View Full Version : You players capable of higher standard than LOI/IL
SligoBrewer
10/05/2007, 4:13 PM
keith foy has played championship.. could still do if he knuckled down and lost the weight..
Around that time, Shels and St. Pats met Celtic and Rangers, neither were embaressed and St. Pats lead 3-0 at one point. There is a period of inconsistency between consistently losing and consistently winning, and that was that period.
Other way round, Shels were leading Rangers 3-0 but lost in Tranmere. We drew 0-0 in Glasgow and lost 0-2 in Dublin
Around that time, Shels and St. Pats met Celtic and Rangers, neither were embaressed and St. Pats lead 3-0 at one point.
:
It was shels who played rangers. I can remember rutherford scoring but not a lot else from the game apart from the fact that it was played in
prenton park over on merseyside
St.pats then drew with celtic 0-0 in parkhead. I remember one st.Pats striker having a glorious chance at the end.
Ceirtlis
10/05/2007, 4:25 PM
Robbie Doyle, Trevor Molloy and Paul Keegan were all given contracts in the English or Scottish leagues and none of them could be considered top level LOI players.
The Motherwell two have had a nightmare since going over and Robbie Doyle is not playing in the team that is second bottom in league 2, but he could be injured.
GavinZac
10/05/2007, 4:26 PM
Other way round, Shels were leading Rangers 3-0 but lost in Tranmere. We drew 0-0 in Glasgow and lost 0-2 in Dublin
Fair enough. Easy to mistake Pats for Shels anyway :p :)
charliesboots
10/05/2007, 4:28 PM
St.pats then drew with celtic 0-0 in parkhead. I remember one st.Pats striker having a glorious chance at the end.
Damn you Martin Reilly
Ceirtlis
10/05/2007, 4:33 PM
It was 10 years ago we beat IFK Gothernberg, and around seven years ago that Bohs went a couple of rounds before being put out by Kaiserslautern. Around that time, Shels and St. Pats met Celtic and Rangers, neither were embaressed and St. Pats lead 3-0 at one point. There is a period of inconsistency between consistently losing and consistently winning, and that was that period.
Of course, last year who knows, only for Denis Behan's knee'd in own-goal, and our multitude of suspensions and walk-offs (bye George), we could've ended up playing Milan who will, fingers crossed, win the entire Champions League this year. And then we could've boasted only being put out by the eventual champions! :D we had to make do with past champions.
But yeah, of course we're conference standard, you're right :rolleyes:
The glass is always half full with yourself anyways. Where to start, ye "beat" ifk in the second leg lost 3-1 on aggregate. Shels lost 7-3 on aggregate the same as Derry beat Gretna now im sure your not going to say that Gretna werent outclassed. One team that was outclassed were Cork city in Belgrade. If ye had your full team ye might have given them a better game but ye would absolutely not have beaten them.
GavinZac
10/05/2007, 4:47 PM
A few years before that, the eL would have been embarrassed by them, as I said. Nothing embarressing about semi-pro teams losing over two legs, my point is that that time was when the results started improving.
If ye had your full team ye might have given them a better game but ye would absolutely not have beaten them.The match was even at home, they didnt have much to offer. Obviously, they seemed to either be unmotivated or playing for the draw, but as i said, we'll never know what might have happened in belgrade! they probably would have still had too much for us, but then their players were being rated in the millions and tens of millions by premiership managers at that point.
Whats funny is Stevo's insistence that the reason we started winning was summer soccer, when Keflavik, Gothenburg, Malmo and Djurgarden also all play summer soccer and were beaten by eL sides.
DmanDmythDledge
10/05/2007, 4:54 PM
Darren Quigley, Conor Kenna, Ronan Finn, Greg Bolger, Gary Dicker from UCD.
Tis-smeee
10/05/2007, 5:12 PM
Kenny Browne is a class act for us and still young , def learning his trade at centre back for us and Paul McCarthy will be one of the best players in the league if he keeps developing, the others are all bar none gash
AnnaghRed
10/05/2007, 8:06 PM
The Irish League has been a happy dumping ground for Derry City rejects for years (particularly the unfit and overweight ones).
How come you have at least four former IL players in your current first team then?
Steve Bruce
11/05/2007, 9:13 AM
A few years before that, the eL would have been embarrassed by them, as I said. Nothing embarressing about semi-pro teams losing over two legs, my point is that that time was when the results started improving.
The match was even at home, they didnt have much to offer. Obviously, they seemed to either be unmotivated or playing for the draw, but as i said, we'll never know what might have happened in belgrade! they probably would have still had too much for us, but then their players were being rated in the millions and tens of millions by premiership managers at that point.
Whats funny is Stevo's insistence that the reason we started winning was summer soccer, when Keflavik, Gothenburg, Malmo and Djurgarden also all play summer soccer and were beaten by eL sides.
No my insistance is your regulary getting good results since Summer football.
The Irish League has had many famous results, but now we are left behind. LOI are keeping up and in ways making small but definate inroads in Europe.
But to compare Linfields performance to LOI performance in Europe is silly as it is not a like for like situation. If we could play our European games in October we would hammer most teams because every season, we out play our european counterparts every season, but because of lack of match practise, we make silly mistakes, our players get fatigued and we fade in the last 10 minutes. In October this wouldn't happen.
I'm not taking away from LOI clubs for there acheivements, I'm just putting a bit of perspective here, something that you seem to lack.
Also I never said that the top teams where Conference standard, I said the rest of the league, eg Dublin City.
The only real way to compare leagues is by comparing like with like, however there are some hints.
As to like-for-like, Sweden is another full-time summertime league, and have been knocked out of Europe by eL clubs every time the two leagues have met in the last three years. Two of the teams knocked out (Malmo and Djurgarden) went on to be Swedish Champions. This suggests at the very least that the two leagues are on a par, despite more money, facilities and crowds in the Swedish league.
As for hints:
- the eL has become a hunting ground for Championship and SPL managers, mostly because they can get quality players at a fraction of what they'd pay elsewhere.
- many former eL players are playing at SPL, Championship level or above
Facilities and crowds are affected by other factors and are an irrelevance as to the quality of the league. Cymro do you think Swansea would be getting the same crowds if they played in the Welsh league? If so why don't they?
The Setanta cup was set up to negate the advantages of the fulltime setup down south. That said Linfield have shown that they could easily mix it up in the eL but unless they went pro I don't think they'd challenge over a season.
Now before knickers get twisted I say this purely because I have seen the effects that going fulltime achieves.
If we could play our European games in October we would hammer most teams
I'm just putting a bit of perspective here, something that you seem to lack.
Seriously, you might want a bit of perspective yourself there mate. Up until about 10 years ago first rounds of europe were player in late September/Early October and you weren't hammering anybody.
Also I never said that the top teams where Conference standard, I said the rest of the league, eg Dublin City.
If you're going to give an example when havinga dig a tthe league, you might want to use a team thats actually in it. As you've used an extinct team, you really shouldn't be commenting on the league at all
No my insistance is your regulary getting good results since Summer football.
Not only Summer Football, the improvement in performances have also come about from the benefits of the fulltime structures most top eL clubs have in place.
Steve Bruce
11/05/2007, 9:24 AM
The only real way to compare leagues is by comparing like with like, however there are some hints.
As to like-for-like, Sweden is another full-time summertime league, and have been knocked out of Europe by eL clubs every time the two leagues have met in the last three years. Two of the teams knocked out (Malmo and Djurgarden) went on to be Swedish Champions. This suggests at the very least that the two leagues are on a par, despite more money, facilities and crowds in the Swedish league.
As for hints:
- the eL has become a hunting ground for Championship and SPL managers, mostly because they can get quality players at a fraction of what they'd pay elsewhere.
- many former eL players are playing at SPL, Championship level or above
Facilities and crowds are affected by other factors and are an irrelevance as to the quality of the league. Cymro do you think Swansea would be getting the same crowds if they played in the Welsh league? If so why don't they?
The Setanta cup was set up to negate the advantages of the fulltime setup down south. That said Linfield have shown that they could easily mix it up in the eL but unless they went pro I don't think they'd challenge over a season.
Now before knickers get twisted I say this purely because I have seen the effects that going fulltime achieves.
Mate I disagree that we wouldn't challange for the season, but that is my opinion. That is the best post I have seen so far. Balance and although I disagree a valid opinion.
Steve Bruce
11/05/2007, 9:28 AM
Seriously, you might want a bit of perspective yourself there mate. Up until about 10 years ago first rounds of europe were player in late September/Early October and you weren't hammering anybody.
If you're going to give an example when havinga dig a tthe league, you might want to use a team thats actually in it. As you've used an extinct team, you really shouldn't be commenting on the league at all
You'll find that we quite often got past the first rounds and it was longer than 10 years ago when the games where early october probably 15. Also it was more of a free draw then and you could have got anyone outside the very top teams. Now we are drawn with teams with similar ability, so the whole thing is completely different from 15 years ago.
Also I used Dublin City because I know they haven't any fans to upset, as there seems a lot of people here are easily annoyed so i avoided that on purpose. But if you want a different example Shamrock Rovers.
Steve Bruce
11/05/2007, 9:30 AM
Not only Summer Football, the improvement in performances have also come about from the benefits of the fulltime structures most top eL clubs have in place.
I'm not saying Summer football is the be all and end all of your success, certainly you have improved the fitness and speed of your players which has helped no end. I can see the difference between the speed of IL to LOI and it is a league apart. There is only one club in our league who Linfield has faced who was our best opponent this season was Cliftonville. Unfortunately for then they didn't have the squad to keep the pressure up to the end.
I'm not saying Summer football is the be all and end all of your success, certainly you have improved the fitness and speed of your players which has helped no end. I can see the difference between the speed of IL to LOI and it is a league apart. There is only one club in our league who Linfield has faced who was our best opponent this season was Cliftonville. Unfortunately for then they didn't have the squad to keep the pressure up to the end.
But to use your logic, the LOI teams faced you in our preseason?
Anyway you're kidding yourself if you think you'd HAMMER teams in Europe. I'm not getting into a "My da's bigger than yours" type argument than you seem to love (I'm sure dcfcsteve will be along soon to talk to you) so I'm leaving it there
Good luck on Saturday
Steve Bruce
11/05/2007, 9:52 AM
But to use your logic, the LOI teams faced you in our preseason?
Anyway you're kidding yourself if you think you'd HAMMER teams in Europe. I'm not getting into a "My da's bigger than yours" type argument than you seem to love (I'm sure dcfcsteve will be along soon to talk to you) so I'm leaving it there
Good luck on Saturday
Hammer might be a bit of an over-exaggeration. But we would beat more teams than lose.
Also the LOI teams where in pre-season, but you had plenty of friendlies. We cannot get teams to play us in friendlies so early on, so you are still fresher and if I'm not mistaken, it is only your first game that is in pre-season teh rest is during your season campaign.
Also I haven't once said the IL is better than the LOI, because even a blind man can see the LOI is better standard. But Linfield would are definately teh standard of your top teams as we have proved against the top teams 3 years in a row.
Hammer might be a bit of an over-exaggeration. But we would beat more teams than lose.
You're a fan so you're not unbiased. Summer football wasn't the key, full time football is
Also the LOI teams where in pre-season, but you had plenty of friendlies.
Cork had none, Pats had one (Waterford). Assume the others were similar.
Also I haven't once said the IL is better than the LOI, because even a blind man can see the LOI is better standard. But Linfield would are definately teh standard of your top teams as we have proved against the top teams 3 years in a row.
Of course you would but its a moot point until you join the big league ;) :D
Steve Bruce
11/05/2007, 10:09 AM
You're a fan so you're not unbiased. Summer football wasn't the key, full time football is
Cork had none, Pats had one (Waterford). Assume the others were similar.
Of course you would but its a moot point until you join the big league ;) :D
Summer football helps greatly, because you are fitter and more sharp. I think that both factors are very important. The results show both work hand in hand very well. But your right Full-time is a massive factor.
Also we don't need to join foreign leagues to prove our status:D . We compete well in our own league and when we play our Southern counterparts, we more than compete. Unfortunately it is only us in Northern Ireland that do. Hopefully next season with Cliftonville in the Setanta cup we will get more results.
When our league is reduced to 10 or 12 teams we will be more competitive to.
Unfortunately we have to wait for the test of time before I can back that up comprehensively.
But anyway, we will never agree, so I'll agree to disagree about a lot of things.
Mate I disagree that we wouldn't challange for the season, but that is my opinion. That is the best post I have seen so far. Balance and although I disagree a valid opinion.
As Dodge said, you're a fan so of course you'd disagree ;) But we've seen it from clubs that were forced to revert to semi-pro - the inevitable slide down the table. By no means a small part of this is that semi-pro teams tend to lose their better players to the fulltime clubs.
TonyD
11/05/2007, 12:49 PM
It's a bit silly to be constantly comparing ourselves to the English leagues , thats what the barstoolers do in disparaging terms , we should be looking to make the league flourish on its own terms and not to be constantly looking across the water as a barometer of its success.
Well said Gustavo - that's the most sensible post in this thread by a country mile.
jebus
11/05/2007, 12:55 PM
- the eL has become a hunting ground for Championship and SPL managers, mostly because they can get quality players at a fraction of what they'd pay elsewhere.
Jesus people start sniffing around O'Donovan, Gamble and a few Derry lads and suddenly this is a hunting ground.
Facilities and crowds are affected by other factors and are an irrelevance as to the quality of the league.
But when you're debating where certain teams, i.e. Cork City, would feature in the English leagues then facilities and crowds are all important, without them you can never maintain yourself at Championship level, and argubly you'd struggle at League One level
Risteard
11/05/2007, 1:04 PM
Jesus people start sniffing around O'Donovan, Gamble and a few Derry lads and suddenly this is a hunting ground.
In fairness, you've omitted a few there.
Doyle,
Long,
Bennett,
O'Callaghan,
Murphy,
Molloy,
Keegan,
Dillon,
Dicker,
Ward,
J.Byrne,
Daryl Murphy,
Ciaran Martyn,
Ryan.
Probably more i can't think of but they're not being sniffed on.
They're gone.
And those dogs ****ed all over us.*
*Couldn't resist the metaphor.
In fairness, you've omitted a few there.
Fair enough, I was talking about players currently being looked at, I still don't think that makes us a Championship/SPL 'quality' breeding ground though
Steve Bruce
11/05/2007, 2:16 PM
As Dodge said, you're a fan so of course you'd disagree ;) But we've seen it from clubs that were forced to revert to semi-pro - the inevitable slide down the table. By no means a small part of this is that semi-pro teams tend to lose their better players to the fulltime clubs.
The thing that makes linfield different to any team in the LOI is the fact that there are no alternative to go to unless you go down south. So we are able to attract players who good calibre.
But Linfield are now reverting to full-time anyway with 6 players full-time and possibly 3 or 4 turning in the summer. So we'll soon be able to compete with LOI in that perspective and hopefully we'll get a bit of respect for our results.
Facilities and crowds are affected by other factors and are an irrelevance as to the quality of the league. Cymro do you think Swansea would be getting the same crowds if they played in the Welsh league? If so why don't they?
They're not an irrelevance as Swansea would never get 12,000 in the Welsh Premier, because the opposition simply isn't as attractive as playing the likes of Nottingham Forest.
I would generally agree with you as to your 'crowds don't reflect league quality' point though, as I had the same debate with dcfcsteve the other day.
However this is obviously within a certain level of reason. Cork's gates may not confine them to say, Conference level purely because of their gates (though I haven't seen them play, so can't really comment on this) however, they also will never challenge the top, top European sides until they're averaging gates in at least the five figures, in my opinion at least.
Summer football wasn't the key, full time football is
Full time football does not equal success in Europe. There is plenty of evidence for that in Wales.
TNS have been full time for years yet have not so much as won a tie.
On the other hand Rhyl and Carmarthen Town who operate on much lower budgets and are part time have enjoyed success, albeit limited, in Europe.
And, besides that, you'd have to be pretty ignorant not to see the fairly substantial change in Irish results since the move to summer football. If summer football isn't the key then the clubs must have improved a huge amount in the space of about 12 months.
Steve - totally off topic, but if you`re that bored - u could give the IFA a hand finding a new manager - i see Sanchez has left the NI post for Fulham - bit cheeky of him dont you think ????
BohsPartisan
11/05/2007, 4:32 PM
If summer football isn't the key then the clubs must have improved a huge amount in the space of about 12 months.
Summer football is just one factor. Irish clubs performances in Europe were improving since the end of the last decade, long before the advent of our summer season.
Cymro
11/05/2007, 10:07 PM
Summer football is just one factor. Irish clubs performances in Europe were improving since the end of the last decade, long before the advent of our summer season.
But why the massive leap forward in the last 3-4 years? Your coefficient has gone up about 2-3 points in the last 3-4 years, and given that it was about 1 to 1.5 before summer football, that's a huge leap in such a short space of time.
Let me remind you the the League of Ireland was behind the Welsh Premier in UEFA's rankings for part of the 90s and behind the Irish League for a long time.
It's obvious that summer football has had a considerable impact on your results in Europe since it was implemented. There may well be other factors involved too, however I believe if your league were to switch back to winter football it would not be achieving its current level of performance. I think without summer football your clubs may be struggling to hit the second round consistently.
It's not about skill-it's about match fitness.
GavinZac
12/05/2007, 7:31 AM
But why the massive leap forward in the last 3-4 years? Your coefficient has gone up about 2-3 points in the last 3-4 years, and given that it was about 1 to 1.5 before summer football, that's a huge leap in such a short space of time.professionalism, and better players (when those points were earned, Cork City had 3 future premiership players in their team, a player on form enough to be called to train with the international seniors, and a player who's going to move to the premiership in june)
It's not about skill-it's about match fitness.i would invite you to watch any of the City v Swedish games, both teams being on summer seasons, and tell me city won because of match fitness.
Cymro
12/05/2007, 11:08 AM
professionalism, and better players (when those points were earned, Cork City had 3 future premiership players in their team, a player on form enough to be called to train with the international seniors, and a player who's going to move to the premiership in june)
Cork are one team. It would take one hell of a freakish coincidence for the entire league to take a massive leap forward in terms of players.
i would invite you to watch any of the City v Swedish games, both teams being on summer seasons, and tell me city won because of match fitness.
Swedish teams are crap. I'm aware of that. Llanelli beat a Swedish team in Europe this year, so that's no bragging point, to be fair.
Soper
12/05/2007, 11:21 AM
IFK would thrash the Jacks
GavinZac
12/05/2007, 11:24 AM
Cork are one team. It would take one hell of a freakish coincidence for the entire league to take a massive leap forward in terms of players.
Not a coincidence, just an adoption of professionalism - this isnt rocket science. while the league suffered from its success this winter, the standard is still noticeably higher than a few seasons ago.
Whatever about swedish teams being rubbish, it was the on-form championship winning teams that Cork beat. being knocked out of europe by cork city seems to be a blessing in terms of winning a league :D
IFK would thrash the Jacks
Have you seen the Liberty Stadium when full? If we had 20,200 there, which if we ever played in Europe again I'm sure we would, we would have a great chance in my opinion.
Gefle, the team Llanelli played, would not even be League 2. And I say that from personal experience, as someone who's watched nearly 1,000 league games over the years.
Not a coincidence, just an adoption of professionalism - this isnt rocket science. while the league suffered from its success this winter, the standard is still noticeably higher than a few seasons ago.
As I've said full time doesn't improve things that much, and I've cited Welsh teams as evidence of this, however I suppose we can simply agree to disagree as this debate is going nowhere and I have no first-hand experience of Irish football.
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