You players capable of higher standard than LOI/IL [Archive]

Steve Bruce

10/05/2007, 1:23 PM

Which players in your league do you think can make it at a higher level than our own?(I'm in work, not much to do so very bored)

McCallister (Dungannon) Being tracked by Celtic and apparently an offer has already been put in from a Championship side in England.

Jamie Mulgrew(Linfield) Only 20 or 21, has broke into the first team and is now a regular. He can pass, dribble, shoot and tackle. Also has tremendous fitness and has pace.

Peter Thompson(Linfield)23 year old. On his debut season, scored 27 goals, last season his second season 49 goals(including 1 under 21 international goal) Currently this season he is around 31 or 32 goals. Has pace, good feet, good with back against the goal. Is a bit suspect in the air though, although that has improved.

Alan Mannus(Linfield) 24 year old. Has been a regular for 4 or 5 seasons now. Is widely known as the best keeper in the Irish league. Comfortable with cross balls, great shot stopper, good penalty saver. However Kicking can be a bit suspect, always finds air but his direction is bad at times. He also isn't the most commanding either. But that can be worked on and it has got better with experience. International goalkeeper and IMO good enough to be top championship material possibly Premiership.

Ryan Berry(Glentoran)18. Good player, has pace and broke into the glentoran team. Don't really know too much about him, but he has been given a lot of plaudits in a very poor Glentoran side.

These are a few players off the top of my head.

EDIT: Could a mod or administrator change 'You' to 'Young'

sligoman

10/05/2007, 1:31 PM

Seamus Coleman, only 18 and has a great future ahead of him. Recently signed a 1 year extension to his contract. Can see him playing at a higher level in a few years, although I believe he could do so now even.

Chris Turner, aged 20. Northern Ireland U-21 international. Was playing first team with Derby County last season but was released due to off the pitch problems. Most likely off to Bohs in the summer but definitely capable of playing at a higher level.

Risteard

10/05/2007, 1:36 PM

Some very poor players could make it at that level.
John O'Shea has premiership medals.
Joe Gamble, Roy O'Donovan would be successful at Championship level.
If Colin Healy gets and stays fit for a year, i'd expect him to be gone fairly lively.
Thats just City.

Which players in your league do you think can make it at a higher level than our own?I'd hazard a guess that quite a few Linfield players could get by in the eL. :p :ball:

Steve Bruce

10/05/2007, 1:46 PM

Some very poor players could make it at that level.
John O'Shea has premiership medals.
Joe Gamble, Roy O'Donovan would be successful at Championship level.
If Colin Healy gets and stays fit for a year, i'd expect him to be gone fairly lively.
Thats just City.
I'd hazard a guess that quite a few Linfield players could get by in the eL.

:D

Or better yet, we could have a few Cork players up here to play for our reserves so they can experience teh art of winning;) :D

Disclaimer - Do not take it seriously, it is a joke.

Risteard

10/05/2007, 1:51 PM

:p
I'm sure the hallions would be ecstatic to be accepted by the Blues faithful.

Steve Bruce

10/05/2007, 1:52 PM

:p
I'm sure the hallions would be ecstatic to be accepted by the Blues faithful.

As long as you don't start molesting:D

OneRedArmy

10/05/2007, 2:03 PM

lofty9

10/05/2007, 2:03 PM

At Derry,

We've had speculation linking Deery, McCourt and Kelly away.

Deery? The closest he'll get to a higher level is by climbing on a ladder.

Kelly: Good player, but too slow. He's at his level, previously found out at Carlisle under Paul Simpson.

McCourt: Was too inconsistent when in England before. However, he has knuckled down with Derry and could easily make a move.

Steve Bruce

10/05/2007, 2:08 PM

Is this thread about which IL players could make it in the EL?

Based on my experiences, outside of Linfield, not many would make it at top clubs.

The Irish League has been a happy dumping ground for Derry City rejects for years (particularly the unfit and overweight ones).

No it is about IL or LOI players making it in Scotland or England.

There are many players in the IL that would make the grade in the LOI. The problem is we have too many teams and the amount of quality players are spread among to many teams so you dont really get the full and proper standard of some players. When our league is narrowed down to 12 or 10 teams 2008-2009 season, you will see what i mean.

paudie

10/05/2007, 2:08 PM

You never know who will make it at a higher level.

I wouldn't have put much on Kevin Doyle being one of the top scorers in the Premiership when he left us.

A lot of it is down to the mental strength and detemination of the player as well as their footballing ability.

I think Neal Horgan and Mick Devine (pushing on a bit maybe) would be well able for SPL or championship level. Possibly Softic in a few years and Darragh Ryan now.

Dodge

10/05/2007, 3:02 PM

Darragh ryan couldn't get a game for UCD last year and now Corkies think he's good enough for the Championship in England...

Anyway loads could with a bit of luck. All our midfieldhave played in the World Youth Cup with players who have succesful careers across the sea, so they have the talent (except NDo, who of course played in the actual world cup!)

Robbie Doyle, Trevor Molloy and Paul Keegan were all given contracts in the English or Scottish leagues and none of them could be considered top level LOI players.

Steve Bruce

10/05/2007, 3:05 PM

GavinZac

10/05/2007, 3:06 PM

Darragh ryan couldn't get a game for UCD last year and now Corkies think he's good enough for the Championship in England...
paudie being the democratic mouthpiece of all "Corkies", of course.

gustavo

10/05/2007, 3:08 PM

No it is about IL or LOI players making it in Scotland or England.

There are many players in the IL that would make the grade in the LOI. The problem is we have too many teams and the amount of quality players are spread among to many teams so you dont really get the full and proper standard of some players. When our league is narrowed down to 12 or 10 teams 2008-2009 season, you will see what i mean.

Steve I believe it is folly to equate "Scotland and England" in their entirety as being of a higher quality than the EL/IL

Steve Bruce

10/05/2007, 3:13 PM

Steve I believe it is folly to equate "Scotland and England" in their entirety as being of a higher quality than the EL/IL

SPL, England League 2 up to Premiership then.

Why be so pedantic about it? Scotland and England offer better opportunities than LOI or IL will ever give.

GavinZac

10/05/2007, 3:17 PM

Why be so pedantic about it? Scotland and England offer better opportunities than LOI or IL will ever give.
We actually have some ambition down here so I'd dispute you saying we will never offer better than Scotland/England. We might not match the insane money being spent at the moment in the premiership, or by certain attention seeking tools trying to get there, but i don't see it as impossible that at some point wages/crowds would be around championship level, with the added bonus offered of european football and playing for your home team.
off topic anyway.
everyone seems convinced roy o'donovan will be opting for richer shores this summer, it just seems a matter of which club is willing to stump up money first.

gustavo

10/05/2007, 3:20 PM

Steve Bruce

10/05/2007, 3:26 PM

We actually have some ambition down here so I'd dispute you saying we will never offer better than Scotland/England. We might not match the insane money being spent at the moment in the premiership, or by certain attention seeking tools trying to get there, but i don't see it as impossible that at some point wages/crowds would be around championship level, with the added bonus offered of european football and playing for your home team.
off topic anyway.
everyone seems convinced roy o'donovan will be opting for richer shores this summer, it just seems a matter of which club is willing to stump up money first.

Another jibe:rolleyes:

Anyway, You will NEVER match Championship level, You might get League 1 level but never championship. Crowds of 20,000 etc and wages of 10,000 a week. I very much doubt that. But if you do achieve that I will be the first to eat humble pie and tip my hat to yous.

jebus

10/05/2007, 3:26 PM

We actually have some ambition down here so I'd dispute you saying we will never offer better than Scotland/England. We might not match the insane money being spent at the moment in the premiership, or by certain attention seeking tools trying to get there, but i don't see it as impossible that at some point wages/crowds would be around championship level, with the added bonus offered of european football and playing for your home team

In fairness the Championships average attendence passed out that of Serie A last year, and when you consider the attendence figures of clubs like Birmingham, Leeds, Sheffield Wednesday, Sunderland and quite a few more Championship clubs this year then I can't see how the EL will ever catch up the Championship in terms of crowds or wages

Steve Bruce

10/05/2007, 3:29 PM

welll it was because your original point was "at a higher level" which i dont believe League 2 is Fair enough then if you are saying English League 2 I would say most players in the EL Premier Division would be quite able to earn a living in that division , A lot of players in the top half teams would earn a living at League 1 level also , again this is just opinion

As you say it's your opinion.

I watch a lot of lower league football and a bit of LOI as well as a lot of Irish League.

My opinion is, the best teams from Northern Ireland and the Republic eg Linfield, St Pats, Drogs, Derry City and Cork would live in League 2. Around the mid table mark. The rest would be scattered amongst the lesser divisions.

There are players in both leagues who would compete in Championship/League 1 and many in League 2.

But our overall standard on this island I would say is more Conference with the better teams in League 2.

This has nothing to do with ambition, professionalism or banter/spite towards LOI, it is just my opinion on what I believe is a truer reflection on the standard of your game and Linfield.

Steve Bruce

10/05/2007, 3:30 PM

GavinZac

10/05/2007, 3:33 PM

In fairness the Championships average attendence passed out that of Serie A last year, and when you consider the attendence figures of clubs like Birmingham, Leeds, Sheffield Wednesday, Sunderland and quite a few more Championship clubs this year then I can't see how the EL will ever catch up the Championship in terms of crowds or wages

The examples you put forth are representative of city's much larger than any club's catchment in Ireland. On the other hand, Colchester are in the championship and average 4000 people at games.

of course, the eL needs outside investment aswell as increased attendances, the same as the championship does/did.

Dodge

10/05/2007, 3:33 PM

It never will, but that doesn't mean a side like Drogheda wouldn't have the bones a squad that could easily stay in the Championship. The top 4/5 el sides all have at least 5/6 players that are good enough to play championship or scottish premier football.

The crowds argument is ridiculous.

BTW fair enough Gavin...

Cymro

10/05/2007, 3:33 PM

As I was saying to dcfcsteve in another thread even League One has average attendances about twice that of Irish sides.

Swansea would have average attendances about 4 times the size of the best League of Ireland side.

League of Ireland crowds are on a par with League Two or the Conference. Or, in one or two teams cases, lower than that.

Got a long way to go to match the Championship in terms of crowds and generally speaking Championship sides have much more money too.

OneRedArmy

10/05/2007, 3:35 PM

Another jibe:rolleyes:

Anyway, You will NEVER match Championship level, You might get League 1 level but never championship. Crowds of 20,000 etc and wages of 10,000 a week. I very much doubt that. But if you do achieve that I will be the first to eat humble pie and tip my hat to yous.Our recent European record would say different.

Granted thats only the top sides and the rest of the League isn't as good (and it could also argued that the recent success has been built on pillars of sand financially).

But you compared the IL & EL to English division 4 or whatever its called these days, so I genuinely don't think you're up to speed on what level our League is at.

Linfield are not a good proxy for the standard of the wider IL, and if you continue to claim parity based purely on Linfields Setanta results, you are going to continue to be ignored on here.

gustavo

10/05/2007, 3:35 PM

Thread is about players being able to play at a higher standard not about crowds in the UK

pete

10/05/2007, 3:36 PM

English Championship is poor enough quality so loads of eL players could make it.

How many could make the Premiership? We have 3 ex-players with Premiership sides & probably one more on his way...

GavinZac

10/05/2007, 3:36 PM

Thread is about players being able to play at a higher standard not about crowds in the UK

yes but if the threat starter is defining "a higher standard" as the lowest level of the football league in england, we have a problem right from the start.

jebus

10/05/2007, 3:38 PM

The examples you put forth are representative of city's much larger than any club's catchment in Ireland. On the other hand, Colchester are in the championship and average 4000 people at games.

of course, the eL needs outside investment aswell as increased attendances, the same as the championship does/did.

EL will still never catch up in terms of crowds or size of the clubs because they don't even have the stadia in place to even come close to that of the Championships average attendence. You listed Colchester as 4,000 average, but I could list you at least 20 of the 24 Championship clubs this season that no team in this country will ever come close to matching for attendences, and thats probably doing an injustice to 3 of the remaining 4. It's real pie in the sky talk to talk of the EL matching the Championship.

paudie

10/05/2007, 3:39 PM

Darragh ryan couldn't get a game for UCD last year and now Corkies think he's good enough for the Championship in England...

My opinion is based on the fact that:

1. Ryan has impressed me a lot this season. I am genuinely amazed he couldn't get his game for UCD last season.

2. Danny Murphy and Sean Dillon seem well up to SPL standard since they've moved. i said Darragh could make it in SPL also.

3. The general standard of the Championship isn't great.

4. I also said that a successful move is based on the players own attitude and if Darragh worked hard and got a few breaks he could do well at that level.

Cymro

10/05/2007, 3:40 PM

OneRedArmy

10/05/2007, 3:40 PM

yes but if the threat starter is defining "a higher standard" as the lowest level of the football league in england, we have a problem right from the start.The thread starter is extrapolating Linfields performance in the Setanta (pre-season warm up for our summer season) to equate the IL to the EL. This is completely flawed, as the respective Leagues recent Euro coefficient rankings show.

GavinZac

10/05/2007, 3:40 PM

EL will still never catch up... they don't even have the stadia in place to even come close

future tense... present tense.

i'm not talking about in the next 10 years, its just ridiculous to make an assertive claim that it never will be anywhere near it.

Cork has a population larger than Swansea, yet Swansea get far higher crowds. (about 3,000 at Cork compared to about 12,000 at the Liberty Stadium)

Why do Swansea get higher crowds? Better team? Nah, can't be. :p
A combination of Hurling and Football's success, general hostility toward the eircom league, the incomparable competition with EPL sides, and the every-so-often likelihood of meeting a "famous" team.

by the way, we beat swansea last time we played them, if i recall correctly.

Steve Bruce

10/05/2007, 3:44 PM

jebus

10/05/2007, 3:44 PM

future tense... present tense.

i'm not talking about in the next 10 years, its just ridiculous to make an assertive claim that it never will be anywhere near it.

Hardly, give it 10, 20, 30 years, whatever it will still be the same, if anything, barring a miracle, the gulf will just widen. I honestly don't see how you think Cork, Pats, Bohs, etc. will ever catch the likes of Coventry, Norwich, Ipswich etc., and they aren't even among the biggest clubs in the Championship

GavinZac

10/05/2007, 3:45 PM

You are comparing the lowest average supported team who has a higher average than the HIGHEST average supported team in LOI

Yes, at present. You're claiming we never, ever will pass them out, which is a ridiculous assumption and indicative of your lack of ambition, probably brought about by years of embarrassment in europe. mind you, very many people would have said that ten years ago when eL sides were being slaughtered in europe too.

Steve Bruce

10/05/2007, 3:47 PM

Our recent European record would say different.

Granted thats only the top sides and the rest of the League isn't as good (and it could also argued that the recent success has been built on pillars of sand financially).

But you compared the IL & EL to English division 4 or whatever its called these days, so I genuinely don't think you're up to speed on what level our League is at.

Linfield are not a good proxy for the standard of the wider IL, and if you continue to claim parity based purely on Linfields Setanta results, you are going to continue to be ignored on here.

My point is Linfield would be comfortably challanging for your league if we played in it. I do not believe Linfield or Cork City or Derry City or any other team would live in the Championship, nor near it. But there are a few players in each club that could.

jebus

10/05/2007, 3:47 PM

Yes, at present. You're claiming we never, ever will pass them out, which is a ridiculous assumption and indicative of your lack of ambition.

And where is this sudden surge of interest in our clubs going to come from? A surge that would push Cork's average gate to at least the 22,000 mark, and while this is happening interest in the English game would presumably have to tail off so the clubs Cork are trying to catch don't expand their fanbase

GavinZac

10/05/2007, 3:48 PM

And where is this sudden surge of interest in our clubs going to come from? A surge that would push Cork's average gate to at least the 22,000 mark, and while this is happening interest in the English game would presumably have to tail off so the clubs Cork are trying to catch don't expand their fanbase
that kind of support has been present in the past, is present for other sports events and i see no reason to suggest it is an impossible task for the future. its been a long road downhill and it'll probably be a long road uphill but if half the people that currently obsess about EPL were to give the same support for their local clubs tomorrow as seen in other countries, we wouldnt be far off it.

My point is Linfield would be comfortably challanging for your league if we played in it.
on what basis do you make this claim?

OneRedArmy

10/05/2007, 3:50 PM

My point is Linfield would be comfortably challanging for your league if we played in it. I do not believe Linfield or Cork City or Derry City or any other team would live in the Championship, nor near it. But there are a few players in each club that could.I made that point!!!

The top 3 of our League has been as good as the top half of division 1 standard over the past 5 years. I think we's struggle in the Championship too, but we are comfortably better than the English 2nd division.

Steve Bruce

10/05/2007, 3:51 PM

The thread starter is extrapolating Linfields performance in the Setanta (pre-season warm up for our summer season) to equate the IL to the EL. This is completely flawed, as the respective Leagues recent Euro coefficient rankings show.

We might as well wrap this thread up, you have successfully brought Linfield into the equation and I am naturally going to defend my club.

Linfield are on par with anything you have down there. That is fact, we have proved it. 15 unbeated group games in a row. beat EVERY LOI team we have played. We have nothign to prove.

using Coefficients is very flawed as we are not like for like. Maybe we should compare our co-efficients from before your summer football move, which showed the IL slightly higher rating.

Or if the IL moves to the summer you could then use htis as a better indication.

I'm using a tournement where we play each other and linfield has shown to be the best team in the tournement history as we have out performed every team.

But that wasn't my point so don't try making it one.

Cymro

10/05/2007, 3:52 PM

A combination of Hurling and Football's success, general hostility toward the eircom league, the incomparable competition with EPL sides, and the every-so-often likelihood of meeting a "famous" team.

by the way, we beat swansea last time we played them, if i recall correctly.

When did you last play us? I don't ever recall Swansea playing Cork. At least not in the last ten years, which is when I've started seriously following the club.

By the way I could cite the same reasons for why we don't fill our stadium, except substitute rugby for gaelic games. It's a well-known fact that the four best supported sides in South Wales are Man United, Liverpool, Arsenal and Chelsea. SCFC and Cardiff come a distant second to most fans, and this also severely impacts on support for the national league too.

gustavo

10/05/2007, 3:53 PM

It's a bit silly to be constantly comparing ourselves to the English leagues , thats what the barstoolers do in disparaging terms , we should be looking to make the league flourish on its own terms and not to be constantly looking across the water as a barometer of its success.

Steve Bruce

10/05/2007, 3:53 PM

Yes, at present. You're claiming we never, ever will pass them out, which is a ridiculous assumption and indicative of your lack of ambition, probably brought about by years of embarrassment in europe. mind you, very many people would have said that ten years ago when eL sides were being slaughtered in europe too.

Nothing to do with ambition. It is to do with reality. Do you think any team will ever average crowds of 30,000? Your a good stand up son.

Also 10 years ago? How about 5 years ago. You are only getting good results since you moved to the SUmmer. Before that you where gettign the same embarrassing results as the IL. Actually you where slightly behind in Co-Efficients.

Steve Bruce

10/05/2007, 3:55 PM

that kind of support has been present in the past, is present for other sports events and i see no reason to suggest it is an impossible task for the future. its been a long road downhill and it'll probably be a long road uphill but if half the people that currently obsess about EPL were to give the same support for their local clubs tomorrow as seen in other countries, we wouldnt be far off it.

on what basis do you make this claim?

By the fact that we have beat all your top teams over 3 seasons and haven't failed to top our group with your best teams.:rolleyes:

OneRedArmy

10/05/2007, 3:56 PM

We might as well wrap this thread up, you have successfully brought Linfield into the equation and I am naturally going to defend my club.

Linfield are on par with anything you have down there. That is fact, we have proved it. 15 unbeated group games in a row. beat EVERY LOI team we have played. We have nothign to prove.

using Coefficients is very flawed as we are not like for like. Maybe we should compare our co-efficients from before your summer football move, which showed the IL slightly higher rating.

Or if the IL moves to the summer you could then use htis as a better indication.

I'm using a tournement where we play each other and linfield has shown to be the best team in the tournement history as we have out performed every team.

But that wasn't my point so don't try making it one.Learn to read and then I'll respond.

Steve Bruce

10/05/2007, 3:56 PM

I made that point!!!

The top 3 of our League has been as good as the top half of division 1 standard over the past 5 years. I think we's struggle in the Championship too, but we are comfortably better than the English 2nd division.

We'll agree to disagree because the top League 2 sides would **** over any team on this island.

Steve Bruce

10/05/2007, 3:57 PM

Learn to read and then I'll respond.

Lose your chip and maybe we can have a sensible debate without you and your other Derry City supporters dragging it down.

A team taht gets beat every season by Glentoran:D

GavinZac

10/05/2007, 3:57 PM

When did you last play us? I don't ever recall Swansea playing Cork. At least not in the last ten years, which is when I've started seriously following the club.A few years ago, we had a mini-tournament with yourselves and Wrexham for the "Swansea-Cork Ferries Cup". We definately beat Wrexham, and i think we beat swansea too.

GavinZac

10/05/2007, 4:01 PM

Also 10 years ago? How about 5 years ago. You are only getting good results since you moved to the SUmmer. Before that you where gettign the same embarrassing results as the IL. Actually you where slightly behind in Co-Efficients.
It was 10 years ago we beat IFK Gothernberg, and around seven years ago that Bohs went a couple of rounds before being put out by Kaiserslautern. Around that time, Shels and St. Pats met Celtic and Rangers, neither were embaressed and St. Pats lead 3-0 at one point. There is a period of inconsistency between consistently losing and consistently winning, and that was that period.

Of course, last year who knows, only for Denis Behan's knee'd in own-goal, and our multitude of suspensions and walk-offs (bye George), we could've ended up playing Milan who will, fingers crossed, win the entire Champions League this year. And then we could've boasted only being put out by the eventual champions! :D we had to make do with past champions.

But yeah, of course we're conference standard, you're right :rolleyes: