When did your history begin?

[EalingGreen]

[This is a genuine query, btw, not a wind-up or an attempt to provoke a row]

Another thread ("And you thought Stan had it Bad"), where a couple of posters debated the history of the Czechoslovakia/Czech Republic/Slovakia teams and the "heritage" passed down from before the Velvet Revolution, caused me to wonder: at what stage do ROI fans consider their history begins?

Is it 1880, when the Irish Football Association was founded? Or is it 1921, with the setting up of the Football Association of the Irish Free State?

I must say that as an NI fan, the thought has never ever crossed my mind that our team "began" following partition. In fact, I'm just old enough to remember games at Windsor (early 70's) where "C'mon Ireland" was occasionally shouted, or "Ireland" was used in songs where "Northern Ireland" wouldn't scan (the use of "Ulster" instead is a recent development).
In fact, I think it may have been as late as 1970 (?) when the IFA stopped using "Ireland" as the official team name in British Championship matches, having been instructed two decades earlier by FIFA that for World Cup and European Championship matches, they must be "Northern Ireland" (and the FAI should use "Republic of Ireland").
And no one has ever questioned our celebrating our Centenary in 1980, or our "125" two years ago (nor should they, imo).

But the position in the Republic is different. Naturally enough, you got your separate footballing identity after partition and should be proud of that. Nonetheless, Southern teams competed in the original Irish League and Irish Cup (Shelbourne winning the latter?) and Ireland internationals were occasionally played in Dublin (Dalymount and Lansdowne!). Plus, of course, many Southern-born players represented Ireland over the 40 years prior to partition. (Curiously, the FAI website's otherwise excellent history section refers to the FAIFS team as "Ireland" as though the IFA's team didn't exist e.g. "1930s Ireland's first World Cup campaign in 1934 was a short-lived event, as a 4-4 draw with Belgium (Paddy Moore got all four of Ireland's goals, a record to this day)" - haven't they heard of Joe Bambrick? ;) )

Any thoughts?

[theworm2345]

But the position in the Republic is different. Naturally enough, you got your separate footballing identity after partition and should be proud of that. Nonetheless, Southern teams competed in the original Irish League and Irish Cup (Shelbourne winning the latter?) and Ireland internationals were occasionally played in Dublin (Dalymount and Lansdowne!). Plus, of course, many Southern-born players represented Ireland over the 40 years prior to partition. (Curiously, the FAI website's otherwise excellent history section refers to the FAIFS team as "Ireland" as though the IFA's team didn't exist e.g. "1930s Ireland's first World Cup campaign in 1934 was a short-lived event, as a 4-4 draw with Belgium (Paddy Moore got all four of Ireland's goals, a record to this day)" - haven't they heard of Joe Bambrick? ;) )

Any thoughts?

March 21, 1926 for me (I believe it was March 21), and Don Givens tied that 4 goal record sometime in the 70s

[Poor Student]

Nonetheless, Southern teams competed in the original Irish League and Irish Cup (Shelbourne winning the latter?)

Just as an aside, to add to eL clubs who won IFA trophies before partition, UCD won the IFA Intermediate Cup in 1915.


Any thoughts?

I don't have any real thoughts on the matter. Nothing significant on an international scale happened before partition or the decades following it. By the time Northern Ireland had qualified for the WC partition had long taken place.

[stojkovic]

March 21, 1926 for me (I believe it was March 21), and Don Givens tied that 4 goal record sometime in the 70s

Paddy Moore's were in a World Cup Qualifier, Givens in a Euro Qualifier.

Republic of Ireland's football history started after partition. FAI was only formed in 1921 or 1922. Our first game was as stated in 1926.

I would attribute all results before that date to the North as 90% of matches were played in Belfast under the IFA.

When the North qualified in 82 and 86, I was delighted for them (and jealous) but I had no affinity for the team. They weren't my team.

[theworm2345]

Republic of Ireland's football history started after partition. FAI was only formed in 1921 or 1922. Our first game was as stated in 1926.

Hehe, looks like we finally agree on something
But with the Moore/Givens thing, if you go by most goals in a match, its even, if you go by most goals in a World Cup Qual. its Moore, Euro Qual. its Givens :)

[CollegeTillIDie]

Our history in football, in both parts of the Island, even predates the founding of the IFA in 1880. The whole shebang is tied up together. A number of developments in the world game can be traced to here. One of the most famous being the invention of the goal net by a Belfast man in 1890/91 I think his name was Dunlop. The Setanta Cup is merely the latest in a long line of cross border tournaments that dates back to shortly after partition. Many teams from Dublin participated in IFA organised tournaments prior to 1921. There is a distinct possibility that there would have been a split in the football ranks even if the political one had not occurred. The clubs in what is now the Republic being of the view , that the IFA was too greater Belfast centric in it's decision making process. ( A problem teams based West of the Bann occasionally complain about to this very day)

The island of Ireland has qualified for the World Cup in part in 1958, 1982, 1986, 1990, 1994 and 2002. And I believe that the North is on the cusp of another great era with the present team under Lawrie Sanchez. I know a lot of people down here do not rate the Irish League or indeed the Northern Ireland team, but I believe the current Northern team is one of the best that the wee North has produced and may become the first side from the six to make it to a European Championship finals next summer, and good luck to all concerned with that !

P.S. I heard of Joe Bambrick, and he scored half his tally of international goals in one single game... he ended his international career with 12 goals. Colin Clarke broke that with 13 ( Bestie only managed 9 ), David Healy has blown all previous scoring records out of the water.

[stojkovic]

the invention of the goal net by a Belfast man in 1890/91 I think his name was Dunlop.

Is that the same guy who invented the rubber tyre ?

[stojkovic]

Hehe, looks like we finally agree on something


We are not actually.

Northern Ireland lay claim to 'Ireland's' history (pre-partion) in the same way as the Czech Republic do, so we are still in dis-agreement.

Sorry.

This is probably unique in that The Republic is the larger state in size and population but the smaller state claims the football history.

[theworm2345]

We are not actually.

Northern Ireland lay claim to 'Ireland's' history (pre-partion) in the same way as the Czech Republic do, so we are still in dis-agreement.

Sorry.

This is probably unique in that The Republic is the larger state in size and population but the smaller state claims the football history.
Yes, but, forgetting about the Czechs for a minute, I agree that the Republic's history started post-partition, as I believe you said you do as well. Thats what we agree on (I think).

[lopez]

24 October 1878.


I don't have any real thoughts on the matter. Nothing significant on an international scale happened before partition or the decades following it. By the time Northern Ireland had qualified for the WC partition had long taken place.Except that Ireland won the last British Championship before WW1

We are not actually.

Northern Ireland lay claim to 'Ireland's' history (pre-partion) in the same way as the Czech Republic do, so we are still in dis-agreement.

Sorry.

This is probably unique in that The Republic is the larger state in size and population but the smaller state claims the football history.It can because it has the pre-partition association. The same happened in Germany upon its division and re-unification.

[stojkovic]

It can because it has the pre-partition association. The same happened in Germany upon its division and re-unification.

I dont see the comparison that you are making.

West Germany was the larger of the two states and (I assume) ran the association, switching it from Berlin to Bonn/Frankfurt or wherever. And the history of the German Empire (as it was called then) is complex with the unification of Germany in 1870 from which was predominately a state called Prussia.

My point is that 'Ireland' is probably unique in that the smaller of the two states (N.Ireland) kept the association (IFA) and the history and the larger state (Rep. of Ireland) had to form a new one.

This did not happen with the break-up of the USSR, Yugoslavia or Czechoslavakia where the dominant state took the credit for past histories and achievements.

My biggest regret of the political division that happened in the early 90's is the break-up of that great Red Star Belgrade team.

[Lionel Ritchie]

While I acknowledge "the split" as being a massive event in the history of Irish Football I'm in no way conflicted in tracing our origin back to 1880* and I consider any results in that era to be "ours" in the broad sense.

Much like the political border I tend to consider the association split to be an administrative technicality.

*One of my favourite whooping switches for my GAA friends who ludicrously claim their code is somehow more reflective of the archaic, antique, "indigenous" game played here is to remind them that the Irish Football Association pre-dates the GAA leaving the Gaelic code adherents with zero claim on any franchise for Irish football.

[lopez]

I dont see the comparison that you are making.

West Germany was the larger of the two states and (I assume) ran the association, switching it from Berlin to Bonn/Frankfurt or wherever. And the history of the German Empire (as it was called then) is complex with the unification of Germany in 1870 from which was predominately a state called Prussia.

My point is that 'Ireland' is probably unique in that the smaller of the two states (N.Ireland) kept the association (IFA) and the history and the larger state (Rep. of Ireland) had to form a new one.

This did not happen with the break-up of the USSR, Yugoslavia or Czechoslavakia where the dominant state took the credit for past histories and achievements.

My biggest regret of the political division that happened in the early 90's is the break-up of that great Red Star Belgrade team.The IFA was based in Belfast in 1921, and always was beforehand. The football associations of the Yugoslavia didn't have its HQ in Zagreb nor the Czechoslovak its HQ in Bratislava.

The bulk of top level Irish football in 1921 was played in Belfast. Belfast can rightly call itself the cradle of Irish football, just as England can call itself the cradle of world football. Doesn't mean that they are now the best. But back in 1920 only Shelbourne and Bohemians and maybe one or two Dublin based British Army Regiment teams (none that I remembered were actually 'Irish' regiments like the Connaught Rangers) had ever competed in the Irish League.

The IFA received the backing of the powerful three British associations at the Liverpool conference of October 1923 which confirmed that the rightfull association in Ireland was the IFA and it that only they should pick the international team to represent Ireland. This they no longer do, but it gave them continuance in what was up until the expansion of the European Championships in 1980, the second most important tournament that the British 'national' teams would compete in.

[EalingGreen]

Much like the political border I tend to consider the association split to be an administrative technicality.


Sorry, Lionel, but we've hardly room on our bandwagon for all the Northerners who are trying to scamble aboard these days, never mind Mexicans (even wee ones).

So whilst I don't blame you for trying, I'm afraid you'll have to support your own team. Otherwise, you'll only come across like e.g. an Evertonian claiming "ownership" over Liverpool, which thinking runs contrary to all of Nature's Laws and will bring down the wrath of the Football God Ziggur-Zaggur upon your head...:eek:

[GavinZac]

Why can't the two associations share the history? :confused:

[EalingGreen]

Why can't the two associations share the history? :confused:

For the post-1921 period, imo there's nothing much to share, since we're talking about two separate Associations and two separate teams, therefore two separate "histories". (Notwithstanding that both Associations picked players from the other's territory from time to time in the 30-odd years following the breakaway by the FAIFS)

Regarding the pre-1921 period, as an NI (i.e. IFA) man, I see that as an integral/inseparable part of my own history.

If ROI (FAI) fans wish equally to share that history, then I can have no objection - their Southern forebears contributed to the Irish Football Association in exactly the same way as my Northern* forebears.

The whole point of my opening this thread was to find out whether present-day ROI fans feel or want "ownership" of our former joint pre-1921 history. It's not for me to say whether you should or shouldn't.


* - As it happens, on one side of my family, my Grandparents were from Tipperary and Leitrim, settling in what is now NI in the years not long before partition. But whilst I am interested in their story/origins etc, I can honestly say I don't feel any greater affinity to the ROI than I do e.g. to Scotland, from where the other side of my family originally came, some centuries previously.
Anyhow, I don't want this thread to deviate along another boring political route; I make that point merely to demonstrate where my affinities lie generally, which leads in the football context to my being neither "British" nor "Irish", but 100% "Norn Iron"!

[dcfcsteve]

My point is that 'Ireland' is probably unique in that the smaller of the two states (N.Ireland) kept the association (IFA) and the history and the larger state (Rep. of Ireland) had to form a new one.

This did not happen with the break-up of the USSR, Yugoslavia or Czechoslavakia where the dominant state took the credit for past histories and achievements.

Relative size of the countries is irrelevant. The key here is that it was the Free State that broke away from the all-Ireland football association that existed prior to partition. Had they not done so, we would still have a single football body today - just like we do in Rugby, Cricket, Hockey...

Because the Free State broke away, it was never going to be in any position to lay claim to the history or honours prior to then, nor would it have wanted to. That's what happens when you break away - you are consciously stating that 'we're different' than the others.

I see no peculiarity in this at all, and for the me the Republic of Ireland team began in 1921.

P.S. Does the Republic of Ireland as a nation lay claim to all the parts of combined British history that involved it prior to partition e.g. wars against Spain, Portugal and France, the Royal family, Magna Carta, the Empire, Slavery etc etc ? Or does it just view itself as having started when it broke away in 1922 ?

[stojkovic]

P.S. Does the Republic of Ireland as a nation lay claim to all the parts of combined British history that involved it prior to partition e.g. wars against Spain, Portugal and France, the Royal family, Magna Carta, the Empire, Slavery etc etc ? Or does it just view itself as having started when it broke away in 1922 ?
Some people do actually take pride in the fact that thousands of Irishmen fought and died defending/expanding the British Empire in the Crimea, Boer War, WW1 etc. As nations our history is undeniably linked and Irish people of all walks of life contributed to building the British Empire. That is a fact. Some of the worst cnuts like Wellington and Montgomery were Irish. Although they didnt like to admit it.

We can debate this for months.

Anyway I do take your point that it was us that broke away and formed our own FA. As I said before 90% of the matches before partition were played in Belfast so it made sense. I just think that whatever the reasons it is unusual in global terms. An Irish solution I suppose.

[Erstwhile Bóz]

Footballwise, the sterling jurisdiction has always been where it's at historically, and it could hold its own in the early days of the sport in the Victorian era. Soccer was a long way from being the organized sport of the people, the way it (sort of) is now, in the rest of the country pre-'21. Jesus, cricket had more claim.

And the split! This ****e about team-selection bias being the major factor smacks of half-arsed retrospective ballsology: was 1921 the International Year of It Finally Dawning on Salt-of-the-Earth People Where the Football Internationals Were Played and Where All the Players Were From or was it the climax of the War of Independence? :confused:. Enlightenment would also be welcome on why other sports, less associated with the celebrated working-class-solidarity types, have been able to work through sometimes quite intense periods in the interim of clear weighting/favouritism from one or other section of the country.

Looking back, the most depressing sight in sport in recent (early '90s) times was a crowd of FAI f*ckers singing at a crowd of IFA fans that "there's only one team in Ireland", in order that they might display their 'nationalism'. At least the crowd at the cricket World Cup with Stormont flags at one end of the ground and leprechaun hats at the other, different as they undeniably were, were shouting for the same team.

Both "international" teams on this island — and yes, given the whole FAI poaching/GFA nationality/passport 'scandal' complications it's not simply a jurisdiction matter but rather one of a de facto national nationalist team versus a de facto national unionist team — therefore, can go and have a big sheite for themselves. Neither of them represent any part of any decent Irishman that should with good conscience be shown off on a world stage.

[gspain]

Most people consider the history of the national team to go back to the formation of the state and the RoI national team. The 1924 Olympics were really our first game snot Italy 26. We class those as amateur Internationals but I digress.

International football wa splayed in Dublin back as far as england at Lansdowne in 1900. I think it is because the FAI actually broke away from the IFA that these games are in many ways airbrushed from our football history. Shels and Bohs etc still rightly honour the trophies they won in the years before we got independence.

[galwayhoop]

Both "international" teams on this island — and yes, given the whole FAI poaching/GFA nationality/passport 'scandal' complications it's not simply a jurisdiction matter but rather one of a de facto national nationalist team versus a de facto national unionist team — therefore, can go and have a big sheite for themselves. Neither of them represent any part of any decent Irishman that should with good conscience be shown off on a world stage.

i am happy to support Ireland with good conscience and feel that I am a decent Irishman.

Who represents you? Bohs??

[lopez]

The breakaway FAI was not a response to partition. The Anglo-Irish Treaty, agreeing partition, was signed in November 1921. The FAI was formed in June 1921. While initially seeing itself as a rival to the IFA - a sort of American League to the National League - with hindsight, it was more an attempt to divide football along national/sectarian lines - 1923 FAI Cup winners Alton United were from Belfast. While shades of this remains, the FAI was forced to fit itself in with partition by the Liverpool Conference, and rename itself the FAIFS.

Incidentally, it's not just a shared history, but shared shirts too. Both Irelands before and immediately after WW2 wore identical 'rugby' shirts in games with the shield and shamrocks as the badge.

[historynut]

Not willing to get into debate,but would strongly reccomend a read of "ASSOCIATION FOOTBALL and society in pre-partition Ireland" by Neal Garnham to get an understanding and the events that lead to the establishment of the FAI. Also just what length's were taken, that almost resulted in Ireland being reunified at soccer for Internationals, similar to Rugby,Cricket and Hockey. Sure copies can be obtained from a good EASONS.

[Lionel Ritchie]

Sorry, Lionel, but we've hardly room on our bandwagon for all the Northerners who are trying to scamble aboard these days, never mind Mexicans (even wee ones).

Didn't phrase it particularly well. The general point I was driving at would've been better explained with an example. So here's the example. If there had been a World Cup in the years prior to the split and if Ireland had won the World Cup in that era -I would expect both teams to have a gold star over the crests on their shirts.

[youngirish]

Sorry, Lionel, but we've hardly room on our bandwagon for all the Northerners who are trying to scamble aboard these days, never mind Mexicans (even wee ones).

So whilst I don't blame you for trying, I'm afraid you'll have to support your own team. Otherwise, you'll only come across like e.g. an Evertonian claiming "ownership" over Liverpool, which thinking runs contrary to all of Nature's Laws and will bring down the wrath of the Football God Ziggur-Zaggur upon your head...:eek:

What's this Mexican thing anyway? Is it that you consider us a poorer, less economically developed, more backward region south of your border as in you are the United States to our Mexico?

If so I think a better, more modern comparison would be with the 2 Koreas. To the north of us is the far more econimically deficient, paranoid, isolated, small minded group with their cult leader (Paisley) running the show compared to our modern, economically successfull, foward looking nation. So in future it would be more accurate for you to refer to us as South Koreans than Mexicans.

As for supporting Northern Ireland. The majority of wee Mexicans as you put it that I know don't even care how the North team does with the exception of a small handful that like to see you lose (after reading your posts for the last couple of years and those of your countrymen on your preferred haunt ourweecountry.com I've drifted from the former group to the latter). I also doubt too many Nationalists up north are jumping back on board following your brief (6 months) succesful period so I don't know where all these extra fans are coming from.

Sweden away, Spain away, even Latvia away? Sanchez taking the Fulham job full time (it'll happen). The fall is coming EalingGreen, not that you have any great heights to fall form. You haven't qualified for anything in over 2 decades.

On the plus side after all your slagging a few months ago we are back on track after beating those powers of world football Wales 1-0 at home. The team that hammered you in the same fixture just last season.

[dcfcsteve]

What's this Mexican thing anyway? Is it that you consider us a poorer, less economically developed, more backward region south of your border as in you are the United States to our Mexico?

If so I think a better, more modern comparison would be with the 2 Koreas. To the north of us is the far more econimcally deficient, paranoid, isolated, small minded group with their cult leader (Paisley) running the show compared to our modern, economically successful, foward looking nation. So in future it would be more accurate for you to refer to us as South Koreans than Mexicans.



As Sadaam Hussein said to the devil in 'South park - The Movie' : "Awhhhh ; take it easy fella !".

It's 'Mexicans' because you're south of the border.

Some people may like to associate the relative economic situations that existed prior to c. 1995 as the reasaon for the name, but geography is the main reason. Nationalists in particular would take no real joy at using a name that berated the south in relation to the north (apart, of course, from 'Free State Barstewards'..... :D )

[EalingGreen]

What's this Mexican thing anyway? Is it that you consider us a poorer, less economically developed, more backward region south of your border as in you are the United States to our Mexico?

If so I think a better, more modern comparison would be with the 2 Koreas. To the north of us is the far more econimcally deficient, paranoid, isolated, small minded group with their cult leader (Paisley) running the show compared to our modern, economically successful, foward looking nation. So in future it would be more accurate for you to refer to us as South Koreans than Mexicans.

As for supporting Northern Ireland. The majority of wee Mexicans as you put it that I know don't even care how the North team does with the exception of a small handful that like to see you lose (after reading your posts for the last couple of years and those of your countrymen on your preferred haunt ourweecountry.com I've drifted from the former group to the latter). I also doubt too many Nationalists up north are jumping back on board following your brief (6 months) succesful period so I don't know where all these extra fans are coming from.

Sweden away, Spain away, even Latvia away? Sanchez taking the Fulham job full time (it'll happen). The fall is coming EalingGreen, not that you have any great heights to fall form. You haven't qualified for anything in over 2 decades.

On the plus side after all your slagging a few months ago we are back on track after beating those powers of world football Wales 1-0 at home. The team that hammered you in the same fixture just last season.

To quote DCFC Steve:
"Awhhhh ; take it easy fella !"

My (wee) Mexican quip was an in-joke which I'll leave to Lionel R to reveal, if he wishes.

And the previous post of mine to which you refer (USA/NI vs Mexico/ROI) was genuinely meant to be humourous - even if no-one else may actually have thought it funny.

Anyhow, as I thought I made clear earlier on this thread, I really don't wish this to degenerate into a Yah! Boo! Sucks! slanging match of the "My Team's Better Than Yours" variety. Instead, I opened it purely to try to learn the attitude of ROI fans towards the (united) Ireland team prior to partition. That's all.

So, any thoughts, YoungIrish? (After you've calmed down, that is :cool: )

[EalingGreen]

Didn't phrase it particularly well. The general point I was driving at would've been better explained with an example. So here's the example. If there had been a World Cup in the years prior to the split and if Ireland had won the World Cup in that era -I would expect both teams to have a gold star over the crests on their shirts.

Fair enough.

[ifk101]

And the previous post of mine to which you refer (USA/NI vs Mexico/ROI) was genuinely meant to be humourous - even if no-one else may actually have thought it funny.

So the comparison is between a country with no real footballing tradition (USA) and a country who's national sport is presumably football (Mexico). I suppose this answers your question "When did your history begin?"

[Lionel Ritchie]

My (wee) Mexican quip was an in-joke which I'll leave to Lionel R to reveal, if he wishes.
Pretty certain I've revealed it more than once here already -but just in case here goes -I was a registered member of the OWC forum before I happened upon foot.ie, waccoe or anywhere I'm likely to be found chucking my orb about.

Of my own free will and volition I took the handle "Wee Mexican" on the French Canadians;) board (OWC).

However when I then joined foot.ie the "Wee Mexican" tag seemed ...kind of pointless actually so I revealed my true identity ...the all singing all dancing (on the ceiling) blind bird groping lecturer/pervert Lionel Ritchie. :cool:

[EalingGreen]

So the comparison is between a country with no real footballing tradition (USA) and a country who's national sport is presumably football (Mexico). I suppose this answers your question "When did your history begin?"

Arguably the Mexican national game is Pok-a-Tok:

http://www.greatdreams.com/mayan/mayan-games.htm

This was a brutal game, involving serious injury, death or even ritual killing of the losers, which was played by the indigenous people, the Mayans, long before football was introduced by the colonisers. Ring any bells? ;)
(Clue: For "Maya" read "Mayo"?)

Anyhow, to get back to the original point of the thread, am I to take it that as an ROI fan, you feel no affinity towards the "Ireland" team prior to partition? Or, since it was an all-Ireland affair, maybe you feel "ownership" in the same way as NI fans do?

Just curious. :cool:

[galwayhoop]

If so I think a better, more modern comparison would be with the 2 Koreas. To the north of us is the far more econimcally deficient, paranoid, isolated, small minded group with their cult leader (Paisley) running the show compared to our modern, economically successful, foward looking nation. So in future it would be more accurate for you to refer to us as South Koreans than Mexicans.

North Koreans - classic :D :D

[youngirish]

Anyhow, as I thought I made clear earlier on this thread, I really don't wish this to degenerate into a Yah! Boo! Sucks! slanging match of the "My Team's Better Than Yours" variety. Instead, I opened it purely to try to learn the attitude of ROI fans towards the (united) Ireland team prior to partition. That's all.

So, any thoughts, YoungIrish? (After you've calmed down, that is :cool: )

Just not too fond the wee Mexican jibe EalingGreen. I doubt if I passed a similar remark (North Koreans) on ourweecountry.com would it go down too well.

As for the serious question I consider the current ROI team to have been born post the formation of the Irish Free State in the same way as I see my current country to have been formed (re-formed) at this same time. I also consider the current Northern Ireland team to have been formed at that same time though I'm aware for about 20 years after this period players could and often were capped by both teams.

The previous team that existed prior to the Irish Free State was to me a different body than both today that represented a different country (or in actuality a region of the UK and not an independent nation) that no longer exists. For this reason I wouldn't associate it with either organisation though I can understand why people in the North would more closely identify it with their team than we would in the South as their team in essence is still one of four representing the UK whereas ours represents a different independent nation.

For the record I know I'm in the minority but I'd prefer if all our sporting bodies were kept seperate until the day a united, independent Ireland was a reality (if ever) though tbh I'm not too bothered about the other sports as I'm not a big fan of any bar my beloved football. It just looks a bit silly to me when I see that silly Shamrock flag representing us in the cricket or when I hear that rubbish Phil Coulter song in the Rugby instead of Amhran na bhFiann. I appreciate, however, that with the current situation it's not appropriate for us to be singing our national anthem or flying our tricolour at certain times in the unified sports. Anyone agree with me?

[ifk101]

Anyhow, to get back to the original point of the thread, am I to take it that as an ROI fan, you feel no affinity towards the "Ireland" team prior to partition? Or, since it was an all-Ireland affair, maybe you feel "ownership" in the same way as NI fans do?

Well I don't refer to the team I support as ROI. I call them Ireland. Does that answer your question? I also don't refer to the Ireland C team as NI and, like all Irish teams, I hope Ireland, Ireland B and Ireland C win all their matches. I can understand that as your loyalities lie with Ireland C you take great pride in the wee victories against more illustrious counterparts as this is seen as justification for a Ireland C team. But as a supporter of Ireland, you can understand that I don't have any rivalry with the Ireland C team. On the contrary, I want them to do well.

The "ownership feeling" you mention is not something I can relate to or tend to dwell on - I don't see its relevancy in the modern day. But if I did live in pre 1920 Ireland and if I as a pre 1920 man had the same values as a 2007 Irishman, I would associated myself with a United Ireland football team - without question. But alas my focus is on the now - and my hope is that Ireland wins its next qualifying game. As you know, our manager is Stan the Man and I hope you can undersand Stan's managerial skills give me more worry than the origins of the national side.

And as an aside, the Korean comparison is much more apt that the USA and Mexico - esp. given the high number of defectors from the North to the South, and not vice versa ...

[EalingGreen]

Just not too fond the wee Mexican jibe EalingGreen. I doubt if I passed a similar remark (North Koreans) on ourweecountry.com would it go down too well.
As for the serious question I consider the current ROI team to have been born post the formation of the Irish Free State in the same way as I see my current country to have been formed (re-formed) at this same time. I also consider the current Northern Ireland team to have been formed at that same time though I'm aware for about 20 years after this period players could and often were capped by both teams.

The previous team that existed prior to the Irish Free State was to me a different body than both today that represented a different country (or in actuality a region of the UK and not an independent nation) that no longer exists. For this reason I wouldn't associate it with either organisation though I can understand why people in the North would more closely identify it with their team than we would in the South as their team in essence is still one of four representing the UK whereas ours represents a different independent nation.

For the record I know I'm in the minority but I'd prefer if all our sporting bodies were kept seperate until the day a united, independent Ireland was a reality (if ever) though tbh I'm not too bothered about the other sports as I'm not a big fan of any bar my beloved football. It just looks a bit silly to me when I see that silly Shamrock flag representing us in the cricket or when I hear that rubbish Phil Coulter song in the Rugby instead of Amhran na bhFiann. I appreciate, however, that with the current situation it's not appropriate for us to be singing our national anthem or flying our tricolour at certain times in the unified sports. Anyone agree with me?

Re the "Mexican" jibe, your sensitivity reminds me of the old story of the Duchess of Devonshire conducting her annual tour of the Estate, the only opportunity she got to meet the plebs who worked the land for her. She came to one old boy and asked him what he was doing.
"I'm shifting this ere dung from here over to there, Your Ladyship. And when I've finished with that, I'll shift that there dung from over there to over here. And by the time I've finished that, I suppose the cows will have produced some more dung for me to shift..."
Her sensibilities offended, the Duchess said to the farmer's wife:
"Can't you persuade him to use a term a little less coarse?"
To which the wife replied:
"Oh no, it's taken me 40 years of marriage to teach him to say 'Dung', your Ladyship!" ;)

Anyhow, your North Korea analogy is a good one :D - I'm just old enough to remember being thrilled by the exploits of Pak Do Ik and the boys from "Our Wee Socialist Country" in the World Cup in 1966.
Perhaps you should post it on owc - I daresay you'll get the usual abuse from the usual suspects, but if I don't let similar treatment put me off this Board, there's no reason why you can't withstand the same over there. I've no doubt most of the guys will appreciate the joke.

As for the substance of your post - there is no "right" answer to an issue like this and I make no comment; I am merely curious to know what other people think.

[pineapple stu]

So whilst I don't blame you for trying, I'm afraid you'll have to support your own team. Otherwise, you'll only come across like e.g. an Evertonian claiming "ownership" over Liverpool, which thinking runs contrary to all of Nature's Laws and will bring down the wrath of the Football God Ziggur-Zaggur upon your head...
The Everton-Liverpool comparison doesn't work in this case though. Everton and Liverpool are clubs, and any one club is clearly different to another and was created as such, so one can't claim the other's history (unless you're MK Dons).

Ireland and the North, however, are states (replace with whatever phrase you deem most appropriate), with the national football teams arising out of them. So if you view the 32 counties as one state (which obviously many RoI people would), you can definitely claim a stake in the history of the "united" Irish team pre-1921.

[Jerry The Saint]

Oscar: Both my parents were born in Mexico, and they moved to the United States a year before I was born, so I grew up in the United States... my parents were Mexican.

Michael Scott: Wow, that is a great story. That's the American dream right there, right? Um, let me ask you, is there a term besides 'Mexican' that you prefer? Something less offensive:confused:

[dcfcsteve]

Arguably the Mexican national game is Pok-a-Tok:

http://www.greatdreams.com/mayan/mayan-games.htm

This was a brutal game, involving serious injury, death or even ritual killing of the losers, which was played by the indigenous people, the Mayans, long before football was introduced by the colonisers. Ring any bells? ;)
(Clue: For "Maya" read "Mayo"?)

To be fair to the Mayans - whilst there obviously weren't national boundaries in their pre-and-mid Conquistador days, if they were to be assigned any contemporary nationality they'd be more Guatemalan, Belizan and Honduran than Mexican. Only the very southern corner of Mexico (the Yucatan) was Mayan.

The peopel indigenous to the majority of Mexico were the Aztecs.

Whether the Aztecs played an ancient version of football I don't know (the Central American travels didn't take me far enough north to find out.... :) )

[EalingGreen]

Well I don't refer to the team I support as ROI. I call them Ireland. Does that answer your question? I also don't refer to the Ireland C team as NI and, like all Irish teams, I hope Ireland, Ireland B and Ireland C win all their matches. I can understand that as your loyalities lie with Ireland C you take great pride in the wee victories against more illustrious counterparts as this is seen as justification for a Ireland C team. But as a supporter of Ireland, you can understand that I don't have any rivalry with the Ireland C team. On the contrary, I want them to do well.

The "ownership feeling" you mention is not something I can relate to or tend to dwell on - I don't see its relevancy in the modern day. But if I did live in pre 1920 Ireland and if I as a pre 1920 man had the same values as a 2007 Irishman, I would associated myself with a United Ireland football team - without question. But alas my focus is on the now - and my hope is that Ireland wins its next qualifying game. As you know, our manager is Stan the Man and I hope you can undersand Stan's managerial skills give me more worry than the origins of the national side.

And as an aside, the Korean comparison is much more apt that the USA and Mexico - esp. given the high number of defectors from the North to the South, and not vice versa ...

Thank you for that second paragraph - very interesting. And your "Korean defectors" quip is a good one, too! (Though I hardly think anyone opting for ROI over NI could be described as a "Korea move" the way things are at present ;) )

As for your opening paragraph:
http://www.msnemotions.org/emoticons/uploads/sleepy.gif

[dcfcsteve]

so one can't claim the other's history (unless you're MK Dons).



Even the Dirty Dons Franchise FC can no longer claim the Wimbledon history - they have officially relinguished any right over the FA Cup and previous honours to AFC Wimbledon, the true heirs of Wimbledon FC.

[EalingGreen]

The Everton-Liverpool comparison doesn't work in this case though. Everton and Liverpool are clubs, and any one club is clearly different to another and was created as such, so one can't claim the other's history (unless you're MK Dons).

Ireland and the North, however, are states (replace with whatever phrase you deem most appropriate), with the national football teams arising out of them. So if you view the 32 counties as one state (which obviously many RoI people would), you can definitely claim a stake in the history of the "united" Irish team pre-1921.

Actually, Evertonians claim that Liverpool was formed as a breakaway from their club, although it was they (Everton) who moved out of Anfield (originally their home), thereby leaving it vacant for the newly-formed Liverpool FC.
I know it's from Wikipedia, but I think the following is reliable:

"Liverpool F.C. were founded by John Houlding in 1892 to play in his vacant Anfield stadium. For the previous seven years the stadium had been used by Everton F.C.. However, in 1891 Houlding, the leaseholder of Anfield, purchased the ground outright and proposed increasing the rent from £100 to £250 per year.[8] The Everton members objected, left Anfield and moved to Goodison Park.
With an empty ground and just three players remaining, Houlding decided to form his own football club and on 15 March 1892, Liverpool Football Club was formed. The original name was to be Everton F.C. and Athletic Grounds, Ltd., or Everton Athletic for short, but was changed to Liverpool F.C. when The Football Association refused to recognise the team as Everton. John McKenna was appointed director and signed thirteen Scottish professionals for the new club"

Anyway, I accept that that doesn't really matter for the purposes of this thread; your second paragraph is much more pertinent (and interesting).

It's beginning to look as though ROI fans have mixed, even contradictory, opinions on the issue of the Ireland team, pre-partition.

[EalingGreen]

Even the Dirty Dons Franchise FC can no longer claim the Wimbledon history - they have officially relinguished any right over the FA Cup and previous honours to AFC Wimbledon, the true heirs of Wimbledon FC.

As Pineapple Stu indicated, though, club football is not the same as international football i.e. you can't "choose" your country, whereas you can choose your club. Although the ROI's eligibility and Passport criteria sometimes make it seem as if any bugger can choose them.
















Having lit the blue touchpaper, Ealing Green retreats to a safe distance...

(And I am really only joking, btw :D )

[pineapple stu]

How's Maik Taylor doing for yez these days? ;)

[Jamjar]

My biggest regret of the political division that happened in the early 90's is the break-up of that great Red Star Belgrade team.

I'm sure the victims of Serbian nationalism share your regret.

[stojkovic]

I'm sure the victims of Serbian nationalism share your regret.

Funny, I thought that this was a football forum.

[Poor Student]

This did not happen with the break-up of the USSR, Yugoslavia or Czechoslavakia where the dominant state took the credit for past histories and achievements.

I can't speak for the USSR or Czechoslovakia but I know in Slovenia they take credit for the achievements of those athletes who hailed from their country and represented Yugoslavia. Throughout every part of the disintegration of Yugoslavia the rump that contained Serbia right down to the recent dissolution of Serbia and Montenegro claims to be the successor state of al Yugoslavia's achievements. Serbia probably claims its won X amount of medals in Olympics etc. but Slovenia and the others would feel that's their achievement.

[dcfcsteve]

I can't speak for the USSR or Czechoslovakia but I know in Slovenia they take credit for the achievements of those athletes who hailed from their country and represented Yugoslavia. Throughout every part of the disintegration of Yugoslavia the rump that contained Serbia right down to the recent dissolution of Serbia and Montenegro claims to be the successor state of al Yugoslavia's achievements. Serbia probably claims its won X amount of medals in Olympics etc. but Slovenia and the others would feel that's their achievement.

It's easy to lay claim on gongs in individual sports like athletics, boxing etc, as it's clear where those individuals hail from.

It's much trickier in football where the participants come from a number of areas - and particularly for somewhere like Yugoslavia that split into so many individual parts, with none of those individual parts being so geographically large or dominanty as to lay any sort of credible claim on past unitary achievements (unlike Russia vis-a-vis the USSR).

[pineapple stu]

Olympic medals and athletes are far easier to sort though, as there's only one person who can usually be attributed to one country. Team sports are a far more complicated issue though, and are what this one is about.

Someone was saying that 8 of the 1976 European Championship winning Czechoslovakian team were actuall from Slovakia, although most people will say Slovakia have never qualified for the Euros, but the Czechs have won it. How do you allocate that victory then? 8/11th to Slovakia, maybe with an allowance for subs? In reality, they'd pretty much have to share the win. Same situation here really.

[EalingGreen]

A number of developments in the world game can be traced to here. One of the most famous being the invention of the goal net by a Belfast man in 1890/91 I think his name was Dunlop.

Unlikely. According to http://www.goalkeepersaredifferent.com/keeper/netframe.htm

Goal nets were the invention of J. A. Brodie, who took out a patent for his invention in 1890. The first official use of nets date from 1891 when they were used at the Old Etonian's ground Liverpool and at Nottingham Forest's Town Ground. They were first used in an FA Cup Final in 1892 but it was some time before they were used regularly in International matches, which led to the odd disputed goal.

When Jack Barton scored the ninth goal for England against Ireland in Belfast in 1890, the Irish players claimed the ball had gone over the bar and when Willie Gibson scored a very late equaliser for Ireland in 1894, England's goalkeeper Joe Reader claimed the ball went past the post. It was the first time Ireland avoided defeat against England.

When you Google "J.A.Brodie", the results invariably list him either as "Liverpudlian JA Brodie" or "JA Brodie of Liverpool". And although it is possible he was a Belfastman resident in Liverpool at some stage, if a Belfast man patented nets in 1890, you'd have imagined he'd have had them introduced for an international in his home city by 1894?

Of much greater significance in the development of the game is the contribution of "Master" Willie McCrum, of Armagh. His (English) great-grandson Robert, the Literary Editor of the Observer, wrote this piece soon after England went out of Euro2004 on a penalty shoot-out:

Sunday July 4, 2004
The Observer

The penalty shoot-out is a cruel way to settle a great championship. I always watch these nail-biting minutes with especially mixed feelings. What, I wonder, would my great-grandfather have made of it? After all, penalties were his idea....
Just outside Armagh, near the border with the Republic of Ireland, among pleasant hills and apple orchards, lies the former cotton-spinning community of Milford. This red-brick, late-Victorian model village was built by my great-great-grandfather, Robert Garmany McCrum, an imposing, far-sighted cotton millionaire whose only son William ('Master Willie') was mad about football.


My great-grandfather is still remembered in Milford as 'Master Willie', as though he somehow never quite grew up. His was a classic and strangely fascinating failure. Master Willie was quite different from his father. Where Robert Garmany McCrum ('RG') was authoritarian and remote, his son was sporty and accessible. Where RG was serious, thrifty and God-fearing; Master Willie told funny stories, sang songs and loved to play games.
Shut out of the family business as a lightweight, eventually deserted by a faithless wife and coldly ignored by his father, Master Willie travelled the world, lived high on the hog and was well-known as a gambler. But if he found lasting fulfilment anywhere, it was in the athletic pursuits of his village, especially football.

Throughout his sporting life he played enthusiastically in goal for the Milford Football Club. A failure in business who would eventually have to sell the Milford cotton mill to pay for his injudicious speculations at the gaming tables of Monte Carlo, Master Willie took a keen amateur's interest in the conduct of the great game.

In the nineteenth century, amateur football was largely a free-for-all, with almost no coherence or organisation, in which local scores were settled and old vendettas sustained. A well-known defensive action involved the defenders jumping up and kneeing their opponents in the stomach. Overenthusiastic tackling sometimes resulted in death. Charges of manslaughter arising from matches were not unusual.

As a goalkeeper, Master Willie had every opportunity to witness the way in which the purity of the sport was being corrupted by such foul play. Then he had his big idea. Offenders should be punished with a penalty. And not just any old penalty. A 'penalty kick'. From his goalmouth vantage-point on the muddy, low-lying Milford village football pitch, during the 1880s, William McCrum slowly developed the idea of the penalty kick as a way of curbing excesses on the field.

The penalty kick , of course, is the kind of penalty that only a goalkeeper could have invented, a supreme moment of drama and self-sacrifice that places the goalkeeper, generally a bystander, at the centre of the stage. Yes, it stacks the odds against the goalie, but it does make him, heroically, even tragically, the star of the show. Master Willie was not just a sporting show-off. He also devoted hours of recreation to amateur theatricals in the Milford village hall, the McCrum Institute.

In 1890, having developed the idea of the penalty kick in local Milford games, Master Willie persuaded the Irish Football Association (IFA) to submit his idea to the next meeting of the International Football Board (IFB).

Scornfully described by the English press as 'the Irishman's Motion', the suggestion was condemned as likely to reduce play to gridlock and as a restriction that would curb the players' freedom of expression. The notion of the penalty kick was ethically abhorrent, too. It was unthinkable to the amateur section of the IFB that a player should deliberately kick an opponent and, worse, that the rules of the game should acknowledge such foul play.

The legendary CB Fry, captain of the Corinthians - gentlemen amateur players who collectively disdained the penalty kick by using such moments to have a quiet smoke - pronounced that it was 'a standing insult to sportsmen to have to play under a rule which assumes that players intend to trip, hack and push opponents and to behave like cads of the most unscrupulous kidney'.

In June 1890, at a meeting in London, the IFB resolved, after fierce debate, that the contentious 'Irishman's Motion' should be adjourned for a year. This time all went smoothly and the penalty kick rule - number 13 in the Laws of the Game - was unanimously adopted and, with progressive refinements, soon became an integral, but not controversial, part of the game. Master Willie's contribution faded into oblivion.

I first came across this story on a visit to Milford in 1987. Some of the older villagers, proud of their connection to this sporting footnote, took me to see the actual pitch on which the great rule had been developed, told stories of Master Willie driving his Rolls-Royce down Milford's main street and teased me about the family's lost millions.

Coincidentally, as penalties began to play a larger role in the modern game, I found that the story of Master Willie's invention was becoming better known. After England were knocked out of the 1998 World Cup in a penalty shoot-out against Argentina, Gary Lineker filmed a short historical documentary about William McCrum. My credibility with The Observer sports desk rose, momentarily. My colleague Andrew Anthony even wrote a book, On Penalties , about the subject, exploring its existential dimensions in fascinating detail.

Today, economic progress in newly peaceful Northern Ireland has finally reached Milford. Having seemed frozen in time for generations, the village is changing. Developers are moving in. Plans to build on the Milford Football Club pitch have become the subject of a fierce local controversy. Occasionally a friendly reporter from The Belfast Telegraph rings up for my opinion on the whole business.

What do I think ? I am, initially, a bit embarrassed to be claiming ancestry with Master Willie after forty-something years of sheer ignorance, not to say profound indifference. When I was growing up in Cambridge, the old family home in Milford was not mentioned - hardly known about, indeed - and Master Willie was not referred to. I regret to say that in my family we were more likely to discuss the source of a Shakespeare quotation, or the derivation of an obscure English noun than to analyse the history of Association Football.

But now that the penalty kick has become part of the national conversation, I am happy to be an expert and to brag about the family connection to Master Willie. I'd rather watch cricket or racing, but European Championship football with England in the last eight is unquestionably thrilling and a penalty shoot-out (which our match against Portugal was reduced to) made it a moment of poignant high drama for spectators, especially non-football loving ones. I willingly concede that the IFB were probably right: penalties do diminish the game. But there is no getting round the theatre of the penalty kick. My great-grandfather's penalty kick.

What Master Willie would think of all this I have no idea. Apart from his peculiar niche in the forgotten annals of the beautiful game, he is almost forgotten. He died, alcoholic, penniless and alone, in a boarding house in Armagh, just before Christmas in 1932.

Btw, that article was reproduced in the History & Heritage section of OWC - http://ourweecountry.ipbhost.com/index.php?showforum=183 - which those of you interested in the game's origins might find interesting.
There is evidence that the defensive wall might be one of ours as well - Danny Blanchflower claims so - though it is somewhat dubious.
And Belfast man Billy McCracken (Newcastle United) is generally credited with having used the offside trap to such great effect that in 1925 the number of defenders required to play an opponent offside was reduced from three to two.



P.S. The Dunlop you are thinking of may be this one, a Scot who invented the pneumatic tyre in Belfast and gave his name to the giant Tyre company:

http://www.ulsterhistory.co.uk/johndunlop.htm

[geysir]

I was wrong, I had thought the only football fans remotely interested in history were Shamrock Rovers fans with their resurrection of post famine archives to find evidence of greatness.


deserted by a faithless wife
The only remotely interesting character in that story.