Angel signs for the Red Bulls

[jebus]

Calling your team the New York Red Bulls, I mean ****sake....

Anyway, now that Beckham is making the switch stateside at the age of 31, Juan Pablo Angel has left Villa at the age of 31 for a move to America, Zinedine Zidane is being wooed by Los Angeles, and the Major League is thinking of dropping the number of non-nationals allowed play for you team, aswell as the wage cap, could we soon see a mass imigration of European and South American players to the States?

A few teams are apparantly looking into signing Frank Lampard, and whilst I think thats a bit optimistic from them, the fact that they would even look in the first place may be a sign of their future ambitions

[Dodge]

Calling your team the New York Red Bulls, I mean ****sake....


Well if I was the owner of Red Bull and I bought a football team in New York, thats what I'd call them. Makes sense in America. Changing the Austrian team to Red Bull Salzburg is stoopid though

[RogerMilla]

what a waster that fella is , he only had one good season coindeidentally in the lead up to his new contract !! o'neill dead right to cut him as soon as he could

[dfx-]

I've always thought he was decent..just got stuck and got ahem... *comfortable* at Villa

[Closed Account 2]

A few teams are apparantly looking into signing Frank Lampard, and whilst I think thats a bit optimistic from them, the fact that they would even look in the first place may be a sign of their future ambitions

He should go to the Chicago Fire, the food in that city would be perfect for him. Lots of burgers, BBQ ribs, fried chicken, pizza loaded with cheese, double portions of french fries... Just take him to the dunkin donuts at the airport and he'll sign up.

[danonion]

Im going to the game this weekend, doubt he will feature but not a bad signing

[Poor Student]

Toronto have signed Daniele Dichio from Preston. A decent enough signing but I hope he's not their marquee player!

[danonion]

If he is I'd say Kilbane has a fair shot of becoming a real celebrity in the USA

[Pauro 76]

Red Bulls sign Angel.

"Red Bull gives you (Angel) Wings"

[Steve Bruce]

If America takes football seriously they would become a major force. I could also see an expansion to the champions league if things did take off.

[jebus]

If America takes football seriously they would become a major force. I could also see an expansion to the champions league if things did take off.

or the scrapping of the Champions League and the expanding of the World Club Championship?

[papa-j]

Angel..loads of ability but a lazy ballbag. They'll need to drip feed him Redbull
to get him moving!

[Steve Bruce]

or the scrapping of the Champions League and the expanding of the World Club Championship?

World Club Championship hasn't got a great image. Who really gives a damn about it.

The Champions League although a miss leading name, it certaintly has all the prestige you would need.

So I would say the CL would be more of a goer due to its greater image and prestige

[dcfcsteve]

Well if I was the owner of Red Bull and I bought a football team in New York, thats what I'd call them. Makes sense in America. Changing the Austrian team to Red Bull Salzburg is stoopid though

Which would be all well and good if he'd actually bought a team, in New York. The Metrostars are in New Jersey, as is the new Red Bull Park he's building for them. At least when Distillery moved out of Belfast they had the decency to call themselves Lisburn Distillery....

Make no mistake that the owenr of Red Bull (Mateschitz) wants to use football as an extension of his brand - nothing more, nothing less. He really doesn't give a sh!t about the game, and cares less for any team that he usurps to act as his little brand vehicle. He was an evil b@stard with what he did to Salzburg in Austria - changing their name, colours, declaring a 'Year Zero' and saying they had no history. Luckily for him Amedrican clubs have no history, support or identity and their goonish fans don't give a sh!t about such things.

Though he is also looking for a club to do the same with in England, so get the popcorn in for the mother of all b!tch-fights over that, as he slowly realises he has bitten off more than his brand can chew...

[dcfcsteve]

If America takes football seriously they would become a major force. I could also see an expansion to the champions league if things did take off.

Why would the CL expand out of Europe at all - it's a UEFA product ?!? And why would CONCACAF agree to it - surely they'd rather have their own version ? :confused:

And if it did, why would it ever look to involve North American teams, when there's leagues full of dramatically better and more glamorous sides in South America ??

Man United v Boca Juniors or Man United v Colorado K-Mart Ass-Biscuits. Hmm - now which would be the bigger draw...... :ball:

[Dodge]

Luckily for him Amedrican clubs have no history, support or identity and their goonish fans don't give a sh!t about such things.


Bit harsh. Most reports I read had their fans protesting (oh and they get better crowds than we do, so I wouldn't be using that stick to beat them with)

[Poor Student]

Luckily for him Amedrican clubs have no history, support or identity and their goonish fans don't give a sh!t about such things.


Pretty ignorant comment. There's a NY/NJ Metrostars fan on this board who was pretty upset at what had happened to his club.

[Steve Bruce]

Why would the CL expand out of Europe at all - it's a UEFA product ?!? And why would CONCACAF agree to it - surely they'd rather have their own version ? :confused:

And if it did, why would it ever look to involve North American teams, when there's leagues full of dramatically better and more glamorous sides in South America ??

Man United v Boca Juniors or Man United v Colorado K-Mart Ass-Biscuits. Hmm - now which would be the bigger draw...... :ball:

Why? MONEY, the greenstuff that makes the world go round, that's why.

Also if MLS did become a force then the big teams there will be a big draw. Just like Chelsea, 5 years ago they where a decent club with modest draw. Now they are a massive draw - Why? they have plenty of money and made a good side into a great side.

UEFA and CONCACAF would work together if they thought they could double there income.

The South American teams might have a few big name clubs, but they carry very little value with them. Is any of them in the top 100 richest clubs?

[Dodge]

I'd say a number of them are. Look at the transfers fees iinvolved in Argentina. Far more than the vast majority of european leagues could afford

[Jerry The Saint]

Pretty ignorant comment. There's a NY/NJ Metrostars fan on this board who was pretty upset at what had happened to his club.

And the history of American sport shows many examples of fans getting extremely upset over losing their team.

[dcfcsteve]

Pretty ignorant comment. There's a NY/NJ Metrostars fan on this board who was pretty upset at what had happened to his club.

OK. So explain to me then please the detailed history and tradition behind NY/NJ Metrostars - a club that was in existence for barely over a decade, yet who's team colours and name still managed to go through a number of iterations. Or maybe it only takes a decade to deliver history and tradition these days.... :rolleyes:

American soccer teams are franchises. Franchises get bought, sold and moved. This should be nothing new to followers of US sport, as there are plenty of high profile examples of this in indigenous sports there. So please explain to me how framnchises barely a decade old can't be knocked in terms of identity, roots to the local community etc ? The franchise system is intrinsically anathema to football's traditional philosophies of identity, community and roots - as those roots can be snipped at the whim of a greedy businessman. Franchise football creates tumble-weed clubs that blow in the wind of corporate and commercial self-interests, not ones with long-standing rooted identities in dedicated communities

If they don't like the franchise system, then they should push for an alternative - not just shriek with delight and pride when their area wins a franchise, and then howl with indignation when something happens to that franchise a short while later.

Regardless - i don't like what Red Bull is doing to football, as the game is the furthest thing from their mind. However - the diofference in reaction between when it happens to an American club, and when it inevitably happens to an English one, will reveal precisely the differences in history, support etc that I mentioned and that you seem keen to pretend don't exist.

[dcfcsteve]

And the history of American sport shows many examples of fans getting extremely upset over losing their team.

What should you expect when you suppport what is openly a franchise ?

What impact has suich 'upset' had on the decisions ? Zero.....

[dcfcsteve]

Have just had a look on Wikipedia to see what it had to say about all of this, and found the following :



While some fans were disappointed with the loss of Metro identity, others found fault in corporate branding, or with labeling the franchise as New York, when it plays and is headquartered in New Jersey. Other fans have welcomed the change, in light of the MetroStars' lack of success on the field, and waning support in the stands.

A real consensus there then ! :rolleyes: So much for deeply held traditions, big support and upset fans, eh boys.....?

:ball:

[Dodge]

If wikipedia said that it must be true.

[Poor Student]

"Some" and "others". Very quantifiable numbers. I'd expect better from you, Steve.

As if mere individual victim fans have the power to fundementally change the long established pattern of sport in such a large country.

[Jerry The Saint]

What should you expect when you suppport what is openly a franchise ?


Take it up with the Cork lads - I'd argue they felt quite a bit of pride when they first won the league 9 years after the franchise began.

[dcfcsteve]

"Some" and "others". Very quantifiable numbers. I'd expect better from you, Steve.

As if mere individual victim fans have the power to fundementally change the long established pattern of sport in such a large country.

And that's it ? I'd expect better from you as well PS.

Where's that sociological analysis of the history, identity, mass support and deep communtiy links of a constantly changing decade old franchise that I reqested in response to the assertion that my views here were "ignorant" ?

Individual fans in the US are happy to take the benefits of a franchise system - e.g. rushing to support a team when their area is allocated one - but not so quick to accept the downsides. Well tough titties - you can't take the rough without the smooth, as that's inherent in football....

[dcfcsteve]

Bit harsh. Most reports I read had their fans protesting (oh and they get better crowds than we do, so I wouldn't be using that stick to beat them with)

The MLS only gets better crowds than we do because the country is dramatically bigger. Per capita, their crowds are dramatically lower than ours.

The average MLS attendnace this season is only 16,500 - up from 15,500 from last year (due in large part to the 'Beckham effect'). I don't care if soccer is only the 179th most popular game over there or whatever - for a country of 300million people where the biggest partipation sport for kids is soccer, those attendances are very poor indeed.

To prove the point - per capita attendnaces are dramatically higher in Ireland than the US, even though our own league is poorly supported. On current figures, one in every 2,030 people in the Republic (incl Derry City population) attend an EL Premier game. For the MLS, the figure is only one in every 10,818. Considering the quality of stadiums over there and the number of people playing tha game, that is woeful. So the MLS does not get better crowds than we do....

[Poor Student]

Where's that sociological analysis of the history, identity, mass support and deep communtiy links of a constantly changing decade old franchise that I reqested in response to the assertion that my views here were "ignorant" ?


I know no more about that than you do. You've only supplied a vague wikipedia quote to back your view that they had a fickle fanbase. If the poster Metrostars is around he could answer you better.

[dcfcsteve]

If wikipedia said that it must be true.

No disrespect or personal slight intended - but I'd place more faith in them reporting something without sources than I would an individual I didn't know doing the same (e.g. yourself).

Your assertion that fans have been upset has no more value than their assertion that fans have been mixed in their reactions.

[Jerry The Saint]

http://foot.ie/showthread.php?t=34311

[dcfcsteve]

I know no more about that than you do. You've only supplied a vague wikipedia quote to back your view that they had a fickle fanbase. If the poster Metrostars is around he could answer you better.

A quote from Metrostars as posted on the thread URL'd above by Jerry the Sain :


....Sad day for the few Metrostars fans there are.

I rest my case.......

[Poor Student]

So because they are few in number they don't matter?

[Dodge]

Few is relative Steve. They get bigger crowds than any LOI crowd.

[jebus]

Why? MONEY, the greenstuff that makes the world go round, that's why.

Also if MLS did become a force then the big teams there will be a big draw. Just like Chelsea, 5 years ago they where a decent club with modest draw. Now they are a massive draw - Why? they have plenty of money and made a good side into a great side.

UEFA and CONCACAF would work together if they thought they could double there income.

The South American teams might have a few big name clubs, but they carry very little value with them. Is any of them in the top 100 richest clubs?

I'd agree with that (can't bring myself to say the words 'I agree with Steve Bruce :p ). I think when Man Utd were sent to the World Club Championships in 2000 that it was FIFA looking to see how people would react to a more glamourised WCC, and that they were looking to maybe expand the championships back then. I could certainly see where G14 decides that they could do business with the CONCACAF clubs, some Asian clubs and some North American sides (money spinners is your answer as to why they would be involved) and work with FIFA to create a lucrative World Club Championships

[Dodge]

They have a lucrative World Club Championship. They just decided to have only Continental Champions involved and to play it in Japan, Its worth huge money to competing clubs

[jebus]

They have a lucrative World Club Championship. They just decided to have only Continental Champions involved and to play it in Japan, Its worth huge money to competing clubs

Bit if you added in the likes of Man Utd, Liverpool, Barcelona, Real Madrid, AC and Inter Milan, Bayern Munich and Juventus, mixed them with Boca, River Plate, Flamengo, LA Galaxy, Chicago Fire, etc. within the next 5 seasons the increase in TV revenue alone would be worth a lot more to those clubs than the current WCC or European Cup

[Poor Student]

Apparently Toronto FC are interested in Neil Lennon.

[Dodge]

Sorry Jebus, didn't get what you meant originally...

I still don't see it happening. Far too many club are built on being the best in a particular area. A competition of this magnitude would mean they'd have to devote so much time to it and they'd have too much to lose nationally.

Apart from the fact UEFA etc wouldn't allow it (I know, I know... naive etc)

PS... Toronto's current manager is Mo Johnstone

[Poor Student]

Apart from the fact UEFA etc wouldn't allow it (I know, I know... naive etc)

Seeing the success of the CL FIFA were/are very much determined to get in on the act. That's what the World Club Championships in Brazil were all about. The idea was too much too soon from a somewhat megalomanic Blatter and it almost imploded on itself (plus the ISL collapse). The competition is now and back running in a more modest format. I am a fan of what is esentially a more inclusive version of the old Intercontinental Cup even if it is mainly token on behalf of the non-South American/European clubs. Don't be surprised to see FIFA attempt something on that scale again someytime.

I think it is possible that the MLS could one day challenge European hegemony of the game but only if they continue to take incremental steps. There's talk of LA Galaxy going for Zidane which would blow the arse out of this "one marquee" player rule. Hopefully they'll stick with that for a while instead of going boom and bust on the back of the Beckham deal.


PS... Toronto's current manager is Mo Johnstone

I know. He's actually failed manager of the New York Red Bulls. Apparently he attempted to get John Kennedy on loan from Celtic.

[Dodge]

Yep, Celtic were keen until they found out Toronto play on an artificial pitch (probably not the best surface for a player returning from a knee injury)

Lots of failed managers in New York. GEt the impression though that if they did win something it could really kick off in New York

[Poor Student]

I see that a playoff has been introduced between the Oceana champion and the J-League champion for the next competition.

[dcfcsteve]

So because they are few in number they don't matter?

Where did I say that ?

I merely said they had few fans (as well as no history etc), for which you accused me of being "ignorant". :rolleyes: I've provided anecdotal evidnece to back this up - but now I'm somehow saying that fans don't matter...? :confused:

Yee see - that's just your UCD insecurities coming out now.... :D

[dcfcsteve]

Few is relative Steve. They get bigger crowds than any LOI crowd.

And for a country 75 times bigger than ours, I should fcuking think so too ! :eek:

NY Red Bulls only average 10,000 at a game. For a metropolitan area of about 15m people, that is p!ss poor

[jebus]

I think it is possible that the MLS could one day challenge European hegemony of the game but only if they continue to take incremental steps. There's talk of LA Galaxy going for Zidane which would blow the arse out of this "one marquee" player rule. Hopefully they'll stick with that for a while instead of going boom and bust on the back of the Beckham deal.

I heard its more likely that Zidane will sign for Chicago, given that every club is allowed break their wage structure for one player (the Beckham rule) that will enhance their club and the MLS in general. Chicago's owner said that there are only four foreign players in the world that America gives a damn about, Beckham, Zidane, Ronaldinho and the real Ronaldo, and since Ronaldinho is on the verge of signing a new deal at Barca, and Ronaldo will see out the next two years of his Milan contract that just leaves Zidane to come out of retirement

[Dodge]

Honest to christ steve, have you no sense at all

FFS

[Metrostars]

I've been away so I havent had a chance to read this thread until now. Just some background on me, I'm from Galway and supported GUFC (still do from afar) until I moved to the US 15 years ago.

I love the game of soccer as all of us do here but for me it is important to support my local team. So as to the Franchise versus Euro-Style club debate, I and many more like me dont have any choice. It's either support NYRB or just follow the Man Utds or Milan or Barcelona by watching on TV. It's like the whole LOI argument. Why do more Irish people support English teams than Irish teams? Sure, I would prefer to have a local club that is not owned by a fizzy drink company. But thats all there is for me here.

It did hurt when the fizzy drink company bought the Metrostars. But what were the Metrostars anyway? A franchise. The original team back in 1996 was created by the Metromedia company and aptly named it the Metrostars. It was then sold to AEG, an entertainment company who also owns a few other MLS teams as well as the LA Kings hockey and a few more hockey teams in Europe. Red Bull unashamidly is using the team as a marketing tool. We the fans do not have much choice in the matter. We can either go along for the ride or sit at home at watch teams play 3000 miles away on TV. But to disparage the fans who go to games regulary and know the game just as much as other fans around the world do as "goonish", "no support or identity" and "don't give a sh!t" would be the same if I said the same thing about Cork City or Drogheda etc.

I must say however that Red Bull have done more in 13 months then the other owners did in the previous 10 years. They brought in the best US manager (Arena), the best US player (Reyna) among others and started builing a new stadium: http://www.redbullpark.com/stadium_vision.html

As for the small crowds. Well there are a ton of reasons that would take all day to explain. MLS suffers from a lot of the same stigma that the LOI does especially regardin the standard of play. Add into the mix the ANTI-soccer types and the ones who ignore it because "its a foreign game" and it is always facing an uphill battle.

[dcfcsteve]

Honest to christ steve, have you no sense at all

FFS

Clearly not. So enlighten me, oh wise one.....

[dancinpants]

OK. So explain to me then please the detailed history and tradition behind NY/NJ Metrostars - a club that was in existence for barely over a decade, yet who's team colours and name still managed to go through a number of iterations. Or maybe it only takes a decade to deliver history and tradition these days.... :rolleyes: .


So steve, are you saying that if Derry faced oblivion in 1995 after 10 years in the LOI, ye'd have understood if other fans thought, "sure f**k'em, they've only been here barely a decade and have nowt tradition, or history here"...? :confused:

[kingdom hoop]

NY Red Bulls only average 10,000 at a game. For a metropolitan area of about 15m people, that is p!ss poor

How wonderfully disingenuous of you!


OK. So explain to me then please the detailed history and tradition behind NY/NJ Metrostars - a club that was in existence for barely over a decade, yet who's team colours and name still managed to go through a number of iterations. Or maybe it only takes a decade to deliver history and tradition these days.... :rolleyes: