Can anyone say this isn't stupid? [Archive]

kingdom hoop

08/04/2007, 11:26 AM

what the hell has a dead language got to do with our culture? dancing at crossroads, road bowling and fireside story telling are each a hundred times more reflective of "our culture" (read: what we used to do, when there wasnt much else to do and the priest wasnt looking) and don't receive anything like the millions that are poured into the mental landfill that is the irish language.

:mad: at first, then i feel more like this :o a very petty dig.

if you're so interested in what cultural activities we used to engage in maybe you ought to in fact begin investigating the irish language to gain an insight. for example the brehon law that used to rule the land was written in old irish, so from that you could learn that as a way of determining if someone was guilty of a crime one would be forced to lick a red-hot metal bar, if it burnt you you were guilty, if not you were deemed innocent. thats all i'll say for now

GavinZac

08/04/2007, 12:11 PM

if you're so interested in what cultural activities we used to engage in maybe you ought to in fact begin investigating the irish language to gain an insight. for example the brehon law that used to rule the land was written in old irish, so from that you could learn that as a way of determining if someone was guilty of a crime one would be forced to lick a red-hot metal bar, if it burnt you you were guilty, if not you were deemed innocent. thats all i'll say for nowfor a start, you're confusing history with culture. if we could confine the irish language to history we'd be flying. if you think that the brehon laws have any impact of culture in ireland, you're deluded. they may be a valuable insight into our past, but they have little to do with our culture. even if they did, one wouldn't need to know irish to appreciate that - you rarely find people studying plato in ancient greek or calculus in arabic.

languages change, evolve, are born and die. they are merely a matter of transmission - of little or no value without the ideas that they convey. it is these ideas that form culture, and being aware of these ideas, ideals and beliefs neither requires nor validates the method of transmission. it doesn't matter whether when i click submit, the web page uses HTTP:GET or HTTP:POST, once the information i want to convey is transmitted clearly. Our culture, the culture representing the island we live on today, is almost entirely conveyed in the English language. The Late Late Show, when it pushed our country out of the dark ages, was in English. The lyrics of Thin Lizzy, of Christy Moore, of U2 and of the Boomtown Rats, so reflective of the values and ills of irish society, are in English. What is wrong with that? Do Chinese people complain that they must speak Mandarin? Do north Africans mourn the loss of Phoenician to the Arabic language? Native Americans are incredibly proud to tell the world of their philosophy, culture and history through a living, vibrant, verbose and expanding worldwide language. Why aren't we?

is it an inferiority complex or embarrassment that makes people think that exhuming a clumsy dead language with little or no literature of value would be better than being proud of the culture we actually live in today, the culture of Irish people and not long dead monks and scribes?

He pointed out that of all the places we visited, the storehouse was the only place that had none of the signs in Irish, it was all in English. Something I never would have noticed. He thought it took a little away from the place, made it less authentic (if that's possible)
No, its not possible. Your friend was looking for the fake, plastic paddy, shamrocks and celtic cross Ireland of saint patricks day parades. That he confused the reality of the situation, that the storehouse was set up by entirely english speaking people for entirely english speaking people, with that fakeness and pathetic attempts to differentiate ourselves from britain through the use of tokenism, is a pity, because rather than appreciate what we have to offer, he is confused by our own lies and denial.

pineapple stu

08/04/2007, 12:20 PM

if we could confine the irish language to history we'd be flying.
I'm sorry, but that's drivel, and backed up by absolutely nothing at that.

tetsujin1979 has made the point about foreign visitors noting the signs in Irish, as have I. Argue against that if you want, but don't post stand along jibberish.

You say "What is wrong with that (speaking and writing in English)? Do Chinese people complain that they must speak Mandarin?" Again, you seem to be confusing the issue. There's nothing wrong with speaking and writing in English. But, by your own logic, what's wrong with speaking and writing in Irish?

You further say that "is it an inferiority complex or embarrassment that makes people think that exhuming a clumsy dead language with little or no literature of value would be better than being proud of the culture we actually live in today, the culture of Irish people and not long dead monks and scribes?" This is a remarkably ignorant statement. Irish is not solely the language of dead monks and scribes; the fact that it forms the basis for our place names, our own names, our dialect of English that we use says that. And being proud of our own language is by no means a sign of an inferiority complex - try telling that to the people of Wales, Israel, the Faroes, the Czech Republic and Slovakia, among, I am sure, many others, all of whom actually ditched their invader language (for want of a better phrase) for their own language in the past 150/200 years. (Wales obviously less so than the rest, but they have made significant progress nonetheless)

Dodge

08/04/2007, 12:38 PM

Plenty of threads on the Irish language already lads...

As to the point of the initial post, its very rare for an airport to have signs in more than the local languages and English. There are some international sign pics like Taxis. Bises etc and they do the job if I can't read a sign.

kingdom hoop

08/04/2007, 12:51 PM

for a start, you're confusing history with culture. if we could confine the irish language to history we'd be flying. if you think that the brehon laws have any impact of culture in ireland, you're deluded. they may be a valuable insight into our past, but they have little to do with our culture. even if they did, one wouldn't need to know irish to appreciate that - you rarely find people studying plato in ancient greek or calculus in arabic.

languages change, evolve, are born and die. they are merely a matter of transmission - of little or no value without the ideas that they convey. it is these ideas that form culture, and being aware of these ideas, ideals and beliefs neither requires nor validates the method of transmission. it doesn't matter whether when i click submit, the web page uses HTTP:GET or HTTP:POST, once the information i want to convey is transmitted clearly. Our culture, the culture representing the island we live on today, is almost entirely conveyed in the English language. The Late Late Show, when it pushed our country out of the dark ages, was in English. The lyrics of Thin Lizzy, of Christy Moore, of U2 and of the Boomtown Rats, so reflective of the values and ills of irish society, are in English. What is wrong with that? Do Chinese people complain that they must speak Mandarin? Do north Africans mourn the loss of Phoenician to the Arabic language? Native Americans are incredibly proud to tell the world of their philosophy, culture and history through a living, vibrant, verbose and expanding worldwide language. Why aren't we?

is it an inferiority complex or embarrassment that makes people think that exhuming a clumsy dead language with little or no literature of value would be better than being proud of the culture we actually live in today, the culture of Irish people and not long dead monks and scribes?

thought provoking post.

its not a right/wrong matter though. my point would be that culture, language and history are intertwined( or as gaeilge, fite fuaite - a lovely saying!), so that to gain an understanding of our modern culture we most look backwards, to a certain extent at least. i accept your point that this can be conveyed in english but not without regard for irish

what probably spurred me to respond originally was the fact that old irish has recently been removed form syllabi in ucd, which i must say saddened me and could hint at a worry slide in our appreciation of irish. call me a romantic, deluded so and so but in a modern multi-cultural world i'd like to see our culture protected such that 50 years down the line irish people can be remembered for having being distinct from england, with language playing an instrumental role in this differentiation. and i believe a more effective role than dancing at crossroads or road bowling, for a culture shapes and is shaped by its language. to say lyrics of U2 are important but to discount literature in irish(which is very much still alive) is unreasonable in my book

as an aside even the great english language derives some words from irish, so for studiers of etymology irish isnt a dead language either!!

GavinZac

08/04/2007, 12:56 PM

tetsujin1979 has made the point about foreign visitors noting the signs in Irish, as have I. Argue against that if you want, but don't post stand along jibberish.
see edit of previous post

You say "What is wrong with that (speaking and writing in English)? Do Chinese people complain that they must speak Mandarin?" Again, you seem to be confusing the issue. There's nothing wrong with speaking and writing in English. But, by your own logic, what's wrong with speaking and writing in Irish? i'm confused as to how thats my logic. I was talking about how our culture is almost entirely based in the english language. Apart from it being pointlessly limiting, theres nothing wrong with writing in the Irish language. It'd probably make you a fair bit of money if you came up with anything half decent - we're stuck with Dunmharu ar an Dart and Peig Sayers in the only viable market for Irish literature, school books.

You further say that "is it an inferiority complex or embarrassment that makes people think that exhuming a clumsy dead language with little or no literature of value would be better than being proud of the culture we actually live in today, the culture of Irish people and not long dead monks and scribes?" This is a remarkably ignorant statement. Irish is not solely the language of dead monks and scribes; the fact that it forms the basis for our place names, our own names, our dialect of English that we use says that. And rome is named after romulus! London is named after a celtic god. many of our names are based upon hebrew words. None of these are reason to learn etruscan, briton-gaulish or hebrew. It is irrelevant. It is the past. They are absorbed into the english language - as I said, they change and adapt. Its certainly valuable to know where they came from - but what value does that give sticking a sign up that says "telefon" instead of "telephone"?

And being proud of our own language is by no means a sign of an inferiority complex - try telling that to the people of Wales, Israel, the Faroes, the Czech Republic and Slovakia, among, I am sure, many others, all of whom actually ditched their invader language (for want of a better phrase) for their own language in the past 150/200 years. (Wales obviously less so than the rest, but they have made significant progress nonetheless)
Quite a lot of jews would argue with you about yiddish being an 'invader language'. Hebrew's choice as language of the israeli state was for entirely religious and sectarian reasons.

Faroese was adopted as the official school language by a few thousand people on an isolated island in the north atlantic, never dropped from common use and is an intelligible dialect of danish. to compare it to the waste of millions of euros each year on attempting to convince four million people that actually, everything that has formed the environment they live in was actually in the wrong language and they are therefore not as Irish as a few thousand people looking for housing grants in galway or the nouveau riche looking for some way to keep their kids away from those horrid commoners is an insult to both of our intellegences.

Czech and Slovak never died as spoken languages and their temporary drop from use in administration and among the intelligentsia in the 18th century also hardly compares to the situation at hand in ireland. among your examples only one is a valid comparison - the valueless, self serving promotion of the welsh language by welsh nationalists.

pineapple stu

08/04/2007, 12:59 PM

Right, well your mind is obviously made up, so I'm not going to bother arguing with you. Rather sad though that someone is quite happy to bash our own culture for reasons of rather shaky logic.

GavinZac

08/04/2007, 1:04 PM

Right, well your mind is obviously made up, so I'm not going to bother arguing with you.thats quite hypocritical, declining to argue a point simply because the other person disagrees with you is either cowardly or stubborn. I'm guessing its the latter

Rather sad though that someone is quite happy to bash our own culture for reasons of rather shaky logic.again, the equation of culture and language shows that either you didnt read my post or you simply ignored it because 'your mind is obviously made up'. I love most aspects of my culture, regardless of whether I can no longer read peig sayers given my few years in the real world.

kingdom hoop

08/04/2007, 1:10 PM

thats quite hypocritical, declining to argue a point simply because the other person disagrees with you is either cowardly or stubborn. I'm guessing its the latter

. among your examples only one is a valid comparison - the valueless, self serving promotion of the welsh language by welsh nationalists.

thats his point. you blew it

pineapple stu

08/04/2007, 1:11 PM

Hypocritical? That charge doesn't make any sense, to be honest.

Nice to see you know what foreign visitors should be looking for when they visit more than they themselves, incidentally. I was going to ask them, but it's OK, because you appear to know for them.

Your argument is based on ignorance, equating Irish to dead monks, Peig Sayers and scribes. I don't really see that you're going to listen to any proper arguments such as are being made, so there's no point wasting energy.

GavinZac

08/04/2007, 1:12 PM

thats his point. you blew it
:confused: explain?

Hypocritical? That charge doesn't make any sense, to be honest.You're telling me my mind is made up, then completely ignoring what I actually posted, that language does not equate to culture.

Nice to see you know what foreign visitors should be looking for when they visit more than they themselves, incidentally. I was going to ask them, but it's OK, because you appear to know for them.i dont care if foreign visitors want to see pointless fake, token irish. an irish speaking ireland is as true to reality as a disney-themed florida. that was my point - why do we want to portray ourselves as something we are not?

osarusan

08/04/2007, 1:22 PM

to compare it to the waste of millions of euros each year on attempting to convince four million people that actually, everything that has formed the environment they live in was actually in the wrong language and they are therefore not as Irish as a few thousand people looking for housing grants in galway or the nouveau riche looking for some way to keep their kids away from those horrid commoners is an insult to both of our intellegences.

you raise some good points but both the assumptions above (highlighted in bold) are both pretty sad and an insult to the "intellegences" of those who truly love the Irish language and see it as an integral part or Irish culture.

Perhaps it was these assumptions that lead to this....

Right, well your mind is obviously made up, so I'm not going to bother arguing with you.

pineapple stu

08/04/2007, 1:26 PM

You're telling me my mind is made up, then completely ignoring what I actually posted, that language does not equate to culture.
I think you should go and look up a dictionary, to be honest. That's not hypocritical.

As a side note, gaelscoileanna are at record popularity, Irish is probably "cooler" and more accepted than at any time in the past few decades with the likes of TG4, Hector, live football and so forth and it's actually not uncommon to hear people, particularly younger people, talking in Irish. But if you want to tell them they're delusional idiots who've some false idea of their own culture, fair enough. You appear to have a real chip on your shoulder with regards Irish, possibly through some bad experience in school or some sort of "cool" teenage rebellion (I hate Irish - I'm cool) - the standard reasons. You'll get sense with age. You'll find a lot of older Irish people who express regret at not having more Irish. But then, they're probably delusional as well.

kingdom hoop

08/04/2007, 1:28 PM

:confused: explain?

you're rather shameful stereotyping of anyone in wales who tries promoting the language, which is easily, in your mind, transferable to ireland. thus it seems you're mind is made up that an irish person supporting irish must be some republican nationalist, or whatever. which is disrespectful, and makes arguing about the value of language with such a person difficult.

as it happens, there are plenty of welsh people who are simply happy they have their own language. for example gruff rhys of the super furry animals made an all-welsh record about 2 years ago, not to make more money but to display his grá for his language

GavinZac

08/04/2007, 1:29 PM

you raise some good points but both the assumptions above (highlighted in bold) are both pretty sad and an insult to the "intellegences" of those who truly love the Irish language and see it as an integral part or Irish culture.

Perhaps it was these assumptions that lead to this....

hyperbole. usually used to express a point and lighten the mood. it doesnt seem to translate well into text for a disagree audience - a few of these may have been appropriate " :p ". of course i dont believe that those two groups make up the entirety of the irish-pushing minority but i was sarcastically suggesting that simply speaking another language does not make them any more "irish", no more than me knowing french would make me any more french.

GavinZac

08/04/2007, 1:34 PM

you're rather shameful stereotyping of anyone in wales who tries promoting the language, which is easily, in your mind, transferable to ireland. thus it seems you're mind is made up that an irish person supporting irish must be some republican nationalist, or whatever. which is disrespectful, and makes arguing about the value of language with such a person difficult. no, no, no no. you're reading too far into what i said. by saying the situation was comparable i didnt mean the reasons people have for promoting the language. I meant simpler things like the extent that the language fell out of use, the duration of its obscurity and the body of existing literature in that language. those are comparable. I entirely disagree with anyone suggesting the majority of people promoting the irish language are doing it for political reasons, as some Welsh nationalist politicians have.

as it happens, there are plenty of welsh people who are simply happy they have their own language. for example gruff rhys of the super furry animals made an all-welsh record about 2 years ago, not to make more money but to display his grá for his languageok :confused: well its the first of heard of it but since you mention it im sure it went down well and was a valuable contribution to the culture of wales. now - does that devalue his earlier work?

kingdom hoop

08/04/2007, 1:48 PM

now - does that devalue his earlier work?

not in my eyes. why?

just going back to a point when you disregarded place names, i often find it interesting when traveling the country to note that a place was called 'church of the hawthorn' or 'town of sive' etc, much more informative and easier to understand than rome - if i wasnt so knowledgeable how would i know romulos killed his brother remulos!!

osarusan

08/04/2007, 1:49 PM

hyperbole. usually used to express a point and lighten the mood. it doesnt seem to translate well into text for a disagree audience - a few of these may have been appropriate " :p ". of course i dont believe that those two groups make up the entirety of the irish-pushing minority but i was sarcastically suggesting that simply speaking another language does not make them any more "irish" no more than me knowing french would make me any more french.

No need for the condescending explanation in the first paragraph, thanks. I understand the concept of hyperbole. I said in my first post that you made some good points, which you do, but which you yourself admitted needed clarification.

Re the second highlighted point...no you were not, you were questioning their motives in their attempts to speak Irish, in a real or hyperbolical way.

One of the few parts that I truly disagree with is this statement -

. an irish speaking ireland is as true to reality as a disney-themed florida. that was my point - why do we want to portray ourselves as something we are not?

This is entirely false. Irish culture has developed over a huge period of time, during most of which Irish was the language of the majority. Now I agree that the links between language and culture can be overstated, but there is a link nonetheless.

We are not an Irish-speaking Ireland now, but were for the vast majority of our existance.

Disney on the other hand has been around for a fraction of the time, and has had no historical influence, and is in no way a linguistic entity.

Are you really suggesting that the influence the Irish language has had on Ireland is as limited as the influence Disney has had on Florida? Do you really think it is a fair comparison?

GavinZac

08/04/2007, 1:59 PM

not in my eyes. why?its my opinion, that once he gets his message, his art through to his audience clearly and properly, the language he does it in is no more important than the media it is distributed on. obviously, this is not entirely true in the case of music as singing in a different language must obviously provide at the very least an opportunity to use more imaginative rhymes, but the point stands for more generalised culture.

just going back to a point when you disregarded place names, i often find it interesting when traveling the country to note that a place was called 'church of the hawthorn' or 'town of sive' etc, much more informative and easier to understand than rome - if i wasnt so knowledgeable how would i know romulos killed his brother remulos!!yes, thats a charming fact of irish place names, that "bloody rock where seamas found a large cow" is actually a place in the midlands! (if you believe Trivial Pursuit, at least). I appreciate that. That kind of literalism and playful language is part of our culture that also shines through in our use of "irish dialect english". Unfortunately, some see that as a reason for needless tokenism, such as the case of renaming dingle as "Daingean", a completely fictional irish name. I'm all for preserving our culture (and as an example of such, irish place names are invaluable) but again, it is creating a fiction of disneyland proportions that i disagree with.

GavinZac

08/04/2007, 2:06 PM

No need for the condescending explanation in the first paragraph, thanks. I understand the concept of hyperbole. I said in my first post that you made some good points, which you do, but which you yourself admitted needed clarification.Language is only condescending if you make it. Who am I to assume that you would be aware of a debating/literary technique? Or our, no-doubt rapt, audience? ;)

Re the second highlighted point...no you were not, you were questioning their motives in their attempts to speak Irish, in a real or hyperbolical way. Sorry, but thats bull****. You're telling me what I meant now? or are you accusing me of lying?

One of the few parts that I truly disagree with is this statement - This is entirely false. Irish culture has developed over a huge period of time, during most of which Irish was the language of the majority. Now I agree that the links between language and culture can be overstated, but there is a link nonetheless.
We are not an Irish-speaking Ireland now, but were for the vast majority of our existance.I'm only 22, how old are you? :confused: :p i disagree. more after the jump...

Disney on the other hand has been around for a fraction of the time, and has had no historical influence, and is in no way a linguistic entity.

Are you really suggesting that the influence the Irish language has had on Ireland is as limited as the influence Disney has had on Florida? Do you really think it is a fair comparison?
No, im not suggesting that. Irish of course had an influence on the development of our culture. It then fell by the wayside, while our culture continued to change with external and internal influences. So I'm not refering to past influences, but to current relevance.

kingdom hoop

08/04/2007, 2:13 PM

[QUOTE=GavinZac;662426]

yes, thats a charming fact of irish place names, that "bloody rock where seamas found a large cow" is actually a place in the midlands! (if you believe Trivial Pursuit, at least). I appreciate that.

you say that having earlier said, in reference to place names;

It is irrelevant. It is the past. They are absorbed into the english language - as I said, they change and adapt. Its certainly valuable to know where they came from - but what value does that give sticking a sign up that says "telefon" instead of "telephone"?

its your problem if you cant understand, which is evident from below;

Unfortunately, some see that as a reason for needless tokenism, such as the case of renaming dingle as "Daingean", a completely fictional irish name.

daingean in fact translates as 'fort'. the people of dingle favoured daingean uí chuis which means 'fort of (yer man) chuis'. so, eh...:eek:

osarusan

08/04/2007, 2:15 PM

This is entirely false. Irish culture has developed over a huge period of time, during most of which Irish was the language of the majority. Now I agree that the links between language and culture can be overstated, but there is a link nonetheless.

We are not an Irish-speaking Ireland now, but were for the vast majority of our existance.

i disagree. more after the jump...

Which point do you disagree with?

GavinZac

08/04/2007, 2:22 PM

yes, thats a charming fact of irish place names, that "bloody rock where seamas found a large cow" is actually a place in the midlands! (if you believe Trivial Pursuit, at least). I appreciate that.

you say that having earlier said, in reference to place names;

more stuff

I said that they are absorbed into the english language. I said that in both posts :confused:

daingean in fact translates as 'fort'. the people of dingle favoured daingean uí chuis which means 'fort of (yer man) chuis'. so, eh...:eek:I'm only going on what my (gaeilgóir! you can imagine that i've had these arguments on many a nothing-on-tv night) girlfriend said! coming back to the dingle controversy of a few years ago, that raises a point from that time - why is it that the irish language is foisted upon us in the most anglicised of areas and situations with the excuse that it is "our national tongue", and yet it is illegal to display the English version of a gaeltacht area (the root of the controversy in dingle where an area always known as dingle, especially to tourists, was undemocratically assigned an unused possible irish root)? Is that not a violation of our rights to our other official national language, English? :D

Which point do you disagree with?

that there is any tenable link. i explain what i mean further in the post.

osarusan

08/04/2007, 2:36 PM

that there is any tenable link. i explain what i mean further in the post.

But in your post, you said this....

Irish of course had an influence on the development of our culture. It then fell by the wayside, while our culture continued to change with external and internal influences. So I'm not refering to past influences, but to current relevance.
...which suggests (to me at least) that you do feel Irish has had a tenable link with our culture and how it developed.

pineapple stu

08/04/2007, 2:36 PM

coming back to the dingle controversy of a few years ago...where an area always known as dingle, especially to tourists, was undemocratically assigned an unused possible irish root)?
Given that the only tourist's opinion we have on the matter (from the Letters to the Irish Times around the time of the debate) expressed support for the move to rename Irish place names in Irish, why do you feel tourists should be force-fed English place names?

osarusan

08/04/2007, 2:39 PM

Given that the only tourist's opinion we have on the matter (from the Letters to the Irish Times around the time of the debate) expressed support for the move to rename Irish place names in Irish, why do you feel tourists should be force-fed English place names?

If I am correct, in this case, it was not a re-naming as much as an invention of a new name?

pineapple stu

08/04/2007, 2:42 PM

Well, that's a different issue, I suppose. I'm not sure about that. However, gavinzac is trying to argue that Irish is irrelevant, and that tourists are happy with names in English, whereas the only evidence we have from tourists is that they have no problems with names in Irish, and actually prefer them. Whether the name is genuine or not, although it sounds a contradiction to say it, isn't relevant to the point I'm making.

GavinZac

08/04/2007, 2:43 PM

But in your post, you said this....

...which suggests (to me at least) that you do feel Irish has had a tenable link with our culture and how it developed.how it developed. in the same fashion that hunting large animals had a tenable impact on the development of our brains and language in the past. it no longer has any impact today.

Given that the only tourist's opinion we have on the matter (from the Letters to the Irish Times around the time of the debate) expressed support for the move to rename Irish place names in Irish, why do you feel tourists should be force-fed English place names?
force-fed? thats rich given that it was the locals who were force fed something. the english and 'irish' name for the town co-existed in the past. i dont care if they decided to put up a guess at where the name Dingle came from, its the complete removal, without the residents consent, of the actual name of the place, Dingle from any signage around the town that i find ridiculous. How would you feel if one day, for seemingly no reason at all, all evidence of "Dublin" was removed from signage around the city?

GavinZac

08/04/2007, 2:47 PM

However, gavinzac is trying to argue that Irish is irrelevanttrue...

and (trying to argue) that tourists are happy with names in English
false :confused:

they have no problems with names in Irish, and actually prefer them. Whether the name is genuine or not, although it sounds a contradiction to say it, isn't relevant to the point I'm making.is creating a fake image and idea of our country and culture not one more step toward being a micky mouse country? sure give the tourists what they want and bring back the horses and carts on o'connell street.

kingdom hoop

08/04/2007, 2:49 PM

argh gavin you've created uncertainty. lads i can assure you 'daingean' is not made up, and more appropriately daingean ui chuis is the correct name. which translates as fort of chuis, fact. a point, particularly americans, tourists would find very interesting, 'yes the name of the town is named after the fort on that hill yonder, occupied by mr.chuis some 300 years ago'. much better than saying that england decreed that all place names must be anglicised so that they could get their tongue around the vernacular and suppress the influence of the irish language and thereby belittle our ancestors, but then thats not part of our culture either i guess

pineapple stu

08/04/2007, 2:56 PM

How would you feel if one day, for seemingly no reason at all, all evidence of "Dublin" was removed from signage around the city?
Wouldn't bother me.

Anyways, you're flip flopping now. You're saying that we shouldn't change a place whose name is known to tourists, which is ignoring the fact that tourists appear unfazed at all by it.

You're reduced to tabloidising the issue, to be honest, likening Irish to dead monks, scribes and now horses and carts. Not particularly strong arguments, to be honest. You've ignored numerous salient points such as the actual rise in popularity in Irish today. The lack of support for your views indicates to me that they're not any sort of representation of the views held by people in general, even though you're quite adamant that the language is irrelevant, which is effectively force-feeding your views on to other people ("Why do we want to we want to portray ourselves as something we are not?", for example). You're also putting views into tourists' mouths (i.e. the notion that they're silly coming to Ireland looking for Irish).

If you can't make your argument without putting words in other people's mouths, your argument can't be very strong at all.

osarusan

08/04/2007, 3:03 PM

Unbelievable!!!

Had to log back on to tell you all.........just as i was about to go to bed here in Japan.........what comes on the TV?

A 13 minute short film, made by Bord Scannan na hEireann and TG4........as gaeilge!

What a coincidence!!

Its pure sh!te though.

GavinZac

08/04/2007, 3:04 PM

Wouldn't bother me. Anyways, you're flip flopping now. You're saying that we shouldn't change a place whose name is known to tourists, which is ignoring the fact that tourists appear unfazed at all by it.These tourists being the ones that read the Irish times, obviously.

You're reduced to tabloidising the issue, to be honest, likening Irish to dead monks, scribes and now horses and carts. Not particularly strong arguments, to be honest. You've ignored numerous salient points such as the actual rise in popularity in Irish today.what? where? :confused:
The lack of support for your views indicates to me that they're not any sort of representation of the views held by people in generalwell, i'd be careful before i take foot.ie as a representation of the views of people in general! and besides there is at least one participant in this thread who has agreed with me.

even though you're quite adamant that the language is irrelevant, which is effectively force-feeding your views on to other people ("Why do we want to we want to portray ourselves as something we are not?", for example)thats posing a question, which no-one has answered, not imposing my views. the truth of the situation is that we are not an irish speaking country. why the insistance on, to take a small, insignificant example compared to the waste in education and EU administration, irish language signs?

You're also putting views into tourists' mouths (i.e. the notion that they're silly coming to Ireland looking for Irish).this is about the fourth time you've completely disregarded or "misinterpreted" what i've said. where did i say that? Who can blame tourists for coming to see something quaint and romantic?

If you can't make your argument without putting words in other people's mouths, your argument can't be very strong at all.Something you could try adhering to yourself, given that you havent been very adept at representing what i've said.

kingdom hoop

08/04/2007, 3:34 PM

you've failed to convince me of anything gavin i'm afraid. just one point, you say;

I entirely disagree with anyone suggesting the majority of people promoting the irish language are doing it for political reasons.

i'll reasonably infer that you dont have a problem with people promoting the language out of their love for it and the associated cultural kick they get out of it. so if it happens that this group is strong enough without needing to directly influence political matters then you should aim your anger away from the language, and question why such a supposedly insignificant and unloved faction can effectuate such grand crimes on society without any reciprocal gains for the populace

GavinZac

08/04/2007, 4:14 PM

i'll reasonably infer that you dont have a problem with people promoting the language out of their love for it and the associated cultural kick they get out of it.
well, not entirely. as i said, i don't think its right to equate the language with culture. they would be misguided, rather than malicious.

so if it happens that this group is strong enough without needing to directly influence political matters then you should aim your anger away from the language, and question why such a supposedly insignificant and unloved faction can effectuate such grand crimes on society without any reciprocal gains for the populacewell thats a whole other argument, one i've no doubt would end up with angry accusations. as well as the reasons you gave above, I would argue that the group you speak of are facilitated somewhat by a number of not-so-rosey-in-the-garden factors, in a similar fashion to those who would delude themselves with ideas of omnipotent, creative gods. i am not giving these as the be all and end all reasons for the current optimism surrounding the future of the irish language but i would include:
elitism amongst the new middle class in sending their child to a gaelscoil
pressure to conform to a "patriotic" ideal that somehow it is "more irish" to speak gaeilge.
better funding, higher standards and the free CAO points associated with gaelscoils.
tangible results from the major investment in providing reasons to know irish, eg TG4, EU funding, housing grants
the "cool" factor someone mentioned above - in essence, a bandwagon.
the improvement of teaching methods instigated in recent years (obviously not from my experience, my significant other is a teacher)
the network effect, in economic terms. e.g. a 'product' that becomes more valuable the more other people use it - fax machines, languages.

also, i wouldnt agree that i have any inherent hostility toward the language itself - if we all spoke it we obviously wouldnt be having this conversation. rather, my ire is directed at the, if not futility, unnecessary nature of promoting it. the idea that if we lost the gaelic language we (as a people) would somehow be less irish (a contradiction of terms surely - we are what we are) is what frustrates me, all stemming from the central argument i've given, that language is merely the media by which culture is conveyed, rather than a part of the culture itself. i would rather my taxes and other people's efforts go toward preserving, and creating more valuable parts of irish life. we need more hospital beds and art, not gaeilgóirs and Dunmharu ar an Dart.

pineapple stu

08/04/2007, 5:22 PM

These tourists being the ones that read the Irish times, obviously.
Tourist comes to Ireland. Reads paper - happens to select the Irish Times. Leaves and on arrival back home, sends an e-mail to said paper. It's actually quite common. Maybe you should check the facts before commenting on it.

You're reduced to tabloidising the issue, to be honest, likening Irish to dead monks, scribes and now horses and carts. Not particularly strong arguments, to be honest. You've ignored numerous salient points such as the actual rise in popularity in Irish today. what? where? :confused:
Try here -

sure give the tourists what they want and bring back the horses and carts on o'connell street.
and here -

is it an inferiority complex or embarrassment that makes people think that exhuming a clumsy dead language with little or no literature of value would be better than being proud of the culture we actually live in today, the culture of Irish people and not long dead monks and scribes?
and, if your confusion related to the second point, then I'll refer you to here -

As a side note, gaelscoileanna are at record popularity, Irish is probably "cooler" and more accepted than at any time in the past few decades with the likes of TG4, Hector, live football and so forth and it's actually not uncommon to hear people, particularly younger people, talking in Irish.
and here -

You'll find a lot of older Irish people who express regret at not having more Irish.

Come on - surely you have actual points to make rather than ignoring what's been said already and engaging in tabloid-style debating (i.e. your What? Where? comment, which failed to address any relevant points).

You also never showed me how I was being hypocritical earlier.

GavinZac

08/04/2007, 5:36 PM

and, if your confusion related to the second point, then I'll refer you to here -
and here -
Come on - surely you have actual points to make rather than ignoring what's been said already and engaging in tabloid-style debating (i.e. your What? Where? comment, which failed to address any relevant points).
yes, I hadn't seen that post. i've checked and you edited it in, in the last post on page one. Funnily enough I've sort of addressed that above, when addressing KH's point about how things like the daingean farce are allowed to happen.

You also never showed me how I was being hypocritical earlier.:confused:
You: "Right, well your mind is obviously made up, so I'm not going to bother arguing with you."
Me: "thats quite hypocritical ... the equation of culture and language shows that either you didnt read or my post or you simply ignored it because 'your mind is obviously made up'."

kingdom hoop

08/04/2007, 6:13 PM

right, you've conveyed your opinion a bit better, maith an buachaill!! i would flatly reject the majority of what you say however. before i detail why i'll just put two quotes of yours up for the laugh;

what the hell has a dead language got to do with our culture?

before you say;

i wouldnt agree that i have any inherent hostility toward the language itself

if you're calling a live language dead then i think you are showing hostility towards it. like if a person you didnt like was bleeding after an accident and you had the option to stick a plaster on and revive the person you wouldnt, in your eyes they should be dead already. i acknowledge your point that you dont like the language because you see it as some sort of fake symbol of irishness but calling it dead to back up this point is well wide of the mark and to me displays a hostility, ignorance and bias(however inadvertent) that jettisons the legitimacy of your argument. but thats just a technical gripe, no major worries!

the idea that if we lost the gaelic language we (as a people) would somehow be less irish (a contradiction of terms surely - we are what we are) is what frustrates me, all stemming from the central argument i've given, that language is merely the media by which culture is conveyed, rather than a part of the culture itself.

your ideological tenet is that language is not an intrinsic element of culture. having never studied the interrelation of language and culture i'm a bit blind here in what is no doubt a well-researched field of study. but as an amateur i would deduce that language must be a part of culture, as the way we express ourselves(language) must be somehow psychologically related to our actions and thinking(culture), like for example the way we say 'you're not going for a pint are you?' in a negative sense when it could be said in a positive sense. now, trying not to get in too over my head, i would venture that a close examination of the irish language and its development over the centuries could lead to some notable findings of the way people were thinking. if someone, maybe gavinzac or whoever, knows more then i'd appreciate enlightenment!

anyway, i dont think the main point concerns whether we are less irish without our language but rather that we are more with it. how can one argue for more funding for road-bowling and a rejuvenation of crossroad dancing but say a language should be neglected. yes they may be worthy causes and activities but at the same time, at least in some people's eyes and leaving aside the cultural aspect aside for a moment, so is a language. i love the english and french languages, does that mean i'm happy to jeopardise coral reefs, wild bears or legislation for pedestrian crossings? no, merely they are other aspects of peoples lives that regardless of importance to me, i respect the need for their preservation and would not quibble about funding on their behalf.

now for the reasons you feel irish should be consigned to the grave that you feel it already has fallen into, though you curiously now admit there may be some evil resurgence

elitism amongst the new middle class in sending their child to a gaelscoil

what? are irish schools now fee paying? the schools people go to revolve around location primarily, then friends, but elitism? 'oh ya, I'm sending my son to an irish school, i'm great and better than everyone else with their common english-speaking schools' - i must be out of touch. personal choice if parents do decide that, not one-upmanship.

pressure to conform to a "patriotic" ideal that somehow it is "more irish" to speak gaeilge.

pressure from who exactly? a persons patriotism is subjective, and they are the judges. some of our leaders have been gaeilgeoirs, while others havent, they are no less irish. as a speaker of irish i happen to feel more irish, but i dont go around saying i'm better than you, or look down on anyone who doesnt. its a controversial issue, but do we ask new citizens to pass an irish test? in this era i fail to see how it is a patriotic ideal, as you've said yourself we ought to move with the times

better funding, higher standards and the free CAO points associated with gaelscoils.

absolute poppycock. where did you do your research? better funding? good one! higher standards of teachers is it, in that people who can speak irish are somehow intellectually superior?;) free CAO points? ya and you get an 'i love ireland' t-shirt on presentation of your six A1s:rolleyes: i can only be caustic to that rubbish.

GavinZac

08/04/2007, 6:19 PM

absolute poppycock. where did you do your research? better funding? good one! higher standards of teachers is it, in that people who can speak irish are somehow intellectually superior?;) free CAO points? ya and you get an 'i love ireland' t-shirt on presentation of your six A1s:rolleyes: i can only be caustic to that rubbish.

i'm finishing up in work at the moment so i'll address the matters of facts rather than opinion - summed up by a blogger on www.gaelport.com

The Leaving Certificate examination results, upon which the CAO system depends are unfair. It is not a level playing field for all students.

To encourage students in a bygone age to study Irish, a bonus system was introduced, where students doing their Leaving Cert through Irish gain a percentage bonus which is added on to their overall result in the particular subject.

Students doing the examination gain a bonus of from three per cent to ten per cent depending on subject.

All subjects get a bonus except Irish, English, Technical Drawing, and Art (other than History and Appreciation of Art).

Take the example of a student studying Honours History who earns 60 per cent which is a C grade. The bonus will increase the marks to 66 per cent, a C+ grade, or a gain of five points in CAO system.

If another student gets 69 per cent C+, the bonus will increase the marks to 75.9 per cent, a B+ grade, or a gain of ten points in CAO system.

Above 75 per cent the bonus decreases linearly, so a student getting a 79 per cent B in History gains only eight per cent of 79 per cent, or 6.3 per cent approximately, resulting in 85 per cent A. That's a gain of ten percentage points.

In fact any student studying a subject which is entitled to a ten per cent bonus will gain at least five points if their marks are between 41 per cent and 90 per cent approximately.

One must remember that most subjects are marked out of 300 marks to 600 marks, so a percentage may be as much as six marks.

Most students take at least seven subjects, which include English and Irish and Maths.

With the right choice of subjects a good average student gains at least 20 points and possibly five points from Maths (bonus five per cent) depending on their score.

kingdom hoop

08/04/2007, 6:27 PM

whats your point? our were you just being disingenuous when you said free CAO points?

whats next, german nationals who move here shouldnt be allowed do german cos they get free points too?

GavinZac

08/04/2007, 6:33 PM

whats your point? our were you just being disingenuous when you said free CAO points?um... its a reason for the high attendance to gaelscoils? an extra 20 points is like gold dust in the CAO these days.

whats next, german nationals who move here shouldnt be allowed do german cos they get free points too?:confused: i have no idea what that has to do with anything (or that you can do your leaving cert through german :confused: ), but i listed the reasons simply "as i see it" rather than as an attack on anything. if you think the bonus 5% in every subject is not a reason for attending a gaelscoil, fair play, thats admirably short sighted.

edit: i think you thought i meant that they'd just do better in irish as a subject because they actually learn it properly. thats not the case. you actually do get an extra 5% for doing them through irish

pineapple stu

08/04/2007, 6:55 PM

On the hypocrisy point, your notion that language and culture don't equate is generally rejected by any sensible definition of either term - the fact that, for a very brief period of our history, the majority of the country hasn't been speaking our language (it never died (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Languages#Recently_extinct_languages), despite your claims to the contrary, and is in fact currently re-emerging, for good reasons or bad) doesn't diminish its relevance to the extent you are suggesting. In that event, I'm not being hypocritical, as you suggest - I'm being right. There are plenty of references on google for this - just enter language national culture - and indeed our own languange makes reference to this fact - "Tír gan teanga is tír gan anam"

I think the gaelscoilleana point is overstated, to be honest. Yes there's bonus marks (is that blog accurate as to how they're attributed, incidentally? It's a formula I've never heard before, even from people I know who went to gaelscoilleana), but there has to be a desire on the parents' part to educate their children in their national language as well; if they don't care about Irish, they're going to find it hard to assist their child in any manner in their school work (an important follow-up to school-work and homework), and so sending children to gaelscoilleana purely in order to cheat the CAO isn't likely to be as succesful as it may initially sound.

kingdom hoop

08/04/2007, 7:15 PM

:confused: i have no idea what that has to do with anything (or that you can do your leaving cert through german :confused: ),

the german thing was an analogy in reference to people gaining a seemingly unfair advantage without accounting for associated encumbrances.

like if a german girl came over she'd obviously do great in german but her geography might struggle on account of her having to translate all the technical words. thus taking up a lot of time in the exam thinking of words when you'd rather be thinking of the next big point, as well as all the time in class when the teacher would presumably have to give out the vocabulary. also, textbooks may not exist in all subjects or are often of a poor quality. given the views you've expressed i dont see how i convince you its a worthy idea but its certainly not a case of 'free points' as you mention. i'll just say that hopefully there will be enough gaeilscoileanna around the country soon so that everyone can avail of this perceived loophole:p