Can anyone say this isn't stupid?

[GavinZac]

What do you think of that Gav?
I think its fantastic. University is where more obscure interest subjects should be taught to people who genuinely want to learn it either for a career or just out of interest. if we could provide the same course in an irish university, we'd be flying, because apparantly some english university can teach in 2/3 years what the irish system fails to do in 14.

[kingdom hoop]

I think its fantastic.

I'm glad to see you have departed from your earlier stance. ;)


if we could confine the irish language to history we'd be flying.

[GavinZac]

I'm glad to see you have departed from your earlier stance. ;)
Did you actually read the text? This course teaching it as history -
"It is also the only university anywhere that allows students to study Irish in its wider context, as one of a network of ancient languages and culture that define the heritage of these islands."

"the first English university to teach both modern and medieval forms of the language."

But either way, by history I mean something which is interesting to a few people to look back on. That is what this course is, it is not an attempt to force every school child into learning something they have no use for. That is the context in which it is fantastic.

Of course, the worrying part of this is..

"the Irish Government has provided funding to the university to help make the course a reality"
"Irish Government funding has enabled the university to employ a modern Irish teacher, Dr Karrina Hollo"

Yet another bizarre pouring of money which could be better spent.

[kingdom hoop]

Did you actually read the text? This course teaching it as history -
"It is also the only university anywhere that allows students to study Irish in its wider context, as one of a network of ancient languages and culture that define the heritage of these islands."

"the first English university to teach both modern and medieval forms of the language."

But either way, by history I mean something which is interesting to a few people to look back on. That is what this course is, it is not an attempt to force every school child into learning something they have no use for. That is the context in which it is fantastic.



Possibly the most self-contradicting post ever.:D

[GavinZac]

Possibly the most self-contradicting post ever.:D

explain?

[kingdom hoop]

Exaggeration fair enough, but you asked me if I had read the text when you hadn't yourself.

"Cambridge will tomorrow launch its first classes in modern Irish.":)

Then you quoted this bit; "the first English university to teach both modern and medieval forms of the language." And start talking about history when the notable thing is the introduction of modern Irish.:confused:

People who can't hold their hands up and admit to being wrong make me feel good about myself, for that Gavin, I thank you.;)

[GavinZac]

Exaggeration fair enough, but you asked me if I had read the text when you hadn't yourself.

"Cambridge will tomorrow launch its first classes in modern Irish.":)

Then you quoted this bit; "the first English university to teach both modern and medieval forms of the language." And start talking about history when the notable thing is the introduction of modern Irish.:confused:

People who can't hold their hands up and admit to being wrong make me feel good about myself, for that Gavin, I thank you.;)

I've had to restart this post since that javascript alert about a new private message clears the text box for some reason so I'll try to remember as best I can what I had said.

The course is (or is at least described as) a Celtic History and Languages Studies course similar to the one we have at UCC. That the Irish government has funded them to hire a modern gaeilge (i.e., well versed in such contrived words as "telefón" or "rádio") teacher is not somehow a vindication of the teaching of the Irish language here, but rather a damning indictment of force feeding the language to kids here - that is, that my own proposition, the teaching of the irish language to those who voluntarily choose to learn it over the course of 3 or 4 years, rather than forcing it upon kids for 14 years, at either university or secondary level is being shown as a viable option EVEN with extra topics thrown in such as the theory of celtic languages and their relationships and development.

That is why its fantastic, and I'm sure your own pig headedness will get quite a buzz from me pointing this out.

[kingdom hoop]

The course is (or is at least described as) a Celtic History and Languages Studies course similar to the one we have at UCC. That the Irish government has funded them to hire a modern gaeilge (i.e., well versed in such contrived words as "telefón" or "rádio") teacher is not somehow a vindication of the teaching of the Irish language here, but rather a damning indictment of force feeding the language to kids here - that is, that my own proposition, the teaching of the irish language to those who voluntarily choose to learn it over the course of 3 or 4 years, rather than forcing it upon kids for 14 years, at either university or secondary level is being shown as a viable option EVEN with extra topics thrown in such as the theory of celtic languages and their relationships and development.


My point was simply that modern Irish has been acknowledged as being important enough for a university in Cambridge to start a course. Thereby extending the opportunity to learn the language to a whole new category of people when you think it has no relevance etc.

Fair play to the Government for supporting an initiative to widen the promotion of Irish language and culture

[GavinZac]

My point was simply that modern Irish has been acknowledged as being important enough for a university in Cambridge to start a course.They're not starting a course, they're adding a modern language to provide context to a Celtic Studies course. That they hired an Irish teacher and as such will be teaching Irish as the chosen modern celtic language is down to irish government funding (specificly, the Department of Rural Communities and The Gaeltacht, which is dominated by self-promoting money wasting "gaeilgóirs" whose neglect of that other part of the department is far more responsible for the collapse of the rural community than drink driving bans) in hiring an Irish teacher rather than Welsh, Scots Gallic or Breton.

[kingdom hoop]

It was hardly the Government who went to the university.

Let us not get caught up in the semantics of course/class the fact is Irish is seen, by the people who know about these things, as a language with modern day relevance. Why would they bring in a dead language to add contemporary context? And don't say it's some conspiracy please

[GavinZac]

It was hardly the Government who went to the university.
You think Cambridge University asked our government for funding? Would it make any difference if our government didnt chastise them for their neck but actually gave them what they wanted?


Let us not get caught up in the semantics of course/class the fact is Irish is seen, by the people who know about these things, as a language with modern day relevance. Why would they bring in a dead language to add contemporary context? And don't say it's some conspiracy please
They wanted to teach the basics of the one the languages they've been learning the history of. They chose Irish because it was being funded. No conspiracy, just an economical decision by the college and a bizarre waste by our government.

Just to add some input from "people who know about these things", here are the comments of one editor of Wikipedia.org on the (later revoked as vandalism) removal of Irish from the list of endangered languages.

"I'm a huge supporter (and an optimistic one, I'd like to think) of Irish, but as far as I'm aware the number of regular, fluent, and native speakers is nowhere near stabilized. It is a very endangered language. There has doubtlessly been a recent resurgence of interest, but I think most realists will tell you that Irish is going to die out within a century or so if the current situtation does not change. And by dying out, I mean that the Gaeltacht will be effectively no different than the Galltacht. Gaelgeoirí are in the minority in most Gaeltachtaí already. It's thrilling to see the slow change in attitude, manifested by phenomena like the gaelscoileanna, but more needs to be done. The situation for Irish is undeniably brighter than that of Gaelic or Breton, but it is in no way ready to be seriously removed from a list of endangered languages (I hear many would argue that neither is Welsh, but that's a different story). Rath Dé ort. Andrew 19:45, 8 July 2006 (UTC)"

[kingdom hoop]

You think Cambridge University asked our government for funding?

Maybe you know more than me but yes. I would look to which is more likely - the University deciding to expand a curriculum or the Government asking them to do so. I would say the former is more likely. If so, well done to the University for spotting the opportunity to improve their service in an area where they thought an interested benefactor was likely to help out.



They wanted to teach the basics of the one the languages they've been learning the history of.

Apparently a bit more than the basics; "Dr Karrina Hollo, who has already begun classes at beginner, intermediate and advanced level."

This is wonderful news. Hopefully the next George Thomson will be along soon enough. GT was a legend. Born in London in 1903, at the age of 20 he took a trip to the Blaskets, quickly falling in love with the language. He befriended an islander, Muiris O Suilleabháin, and immersed himself in the language for six weeks, quickly acquiring a lovely turn of phrase; Bhíodar beirt sé seachtaine i dteannta a chéile. Arsa Muiris: "Nuair a bhí an téarma sin caite, is aige a bhí an Ghaeluinn go blasta." Indeed, spotting Muiris' story-telling talent, George impelled Muiris to write the famous work Twenty Years A'Growing; Thuig Seoirse gurbh an-scéalaí é Muiris is d'áitigh air leabhar a scríobh ar shaol an Bhlascaoid. B'shin mar a tháinig Fiche Bliain ag Fás ar an saol, ****as rómánsúil ach ****as atá lom lán le gile is iontas na hóige.:)

As for that wiki thing, it would be a very sad day if Irish was no longer spoken ina gceantar dúchais. But is that not more of a societal issue than a fault with the language?

[GavinZac]

Apparently a bit more than the basics; "Dr Karrina Hollo, who has already begun classes at beginner, intermediate and advanced level."Well thats fantastic, they manage to get to advanced level irish (although i dont know what advanced irish is defined as in southern england) in 3 or 4 years. We have to literally immerse someone in irish for 14 years to get them to advanced level! See the power of making something voluntary and teaching it at a level where people really commit? Its a fantastic example, as I've said, and I'll probably end up using it in future arguments elsewhere


As for that wiki thing, it would be a very sad day if Irish was no longer spoken ina gceantar dúchais. But is that not more of a societal issue than a fault with the language?
Its not a fault with the language. Its just a language. Is it societies fault? I wouldn't say fault, more "society is the cause". If we have no use for something, it often goes away, like car elevators (fascinating if you want to spend a few minutes with google) or dublin city fc :D

[kingdom hoop]

Well thats fantastic, they manage to get to advanced level irish (although i dont know what advanced irish is defined as in southern england) in 3 or 4 years. We have to literally immerse someone in irish for 14 years to get them to advanced level! See the power of making something voluntary and teaching it at a level where people really commit? Its a fantastic example, as I've said, and I'll probably end up using it in future arguments elsewhere

Do if you wish to embarrass yourself. For one the intellectual capacity of a third level student would dwarf that of a child so that's a poor comparison. Secondly, if subjects are made voluntary then students wouldn't know what to pick, they'd pick what their friends were doing, or what teacher was the most lenient etc. Most people probably only liked one or two subjects in school, so blame the system then not the subject. As it happens I think a broad education, and not just academic, at second level is far more preferable, let people find their strengths so they can then specialise in college, and basically give them a platform from which they can sprout.

Having been educated in Irish I know I won't have any regrets later in life concerning my relationship with the language. However if I never had studied it I would be confident in saying that I would curse the system for forcing me to make a whimsical decision about a key constituent of this island's heritage at such an impressionable age. Perhaps more senior members of the forum could vouch for such a view

Nice Redknappism as well by the way, 'literally immerse' in Irish:o



Is it societies fault? I wouldn't say fault, more "society is the cause". If we have no use for something, it often goes away, like car elevators (fascinating if you want to spend a few minutes with google) or dublin city fc :D

I didn't say fault either. Rather the gradual depopulation of Gaeltacht areas is a societal trend, for now at least while the country is recoiling from decades of rural idyll in favour of urban anonymity and hedonism. That's why yer man said Irish is endangered, not because people have no use for it.

[GavinZac]

Do if you wish to embarrass yourself. For one the intellectual capacity of a third level student would dwarf that of a child so that's a poor comparison.Yes, that is why they are open to learning specific, specialist topics that shouldnt be applied to everyone.

Secondly, if subjects are made voluntary then students wouldn't know what to pick, they'd pick what their friends were doing, or what teacher was the most lenient etc.
Thats very patronising, most secondary students pick subjects related to their career goals and certainly most university students do. By making things voluntary, you restrict them to people that actually want to learn. You progress much faster, and you raise the standard that eventually gets taught. I would have thought this would be a good way to "save" irish, giving a minority a very strong grasp of it rather than the majority a cúpla focal.

Most people probably only liked one or two subjects in school, so blame the system then not the subject. As it happens I think a broad education, and not just academic, at second level is far more preferable, let people find their strengths so they can then specialise in college, and basically give them a platform from which they can sprout.


Having been educated in Irish I know I won't have any regrets later in life concerning my relationship with the language. However if I never had studied it I would be confident in saying that I would curse the system for forcing me to make a whimsical decision about a key constituent of this island's heritage at such an impressionable age. Perhaps more senior members of the forum could vouch for such a viewBut, to be honest, you're in the extreme minority. you were educated in the minority system where you knew no different than to know irish. who knows, you might even occasionally get a use out of it down in kerry. for every 1 person who thinks they would be "forced to make a whimsical decision" by making irish optional at some level, there would be 100s who would say "a whimsical decision was made for me" by making it compulsory.

[pineapple stu]

most secondary students pick subjects related to their career goals
That's nonsense - most people in secondary school haven't a clue what their career path is. They end up picking one language, one science and one business subject because that's what they're told is best.


But, to be honest, you're in the extreme minority.
Hasn't stopped you ranting off for the last ten pages with hardly a soul in agreement with you.

[GavinZac]

Hasn't stopped you ranting off for the last ten pages with hardly a soul in agreement with you.

The only people arguing with me are people that went to gaelscoils, which is pretty pointless as they are, in a way, an example of what i've been advocating, choice in learning irish.

[pineapple stu]

Doesn't change the my point - no-one's in agreement with you (they'd post in your favour otherwise), yet you tell someone else they're in the minority?

If you gave schoolchildren choice as to what subjects to learn, they'd do sex ed, sport and probably not a lot else. Kids under 18 anyway should be told what to learn by and large, because they aren't mature enough to make the calls themselves, and they don't have the life experience to see what's useful or interesting later in life.

If that sounds harsh, well, it's the way it's always worked, here and in other countires, and seems to have been doing well.

[GavinZac]

Doesn't change the my point - no-one's in agreement with you (they'd post in your favour otherwise), yet you tell someone else they're in the minority?how does posting on foot.ie change the reality that people that attended gaelscoils are in the minority :confused:


If you gave schoolchildren choice as to what subjects to learn, they'd do sex ed, sport and probably not a lot else. Kids under 18 anyway should be told what to learn by and large, because they aren't mature enough to make the calls themselves, and they don't have the life experience to see what's useful or interesting later in life.You're being ridiculous. you honestly think we should take away optional subjects from leaving cert students? :eek:

[Erstwhile Bóz]

the Department of Rural Communities and The Gaeltacht, which is dominated by self-promoting money wasting "gaeilgóirs" whose neglect of that other part of the department is far more responsible for the collapse of the rural community than drink driving bans
Explain to me, there, if you wouldn't mind:
1. Who you think these Gaeilgeoirs are and how exactly they are meant to dominate the department. The current Secretary General is no Gaeilgeoir: he is an appointment from outside the department who started going to Irish lessons when he arrived four years ago; as it stands only one of his three assistant secretaries can speak Irish. Of the 46 officers of assistant principal officer grade or higher, only ten can speak Irish, nine of these in the Irish-language or Gaeltacht sections; more remarkable in context of their domination of the department, only 3 of the 15 principal officers speak Irish, and all of these are in the Irish-language or Gaeltacht sections.
2. How, exactly, these Gaeilgeoirs manage to magically promote themselves in disregard of civil service bureaucracy and why their ringleader (the assistant secretary with responsibility for Irish, the Gaeltacht, and Charity Law) never thought of promoting more than 3 of his minions to positions of more power in sections other than those that deal with Irish and the Gaeltacht;
3. How the actions of these 1+3 Gaeilgeoirs in administering the allocation of funds for constantly reviewed projects and schemes on the final authority of the minister of an elected government can be described as 'wasting money' any more than the legitimate actions of any other civil servants speaking any other language in any other section of any other department in the country (preferably with some reference to the relevant accounts or annual reports rather than what you yourself reckon them to be spending);
4. How the 1+3 Gaeilgeoirs are "more responsible for the collapse of the rural community than drink driving bans" :rolleyes: through their neglect of "that other part of the department" (the 12 out of 15 sections of the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs under the control of the 2+12 Béarlóirí that do not deal with Irish or the Gaeltacht, in which the three Gaeilgeoir POs do not work and over which their Gaeilgeoir assistant secretary overlord has no control except the section that deals with charity law ... is it your position that the new charity regulations are killing the country way of life??);
5. How you claim so much knowledge about the inner workings and politics of a government department and yet do not know what the department is called or what its remit is.

Otherwise, please stop talking through your hat. Or stick to fact-free bloggish musings about the betterness of a purely anglophone society rather than slanderous specifics that you can actually get pulled up on. :)

[GavinZac]

Explain to me, there, if you wouldn't mind:
1. Who you think these Gaeilgeoirs are and how exactly they are meant to dominate the department. The current Secretary General is no Gaeilgeoir: he is an appointment from outside the department who started going to Irish lessons when he arrived four years ago; as it stands only one of his three assistant secretaries can speak Irish. Of the 46 officers of assistant principal officer grade or higher, only ten can speak Irish, nine of these in the Irish-language or Gaeltacht sections; more remarkable in context of their domination of the department, only 3 of the 15 principal officers speak Irish, and all of these are in the Irish-language or Gaeltacht sections.
2. How, exactly, these Gaeilgeoirs manage to magically promote themselves in disregard of civil service bureaucracy and why their ringleader (the assistant secretary with responsibility for Irish, the Gaeltacht, and Charity Law) never thought of promoting more than 3 of his minions to positions of more power in sections other than those that deal with Irish and the Gaeltacht;
3. How the actions of these 1+3 Gaeilgeoirs in administering the allocation of funds for constantly reviewed projects and schemes on the final authority of the minister of an elected government can be described as 'wasting money' any more than the legitimate actions of any other civil servants speaking any other language in any other section of any other department in the country (preferably with some reference to the relevant accounts or annual reports rather than what you yourself reckon them to be spending);
4. How the 1+3 Gaeilgeoirs are "more responsible for the collapse of the rural community than drink driving bans" :rolleyes: through their neglect of "that other part of the department" (the 12 out of 15 sections of the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs under the control of the 2+12 Béarlóirí that do not deal with Irish or the Gaeltacht, in which the three Gaeilgeoir POs do not work and over which their Gaeilgeoir assistant secretary overlord has no control except the section that deals with charity law ... is it your position that the new charity regulations are killing the country way of life??);
5. How you claim so much knowledge about the inner workings and politics of a government department and yet do not know what the department is called or what its remit is.

Otherwise, please stop talking through your hat. Or stick to fact-free bloggish musings about the betterness of a purely anglophone society rather than slanderous specifics that you can actually get pulled up on. :)

You don't need board positions, all you need is a loud enough self-righteous lobby group with a monopoly on patriotism :rolleyes: answer the point of what i'm saying rather than nitpicking on pathetic little seating arrangements. is it or is it not an example that shows that the language can be more efficiently taught to those who choose to do so at a sensible age?

[Erstwhile Bóz]

You don't need board positions, all you need is a loud enough self-righteous lobby group with a monopoly on patriotism :rolleyes: answer the point of what i'm saying rather than nitpicking on pathetic little seating arrangements. is it or is it not an example that shows that the language can be more efficiently taught to those who choose to do so at a sensible age?
What are you on about? You said that "the Department of Rural Communities and The Gaeltacht, [...] is dominated by self-promoting money wasting "gaeilgóirs" whose neglect of that other part of the department is far more responsible for the collapse of the rural community than drink driving bans". I asked you to explain yourself, in the face of the facts. I ask you again.

[kingdom hoop]

is it or is it not an example that shows that the language can be more efficiently taught to those who choose to do so at a sensible age?

How can you tell when the classes only started today? But that question is so far removed from your previous stances that I think you are just clinging on to one aspect of a very diverse topic that you had to turn to after flailing elsewhere.


You don't need board positions, all you need is a loud enough self-righteous lobby group with a monopoly on patriotism

Back to this conspiracy is it?

The fact that 'open-minded' people like you feel the need to polarise a language and equate it to patriotism is pathetic in this day in age. I suppose if a unionist learned Irish he should be shot for treason is it? A language is part of the cultural capital of a country, there for the hoi polloi to be tapped into. Personally I get quite a 'kick' out of Irish, if you don't then that's a pity but everyone has different tastes so that's fair enough.


The only people arguing with me are people that went to gaelscoils, which is pretty pointless as they are, in a way, an example of what i've been advocating, choice in learning irish.

Well if other people agree with you why has no one said so? It is a forum, open to all to air their views, no need for shyness. I disagree with you that Irish has no cultural importance, which was your starting point. It's easy to change your tune now to this whole right to choose thing. I've mentioned previously how my mind is open in this regard but if that were to happen I would only be happy with a complete overhaul of the education system as I don't see the point in making Irish optional for the sake of it. Just to categorise where we are; is that your only point now, or will we be flitting around some more with snide digs thrown in to add 'weight' (they really only detract from your opinion)?

[Erstwhile Bóz]

The only people arguing with me are people that went to gaelscoils
That's not true.

[pineapple stu]

how does posting on foot.ie change the reality that people that attended gaelscoils are in the minority :confused:

You're being ridiculous. you honestly think we should take away optional subjects from leaving cert students? :eek:
Neither of those have anything to do with my point, and you know it.

[GavinZac]

How can you tell when the classes only started today? But that question is so far removed from your previous stances that I think you are just clinging on to one aspect of a very diverse topic that you had to turn to after flailing elsewhere. i've given up on most of what i've been trying to say as its like talking to a brick wall. you resurected the thread with your talk of the university course and asked what i thought, so i told you what i thought of that particular course.

Well if other people agree with you why has no one said so? It is a forum, open to all to air their views, no need for shyness. I disagree with you that Irish has no cultural importance, which was your starting point.why would they bother? the majority of responses to what i've said could be boiled down to "nuh-uh", its like trying to reason with a creationist. as i said, i'd given up myself but since you brought up this university course was interesting in that its an example of something i had earlier been advocating.

if that were to happen I would only be happy with a complete overhaul of the education system as I don't see the point in making Irish optional for the sake of it.
its not just for the sake of it. take the compromise position of leaving irish at the core of primary teaching, but allowing it to be chosen at junior or leaving cert level. to synopsise, i would argue (sp?):
1. It should not be a core subject and should be optional like other career/interest specific subjects like metalwork, music or geography.
2. By introducing choice, you're creating a group of motivated, interested pupils who will likely move at a much faster pace than a mixed group. O/H level does this, to a point, but in H Level Irish the standard, at least in my school, was well below even conversational irish.
3. Optionalising the subject, even at leaving cert level, would reduce the workload on students by (assuming 7 subjects) 14% or would give an extra 2.3% time to each subject or would give an extra ~5% time to 3 weakest subjects or could take another, more career orientated subject
- (too tenous to get a point of its own) as a benefit of less workload, students would be under less pressure and as such, perhaps secondary drop-out rate and the growing problem of depression/suicide by male teens could possibly be helped a little.
4. The students choosing to study irish optionally would leave with a level of irish near or at par with those doing a secondary gaelscoil (by virtue of not, as someone pointed out, wasting time translating books in other subjects). From this increased pool of truely fluent students, rather than many "good-intentioned" people with cupla focal, further development of the language could progress and perhaps these students would use their fluency to raise their children with irish, thus helping the cause of people wishing to see an irish speaking nation some day. win-win, surely?

[kingdom hoop]

i've given up on most of what i've been trying to say as its like talking to a brick wall.

This is priceless



the majority of responses to what i've said could be boiled down to "nuh-uh", its like trying to reason with a creationist.

You think we are brick walls but yet you are happy to reduce the multifarious points made to only a rejection of your opinion. Saying things like that deserves ridicule you hypocrite. :mad:

As it happens I am the most pliable brick wall around as I never tell people what to do, just my thoughts on the matter. I listen, start making opinions and then discuss what was propounded to elucidate the whole situation. An example of this is the pressure you said you were under to speak Irish so that you wouldn't feel less Irish. I pretty much told you not to worry about it, that a person's patriotism is subjective, but that from my perspective I would advise you to appreciate Irish as I get a 'kick' out of it and it nourishes my patriotism. Also, did I not say that I was open to the idea of 'optionalising' Irish, if that makes me a brick wall we all need to evacuate our houses pronto.

The reason my mind is open in light of current circumstances is because it is such a labyrinthian issue, drawing on the nebulous concept of the purposes of education. For what it's worth I think that the style of education for Irish is what comes against it and not futility (you would probably echo that point I'd imagine).

The disaffected sentiment you convey in relation to Irish as a subject is a crying shame so something should be done as a result. I don't see making it optional as having any long term difference unless the syllabus etc is changed. Such that if the system was satisfactory I would have Irish as a compulsory subject at all levels as I place a high degree of importance on its existence in that it is not, in your words, a mental landfill. Anyway, the points you put forth fail to sway me.



1. It should not be a core subject and should be optional like other career/interest specific subjects like metalwork, music or geography.


I don't think people pick subjects in school on account of future careers. You can't assume 12/13 year olds know what career they want, and even at that, that they pick their subjects to match. (This was dealt with earlier as well) Yes the kids have interests but to bow to such interests without regard for their long-term interests seems foolhardy. Like, in my school I would have political type geography as compulsory up to Junior Cert to avoid American-like ignorance of the world. Kids may not be overly interested in it at the time but it will serve them well in the future. Secondary education should not revolve around choice and interests, that's what third-level and general life is about.



2. By introducing choice, you're creating a group of motivated, interested pupils who will likely move at a much faster pace than a mixed group. O/H level does this, to a point, but in H Level Irish the standard, at least in my school, was well below even conversational irish.


I don't know about this really, it's kinda similar to the previous point. A big assumption. We're talking about secondary school, how many students are particularly interested and motivated by their subjects?



3. Optionalising the subject, even at leaving cert level, would reduce the workload on students by (assuming 7 subjects) 14% or would give an extra 2.3% time to each subject or would give an extra ~5% time to 3 weakest subjects or could take another, more career orientated subject
- (too tenous to get a point of its own) as a benefit of less workload, students would be under less pressure and as such, perhaps secondary drop-out rate and the growing problem of depression/suicide by male teens could possibly be helped a little.


Yes, dropping a subject gives you more time to do others. You can do six subjects if you wish. Or one can choose to do an extra ten minutes work every night if one feels they are neglecting a subject. I accept the point that one can go more in depth into other subjects but I don't see how this relates to Irish more so than any other subject, i.e. that is the system we have.

The last remark is outrageous. Over the course of this thread you have cast some ridiculous aspirations that, in my mind at least, severely tarnish your opinion; off the top of my head you have now linked Irish, in some form or another, to suicide, fascist mentality and corrupted public servants. You are the first, and probably only, person that I have lost respect for on this forum. I don't care if this is an over-reaction or sounds a bit hissy but using such farcical and poignant comparisons in a serious attempt to bolster an argument is downright wrong.



4. The students choosing to study irish optionally would leave with a level of irish near or at par with those doing a secondary gaelscoil

Not a chance:p

Lastly, apologies to all for the near essay length of the post and at times personal nature of it. Of course, I don't mean to hurt Gavin at all. Being a Cork man he should be used to bowing to Kerry people, thats what this is really about!:) Oh yeah, and if the people who haven't been bothering to say that they have been agreeing with GZ's posts your opinion would be most welcome. Peace out

[GavinZac]

Also, did I not say that I was open to the idea of 'optionalising' Irish, if that makes me a brick wall we all need to evacuate our houses pronto. I'm not referring to the optionalisation of Irish, I'm refering to the suggestion I made initially which has somehow lead to me making post ~50 or so in this thread. Obviously some people just aren't going to be convinced of the seperation of language and culture and i've given up, i'm not going to write a thesis on it.

I don't think people pick subjects in school on account of future careers. You can't assume 12/13 year olds know what career they want, and even at that, that they pick their subjects to match. (This was dealt with earlier as well) Yes the kids have interests but to bow to such interests without regard for their long-term interests seems foolhardy. Like, in my school I would have political type geography as compulsory up to Junior Cert to avoid American-like ignorance of the world. Kids may not be overly interested in it at the time but it will serve them well in the future. Secondary education should not revolve around choice and interests, that's what third-level and general life is about.

I don't know about this really, it's kinda similar to the previous point. A big assumption. We're talking about secondary school, how many students are particularly interested and motivated by their subjects?Generally people don't make option choices at 12/13, Not, at least, in our school. You talk of "without regard for their long term interests", but surely for the vast majority of people, Irish is not a long term interest. I'm sorry if it seems callous but its a fact, 95% of people around me can just about recall a few sentences if pushed, and that tally including herself from Colaiste Phiarsiagh and her friends! At 15/16, they would have been doing Irish for 11 years and would be fairly able to make a decision about whether they enjoy it or not - and there ain't much point to it other than enjoyment unless you're a fine lass from connemara who wants to do intros for TnaG :D those who enjoy it would usually be good at it, and would be able to push faster and to a higher standard for the leaving cert. given that as a higher level student i can barely sprinkle english with a few words of "an teanga náisuinta", this can only be a good thing both for the students and for the language itself.

Yes, dropping a subject gives you more time to do others. You can do six subjects if you wish. Or one can choose to do an extra ten minutes work every night if one feels they are neglecting a subject. I accept the point that one can go more in depth into other subjects but I don't see how this relates to Irish more so than any other subject, i.e. that is the system we have.So.. thats the system we have and we're stuck with it? :confused: the exam/education system is supposed to reflect the production of a rounded, confident and knowledgable workforce with high skill value. Its why we have free education; its extremely good for the economy to give companies what they need. Thats why english and maths are core subjects, english enables one to communicate with virtually anyone in the world eloquently, and maths/logic is central to everything from algebra to zoology. What is Irish central to? Surely, if after 11 years of studying it a student just doesnt have any care for it, it is counter-productive to force them to continue as they will merely waste their own time and other's time.
I would not force a student to do music, even if it would probably be very healthy for the mind and certainly at least as culturally educational as the language. its an option because most people would like to do it at some stage, but not in the most important exam set in their lives, unless they were actually good at it and had a lot of interest. The exact same can be said for irish.

The last remark is outrageous. Over the course of this thread you have cast some ridiculous aspirations that, in my mind at least, severely tarnish your opinion; off the top of my head you have now linked Irish, in some form or another, to suicide, fascist mentality and corrupted public servants. You are the first, and probably only, person that I have lost respect for on this forum. I don't care if this is an over-reaction or sounds a bit hissy but using such farcical and poignant comparisons in a serious attempt to bolster an argument is downright wrong. :rolleyes: I said it was tenuous. I run an depression/suicide awareness forum, http://SpeakOut.biz . I've seen plenty of kids freaking out about exams, hell i was one of them. workload is one factor in that, no matter what subject it is. Do you think I would use it lightly as an example just to make a point to yourself? Seriously, come off it.

[kingdom hoop]

I'm not referring to the optionalisation of Irish, I'm refering to the suggestion I made initially which has somehow lead to me making post ~50 or so in this thread. Obviously some people just aren't going to be convinced of the seperation of language and culture and i've given up, i'm not going to write a thesis on it.


50 odd posts = thesis. (no pun intended) It would have been a lot more enlightening:p The commonly held view of culture would include language. I accepted that this may not be true. And attempted to figure it out for myself in light of the lack of any scholarly, or otherwise, links on this subject that you might have provided to assist your slightly unusual claim.

I ran through a few thoughts in post 45, leaving the door open for you to have a debate - however despite saying you'd deal with it you never did. But you expect me to believe that languages are only mediums of culture. I said about TG4, Gaeltachts, Scór, Foinse but you didn't acknowledge that there is a culture around the language even if the language itself isn't a part of culture. I've brought up the issue of national identity, but to no comment from you. But of course you famously (no acknowledgement of your cheekiness and being pulled up either:cool: ) have boiled things down to just nuh-uh.



Generally people don't make option choices at 12/13, Not, at least, in our school.

Your education proposal was to have Irish optional at Junior Cert level so that's why I brought up 12/13 year olds. If you look at previous posts I said 15, again this is your tendency for petty contradictions but not to worry. Anyway, your point about no one having long-term interest or usage relates to what I was saying about the syllabus etc being poor. If you were to select 100 thirty five year olds from any country and asked them if they would like to have learned one of their country's official languages I would venture upwards of 95% would say yes. The point is, just because people may have found it hard to learn has very little to do with an inherent lack of interest in the language. Making the subject optional is not the panacea you believe it is. Saying the fact that the language isn't liked because it is compulsory is a bit of a cop-out. It is blatant that the education system has failed the language, nor are people educated as to the value of the language. I would be confident that if it was taught well with a better plan then people would be happy to see it retained as compulsory.

As a kind of personal aside, I place a lot of value on patriotism in a person's character - not nationalism, we did that when we had to - and as part of that I put language as a driver of the well-rounded, knowledgeable citizens aimed for. In schools there isn't much chance to engender an appreciation of one's country, subliminally or otherwise, so I would differentiate Irish from music and such on those grounds. Obviously that's not to say that a grá for Irish is implicit in patriotism but I think it helps. In my view this would be a good benefit if we could rejig the system in some way. But don't get me wrong, this would be a resulting benefit for our souls not a political justification.

Maybe students have too much work to do, but to pin Irish with the blame is unfair. Maybe employers would rather their workers had not learned Irish, in favour of chemistry etc but it seems nowadays that most people go on to third level so I wouldn't expect employers to look at the subjects you picked in school as a judgment parameter. If you feel that Irish is constraining the economy and so on I think you could bring a lot more arguments about the education system into the equation than the fact that Irish is compulsory. It is possible removing its status would be a good thing but the only compelling reason is that of personal choice, a little flawed itself, so in light of everything I've said I don't agree it should be demoted. Nor do I think it is fair to reduce education to its basic utilitarian function, language is a safeguard against intellectual degeneration. From personal experience I've always found languages easy to learn, I would not be surprised if the fact that I was immersed in two languages at a young age was a major help - but that's a different debate really I suppose.

Overall I think making Irish optional is down the list of potential solutions. If 95% of people you know, especially as it includes people who went to scoil lán-Gaelach, can't string a sentence or two together then making the subject optional isn't going to make enough difference to revive usage.

[GavinZac]

As a kind of personal aside, I place a lot of value on patriotism in a person's character - not nationalism, we did that when we had to - and as part of that I put language as a driver of the well-rounded, knowledgeable citizens aimed for.

Thats where we diverge I think, I don't really care for patriotism. While I do obviously feel an affinity or empathy for people similar to myself (evolution ensures that) myself, i can't honestly say that i have more or less in common with someone in ireland than someone in england or south africa. There are some cultural differences, of course, but i would rather be proud of them indiviually, and on merit than by default. People don't choose their own nationality and personally i would rather look to the collective human experience in history that is now becoming somewhat of a world culture, rather than attaching myself to something which is essentially a very recent invention, the nation-state. Cynics, and as you've probably guessed i have a tendency to be a bit cynical, would say the nation-state is nothing more than a paradigm put forward when people weren't willing to die for a divinely inspired monarch, or when the people they were supposed to be killing was the same religion. Nevertheless, it has been a huge part of the formation of the societies in which we live. I'd just like to think that given the burgeoning availability of communication, education and travel, we can start to transcend differentiators like religion, language barriers and borders and accept that for the most part, we're all very much alike. Europe, more than any other part of the world, learned these lessons in a bloody, horrible way by killing each other in vast quantities, and today we are in a secular (increasingly, atheistic), borderless society, and as our migrant worker chums have showed, enjoying a lingua franca.

Returning to education and the language's place in it, perhaps you're right and the problem is that it is being taught wrong. I don't doubt that there are significant problems! However, without any real suggestions as to how to improve it, and having seen some very, very enthusiastic teachers who would dearly love to teach the language as best they possibly can, it remains that immersion is the obvious best way to speed adoption, and raise quality of adoption of any language. Realistically, not everyone can or will attend a gaelscoil to gain full immersion (in school at least, given that very many of the g.s. attendees i know are from entirely english speaking families), but if we analyse how immersion works, its by providing a combination of motivation and high quality.
Like spending a summer in France, being downright required to speak a language and at least understand a fluent/native speaker vastly improves the rate and quality of learning almost by necessity. It is built into us, in our very genes! The mental capacity to adopt a foreign tongue when stranded amongst strangers is a very handy evolutionary trait and something which we all have. Likewise, surrounding a motivated pupil with other motivated pupils and engaging them on level terms as a native speaker rather than speaking down to them to the weakest student's level would provide much stronger irish speakers from our normal schools.
I would go as far as to say that we are in fact half-way to adopting irish as optional as it stands! Higher level classes obviously benefit by raising that level where the teacher has to teach to the weakest student. Ordinary levels have no such guard as to the lowest standard the teacher will teach to, and as such you can have situations like that in my own school were O level students were memorising verbs by rote shortly before the exams. So we have one group of better motivated, better able students who are almost getting the kind of specialised study described in an optional subject. They get the benefit, in part at least, of optionalisation. However, it is those stuck in O level who bear the brunt of not having the choice.

[kingdom hoop]

Much more constructive post:p

Just as we are touching on the patriotism issue, I view it more as an individual thing in this day in age. In that there is no need to feel a connection with your fellow countrymen as such, but to have a relationship between you and your country howsoever embodied. When meeting foreigners this reflects well on you and your country. To be fair, Irish people do have a strong sense of identity and regard for our country, evinced by our seemingly innate desire to please tourists and taking it almost as a personal affront if someone has a complaint. Though I do wonder if this attitude is waning as we get all modern and uppity. Maybe there is a causal link between this and the negative experience people have with Irish in school??! It can't help at any rate.

As for your wish for more convergent cultural experiences uninhibited by the confines of the nation-state, curiously, the most pertinent example I can think of is Ulster unionists feeling the urge to learn Irish. I came across a very insightful, if long, investigation of the Irish language in NI some time ago. Basically the feeling amongst middle-class unionists is that they see Irish as a means of binding their community;

"This language was here before any of this conflict between Protestant and Catholic. I think that’s something that would do an awful lot for the advance of this country and the advance of community relations, if Protestants became more aware of the cultural heritage that they share with their Catholic neighbours And they lack a real cultural heritage, this nonsense of beating Lambeg drums on the ‘Twelfth’, really, it’s a bit shallow. I was trying to tap into that on my own as well, learning Irish ... I would like to see some kind of attempt to raise the awareness among the Protestant people of the cultural awareness that they share with everybody on this island, instead of saying ‘no’ to everything that doesn’t wear an orange and purple sash, which is really what it’s become." - The whole thing can be read here - http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/issues/language/mccoy97.htm

As I was looking back through bits of it a few salient points popped up; " Among Protestant learners there was an almost universal regret that the language had not been introduced to them during their school years."

That kinda links with my point (and your's about choice to an extent) of people only realising when they are older that learning the language in school would have been worthwhile. As they were growing up they probably wouldn't have wanted to learn Irish but really enjoyed it when they reach an age where they appreciate such things, as appreciation follows age (or relative maturity in my case:D ) like night day. Such that making people choose whether or not to do the subject at a susceptible age seems unfair, especially if they had parents with your type of opinion who wouldn't encourage their children to learn it.

A problem at the moment is that once people leave school, like you I'd imagine, they have lost the desire and opportunity to learn it forever on account of the ambivalence experienced in school. I think it differs from music, history and the likes in that you will 'get into them' anyway if you want to after school regardless if you didn't learn much or the curriculum was sh!te. What's more, as an adult it is much more difficult to learn a language compared to a child who will pick it up instinctively.

My opinion would be that some reform needs to occur first. Then see if people still can't learn it (is it really that hard a language, or what is the problem?) and then make it voluntary if it appears that it is still wasting people's time and giving them a bad impression as it is at the moment. But the important thing is to firstly give the language a chance to prosper . As someone who really likes the language, views it as an important constituent of our country and a believer that a bilingual upbringing is great intellectual nourishment I would dearly love to see a lot more education through the medium of Irish. The downsides are minimal to be honest, like the standard of English won't suffer unduly, not for me anyway, A1 in the Leaving:p. A significant factor in either medium though is that people need to know why they are learning Irish so that they really grow an appreciation and continue to nurture it after school, it must be viewed as a lifelong partnership not just a subject for a few years.

My main problem is that if choice were to be introduced the sub-standard curriculum needs change anyway to serve those who really are motivated to learn Irish, so why bring the choice in first?

[kingdom hoop]

N'fheadar cé mhéid daoine a bheidh in ann é seo a léimh, ach seo chúimh ar aon nós;

Anois ar theacht na bhforógraí

Tuarascail Pol O Muiri Eagarthoir Gaeilge
Leanann cúrsaí an olltoghcháin ar aghaidh agus tá na páirtithe ag foilsiú a gcuid forógraí diaidh ar ndiaidh agus cur síos iontu ar a gcuid polasaithe i leith na Gaeltachta agus na Gaeilge.

Scríobhann Fianna Fáil ina bhforógra, Anois, Na Chéad Chéimeanna Eile, nach bhfuil "aon chomparáid idir teist Fhianna Fáil agus teist aon pháirtí eile maidir le cur chun cinn ár dteanga dhúchais. Sna blianta deireanacha, thugamar tacaíocht d'fhorbairt na nGaelscoileanna, dhúblaíomar an deontas do TG4, ritheamar an tAcht um Teangacha Oifigiúla, agus d'éirigh linn stádas a fháil don Ghaeilge mar theanga oifigiúil san Aontas Eorpach. Baintear i bhfad níos mó úsáide as an teanga agus tá níos mó tuismitheoirí ná ariamh ag roghnú oideachais trí Ghaeilge dá bpáistí."

Mar léiriú ar an teist sin, tá forógra iomlán Fhianna Fáil le fáil i nGaeilge. Sa rannóg "An Ghaeilge agus An Ghaeltacht", scríobhann an páirtí go bhfuil dearcadh "dearfach agus uaillmhianach" acu ar an Ghaeilge agus go bhfuil siad diongbháilte ar struchtúir a bhunú a chuideodh le daoine úsáid a bhaint aisti.

Chuige sin, geallann Fianna Fáil go bfoilseoidh siad "roimh 2008, plean straitéiseach 20 bliain chun fás a bhaint amach in úsáid na Gaeilge agus sa dátheangachas, plean cuimsitheach i gcomhair leathnú a bhaint amach in úsáid na Gaeilge ar an oileán go léir".

Déanfaidh siad úsáid na Gaeilge ar scoil 'a fhás'; cuirfidh siad feabhas ar an churaclam agus béim níos mó ar an teanga labhartha agus tacóidh siad le bunú Gaelscoileanna agus Gaelcholáistí.

Beidh sé mar chuspóir acu tacaíocht a thabhairt don tseirbhís phoiblí le seirbhísí "cuimsitheacha" trí Ghaeilge a chur ar fáil agus a fhorbairt agus beidh an Ghaeilge agus cúrsaí Gaeltachta faoi chúram Aire "a bheidh ina lánbhall den Rialtas".

Ó thaobh na Gaeltachta de, scríobhann Fianna Fáil go "bhforbróimid plean cuimsitheach bunaithe ar staidéar teangeolaíoch den Ghaeltacht le codanna soiléire agus éifeachtacha chun úsáid na Gaeilge sa Ghaeltacht a chaomhnú agus a fhorbairt" agus go neartóidh siad na dlíthe pleanála leis an Ghaeltacht a chosaint "i slí a thacaíonn le forbairt leanúnach na Gaeltachta gan cur isteach ar a teanga ná a cultúr".

Tá mír Ghaeilge i bhforógra Pháirtí an Lucht Oibre, The Fair Society. Scríobhann an Lucht Oibre go gcaithfear "athmheasúnú bunúsach a dhéanamh ar chur chuige an Stáit maidir le caomhnú agus athnuachan na Gaeilge. Leantar d'acmhainní suntasacha a infheistiú i dteagasc na Gaeilge, ach mar sin féin tá laghdú ag teacht ar úsáid na Gaeilge ó bunaíodh an Stát.

"Cé gur léir gur tharla cliseadh polasaí níl plean soiléir straitéiseach ar bith beartaithe do thodhchaí na teanga. Lena chois sin, níl mórán d'idirphlé idir an Stát agus an saoránach maidir le príomhcheisteanna nár réitíodh, lena n-áirítear an fhéidearthacht dátheangachas forleitheadach bheith ann."

Creideann Páirtí an Lucht Oibre go bhfuil gá "práinneach" le díospóireacht ar na ceisteanna seo: "Is é ár gcuspóir sa Rialtas ná díospóireacht leathan a spreagadh faoi thodhchaí na Gaeilge mar theanga labhartha agus é seo a úsáid mar bhonn do pholasaí amach anseo.

"Is í ár n-aidhm ná cur chuige an Stáit maidir leis an nGaeilge a leasú sa dóigh is go ndéanfar iarrachtaí pobal agus eagraíochtaí deonacha a athneartú trí mhaoiniú imleor agus go ndéanfar iad a spreagadh chun teacht i dtreis trí thacaíocht dhearfach. Is í ár n-aidhm ná stádas na Gaeilge a ardú mar theanga choiteann agus a ról sa saol cultúrach agus acadúil a athneartú."

I measc na rún atá ag Páirtí an Lucht Oibre, tá: fóram a bhunú ar Theanga na Gaeilge ina mbeidh "gach earnáil sa tsochaí agus gach geallsealbhóir ábhartha bainteach."

Tabharfaidh siad tacaíocht "ghníomhach" do thuismitheoirí (??)ar mian leo go bhfaigheadh a bpáistí a gcuid oideachais trí mheán na Gaeilge agus scrúdóidh siad an bealach is fearr le feabhas a chur ar litearthacht na Gaeilge i scoileanna na Gaeltachta agus Gaelscoileanna.

Déanfaidh siad scrúdú ar fhorbairt churaclam úr sa Ghaeilge do dhaltaí bunscoile agus iarbhunscoile ar cainteoirí dúchasacha Gaeilge iad agus iad siúd a théann ar scoileanna Gaeilge.

Coinneoidh siad rannóga na Sean-Ghaeilge agus na Meán-Ghaeilge agus Laidin na hÉireann ar ollscoileanna agus tabharfaidh siad maoiniú do bhailiú agus d'fhoilsiú an bhéaloidis agus amhrán mar chuid dá dtionscadal oidhreachta.

I mBéarla amháin atá forógra an Chomhaontais Ghlais, It's Time, agus is i mBéarla atá an mhír ar chúrsaí Gaeilge. Scríobhann na Glasaigh: "We believe that the Irish language is central to the cultural(that's for you Gavin:eek: ;) ) and social ecology of our country and would encourage its use as a priority in a future Green government."

Chun sin a dhéanamh, scríobhann na Glasaigh go n-athbhunóidh siad Comhchoiste an Oireachtais ar an Ghaeilge; go gcuirfidh siad béim níos mó ar ghníomhaíochtaí áitiúla a bhaineann le Gaeilge; go dtabharfaidh siad cumhachtaí níos mó d'Údarás na Gaeltachta agus údaráis áitiúla agus go mbunóidh siad ciste le margaíocht a dhéanamh ar thurasóireacht teanga sa Ghaeltacht.

Ó thaobh cúrsaí oideachais de, scríobhann siad go ndéanfaidh siad scrúdú ar riachtanais chúrsaí oideachais i gceantair Ghaeltachta "including the possibility of establishing a specific Education Board to deal with such matters" agus "introduce on a phased basis 'immersion education' in an all-Irish college as part of the mainstream teacher training process at primary level".

Ó thaobh na Gaeltachta de, is é cuspóir an Chomhaontais Ghlais: "set out the realistic boundaries for Gaeltacht areas with measures to help non-Gaeltacht areas to become Gaeltacht areas in future, with a proper strategy to support a healthy development of Gaeltacht communities and a separate recognition for Breac-Ghaeltachtaí."

To briefly paraphrase for any ignoramuses(:p ); FF say they've done great (doubled the grant to TG4, official status in EU) these last few years, will devise a 20 year plan for the language including an improved curriculum. Labour realise usage has slipped since the state's inception (in an effort to gloss over FF's 'achievements' presumably) and so will have a basic rethink, emphasising the input of citizens. Interestingly, Labour hope to set out new curricula for Gaelscoileanna. The Greens hope to restart an Oireachtas sub-committee and market 'language tourism' sna Gaeltachtaí. All very positive, it's easy to be cynical of course but let us hope anyway. Any thoughts from anyone?

[Erstwhile Bóz]

Fair play d'Fhianna Fáil as an bhforógra ar fad a bheith ar fáil i nGaeilge acu. Lasmuigh de sin, níl ann ach gnáth-ráiméis na bhforógraí.

Is ait liom, áfach, ná deintear aon phlé ar fhorógra Fhine Gael, más ann dó ... N'fheadar an bhfuilid ag cloí fós leis an bpolasaí a bhí acu fén nGaeilge éigeantach nó ná fuil. Cá bhfios dúinn?? Tá a fhios agam, ach go háirithe, ná fuil aon fhocal Gaeilge ar aon cheann dá gcuid póstaeirí atá feiscthe agam go dtí seo, pé scéal é. Agus fiú amháin sa Ghaeltacht fhéin, is i mBéarla amháin atáid. Bhí Enda Kenny ar Adhmhaidin ar maidin agus é seo á shéanadh aige. Chaith sé cúladh siar sa deireadh agus dúirt, "bhuel mura bhfuil faoi láthair, beidh".

Tá an-Ghaeilge ag Kenny, dálta an scéil, ach ní bheadh aon mhuinín agam as i dtaobh na teangan. Ná as an gCoiníneach ach an oiread, cé gur dóigh liom go bhfuil Gaeilge bhreá aige siúd, leis.

Sure ag deireadh na ndála is iad na státseirbhísigh (a thugann arduithe céime dóibh fhéinig) chéanna a leagfaidh amach aon pholasaí Gaeilge ... ;)

[GavinZac]

Fair play d'Fhianna Fáil as an bhforógra ar fad a bheith ar fáil i nGaeilge acu. Lasmuigh de sin, níl ann ach gnáth-ráiméis na bhforógraí.

Is ait liom, áfach, ná deintear aon phlé ar fhorógra Fhine Gael, más ann dó ... N'fheadar an bhfuilid ag cloí fós leis an bpolasaí a bhí acu fén nGaeilge éigeantach nó ná fuil. Cá bhfios dúinn?? Tá a fhios agam, ach go háirithe, ná fuil aon fhocal Gaeilge ar aon cheann dá gcuid póstaeirí atá feiscthe agam go dtí seo, pé scéal é. Agus fiú amháin sa Ghaeltacht fhéin, is i mBéarla amháin atáid. Bhí Enda Kenny ar Adhmhaidin ar maidin agus é seo á shéanadh aige. Chaith sé cúladh siar sa deireadh agus dúirt, "bhuel mura bhfuil faoi láthair, beidh".

Tá an-Ghaeilge ag Kenny, dálta an scéil, ach ní bheadh aon mhuinín agam as i dtaobh na teangan. Ná as an gCoiníneach ach an oiread, cé gur dóigh liom go bhfuil Gaeilge bhreá aige siúd, leis.

Sure ag deireadh na ndála is iad na státseirbhísigh (a thugann arduithe céime dóibh fhéinig) chéanna a leagfaidh amach aon pholasaí Gaeilge ... ;)

Is maith liom subh

agus caca milis

[ollie]

Sure ag deireadh na ndála is iad na státseirbhísigh (a thugann arduithe céime dóibh fhéinig) chéanna a leagfaidh amach aon pholasaí Gaeilge ... ;)
tu fein ina measc mar sin, an ea?

Is maith liom subh

agus caca milis

book Irish. we say ciste down south:p :D

[Erstwhile Bóz]

tu fein ina measc mar sin, an ea?
Ní bhfuaireas aon ardú céime, uaim fhéinig ná ó aoinne eile, ó thána isteach anso mar oifigeach cléireachais. Ag tagairt do rud a dúirt GavinZac cheana a bhíos.

Agus tá an ghráin dhearg agam ar pholaitíocht (agus ar pholasaíocht), don gcuid is mó ...

[GavinZac]

Ag tagairt do rud a dúirt GavinZac cheana a bhíos.
My mother was a saint! :mad:

[Erstwhile Bóz]

My mother was a saint! :mad:
Oops, sorry! Very rude.

The original bit was

Sure ag deireadh na ndála is iad na státseirbhísigh (a thugann arduithe céime dóibh fhéinig) chéanna a leagfaidh amach aon pholasaí Gaeilge ... ;)
At the end of the day it's the same civil servants (who give themselves promotions) will be laying out the Irish-language policy ... ;)

To which was replied

tu fein ina measc mar sin, an ea?
That includes you, then, eh?

And I said nope, haven't got a promotion yet, off myself or off anybody else, and the bit you quoted was: I was referring to something GavinZac said earlier.

Gaibhim pardún agat!

[kingdom hoop]

N'fheadar an bhfuilid ag cloí fós leis an bpolasaí a bhí acu fén nGaeilge éigeantach nó ná fuil. Cá bhfios dúinn??

Forógra FG;

THE IRISH LANGUAGE
Choice at Leaving Certificate
• We will substantially reform the teaching and learning of the Irish language in line with our published
proposals in this area, including giving all Leaving Certificate students the choice to study Irish for their
final two years in school.
New Leaving Certificate Subject
• We will radically reform the Irish language curriculum, and introduce a new subject at Leaving
Certificate level, Communicating in Irish, which will focus on giving students a real fluency and facility in
the Irish language.
Language Support Corps
• We will develop a specialist Language Support Corps to help individual primary schools which are having
particular difficulties with the teaching of Irish.

Here's what was passed ag an Ard Fheis;


A thorough review of the way in which the Irish language is taught in our schools;
• The second-level curriculum to be completely updated;
• The introduction of an oral component in the Junior Certificate Irish exam;
• A new and modern Irish subject to be introduced for the Leaving Certificate, and;
• All students to be offered a choice as to whether to study Irish after the Junior Certificate examination.

Does it not seem like the last point contradicts the others, almost like they are thinking we can keep everyone happy with this proposal. For Irish lovers there is the promise of a major revamp, and for those who couldn't give a sht ; the additional funding and time put into the revamp will be offset by making Irish optional. That would be my take on it at any rate.

I really like the idea of an emphasis on conversational Irish all up along, you're putting the cart before the horse if you expect people to understand poetry etc without being able to speak the language. But I think only introducing the Communicating subject at LC level is too late.

I think that down-grading the language would send out completely the wrong signal to people, and could do severe damage. I accept that it's hard to have your cake and it eat; FF are not going to do anything major just because they get back into power, so while the sentiment of FG is more attractive I'm not at all sure that the execution of it will be successful; no surprise there I guess.:(


Is maith liom subh

agus caca milis

Cén cineál subh? Is breá liom subh sméar dubh.

By the way, was that meant to be funny? My lips didn't move a smidge!

[kingdom hoop]

My mother was a saint! :mad:

:D

What did you think he said?

Is breá liom go bhféidir linn cuir in iúl dar chéile gan fhios do Gavin agus a leithead!!

[GavinZac]

:D

What did you think he said?
its from futurama :p


Is breá liom go bhféidir linn cuir in iúl dar chéile gan fhios do Gavin agus a leithead!!

Give me a bit of credit, in fairness ;)

[Erstwhile Bóz]

Forógra FG;

THE IRISH LANGUAGE
Choice at Leaving Certificate
• We will substantially reform the teaching and learning of the Irish language in line with our published
proposals in this area, including giving all Leaving Certificate students the choice to study Irish for their
final two years in school.
New Leaving Certificate Subject
• We will radically reform the Irish language curriculum, and introduce a new subject at Leaving
Certificate level, Communicating in Irish, which will focus on giving students a real fluency and facility in
the Irish language.
Language Support Corps
• We will develop a specialist Language Support Corps to help individual primary schools which are having
particular difficulties with the teaching of Irish.

Here's what was passed ag an Ard Fheis;


A thorough review of the way in which the Irish language is taught in our schools;
• The second-level curriculum to be completely updated;
• The introduction of an oral component in the Junior Certificate Irish exam;
• A new and modern Irish subject to be introduced for the Leaving Certificate, and;
• All students to be offered a choice as to whether to study Irish after the Junior Certificate examination.

Does it not seem like the last point contradicts the others, almost like they are thinking we can keep everyone happy with this proposal. For Irish lovers there is the promise of a major revamp, and for those who couldn't give a sht ; the additional funding and time put into the revamp will be offset by making Irish optional. That would be my take on it at any rate.

I really like the idea of an emphasis on conversational Irish all up along, you're putting the cart before the horse if you expect people to understand poetry etc without being able to speak the language. But I think only introducing the Communicating subject at LC level is too late.

It's a manifesto; it's going to be absolutely panacean at first glance but completely barmy under scrutiny. The bit about only introducing the "Communicating in Irish" for the last two years when, in their plan, only the top students would be lstaying on with Irish anyway seems ridiculous, though, you're right. Can't understand that one.

[kingdom hoop]

its from futurama

Cén chúis leis an ':mad:' mar sin?

Ar aon nós ní chonacthas riabh é, níl sé ar chlár TG4 in aon chor;)


Give me a bit of credit, in fairness


Beidh moladh tuillte agut nuair a ghlacann tú go bhfuil párt cinniúnach ag an Ghaelainn i gcultúr an dtír seo, agus é tríd mhean ár dteanga dúchais :p

[osarusan]

bloody germans taking over the message boards.

[kingdom hoop]

bloody germans taking over the message boards.

That bait was tasty, cheers:p

[SÓC]

I should not rise to yet another Gav anti-Irish thread but...

Gav ask anyone who did their leaving cert thorugh Irish would they rather modern up to date Irish langauge text books or the "free" points and I'll tell you most will go for the text books.