will at least be policed by the self-interests of party B.

[Lionel Ritchie]

It is the system and the electorate as outlined by Macy I don't like. FF and the Greens are opposites trying to fudge together a Government.

I want us to vote in a simple Government that doesn't take weeks to bargain and buy off opposites like FF and the Greens. I don't care if that Government is of parties that I didn't vote for. If Republican Sinn Fein poll strongly or the Monster Raving Loony Party ever do very well, then fine, let them into Government. However if any one party get poor preferences, they shouldn't be let anywhere near Government. It should be simple - let the most desired party rule...but our system allows for lesser desired parties to rule too...

I do not like the influence garnered by low preference votes whether they be the Greens or not.

You seem to be argueing for UK style first past the post. A system which, if introduced here, will probably mean Fianna Fail in power in perpetuity ...making them even more attractive to white collar gangsters on the make than they have been historically. How that's supposed to benefit the people of this country I don't know.

[dfx-]

Another way of seeing your highlighted text is that it gives balanced government reflecting a diverse and broad cross section of opinion which may possibly incorporate the best and brightest each grouping has to offer.


It depends on whether the glass is half-full I suppose. Coalition can interact with each other, but when you have a clash like the Greens and FF I can only see constant arguments and policy changes..coalitions bring about 'the national interest'. When two parties are opposites they'll have to compromise on a fair few of the policies perhaps affecting the reasons why they were popular in the first place.

That we can't trust one party to run the country for corruption fears says more about the country than anyone could.

[Ringo]

Green Party and FF seal deal, bar leaders' signatures

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhkfeyqlaumh/rss2/

[pete]

Theres one thing doing a deal for government but with 2/3 majority needed among Green members will it voted through?

I can't wait to see what the Greens in particular compromised on...

[RogerMilla]

perhaps we can change the thread title ???

[dahamsta]

Seems like a matter of time now. Does anyone know what Dan Boyle's background is? I'm instantly suspicious of anyone with an American twinge to their accent and an opinion on economics. I checked out his website, and beneath a banner depicting some inspirationally bleak bogland, his diary has him down for a January meeting with "Irish Suctioneers and Valuers." I'm glad I'm not a suctioneer.Dan Boyle is the type that objects to policies without offering alternatives, and he just lost his seat in Cork. That answer your question?

adam

[pete]

I thought Dan Boyle used to be a lecturer in CIT but his mycandidate.ie page says he was a former Community Youth Worker. Maybe I just linked Bishoipstown to the CIT. Hard to see in his background where he got his financial expertise but if Bertie is an Accountant... ;)

[onceahoop]

Seems like a matter of time now. Does anyone know what Dan Boyle's background is? I'm instantly suspicious of anyone with an American twinge to their accent and an opinion on economics. I checked out his website, and beneath a banner depicting some inspirationally bleak bogland, his diary has him down for a January meeting with "Irish Suctioneers and Valuers." I'm glad I'm not a suctioneer.

His family have a Fianna Fail backgound, so maybe that explains his enthusiasm for coalition with the Soldiers of Destiny. What happens if this coalition takes place. Will all motorway construction stop immediately seeing as most commentators think the tree huggers will get the Environment portfolio and their policy is anti motorway.

Labour and Bertie have been very quiet during all these negotiations!!!!!.

Can't believe Fiannan Fail will go into coalition with a party whose policies would seem the anthithesis to a lot of their own policies. Can't believe the Green grassroots (pun) would encourage it to grow either.

[Risteard]

Draft programme for government agreed but not announced.
Will go to a vote of Green Party members tomorrow.

Probably only members in the Greater Dublin area available to attend.

[mypost]

Its a clear message from the consituencies that they lost, that they'd prefer someone else. Its a clear message from the constituencies they did win a seat in, that they would like them in goverment.

A few thousand voters voted for 2 PD TD's, neither on first count. FF got 41% of the vote, do the maths. A party that loses so many seats as they did, are not in a position to govern the country.

[Macy]

A few thousand voters voted for 2 PD TD's, neither on first count. FF got 41% of the vote, do the maths. A party that loses so many seats as they did, are not in a position to govern the country.
Except for the fact that a vote for FF was always a vote for the PD's, as they're essentially one and the same. I've no doubt that Bertie would've tried to keep the PD's on board even if it was a Labour coalition - doubt Labour would've bent so far over the desk as the greens have though...

[Ringo]

A few thousand voters voted for 2 PD TD's, neither on first count. FF got 41% of the vote, do the maths. A party that loses so many seats as they did, are not in a position to govern the country.

And FG with 27% are:rolleyes:. if you use your logic 73% of voters did not want FG

[Lionel Ritchie]

And FG with 27% are:rolleyes:. if you use your logic 73% of voters did not want FG

...and Fianna Fail have no mandate to govern with 59% against them.;)

[Ringo]

Yes the people have spoken. Their elected representatives will have to go before them & justify their stance. A smart move by Bertie , making sure the Greens will find it hard to be part of a rainbow at the next election.

[OneRedArmy]

Can't believe Fiannan Fail will go into coalition with a party whose policies would seem the anthithesis to a lot of their own policies. Can't believe the Green grassroots (pun) would encourage it to grow either.Politics isn't about absolutes. The Green Party took a decision that they could achieve more of their policy objectives in Government than not and as for Fianna Fail, everyone knows they would jump into bed with anyone to get the numbers.

Labour would have been equally difficult to swallow for FF based purely on policies.

[BohsPartisan]

Labour would have been equally difficult to swallow for FF based purely on policies.

What policies? Labour are only Fine Gael light and FG are only a slightly less dirty version of FF. The Greens are about to enter that parlour for a few crumbs.

[mypost]

And FG with 27% are:rolleyes:. if you use your logic 73% of voters did not want FG

The logic is the Greens held onto their seats in the election. The PD's lost theirs, i.e. the Greens are in a better position than the PD's to rule the country as of now.

[OneRedArmy]

What policies? Labour are only Fine Gael light and FG are only a slightly less dirty version of FF. The Greens are about to enter that parlour for a few crumbs.Given you support of what is generally considered, in todays Ireland, as extremist politics I can understand your view that they are all shades of the same colour.

However given the list of viable options, having the Greens in Government, with whatever influence they have, is at least worth a shot. Another 5 years off FF/PD plus a few mercenary independents with no interest in national issues was something to be avoided.

Time will tell what the Greens influence is, and they may fail miserably to exert influence, but at least they are trying advance their agenda.

[Macy]

Crossroads time for the Labour party, doubtful that they can regroup and go back to their roots enough, but at least they'll have that chance in opposition.

Greens can either deliver or they're fooked. They will be held up for scrutiny and attack from the opposition for the next 5 years as opposed to the cosy relationship they enjoyed up to the last election. Most Greens were essentially elected on Rainbow transfers, (Cuffe for example only over took Boyd-Barrett on FG transfers) something they won't have to the same extent next time.

There would also be a view that they, like the Labour Party to some extent, suffered at the last election as people couldn't trust them not to go in with FF - and ultimately people who didn't were right. Hence the Andrew Doyle FG gain as opposed to De Burca or Kelly in Wicklow for example.

[BohsPartisan]

However given the list of viable options, having the Greens in Government, with whatever influence they have, is at least worth a shot. Another 5 years off FF/PD plus a few mercenary independents with no interest in national issues was something to be avoided.


But such an approach is short sighted. In the long term it will see a fall off in support for the greens and a blow to their movement. Look what happened to the Labour Party through its constant participation in coalitions. If Labour had stayed out of coalitions, stuck to its original principals and built a real grass roots organisation it would now be a far bigger and influential force than it is now. Capitulation after capitulation has lead to the death of the Labour Party as an independant force and it will do the same to the Greens.

[OneRedArmy]

But such an approach is short sighted. In the long term it will see a fall off in support for the greens and a blow to their movement. Look what happened to the Labour Party through its constant participation in coalitions. If Labour had stayed out of coalitions, stuck to its original principals and built a real grass roots organisation it would now be a far bigger and influential force than it is now. Capitulation after capitulation has lead to the death of the Labour Party as an independant force and it will do the same to the Greens.
If the Greens fail to exert any real influence then what you and Macy have said is absolutely right, they will be decimated at the next election (similar to the PDs).

The other side of that coin is that if they turned down a chance at Government they would be in danger of being a perpetual party of opposition, which may also impact negatively on their vote going forward.

Make no mistake, this is definately a fork in the road for the Greens with a significant potential downside, but fair play to them for giving it a lash. I don't envy the challenge they have in trying to exert a meaningful impact on FF policy over the next term.

But its very easy to spend your whole political life on the opposition benches sniping and poking holes, without actually having the responsibility of Government.

[Macy]

I don't envy the challenge they have in trying to exert a meaningful impact on FF policy over the next term.
If, and I appreciate it is a big "if" at this stage, the Irish Times is right what influence will they have? Only person that knows what Ministry they'll be getting is Harney who'll be back in Health, with co-location now certain despite the Green opposition to it.

[Lionel Ritchie]

Given you support of what is generally considered, in todays Ireland, as extremist politics I can understand your view that they are all shades of the same colour.

However given the list of viable options, having the Greens in Government, with whatever influence they have, is at least worth a shot. Another 5 years off FF/PD plus a few mercenary independents with no interest in national issues was something to be avoided.

Time will tell what the Greens influence is, and they may fail miserably to exert influence, but at least they are trying advance their agenda.

If they can make their numbers and influence count to the same level the Progressive Democrats have done over the last 10 years they'll have made an impact and I daresay it'll be a better country for it.

[OneRedArmy]

If they can make their numbers and influence count to the same level the Progressive Democrats have done over the last 10 years they'll have made an impact and I daresay it'll be a better country for it.Agreed, thats the hope, but PDs had Health and Justice, two ministeries with a lot of clout.

[Risteard]

If the Irish Times is close to correct, I'll be shocked if the motion is approved.
Then again, I often seem to be shocked by politicians willingness to go with the flow while everyone asks me 'What did you expect?'

[BohsPartisan]

If they can make their numbers and influence count to the same level the Progressive Democrats have done over the last 10 years they'll have made an impact and I daresay it'll be a better country for it.

I think the PD influence was greatly exaggerated. The PD's policies are nothing but an honest representation of what FF really stand for. Having the PD's there gave FF someone to scapegoat for the worst aspects of the governments neo liberal agenda. Likewise, in a time of economic uncertainty, the Greens if they go into power will be fingered for the blame by "the most cunning and devious of them all".
As for them becoming a party of perpetual opposition, only if they restrict themselves to parliamentary cretinism I.E. standing for election every 5 years and not realising that you can achieve a lot outside of the dail with a dedicated network of activists behind you. If a real opposition to neo-liberalism emerges in this country, it will first emerge on the streets and only later be reflected in the normal realm of politics.

[Macy]

If they can make their numbers and influence count to the same level the Progressive Democrats have done over the last 10 years they'll have made an impact and I daresay it'll be a better country for it.
But, to echo BohsPartisan, and my earlier comments in this thread, that's only if you believe that the PD agenda was different to the FF one. If FF objected, these things would've been off the agenda. Bertie has always packed his cabinets with the right from within FF, such as McCreevy, Cullen, Brennan, Roche. It's a myth to suggest that FF is somehow left of centre - only their party activists really believe that at this stage surely?

[WeAreRovers]

I think the PD influence was greatly exaggerated. The PD's policies are nothing but an honest representation of what FF really stand for.

Undoubtedly the PD's are/were a handy scapegoat for FF but to say that their "policies are nothing but an honest representation of what FF really stand for" is not strictly true. FF is a massive catch-all party that has as many social democrats as free-marketeers in its ranks.

Hence a lot of the backbench unease about PD policy and the whole Sean Healy love-in a few years back. In fact many in FF are rightly proud of the socially-responsible work of the likes of Sean Lemass and see it as the true heritage of the party.

BTW - BP, I've done my utmost not to gloat at the kicking the electorate gave the Trots. But.... :p

BTW 2 - Got to love the irony of the Greens (possibly) going into government on the day the Ikea store gets PP. :D

KOH

[pete]

I can't remember if it was in the Indo or the IT today but they listed what they thought the deal included.

- Committment to Carbon taxes within the next 5 years but no delays of what or when.
- No change on M3
- No change on Shannon
- 50m extra for Education
- Transport 21 to stay as it is. Extra funding for Public Transport outside of the plan.
- Reduction in top rate of tax as per FF manifesto to stay subject to economic conditions.

If this is the deal what exactly have the Greens got? :confused:

[Lionel Ritchie]

But, to echo BohsPartisan, and my earlier comments in this thread, that's only if you believe that the PD agenda was different to the FF one. If FF objected, these things would've been off the agenda. Bertie has always packed his cabinets with the right from within FF, such as McCreevy, Cullen, Brennan, Roche. It's a myth to suggest that FF is somehow left of centre - only their party activists really believe that at this stage surely?

We agree on much. I don't believe the FF agenda has been much different to the PD one at all ...but the rise of many of the individuals you mention has been part of a response by FF to the emergence and continued existence of the PDs. They have indeed stacked their front benches with their own right wing which in itself acts as a bullwark against the PDs making inroads to FFs Liberal-Right constituency.

I recall hearing Brian Lenihan Snr. back in 1990 describing Fianna Fail as a "party of the near left" and frankly belly laughing at such a preposterous notion. In most respects they are the Irish equivalent of the Tories without having the balls to come out and say it.

In so far as FF has any Left Wing they tend to be stifled from emerging if they make it as far as the Dail at all ...and the ones further down the line at local council level are bigger eejits for not just walking away.

[Lionel Ritchie]

I can't remember if it was in the Indo or the IT today but they listed what they thought the deal included.

- Committment to Carbon taxes within the next 5 years but no delays of what or when.
- No change on M3
- No change on Shannon
- 50m extra for Education
- Transport 21 to stay as it is. Extra funding for Public Transport outside of the plan.
- Reduction in top rate of tax as per FF manifesto to stay subject to economic conditions.

If this is the deal what exactly have the Greens got? :confused:

If this is the deal there's nothing in it.
Carbon taxes one is a fudge. Nothing in it.

M3 was very minimum I'd have expected.

Shannon -didn't expect too much there

"extra funding for public transport" ...that could just mean fair increases.

50m "extra" for education is jack****. FF can move the pieces round on the board and trot that woman with the pigs hole on her head out to proclaim everthings brill-int in Irish schools.

Glad to see people on the top rate getting a break ...sure they're the ones who really need it:rolleyes:

Nothing on corporate donations either.

[NeilMcD]

What the big hoo haa over the M3, I hope they have much bigger impact other than that on real issues that effect peoples lives.


Because of the mad voting system we use, no.
Best system in the world.

[BohsPartisan]

What the big hoo haa over the M3, I hope they have much bigger impact other than that on real issues that effect peoples lives.

I consider destroying a national monument something that effects people's lives. Indirectly mostly but still does. They could have build a railroad at less cost than the M3 will cost.


BTW - BP, I've done my utmost not to gloat at the kicking the electorate gave the Trots. But.... :p
Feel free to gloat, its water off a duck's back. I wouldn't exactly call it a kicking by the electorate anyway. Joe was a victim of Gerrymandering and Clare was a victim of people voting to keep Fine Gael out (not to mention a dodgy recount). We still have the same strong areas of support as before and though the Dail seat is a huge loss to us it doesn't effect us in the same way as the PD's were effected by their kicking as electoralism is only one aspect of our politics.

[jebus]

What the big hoo haa over the M3, I hope they have much bigger impact other than that on real issues that effect peoples lives.

Somebody pass this guy a history book and a soul

[Lionel Ritchie]

Somebody pass this guy a history book and a soul

Indeed. When the Taliban blew the sh1t out of irreplacable Buddhist monuments in their own back yard the world was rightly disgusted at the scummy fcuks disregard for their own heritage.

But if it's here and for money it's grand sure.

[Bald Student]

Greens can either deliver or they're fooked.That's it exactly. If they can get a job done in government they'll do well. If they can't then there's no point in having them at all.
I don't agree with the talk of growing your party in opposition for a few decades. They're there to get stuff done and they're either up to the job or not.

[NeilMcD]

Somebody pass this guy a history book and a soul

I know far more about this than you think, and the newroad is actually further away from the Hill than the current road. To say its going to destory the Hill of Tara is an way OTT. Will it have an impact on the aesthetics of the area, yes it will. Also I agree with Bohs, that the railroad would be far better but to be honest they should probably build both with the rail as a priority.

[monutdfc]

the newroad is actually further away from the Hill than the current road. To say its going to destory the Hill of Tara is an way OTT.
Sorry, but that is FF and NRA spin. Whilst true that the new Motorway will be further away than the current road, the Tara-Skryne Valley and areas of archaelogical interest are much, much more than just the hill, plus there's a huge difference between a single carriageway that follows the topographical contours and a motorway including an intersection.

Why can they not just re-route it the other side of the hill? It will be built quicker that way, even now. (Actually my guess at an answer to my own question is because developers have been busy acquiring land along the current proposed route )

[pineapple stu]

Reported on politics.ie that Trevor Sergeant has resigned as leader of the Greens, following on from a comment years back that he'd sooner resign than enter into Government with Fianna Fáil. If only John Delaney had acted on his word as well...

There are the usual caveats after that that it's only rumoured, and he's only said he will stand down, etc, so it appears nothing's happened as yet, but something to keep an eye on.

The notion that the Greens - or any party - should try to grow in opposition for a few decades until (presumably) they can take over themselves is nonsense. It's like a club saying they'll settle for fourth in the league each year because they don't want to embarrass themselves in Europe and take a step backwards. The only issue with the Greens, I would imagine, is not whether they want to go into Government or not, but whether it's the right deal and the right partner party.