Election 2007: Prime Time Leaders Debate

[pete]

On now on RTE 1.


Started off with some waffle about the economy.
Bertie asked about the recent financial issues, Enda forced to discuss but could see he did not want to get into....

[Matchman]

Kenny struggling a bit on health

[pete]

Numbers, numbers... its all dutch to me... :confused:

[jebus]

Bertie is losing this one from my point of view. Kenny is actually laying out figures, talking about what he will do and is bringing in people he has met when electioneering. Bertie is on the defensive on every case, and hasn't laid out anything specific

[pete]

I wasn't glued to the tv as really just had it on the background but was boring.

Bertie was trying to trip up Enda on figures & as you say Enda replied with stories from ordinary people on the canvass. Its not like Bertie could challenge them. The one good thing Kenny did was ease of on "de contract" as hes been pushing that too much lately.

I would think a draw which all Kenny needed. He was never going to delivery a knockout blow & just needed no show he could be a leader by matching Bertie.

[jebus]

Agreed, I was hoping he wouldn't harp on about that contract too much, but Bertiie hell into the age old trap of when losing a discussion just raise your voice above your opponant and try to put words in his mouth, I should know I do it all the time! :p

[Schumi]

Watched a bit of it but the two of them continually talking at the same time was too annoying. Miriam O'Callaghan should have told one of them to shut up!

[Poor Student]

O'Callaghan wasted too much time on the Bertie finance stuff, particularly given the fact that Enda Kenny wasn't going to comment on it. The costing arguments are real head wrecking stuff, they're free to bat about any figures and most of us really don't know any better. Is it just me or did the debate boil down to Kenny saying he wanted to do the same things but he has the greater political will? Also, his insistence that he'll not seek relection if his contract points are not met echoes very much of John Delaney and the Genesis Report.:o

[pete]

O'Callaghan wasted too much time on the Bertie finance stuff, particularly given the fact that Enda Kenny wasn't going to comment on it.

I agree with that. She forced Bertie & Enda to comment on when neither wanted to talk about.

I think the debate showed how similar their policies really are. Voters will just decide whether FF have more experience of implementing or new coalition deserve a chance to implement their promises.

[jebus]

Ah I don't know, Kenny has made such a big deal of this contract that there will be no way he can stay in office if he hasn't reached his targets in five years, thats why FG are getting my vote

[galwayhoop]

i thought enda kenny looked a bit rattled on his justice spokesman's comments. i think that bertie showed much more leadership ability (bullying maybe??) than kenny but maybe thats just experience.

all in all i don't think that anything enda kenny is saying represents the major change that the people say they are looking for. the fact that people are majorly for this so-called change is beyond me anyhow as i reckon we have a larger potential fall than potential improvement.

[galwayhoop]

Ah I don't know, Kenny has made such a big deal of this contract that there will be no way he can stay in offica if he hasn't reached his targets in five years, thats why FG are getting my vote

are you saying that you are voting for them because they are saying they won't welch on their promises???? surely a politician could never do such a thing :D

[jebus]

are you saying that you are voting for them because they are saying they won't welch on their promises???? surely a politician could never do such a thing :D

Jesus you lot should be happy considering Kenny brought up Galway's Third World water supply.

Actually I was surprsied that the nurses strike, Galway's water supply, Rossport and other media friendly issues weren't touched on more

[Poor Student]

Ah I don't know, Kenny has made such a big deal of this contract that there will be no way he can stay in office if he hasn't reached his targets in five years, thats why FG are getting my vote

Is that sarcasm?:confused: I was sitting there thinking "Hmmm, so how many will be seduced by this contract rhetoric?".

Pete, they're essentially differentiated by their choice of coalition partner. PDs will drag FF to the right, Labour/Greens will drag FG to the left, granted not too far.

Why did Bertie Ahern keep emphasising that babies born this year would not benefit from the free health care for under 5s? That seemed an utterly irrelevant point. I don't know if Kenny can implement it or not but under Ahern they won't have it this year, the next etc. Seemed like total sophistry.

[jebus]

Is that sarcasm?:confused: I was sitting there thinking "Hmmm, so how many will be seduced by this contract rhetoric?".


Not at all, I generally don't want FG or FF, but given that FF haven't been held accountable for their many, many failings I would prefer a FG government that openly say they will be held accountable for their mistakes or failings

[hoops1]

Ahearne won the deabte with a bit to spare
Kenny didnt seem to have anything different to bring than what the present government are already doing.
The FG Justice spokesman agreeing that overall serious crime was down worked against him and the fact he was against Thornton hall. Bertie seemed to turn that part of the debate around when Kenny should have really rammed home the broken pledge on Gardai numbers not being met on time.
And Saying they wanted to 2000 extra gardai and only had the finances for 1000.
Did Enda slam his glass down at one stage?
Kenny couldnt really argue on the economy and seem to trip himself up once or twice on figures regarding health

[BohsPartisan]

Ah I don't know, Kenny has made such a big deal of this contract that there will be no way he can stay in office if he hasn't reached his targets in five years, thats why FG are getting my vote
Oh the innocence of youth.
Politicians can make whatever promises they want, turn around and break them and still get people to vote for them. They have been doing it for years. FG are in power on countless local authorities. Their approach to planning is no different to Fianna Fail. Why do you think no FG/Lab coalition ever gets more than one term in office? Simple, its because people vote them in, and every time they turn out just the same and people go, oh yeah, I forgot thats what they do and vote them out next time around. I gaurantee you will be dissapointed with the "alternative" if it gets a chance to take the reigns of power.



I think the debate showed how similar their policies really are. Voters will just decide whether FF have more experience of implementing or new coalition deserve a chance to implement their promises.
EXACTLY!

(Is that twice this year we've agreed on something? :eek: )

[Poor Student]

Not at all, I generally don't want FG or FF, but given that FF haven't been held accountable for their many, many failings I would prefer a FG government that openly say they will be held accountable for their mistakes or failings

Jebus, it's empty rhetoric.

[galwayhoop]

Jesus you lot should be happy considering Kenny brought up Galway's Third World water supply.

Actually I was surprsied that the nurses strike, Galway's water supply, Rossport and other media friendly issues weren't touched on more

i reckon the water saga is more to do with the county coucil than the government and sure at least we know the water is sh1te while most of the rest of the country THINK theirs is fine. i would rather have a strong economy than drinkable water straight from the tap anyway.

i seriously feel for the economy with a FG/Labour/Greens government. I reckon the reduction in infrastructure spending would be fairly instant and the knock on would be felt throughout. thats why i will vote for the status quo (well FF anyway) even with their faults i think we know what we are and are not getting!

[holidaysong]

Was pretty boring, the one last night was far better!

[jebus]

Jesus I realise they could turn around and forget about their contract, but the fact that they are harping on about it makes me think that the Irish public will hold them accountable if they don't deliver

And as a former Tony Blair supporter I realise how much a man can fool us, I'm just saying if given the choice between FG and FF I'm voting FG

[BohsPartisan]

Jesus I realise they could turn around and forget about their contract, but the fact that they are harping on about it makes me think that the Irish public will hold them accountable if they don't deliver

And as a former Tony Blair supporter I realise how much a man can fool us, I'm just saying if given the choice between FG and FF I'm voting FG

wSNL07H4vNw

[galwayhoop]

Jesus I realise they could turn around and forget about their contract, but the fact that they are harping on about it makes me think that the Irish public will hold them accountable if they don't deliver

the expression 'a week is a long time in politics' springs to mind never mind 5 years. rest assured the 'contract' will only last untill the polls are closed and then there would be 5 years of spin explaining why the contract could not be met!!

[Gareth]

Quite happy it wasn't like last night seeing as these are the two men vying for the job of leader of the country. Last night was a soundbite a minute, whereas this was always going to be much calmer.

I thought Ahern came out ahead. Ahern wore Enda down on numbers. The contract is a naive and silly piece of propaganda, especially seeing as if there is an economic downturn, Kenny will not be able to implement his contract and be out of office next term, and if there isn't one, how blindly will he be to implement his points, at the danger of becoming narrow minded to honour this contract. Its awful american drivel.

[jebus]

I can assure you I'm a very gullible person, I did buy a copy of It's Hard, despite already owning the equally poor Face Dances :p

[BohsPartisan]

the expression 'a week is a long time in politics' springs to mind never mind 5 years. rest assured the 'contract' will only last untill the polls are closed and then there would be 5 years of spin explaining why the contract could not be met!!
Yeah and its us poor civil servants who will be wasting their time having to make that sh1t up!

[pete]

Yeah and its us poor civil servants who will be wasting their time having to make that sh1t up!

Are you baiting me to get me banned? Must resist obvious joke... :D

[TheBoss]

I thought that Kenny was the better of the two. Bertie was talking the most and that seems to have made people think that he was better. Enda's comments seemed very sensible but Bertie was trying to downgrade them, which made look better as it was but the targets that Enda put out are possible and can be done.

[BohsPartisan]

Are you baiting me to get me banned? Must resist obvious joke... :D

Damn! :D

[GavinZac]

Jesus I realise they could turn around and forget about their contract, but the fact that they are harping on about it makes me think that the Irish public will hold them accountable if they don't deliver

so pretty much, you'll give them the chance to f*ck everything up because sure its only 5 years.

Enda appeared to completely avoid justifying his planned spending, and the one area that he did, in hiring the extra gardai, he let it slip that his claims actually rely upon what he was claiming bertie hadnt done! bertie's "extra 2000 gardai" is on top of whats already in training, enda's was including those in training - he's a great man for the weasel words, enda.

all in all, it just surely proved that fine gael have nothing new to offer except the ability to point out whats wrong - and gave no indication that as a party they are capable of change or that as a leader, enda is capable of holding office.

[dahamsta]

I missed quite a lot of it while discussing points with the gf, but my impression of it as a whole was that they were pretty evenly matched.

adam

[jebus]

so pretty much, you'll give them the chance to f*ck everything up because sure its only 5 years.


Yep ;)

[Risteard]

I think Bertie Ahern performed better in the debate but I'm unsure if he won anything exactly so I'm abstaining.
I'll be voting for a change of government anyway.

[Matchman]

I thought there was something more statesmanlike about Ahern

Dunno why, maybe its his experience

It was annoying the way Kenny kept goin on about 'the woman I met in Ballina', 'the pensioner I met in Fermoy'- everybody meets people with problems but individual cases do not make for good policy

[Calcio Jack]

I llistened to the debate on the Vincent Browne radio show...after it one of the commnetators mentioned that Bertie seemed to be making a great effort with his diction.... glad to see PJ Mara and the boys are finally listening to me !!!

[dahamsta]

It was annoying the way Kenny kept goin on about 'the woman I met in Ballina', 'the pensioner I met in Fermoy'- everybody meets people with problems but individual cases do not make for good policyThis is part and parcel of Kenny's "contract" campaign, to show that he's connected to Ireland. In general it's a good PR technique, Kenny just doesn't know when to stop. He needs to put a little less stock in what his handlers tell him and roll with it occasionally, to make himself look less rigid. He's succeeding to a degree, but there's "a lot more to do". :)

It's worth remembering what his opponent was like when he walked into office. In his anorak. With his current accent multiplied by three.

adam

[galwayhoop]

exactly what is the change (that people seem so intent on getting) going to consist of? what new policys do FG offer from FF? the only differences are a slightly different views on stamp duty, 'x' amount of guards versus 'y' amount. 'q' amount of hospital beds versus 'r' amount. it's not as if this change is from capitalist to socialist, democrat to republican or even tory to labour. FFS the two parties are so in line with each other policy wise that the only thing that has prevented them from merging is their respective histories! the only question that needs to be answered is are FG more capable as the senior partner in government than FF and i would have to say No on that one.

If this country is ever going to see real change it would mean labour, the greens or shinners coming in as the senior partner in government but not FG for christ sakes.

although given the average punters knowledge of politics the 'change' that may come will be for a new man as taoiseach due to his smile, knowledge of pensioners, more articulate soundbites and this bloody 'contract'. :rolleyes:

sad times indeed when people can't tell you for what exact political reasons they are choosing change but merely have decided they want change for the sake of it and are willing to vote on totally superfical reasons. :rolleyes:

[jebus]

I don't think there is any difference between FG and FF but I'll be voting for 'change' for two reasons

- I personally believe that 10 years is long enough to have one head of state at the helm, personaly I prefer the US model of eight years and you're out as I think politicans and their ideas grow stale over time, this ha been shown through Blair failing to realise that he is completely out of touch with the British voter (even more so than two years ago), George W's approval ratings sliding with each passing year, Chirac being..well Chirac, Bertie losing his man of the people touch somwhat, and even Clinton towards the end of his second term had lost some of the spark that made people like him

- Whether there is evidence of it or not (hopefully we'll find out after the election) Fianna Fail reeks of corruption at the moment, people say Fine Gael would do the same, well would it not be better to try the people that might be corrupt, rather than the party that will definatly be corrupt?

[galwayhoop]

I personally believe that 10 years is long enough to have one head of state at the helm, personaly I prefer the US model of eight years and you're out as I think politicans and their ideas grow stale over time, this ha been shown through Blair failing to realise that he is completely out of touch with the British voter (even more so than two years ago), George W's approval ratings sliding with each passing year, Chirac being..well Chirac, Bertie losing his man of the people touch somwhat, and even Clinton towards the end of his second term had lost some of the spark that made people like him

US system is totally different. you vote for a president, you vote for your congres, and you vote for your senate. it is a three tier system. the president and the ruling party in the congress are not always the same. in our system the leader of the largest party in government (usually) becomes the taoiseach. giving the government much more stability as the leader and the ruling party are from the same party. The american system can become unstable as one party is in congress while the leader is from the opposition. the president of ireland is merely a figure head - a glorified ambasador.

oh yeah and that great system in the USA gave us George W instead of Clinton! Great change there then!! And because a president can only serve 2 terms you usually see some serious dodgy moves in the final weeks of their term. Grants, criminals exonarated, contract issued, promotions.....etc.

However bad our system is do not say that the Yank's is better. If you think a few builders at the Galway Races is treason then look at the donations to American Presidential campaigns from Drug Companies, Oil Co.'s, Weapons manufactures. Ever wonder why the Americans seem to need a War every decade, well look at who funded their election!!!! Has their been many Medical breakthroughs in recent memory or merely serious advancement in Drugs which contain or reduce symptoms - what was the last major disease that was cured with all of our major technology???? But I don't want to go on about all of that.

[dahamsta]

In my opinion the main difference is with the partner in government, and there's a pretty big difference between the core views of the PDs and Labour.

adam

[pete]

I don't doubt FG-Lab can delivery that much more than FF but I think FG-Labour government will be more accountable. When Ministers feck up they will be booted out. In the current setup its almost impossible for Bertie to sack his friends.

[Dodge]

I don't doubt FG-Lab can delivery that much more than FF but I think FG-Labour government will be more accountable. When Ministers feck up they will be booted out. In the current setup its almost impossible for Bertie to sack his friends.

Its where the PDs failed IMO. They had several chances of discussing Bertie's payments etc but left it until election to voice their concerns as they wanted te power more than anything. I honestly don't think Labour would back up FG the same way (and vice versa)

[galwayhoop]

In my opinion the main difference is with the partner in government, and there's a pretty big difference between the core views of the PDs and Labour.

adam

agree totally with this. the coalition partner will represent the real change in the incoming government. the PD's have returned themselves almost totally with FF and do not represent the 'moral conscience' that they were supposed to!

Labour will be a change whether it is with FF or FG and voters should be looking down this avenue instead of believing that FG will be a change of major proportions.

[MyTown]

Well impressed with the comments here so far & that fellow Foot.ie members are engaged enough with the importance of actually voting next Thursday.

I've already nailed my colours to the mast on the Galway United link here, but for me the television highlight last night was the Green party political broadcast BEFORE the debate. I won't be voting Green this time and I think their ship has sailed, but I still thought it was good TV.

Over on TV3 at 8pm, Pat Rabbitte was being grilled :rolleyes: by Eddie Hobbs and Matt Cooper. I thought it was better coverage overall than the huge hyping the national broadcaster did for the main event.

[reder]

I watched last night's debate and the debate the night before from start to finish as I am totally undecided on how to vote in truth.

Last night I primarily wanted to see what Enda Kenny could/would be like as a the leader of this country. I was impressed with his opening 20 mins but as this progessed and the debate started to flow it became clear to me that he is a top-notch local politician but will never be Taoiseach material.

This contract is complete an utter non-sense. As many have correctly said, it will thrown out the window once the polls close and the parties come together to form a program for goverment. I would also have huge reservations about how well he could manage our economy if we encountered a recession of any kind.

Was nobody else completely dumbfounded by Gerry Adam's complete inability to discuss even the most basic figures relating to the economy here the night before. This seems to have been completely overlooked by the media. This party currently holds in or around 10% of the vote and its leader has a pathetic knowlege of our economy. SF are without the ultimate single issue party. It saddens me greatly that 10% are actually willing to give these people a vote. It really says so much about the people of Ireland nowadays.

[pete]

I think a lot people don't believe that Labour won't do a u-turn & bring FF back into government. Because of this if you want to ensure FF don't get back in the only choice is FG.

[galwayhoop]

the ultimate single issue party.

and many would argue not very strong on that issue either ;)

[Poor Student]

I think a lot people don't believe that Labour won't do a u-turn & bring FF back into government. Because of this if you want to ensure FF don't get back in the only choice is FG.

Well Pat Rabbitte has staken his leadership on an FG coalition. Are the likes of Brendan Howlin staying back in case they need to jetison Rabbitte and replace him to do the deal? The numbers would have to fall in such a way that FG/Lab/Green can't establish a majority and neither can FF/PD.

[reder]

I think a lot people don't believe that Labour won't do a u-turn & bring FF back into government. Because of this if you want to ensure FF don't get back in the only choice is FG.

I actually think that FF & Labour will end up as the next government. The other night Pat Rabbitte was very careful in not ruling out going into government with FF. I suspect that when the votes are counted and if the "prefered" coailition with FG & PD is not possible, Labour will be in government with FF.

[Erstwhile Bóz]

Yep, they'll be in like Flynn. Rabbitte resigns the leadership to save the tiniest shred of dignity but gets a nice Cabinet seat nontheless. Howlin becomes Tánaiste. My brother-in-law (ludicrously committed Labour activist) kills himself.