Angel signs for the Red Bulls

[dcfcsteve]

So steve, are you saying that if Derry faced oblivion in 1995 after 10 years in the LOI, ye'd have understood if other fans thought, "sure f**k'em, they've only been here barely a decade and have nowt tradition, or history here"...? :confused:

You know the answer to this one yourself Dancin' pants, so I've no idea why you're using such a poor example.

Derry City began playing senior football in 1928. We had 45 years in the Irish league under our belt before we joined the EL, and the whole saga over us leaving the IL shows clearly that we are a club with a strong and eventful history. Therefore, if we'd left the EL in 1995, this would still have been the case. You know this yourself.... !

Accrington Stanley would be another case in point, as they are returning to the senior ranks again next season. A team with plenty of history, events and tradition under their belt - even if they are born-again newcomers. Like energy, history can be neither be magiced-up nor destroyed, because the problem with history is that once it's happened - it's happened !

A more appropriate example would be Kildare. They only joined the senior football ranks in Ireland in 2002, have won nothing since then, have never been promoted, have a very small fanbase, and have been really rather unspectacular throughout. If they fell out of the EL tomorrow, or in 5 years time, then it would be completely fair to say that they had no history or tradition. An uneventful 5 years plying their trade in our first division has created neitehr for them. The same could not be said of Bray or Longford, for example - who in 22/23 years have carved out a corner of the historyu books for themselves via cups, promotions, titles, European exploits (inclspectacular failures) etc. Hell - Longford even have a tradition now of being rubbish in Europe !

That's the pain in the arse thing about history and tradition you see - you need time and events to develop/create them. Becoming a senior football team does not magicallty bestow either upon a team - as the likes of NY/NJ Metrostars, Dublin City (who ignored their history) and Kildare County have shown....

[dcfcsteve]

How wonderfully disingenuous of you!

How ? :confused:

Is 10,000 a good crowd for a metropolitan area twice the size of London, in a country 75 times the size of Ireland ???

[Metrostars]

Sorry Jebus, didn't get what you meant originally...

I still don't see it happening. Far too many club are built on being the best in a particular area. A competition of this magnitude would mean they'd have to devote so much time to it and they'd have too much to lose nationally.

Apart from the fact UEFA etc wouldn't allow it (I know, I know... naive etc)

PS... Toronto's current manager is Mo Johnstone

No need for MLS teams to join the CL. First off, they are not up to that level. Secondly we have the CCC - the Concacaf Champions Cup the equivalent of the CL. The winners of that go to the WCC.

On Mo Johnstone, he seemed to be a good manager during the course of a game but his talent assessment ability is very questionable.

[Dodge]

Clearly not. So enlighten me, oh wise one.....

No point you never listen to anybody...

[Metrostars]

How ? :confused:

Is 10,000 a good crowd for a metropolitan area twice the size of London, in a country 75 times the size of Ireland ???

Well of course you are right. 10,000 is a pitiful attendance. But I don't give a shyte whether 10,000 come to a game against Columbus or 80,000 fill up Giants Stadium like when we played Barcelona last August. The 10,000 fans who do come are not any less of a fan than the 2000 who go to see Derry City every other week. They still have the same commitment.

[Dodge]

Spot on metrostars. In fact they've the same commitment as the 8-900 that supported Derry (or Pats ot Galway etc etc) when they were rubbish a few seasons ago

[dcfcsteve]

No point you never listen to anybody...

Woo-hoo ! I only listen to those with something of value to say Dodge. Some day you'll surprise me.... :D

Want a hand putting those toys back in yer pram...?

[dcfcsteve]

Well of course you are right. 10,000 is a pitiful attendance. But I don't give a shyte whether 10,000 come to a game against Columbus or 80,000 fill up Giants Stadium like when we played Barcelona last August. The 10,000 fans who do come are not any less of a fan than the 2000 who go to see Derry City every other week. They still have the same commitment.

I don't disagree with you.

This whole bullsh!t series of posts arose because Poor Student accused me of being "ignorant" for saying NY/NJ had poor support, no history and no tradition. When the facts clearly support this assertion, and I've posted the rationale to show that (I note that he's gone quiet since then...).

So can we quit with the whole bleeding heart 'one of my fans is just as good as one of yours, sniffle' nonesense, as it's not the issue here.

[Dodge]

This whole bullsh!t series of posts arose because Poor Student accused me of being "ignorant" for saying NY/NJ had poor support, no history and no tradition

Wrong as usual, he called you ignorent for saying their "goonish fans don't care"


But believe your own little story...

[kingdom hoop]

How ? :confused:

Is 10,000 a good crowd for a metropolitan area twice the size of London, in a country 75 times the size of Ireland ???

Look up the meaning of the word and it might make some more sense.:p

10,000 people is a reasonable crowd for a franchise that as you say is so devoid of history and tradition.


exacerbated by the anonymity and lack of community spirit of such a big city

[Steve Bruce]

I've been away so I havent had a chance to read this thread until now. Just some background on me, I'm from Galway and supported GUFC (still do from afar) until I moved to the US 15 years ago.

I love the game of soccer as all of us do here but for me it is important to support my local team. So as to the Franchise versus Euro-Style club debate, I and many more like me dont have any choice. It's either support NYRB or just follow the Man Utds or Milan or Barcelona by watching on TV. It's like the whole LOI argument. Why do more Irish people support English teams than Irish teams? Sure, I would prefer to have a local club that is not owned by a fizzy drink company. But thats all there is for me here.

It did hurt when the fizzy drink company bought the Metrostars. But what were the Metrostars anyway? A franchise. The original team back in 1996 was created by the Metromedia company and aptly named it the Metrostars. It was then sold to AEG, an entertainment company who also owns a few other MLS teams as well as the LA Kings hockey and a few more hockey teams in Europe. Red Bull unashamidly is using the team as a marketing tool. We the fans do not have much choice in the matter. We can either go along for the ride or sit at home at watch teams play 3000 miles away on TV. But to disparage the fans who go to games regulary and know the game just as much as other fans around the world do as "goonish", "no support or identity" and "don't give a sh!t" would be the same if I said the same thing about Cork City or Drogheda etc.

I must say however that Red Bull have done more in 13 months then the other owners did in the previous 10 years. They brought in the best US manager (Arena), the best US player (Reyna) among others and started builing a new stadium: http://www.redbullpark.com/stadium_vision.html

As for the small crowds. Well there are a ton of reasons that would take all day to explain. MLS suffers from a lot of the same stigma that the LOI does especially regardin the standard of play. Add into the mix the ANTI-soccer types and the ones who ignore it because "its a foreign game" and it is always facing an uphill battle.

Is the GAA in america to:D (for GAA fans I'm only jesting so please take it as intended)

[Steve Bruce]

I don't disagree with you.

This whole bullsh!t series of posts arose because Poor Student accused me of being "ignorant" for saying NY/NJ had poor support, no history and no tradition. When the facts clearly support this assertion, and I've posted the rationale to show that (I note that he's gone quiet since then...).

So can we quit with the whole bleeding heart 'one of my fans is just as good as one of yours, sniffle' nonesense, as it's not the issue here.

Every team has to start somewhere and if some one has supported a team for 10 years no matter if that was from it's founding season, will have a love for the team and will justifibly be very upset if there team, that they love has went to the wall. Franchised or not.

Also this thing about 15 million people live there with only 10,000 going to the football. Let's just think about this for a moment. In America they have 100 times more attractions than this island. The LOI is competing against GAA.

In America they are competing with, European football on tv, they are competing against American sports, Basketball, American Football & Ice Hockey.

That's not to mention the amount that follow wrestling, golf & tennis. All things that people on this island do not have to compete with(Excluding European football)

Although the club is a very young club, they have a history albeit not a very big one.

MK Dons(Wimbledon) have a history, but they only get crowds the size of Linfields/Derrys/Shelbourne/Cork etc. Which club would be more valuable to the league? One with history but nothing else to offer, or one with 3 times the support with financial backing and no history? I know which one I'd rather have in my league.

[Metrostars]

Every team has to start somewhere and if some one has supported a team for 10 years no matter if that was from it's founding season, will have a love for the team and will justifibly be very upset if there team, that they love has went to the wall. Franchised or not.

Also this thing about 15 million people live there with only 10,000 going to the football. Let's just think about this for a moment. In America they have 100 times more attractions than this island. The LOI is competing against GAA.

In America they are competing with, European football on tv, they are competing against American sports, Basketball, American Football & Ice Hockey.

That's not to mention the amount that follow wrestling, golf & tennis. All things that people on this island do not have to compete with(Excluding European football)

Well there should be better crowds than 10,000 in any case. There are more then enough immigrants in the Tri-state area whose first sport is soccer.

To expand on my earlier post about the reasons why MLS is poorly supported....

- Most immigrants whos first love is soccer whether they are European or Latino brush aside MLS as being a poor standard. They are correct in way but the only way the standard can get better is more money. Money comes from better fan support. It's a big circle.

- As dcfcsteve rightly pointed out - lack of tradition. Yes this is also a factor among immigrants.

- Poor marketing by MLS - as opposed to European clubs who are more of whole community club, MLS clubs used to market mainly to families and youth teams. Thus adding to the label of it only being a kids sport by anti-soccer types.

- Americanized gimmicks at the start of MLS such as the countdown clock (90 minutes down to 0), the shootout after a draw etc that the soccer purists hated. These gimmicks are gone now but that stuff did drive away a lot of people.

- Lack of/no coverage in the media. Turn on the local NBC/ABC/CBS/FOX news in New York and in the sport section they will cover baseball, basketball, American football, ice hockey, golf and nothing else. If people dont see soccer in the news it is perceived as unimportant. Coverage is gradually getting better on ESPN though.

- Small crowds in huge stadiums. It isnt a lot of fun going to Giants Stadium where the capacity is 80,000 with only 10,000 people in it. Poor atmoshere also drives people away. Not to mention the American football lines on the ground starting in August showing up the team as being a second class tenant at the stadium. This is being remedied by new smaller stadiums (20K=30K) but this is a slow process. This will also help with the bottom line as teams in NFL stadiums do not earn any ancillary money e.g. parking, concessions etc plus also have to pay rent ($100K per game at GS).

- As we touched on earlier, the Anti-Soccer types. I really do not think anything can be done about these people. They are usually dormant more of the time but they wake up during every world cup. But they are not needed anyway.

These are just a few off the top of my head.

[Poor Student]

(I note that he's gone quiet since then...).


Well, wise man once said: (http://foot.ie/showpost.php?p=668123&postcount=22)


Don't fancy a seven page "discussion" with you Steve so we'll leave it at that. Thanks.