Polish guys view of Irish team

[pineapple stu]

Fair enough.

The earlier point was that we had 11 players in the Premiership, which not many national teams could manage. It was then mentioned that European clubs (the ones I mentioned) are more technically adept than the Premiership and so, even though we're one of few countries who can field an XI entirely from the top flight in England, Spain, Italy and Germany, we still shouldn't expect to be near the top ten in Europe.

[Lim till i die]

The point being made is that players with "second rate" clubs like Red Star, CSKA, Basel, Lens and Trabsonzpor are better than players at the English clubs.

Which English clubs??

If we're talking about the lower to mid-table teams Ireland cull most of their superstar squad from then yes players at the above clubs (Ok maybe not Basle and Trabzonspor) are of a higher quality

The point I was trying to make origionally (granted I made an ar$e of putting it across) is that players are coached far better on the continent than they are by the British/Irish model

If you take two fifteen year olds of equal ability and bring one up through the European system and one up through the British system I guarentee you the continental trained one will become a better more rounded player.

Therefore IMO as long as Ireland persist with British coaching methods they should have no right to expect to be ahead of similar sized nations (eg Serbia) where coaching from grass roots up is far superior

[cavan_fan]

As for The Premiership being the best league in the world, well for my money La Liga mops the floor with it each and every week. After that I'd take Serie A, the Premiership, Bundesliga and the Eredivise

I know that it's trendy to say La Liga is the best league in the world. But there is absolutely no evidence for this. All the evidence from this year is that the Premiership is more succesful. There may be some argument about 'technical quality' (I'm not entirely sure what people means by this but I suspect it means ball control). Happily football is all about results and on that basis the Premiership is far more succesful.

One argument is that the best Spanish teams are better than those in England. This holds no water this season. The big 2 in Spain are in a slump and Sevilla may win the league. But does anyone really think Sevilla are better than Chelsea or Man Utd. (Would they wipe the floor with them?)

The next argument is that the next 4/5 teams are better (more strength in depth). I'd say the next 4-5 teams in Spain are clubs like Osasuna, Espanyol etc. Are they really better than Tottenham, Bolton or Reading. There's not much evidence here, especially if you believe the UEFA Cup is not taken seriously. But I would be very doubtful that Espanyol would wipe the floor with Tottenham week in and week out.

Maybe the lower placed teams are better. Are Levante or Gimnastic better than West Ham or Charlton. This is even harder to argue as they never play each other and we know hardly any of the Spanish players but I would say that I'm not sure Ian Harte would be starting at any Premiership club.

So I cant really see any La Liga team wiping the floor with their equivalent in England.

[jebus]

I know that it's trendy to say La Liga is the best league in the world.

Yeah me and my scenester mates hang out clicking our fingers to La Liga coverage every night :rolleyes:

As for your points about the Premiership teams being better than La Liga, well thats just your opinion on them. Personally I think Valencia are the best team in Europe this season, followed by a Barcelona team in decline, but again thats just opinion.

Now whilst Spain hasn't covered itself in glory in this years Champions League (one bad year does not a bad league make by the way) neither has England. People who actually watched the second round ties instead of just looking at the results in the paper would have seen that United were poor in both legs against a weak Lille side, Chelsea scraped through against a Porto team who are nothing like their Champions League winning side, Arsenal were put out by an average PSV side, and Liverpool played good defensive football to knock out a Barcelona side, riddled with infighting and problems, on away goals. Not exactly the results needed to place the Permiership at the summit of football if you ask me.

Domestically then you go out and insult Sevilla, by saying they are only there because Barca and Real are a mess at the moment. Have you actually watched them play? They are playing some good stuff at the moment and deserve to be top of that league (or near the top, they've actually fallen to second at the moment). And while we're at it, why do you see competition as a sign of weakness in a league? You go on about Spurs and Bolton being stronger than Espanyol (which isn't really apt by the way, what about Atletico Madrid, Deportivo, Villareal, Betis?), but then why can they never push on for the title? Why is it that Sevilla are able to challenge Barca and Real, but in England no-one ever comes close to challenging for the title other than Arsenal, United and Chelsea? The fact that Villareal, Sevilla, Depor, etc. have in recent times is a sign of strength in depth, not of weakness. Would you not rather have a competitive league where there is 9 points between the top seven teams, or would rather have one where there is nine poitns between the top 2?

And finally, if you look at the relegation area in both leagues you'll find Watford (hopefully will never darken the Premier's doorstep again), West Ham (shockingly poor team by anyone's standards), and Charlton (see West Ham), whereas in Spain we have Bilbao, Sociedad and Gimnastic, three teams still in with a shout of pulling out of it, and three teams that, if you watched them play, would waltz through the defences of West Ham, Charlton and Watford. But again thats just opinion :)

[galwayhoop]

we could argue until the end of time what league is the best league. the fact is that after the big 4 in the premiership the league is very average. fair enough people are talking about the UEFA cup but that is a seriously poor competition at the moment with all the top teams in europe in the CL. yes, middlesborough got to the final last year - but even then they got hammered. celtic got to the final a few years ago and the dark side are still in this years competition so does that make the SPL a high standard league? no.

and if our players were really that good would they not be playing for the top teams in the premiership and not the padding? there is a reason why robbie keane plays for spurs and not man utd. why duff went to newcastle and not liverpool. personally it smacks of a lack of ambition to me. no willingness to test yourself at a really top club. secure the paypacket and to hell with winning trophies. a hunger and a drive to achieve the top honours are trademarks lacking in our international footballers today. these traits, combined with ability, are what make truly top footballers. you can have all the ability in the world but if you are not willing to fight for a place at a really top team you will never be a great player merely a talented one - matt le tissier anyone???

[Emmet]

why duff went to newcastle and not liverpool.

Chelsea would not sell him to Liverpool - they took a vastly reduced price from Newcastle precisely to avoid him ending up at Liverpool ... the Newcastle chairman actually thanked Chelsea at the press conference!!

As for other points raised in this thread about the English PL - Liverpool won the CL in 2005 and Arsenal reached the final a year later. Couple that with the success of English clubs this year and it really is abundantly clear that in Europe at least the English league is the strongest right now. The Spanish League has dipped from several years ago when Barca, Real Madrid, Valencia etc were a lot lot stronger than they are now; the Italian league is still recovering from the fall-out from the match fixing and they have serious off the field problems there as well which will take years to properly sort out. The Germans have one decent side - Bayern Munich. Werder Bremen, who are probably the second strongest side there, didn't get out of their group in the CL (which included Chelsea who finished top btw).

I can't see how anyone could argue there is a stronger league in Europe right now than in England.

[Lim till i die]

you can have all the ability in the world but if you are not willing to fight for a place at a really top team you will never be a great player merely a talented one - matt le tissier anyone???

Have to pull you big time there

One of the all time great English players

Had a little known quality called loyalty.

It's shameful how few England caps he got

[Billsthoughts]

Do you mean me by any chance.......cuase i never said that. I have a bit of cop on

no, Karlos with a K
He basically argued that there would be no more merit in appointing keane than staunton .....I know which one most Ireland fans would want now...
accept owlsfan who seems to think we should be happy in our mediocrity....

[jebus]

I can't see how anyone could argue there is a stronger league in Europe right now than in England.

If you're going on results than tell me, in the last ten years how many times have an English side won the European Cup, now tell me how many times a Spanish side has?

Which country is the trophy currently being held?

If you're going on quality of football, than I'df seriously suggest you watch Sky's La Liga coverage a bit more

[geysir]

I think he said Staunton would make a way better coach than keane....oh how I laughed

He basically argued that there would be no more merit in appointing keane than staunton .....I know which one most Ireland fans would want now...
A bit of a difference there Bill. No harm in a bit of accuracy now and again.
I don't remember you being around for this thread to argue any point, the same one
that Karlos contributed this to, referring to coaching credentials.

The fact remains, I've yet to see any credential that would entitle Roy to get the job ahead of any of the other prospective managers. He has as much chance as anyone else to get it but he is NOT more qualified or more entitled to the job than anyone else. If Aldo and Stan aren't good enough (and i believe that,) then neither is Roy.

[galwayhoop]

One of the all time great English players

Had a little known quality called loyalty.

It's shameful how few England caps he got

loyalty is one way of saying it but in fairness he will never be regarded as a truly great player as he achieved frig all. despite his undoubted ability he never pushed himself outside his comfort zone by moving to a top team. he choose to live the cushy life. it could be classed as loyalty or laziness. i'm going with the latter. that said he was class but unfortunately he never gave himself a chance by staying with southampton for his entire career.

[jebus]

loyalty is one way of saying it but in fairness he will never be regarded as a truly great player as he achieved frig all. despite his undoubted ability he never pushed himself outside his comfort zone by moving to a top team. he choose to live the cushy life. it could be classed as loyalty or laziness. i'm going with the latter. that said he was class but unfortunately he never gave himself a chance by staying with southampton for his entire career.

Agree with you there (yes thats right I'm agreeing with a Galway fan!), I'd call Le Tisser one of the most gifted players I've ever seen, and the loyalty he showed to Southampton is very admirable, that said he'll never be remembered as a great player because of it. I've always thought of him as the type of player you'd tell your grandkids about, but they'd look at you blankly when you mention his name.

In the same way as Le Tiss will never be remembered as a great player I've always felt that Roy Keane staying at United that time when his contract expired stopped him being regarded as a worldwide quality player. Had he gone to Italy or Spain and succeeded he would be remembered as one of the best midfield players of the 90s/00s, now I feel he'll be remembered by Irish, United and possibly English fans in the decades to come, but thats abpout it

[Emmet]

If you're going on results than tell me, in the last ten years how many times have an English side won the European Cup, now tell me how many times a Spanish side has?

Which country is the trophy currently being held?

If you're going on quality of football, than I'df seriously suggest you watch Sky's La Liga coverage a bit more

Why the last ten years? Surely what's happened more recently is a better measure of how good the leagues are now! How many players from the Spanish league were at the most recent European Championships? There were more players from the Premiership than from any other league. If La Liga is better overall please explain that stat to me. That stat which includes players playing in the better Premiership sides as well as players playing in the rest of that division ... what country were the team who knocked out the current holders from?

If you're asking me over the last ten years which European league is strongest I'd say Spain. Over the last three - four years, it's England.

[galwayhoop]

Why the last ten years? Surely what's happened more recently is a better measure of how good the leagues are now! How many players from the Spanish league were at the most recent European Championships? There were more players from the Premiership than from any other league. If La Liga is better overall please explain that stat to me.

again that may be one side of the coin but another side is that the EPL has players from more countries in it and less from its own country - and it's neighbours ireland, scotland & wales. could this not mean that local (and i use this very very loosly) players are not getting enough of a chance and therefore it is damaging the quality of player from these countries.

also a high percentage of players from south america play in the spanish and portuguese leagues - these lads cant play in the euro championships you know!

i would guess that there are a higher percentage of spanish players playing in la liga than english players in the premiership.

i am not saying one is better than the other but a high percentage of imports who play for mid table premiership teams and play for second tier european nations are no more than journeymen. albeit cheaper journeymen than those available from british teams.

[Emmet]

Fair comment there Galwayhoop - I hadn't thought of that. The reason there are so many South American lads in Spain and Italy though is (I think) because their country's work permit requirements are not anywhere near as strict as in England. It took Liverpool over a year to sign Mark Gonzalez because the British government wouldn't grant him a work permit!

[osarusan]

Why the last ten years? Surely what's happened more recently is a better measure of how good the leagues are now!

Do you not think that ten years provides a more accurate reflection of the true quality of a league?


But if you are going by the short term rationale....


If you're asking me over the last ten years which European league is strongest I'd say Spain. Over the last three - four years, it's England.
...then surely the Spanish league, where the current holders Barcelona come from, should come out on top.

[Emmet]

Do you not think that ten years provides a more accurate reflection of the true quality of a league?

It's an accurate reflection over the last ten years - yes. Not necessarily now though which is what I thought we were discussing.




But if you are going by the short term rationale....

...then surely the Spanish league, where the current holders Barcelona come from, should come out on top.
The Spanish League should come out on top because Barcelona are the current holders? Leaving aside the blindingly obvious facts that there is just one Spanish side in this year's CL Quarter Finals compared to three from England and that Barcelona, the current holders, have just been knocked out by an English side - don't you think it's a bit simplistic to argue that the best side in a league determines the quality of that league overall?

[eirebhoy]

2 things people are arguing. One that the premiership is stronger than the rest. Another is that the players in other European league's are more tactically astute. I agree with both but for international football the latter is more important imo. It means the guys are more intelligient and can settle into the team without having to play 10 games with each other.

Our most intelligient player is Andy Reid which says a lot. Duff and Keane are learning with experience but they wouldn't be the most tactically astute. McShane reads the game very well too. Stokes is incredibly intelligient for his age aswell. Other than that our players are pretty dull. They need a good manager to get the best out of them. I admire Nakamura so much because of his intelligience. He doesn't need to be told what to do. Strachan says even though he can't speak English he picks things up in training quicker than anyone else.

I don't know if you can really do anything about it tbh, you're born intelligient. It's no coincedence though that when you look at England's team they don't have many players that are exceptionally great at reading the game. No matter how much they play together Gerrard and Lampard can't play that "you sit back while I go forward" type system. To Ballack and Frings it comes naturally.

Don't ask me where I'm going with this but I just think the likes of Italy and Spain is full of really intelligient players and don't have to rely on the manager so much. Fabregas is already more tactically astute than most English players and he has spent his career in England so far.

[galwayhoop]

good points eirebhoy.

england's team is much more hustle and bustle with creativity and flair seemingly knocked out of players at a young age. the same can be said of our footballers in the main.

just look at larsson's impact on the premiership recently where everyone praised him. not even for his goal scoring abilities but his movement in general and awareness of things around.

in fairness the new FAI technical development plan has identified our need to coach youngsters in a more european way from the early years. this new style of coaching will greatly enhance players from a movement and tactical perspective from the early years. allowing players to fluctuate between formations, positions and tactical changes much more freely - like our continental cousins and not pidgeon hole them into positioins due to height, speed ...etc

in fairness players from ireland and britain are so regimented to the 4-4-2 system that any change is alien and takes a long time for it to get accross to players as stated earlier.

it's time to move away from the physical orientated nature of the game and begin to undo the lasting damage that the 'put em under pressure' ethos has ingrained into the game here!