All-Ireland League not practical – Jeffrey

[Steve Bruce]

And the crowds in the north at the minute are abysmal.

On Saturday Portadown [4th, and in a slump] couldnt have had more than 600 at their game, while from the tv pics Cliftonville [2nd, and on a roll] would be lucky if they'd 400 :(

Crowds where abysmal this Saturday. For a number of reasons. But I'm sure there are abysmal crowds some weekends at every LOI team to. It is not uncommon.

[dcfcsteve]

Crowds where abysmal this Saturday. For a number of reasons. But I'm sure there are abysmal crowds some weekends at every LOI team to. It is not uncommon.

Though undoubtedly crowds in the EL are better than crowds in the IL full-stop. We're only 2 games in to the 2007 season, but if the current crowds stay even vaguely close to where they are now across the season then we'll be way-ahead of the IL as a whole,a dn any individual IL team, on attendances.

Our first division average is tracking to be higher than the IL's Premier division average - and our First has some seriously badly supported clubs (Monaghan, Kilkenny, Cobh, Kildare)

No matter what way you chose to look at it, support for the IL is behind support for the EL. Whether or not we have the odd weekend of bad crowds ourselves doesn't alter that fact.

[wws]

Though undoubtedly crowds in the EL are better than crowds in the IL full-stop. We're only 2 games in to the 2007 season, but if the current crowds stay even vaguely close to where they are now across the season then we'll be way-ahead of the IL as a whole,a dn any individual IL team, on attendances.

Our first division average is tracking to be higher than the IL's Premier division average - and our First has some seriously badly supported clubs (Monaghan, Kilkenny, Cobh, Kildare)

No matter what way you chose to look at it, support for the IL is behind support for the EL. Whether or not we have the odd weekend of bad crowds ourselves doesn't alter that fact.

thereby underlining Jeffries wholly correct assertion that a merger of the two leagues is not practical.

I agree with him wholeheartedly and this thread underlines why it should never be on the agenda

[dcfcsteve]

thereby underlining Jeffries wholly correct assertion that a merger of the two leagues is not practical.

I agree with him wholeheartedly and this thread underlines why it should never be on the agenda

How can you claim that what is clearly an opinion from Jeffries - one perhaps influenced by the political ethos from which Linfield comes, and one that is clearly at odds with the views of many other IL teams/managers - is wholly correct ? Unless of course that is just your own opinion on the matter.

Why would having 2 leagues with differing attendance levels make integration unpractical ?? :confused:

There is nothing endemic in either league's attendance levels. Both have experienced dramatically better and dramatically worse attendances in the past. In particular - as they exist in the heartland for soccer on the island, teams in the north have greater 'potential' to attract crowds than most EL teams do.

Finally - is it impractical to have the Eircom first and Premier inter-connected, giving their widely differeing attendance levels ?? Does that mean we should no longer have promotiona nd relegation, as attendances suggest the 2 sets of teams just aren't compatible ?

[Steve Bruce]

Though undoubtedly crowds in the EL are better than crowds in the IL full-stop. We're only 2 games in to the 2007 season, but if the current crowds stay even vaguely close to where they are now across the season then we'll be way-ahead of the IL as a whole,a dn any individual IL team, on attendances.

Our first division average is tracking to be higher than the IL's Premier division average - and our First has some seriously badly supported clubs (Monaghan, Kilkenny, Cobh, Kildare)

No matter what way you chose to look at it, support for the IL is behind support for the EL. Whether or not we have the odd weekend of bad crowds ourselves doesn't alter that fact.

I would agree with most of that. But I do think that linfields average attendance is no less than your own.

Also going by sources on this site, the crowds from this weekend are down by 5000 from the weekend before. 22,000 the first weekend 17,000 weekend past. Which dont get me wrong is still a great attendance but I think there will be a continuing trend for most part of the season, with the average crowd per week would be around the 14-15000 mark. Which would still be 5000 or more, more than the IL.

I'm not going to argue who has the biggest support on this island, but all i'm saying is Linfield would definatly be up there.

But I do not base the biggest club by just support. A lot of things should be factored in, eg stadia/facilities, brand, support & Success.

I think its safe to say we have the best football ground on this island, facilities I'm not sure about, so wouldnt argue with anyone about that. But we do have our own training ground and have youth teams right down to under 10s.

We are a brand name, I'd say we would be one of the most well known clubs on this island, which I think is the reason we are the most shown club in the Setanta cup.

Support, Linfield and Derry City are the two best supported teams, unfortunatly for Linfield we are not allowed to bring our full extent of our support to away games. We had 1,300 at Shelbourne last season. We had around 700+ at Drogheda(Home tickets bought by Linfield, also people who paid in at the gate, or got in for nothing, also forgeries)

Success, there is no one who could argue with us on that. We have won more trophies than anyone on this island.

These are the criteria i would put down for being the biggest club on the island. And apart from some people in different clubs, most people would agree with that. Even the papers in the Republic would agree with that statement. As the headline showed a couple of years ago.

"Linfield remain high kings of Irish soccer"

With the first paragraph saying something like - A lot of things has happened in Ireland in the last 30 years, but one thing remains and Linfield are the high kings of Irish soccer.(irish independant)

So we've got the support, we have the stadium, we have the team, we have the success and we have our history.

Although some aspects might be better on other teams, but I think Linfield have everything better rounded than the rest.

[Mr_Parker]

And the crowds in the north at the minute are abysmal.

On Saturday Portadown [4th, and in a slump] couldnt have had more than 600 at their game, while from the tv pics Cliftonville [2nd, and on a roll] would be lucky if they'd 400 :(

Our crowd was down on recent weeks on Saturday but much of that was down to it being St Paddy's day parades etc, though I believe that the crowd was in the 500/600 region.

I would reckon that our average this season would be near 1,000.

[Da Real Rover]

MOD EDIT: Don't quote entire posts please.

To be honest i feel that shamrock rovers is the biggest club in ireland, imo the had enormous crowds milltown and they still achieve not far off your own attendances with no home ground. they also fill out the other criteria you have set down barring the stadium, hopefully that will be rectified soon.

[Steve Bruce]

To be honest i feel that shamrock rovers is the biggest club in ireland, imo the had enormous crowds milltown and they still achieve not far off your own attendances with no home ground. they also fill out the other criteria you have set down barring the stadium, hopefully that will be rectified soon.

Anyone but Linfield eh;)

[wws]

Pats are a by a mile but you'll always get the partizan leanings from the less objective posters rendering the argument futile.

Pats v Linfield - our paths will soon cross.

as they say in Highlander
There can be only one!

[lofty9]

Linfield are the big draw in Ireland. Everybody wants to beat the blues and they have that winning mentality of a big club, Anyone who thinks otherwise needs a realtiy check. Rovers went off the radar in 1987 after the sale at Miltown unfortunately.

[dcfcsteve]

To be honest i feel that shamrock rovers is the biggest club in ireland, imo the had enormous crowds milltown and they still achieve not far off your own attendances with no home ground. they also fill out the other criteria you have set down barring the stadium, hopefully that will be rectified soon.

Did you forget the smiley on there DRR, as you have to be having a laugh here, right ?!?!

Rovers the biggest club in Ireland ? Absolutely no way. Milltown Schmiltown - that was 20 years ago. Luton Town, Wimbledon and Oxford United were in the top level in England 20 years ago and were therefore big clubs attracting big crowds. Does that make them well supported now..... ? :rolleyes:

Rovers aren't even the best supported club in Dublin these days - let alone the EL or island.

And if the past makes a club big - why isn't Derry City the bighest club ? Back when Ropvers were still in Milltown, we were attracting 10,000 sell-outs to home games and taking 4-5,000 to away games every week. They didn't evemn come close to crowds like that in their final few Milltowen years. Why does historical situation make Rovers a big club and not Derry ? Unclear logic here methinks...

[Schumi]

Rovers aren't even the best supported club in Dublin these days - let alone the EL or island.Rovers are still the biggest club in Dublin IMO. Their crowds are still close to the highest in Dublin despite renting different grounds for years miles away from their heartland and are the top name in Dublin football for those who don't follow anyone.

[WeAreRovers]

Rovers are still the biggest club in Dublin IMO. Their crowds are still close to the highest in Dublin despite renting different grounds for years miles away from their heartland and are the top name in Dublin football for those who don't follow anyone.

Of course, ask any Taxi Driver. ;)

Our 22,000 on the first day in the RDS is testament to our (very) latent pulling-power. Just don't tell dcfcsteve - he has a bee in his bonnet about it.

KOH

[wws]

Of course, ask any Taxi Driver. ;)

Our 22,000 on the first day in the RDS is testament to our (very) latent pulling-power. Just don't tell dcfcsteve - he has a bee in his bonnet about it.

KOH

ahem....There for the Patricks as I recall

[Da Real Rover]

Did you forget the smiley on there DRR, as you have to be having a laugh here, right ?!?!

Rovers the biggest club in Ireland ? Absolutely no way. Milltown Schmiltown - that was 20 years ago. Luton Town, Wimbledon and Oxford United were in the top level in England 20 years ago and were therefore big clubs attracting big crowds. Does that make them well supported now..... ? :rolleyes:

Rovers aren't even the best supported club in Dublin these days - let alone the EL or island.

And if the past makes a club big - why isn't Derry City the bighest club ? Back when Ropvers were still in Milltown, we were attracting 10,000 sell-outs to home games and taking 4-5,000 to away games every week. They didn't evemn come close to crowds like that in their final few Milltowen years. Why does historical situation make Rovers a big club and not Derry ? Unclear logic here methinks...


As set down by the linfield fan, the requirements of the biggest club are, brand, history, ground, support etc. This wholey incompassing the past as well as the present.

I am aware that derry did pull large crowds in the past but nothing compared to shams. Just my opinion but the brand and the support and the heritage of shams are the biggest in ireland. They do lack a ground but surely that is testement to their support that they still pull decent attendances, as stated by the ucd fan.
Sound and evident logic methinks...

[rebelarmyexile]

pity about jeffreys negative opinions on All Ireland League. I would love to see something like the Rugby Magners League operating with the top soccer clubs on the Island, and therefore their would be no loss of Europe places.

[dcfcsteve]

pity about jeffreys negative opinions on All Ireland League. I would love to see something like the Rugby Magners League operating with the top soccer clubs on the Island, and therefore their would be no loss of Europe places.

The European places arguement is a total red herring.

Each team in the Irish League and Eircom League can currently compete for a maximum of 4 European spots each. In an AIL each team would still have 4 European slots to compete for.

Yes - competition for those slots will have increased, but that's the whole idea ! Also - you would get increased competition for European slots from ANY major changes you did even WITHIN the current individual league structures if they were ket separate : e.g. when the EL expanded in 1984-1985 (bringing in frequent European entrants like Cork, Longford, Derry and Bray).

If each team on the island was able to compete for 1 of the 8 Euro spots combined then yes - there would be a reduction in Euro slots for teams. But in reality, as every team north and south would still have a total of 4 slots to play for, all that would've changed would be the level of compeition for those slts. Which would be a good thing in itself....

[Schumi]

Not this again. :rolleyes: Clubs would on average be in Europe less often in an AIL with four places than under the present system, therefore European places are not a red herring.

[BohsPartisan]

Pats are a by a mile but you'll always get the partizan leanings from the less objective posters rendering the argument futile.



How are you the biggest club by a mile. Believing McCadden's hype now are we?

[dcfcsteve]

Not this again. :rolleyes: Clubs would on average be in Europe less often in an AIL with four places than under the present system, therefore European places are not a red herring.

Clubs would only be in Europe less often if they won less trophies or finished less higher in the league. Nobody would be taking places off of them - they'd be their's to win or lose. Obviously you would go from 2 league winners to only one, but for individual teams like Derry, Cork and Linfield, for example, I doubt it would impact their Euro appearances all that much beyong the short term.

For example - do you honestly think, on Setanta results, that Linfield wouldn't be top 4 in the EL on a frequent basis, and wouldn't be decent contenders for an AIL Cup ? How would they therefore have a substantially lower average attendance rate in Europe ? :confused:

Also - Derry, Cork, Longford and Bray have reduced other EL club's average frequency of appearance in Europe. Should we not therefore have expanded the league in 1984-85 ?

Hence it's just an excuse. The IL clubs don't take Europe serious anyway - which highlights how fishy this objection is. Make no mistake - its political objections dressed up in a football strip...

[Jerry The Saint]

Pats are a by a mile but you'll always get the partizan leanings from the less objective posters rendering the argument futile.



How are you the biggest club by a mile. Believing McCadden's hype now are we?

Nicely predicted, wws.

[Dodge]

wws - psychic, scholar and footballing genius

[AnnaghRed]

The IL clubs don't take Europe serious anyway...

While Irish League clubs don't seriously expect to do well in Europe, they still take qualification seriously.

Ronnie McFall was interviewed after this weekends 4-2 victory at Donegal Celtic and while he discounted Portadowns title hopes, he claimed that a UEFA cup place was still up for grabs.

No mention of the Setanta, which leads me to believe he, like many fans, views it as a purely financially driven distraction, at the business end of the season.

Cork City are at Shamrock Park about now, less than a mile from where I sit at a PC screen.....and yet i'll be there for the visit of lowly Larne on friday night.


which highlights how fishy this objection is. Make no mistake - its political objections dressed up in a football strip...

You'll be saying the objection is sectarian before much longer :rolleyes:

Next season there will be 8 Irish clubs competing in various european competitions. In an AIL [which i probably would support, if structured correctly] there'd only be 4.

Its a perfectly legitimate objection from where i'm sitting.

[dcfcsteve]

After the shambolic showing of the Irish League clubs, there is zero point in having an all-island league with anyone other than Linfield.

The rest would be welcome in our first division though I guess.....

[dcfcsteve]

fNext season there will be 8 Irish clubs competing in various european competitions. In an AIL [which i probably would support, if structured correctly] there'd only be 4.

Its a perfectly legitimate objection from where i'm sitting.

8 in Europe - but not all competing with each other to get into Europe, and not all entitled to one of those 8 slots.

Hence why it is no more a legitimate objection than expanding the size of the IL first division was - which also created a situation where more teams were fighting for the same number of IL European slots, hence making qualification for them tougher.

Where was Jeffreys/Linfield and their European rant when the IL Premier division was expanded to 16 teams......? :rolleyes:

[Poor Student]

Where was Jeffreys/Linfield and their European rant when the IL Premier division was expanded to 16 teams......? :rolleyes:

I think that's exactly the point being made. It's a qualitative as well as a quantitative issue, even more so. Linfield would find it more difficult to qualify for Europe (particularly the CL) when competing with Derry, Cork, Pat's, Bohs, Drogs etc. European qualification is practically sewn up for Linfield before the season begins. In an AIL league this wouldn't be the case. Even if it were then two of the above eL sides mentioned definitely wouldn't qualify for Europe.

[dcfcsteve]

I think that's exactly the point being made. It's a qualitative as well as a quantitative issue, even more so. Linfield would find it more difficult to qualify for Europe (particularly the CL) when competing with Derry, Cork, Pat's, Bohs, Drogs etc. European qualification is practically sewn up for Linfield before the season begins. In an AIL league this wouldn't be the case. Even if it were then two of the above eL sides mentioned definitely wouldn't qualify for Europe.

So it's a lack of ambition / lack of confidence then that's at the heart of it all ? Would make sense to want to be by far the best team in that glorified pub league in that case I guess. Shameful lack of ambition or confidence in one's own abilities though. I still think Linfield would be regular Euro contenders in an AIL - and would have more money and more chance of actually doing something in Europe to-boot.

Still doesn't explain why they care so much about Europe in the media, and then play do pony when they get there...

[Poor Student]

I can't speak for Linfield but that's the general point posters are making. To compare the expansion of the IL's expansion to 16 teams which amounts to nothing more than extra cannon fodder for the top clubs to the other situation is ludicrous. Let's leave insulting terms like "pub league" to barstoolers and other forums please.

[David]

I can't speak for Linfield but that's the general point posters are making. To compare the expansion of the IL's expansion to 16 teams which amounts to nothing more than extra cannon fodder for the top clubs to the other situation is ludicrous. Let's leave insulting terms like "pub league" to barstoolers and other forums please.

Thank you, well said.

[Dodge]

Shameful lack of ambition or confidence in one's own abilities though

When are Derry entering the English Premier League steve?

[Red&White]

Cork City are at Shamrock Park about now, less than a mile from where I sit at a PC screen.....and yet i'll be there for the visit of lowly Larne on friday night.




Probably just as well you didn't go, eh?

[dcfcsteve]

When are Derry entering the English Premier League steve?

Pathetic post Dodge.

If we were of English Premier standard (like the Old Firm) in a much weaker league (like the SPL) then your question might have had a degree of credibility. Instead - it just looks really stupid....:o

Linfield have clearly out-grown their own league, and would fit-in well standard-wise in an all-island league. And if they did help establish an AIL - rather than deserting the rest of the IL a la the Old Firm, the reality is that there are other IL clubs who are bigger supporters of the all-island league idea than Linfield ! They're actually the most vocal against it.

[dcfcsteve]

I can't speak for Linfield but that's the general point posters are making. To compare the expansion of the IL's expansion to 16 teams which amounts to nothing more than extra cannon fodder for the top clubs to the other situation is ludicrous. Let's leave insulting terms like "pub league" to barstoolers and other forums please.

Hang on - it's not Linfield's fault that extra cluibs added when their league was expanded can't compete on a level playing field !!! But they have to deal with the reality that falls out of that.

The exact same thing didn't happen when the EL expanded. Longford, Cork, Derry, Bray - were they all supposed to be just cannon fodder as well......? The fact that they weren't just goes to show how bankrupt league football in the north is. It's such a small place that no matter what they did with the teams I can't see the current status quo changing. Their only hope in challenging it would be to have a big team from the 2nd city in the province - one capable of attracting the crowds, money and sponsorship etc to mount a decent challenge. But the IFA blew that chance 22 years ago..

I suspect strongly that if City turned round tomorrow and asked to re-join the IL, then the likes of Linfield would welcome us with open arms. Would such a move impact their European qualification chances ? Unbdoubtedly yes, on a going basis. But they'd still back it. Which betrays the underlying fact that their opposition isn't about protecting European qualification at all ! It's primarily about politics - having a league in and for Northern Ireland.

Which is a viewpoint they're entitled to - just don't try to dress it up in footballing terms like Euro qualification !!

[AnnaghRed]

After the shambolic showing of the Irish League clubs, there is zero point in having an all-island league with anyone other than Linfield


Certainly little point in continuing with the Setanta being played at this time in our season.

I personally don't think McFall is 100% committed to the competition.

Cork have effectively handed us an 11-0 aggregate thrashing, and the only other time I can remember that sort of annihilation was v's FC Porto.



Where was Jeffreys/Linfield and their European rant when the IL Premier division was expanded to 16 teams......? :rolleyes:

The idea behind expanding the IL to 16 teams was to lessen the relegation dogfight at the bottom, it had absolutely no impact of the fight for european places which is normally between about 6 clubs.

Of those 6 clubs only one would have a realistic chance of qualifying for europe in an AIL.

It is a legitimate objection.


Probably just as well you didn't go, eh?

Aint that the truth?

I daresay you boys feel a lot sicker though?

[BohsPartisan]

Nicely predicted, wws.

Predicting that someone would call him on a (unobjective, Partisan) false statement on this message board?
Nul Point.
Spelling the word Partisan like a slav?
Nul point.

[Dodge]

Pathetic post Dodge.

If we were of English Premier standard (like the Old Firm) in a much weaker league (like the SPL) then your question might have had a degree of credibility. Instead - it just looks really stupid....:o

Linfield have clearly out-grown their own league, and would fit-in well standard-wise in an all-island league. And if they did help establish an AIL - rather than deserting the rest of the IL a la the Old Firm, the reality is that there are other IL clubs who are bigger supporters of the all-island league idea than Linfield ! They're actually the most vocal against it.

You really are a humourless sod, aren't you steve?

[Steve Bruce]

Linfield play in our home countries league. Why would we leave it?

Sure the standard is very low at the moment, but it wasn't that long ago the LOI was a lesser standard than IL.

Who knows what will happen in 10 years time. We could have some money pumped into our sport, a lot of young promising players comming through and a mini boom period for crowds.

There are clubs in Northern Ireland who are sleeping giants.

Portadown
Ballymena
Coleraine
Cliftonville
Glenavon

They could all command a good support on there day and in the past they did command a good support regulary.

But at the moment there is great apathy in Northern Ireland but hopefully in the future we could show a more positive light and attract more families etc to our local game.

The only way I would support an AIL is if the Northern Ireland team is protected. If we have to have an All Island national team, then I'm 150% against it.(you can view it as sectarian if you like, but it's not, I'm a Northern Ireland man, not an Ireland man)


PS: The IL hasn't done very well in this tournement(Linfield excluded) but I can assure you that Portadown & Glentoran would both be mid table teams in the LOI. As would Cliftonville and one or two others.

They wouldn't challange for the league, I would accept that 100% but they would be quite safe in the LOI.

Linfield has been very consistant against LOI teams and indeed have beaten more LOI teams than LOI teams have beaten us. I wouldn't be as cocky to say we would win your league, but we certainly are capable of doing so and we would be there or there abouts every year.

[dcfcsteve]

You really are a humourless sod, aren't you steve?

Only when you're around Dodge. Only when you're around..... :D

The Good Lord created smilies to help people get around the fact that it is difficult to tell from text alone what tone someone is writing something in.

With your curmudgeonous track record, you'd be well advised to employ them...... :D ;)

[finnpark]

Its better for the Eircom league that they dont join. They have only 1 decent team who probably be mid table. The rest would drop the Eircom League down so I don't see the point.

[Lux Interior]

Its better for the Eircom league that they dont join. They have only 1 decent team who probably be mid table. The rest would drop the Eircom League down so I don't see the point.

Our Seconds might do okay, though:p

[Steve Bruce]

Its better for the Eircom league that they dont join. They have only 1 decent team who probably be mid table. The rest would drop the Eircom League down so I don't see the point.

You obviously haven't been watching the Setanta cup that closely have you?

Linfield has beat both of your favourites to win the league and drew the other games.

We have also qualified through the group stages every season.

And we have also topped the group every season and although this year hasnt been finished yet, we are on top of it now.

We would definatly be title challangers of your pretentious league. We know our standard, you lot on the other hand think your better than you are.

Just think how easy this tournement would be if Linfield went full-time

[Soper]

Easy to say when Linfield are in season, and haven't got a new manager trying to get used to his team like Elfy Fenlon

[David]

Easy to say when Linfield are in season, and haven't got a new manager trying to get used to his team like Elfy Fenlon

Yet Eircom League supporters use their superior record in Europe in recent years to show that the Eircom League is superior despite this taking place a full month before our season starts.

[MariborKev]

Yet Eircom League supporters use their superior record in Europe in recent years to show that the Eircom League is superior despite this taking place a full month before our season starts.

Or the fact that if we compare overall records in the Setanta Sports Cup that the LOI is miles ahead.......

[David]

Or the fact that if we compare overall records in the Setanta Sports Cup that the LOI is miles ahead.......

I concern myself only with Linfield and we have shown yet again that we are a match for anything in the EL. Bit rich a Derry fan bragging about Setanta Cup records. :)

[Graemerz]

Or the fact that if we compare overall records in the Setanta Sports Cup that the LOI is miles ahead.......

Linfield won it in 2005, Drogheda won it 2006.

That makes it 1-1.

[DmanDmythDledge]

Linfield won it in 2005, Drogheda won it 2006.

That makes it 1-1.
No. Linfield are the only team from NI that can match any of the LOI teams that have entered.

[dcfcsteve]

I concern myself only with Linfield and we have shown yet again that we are a match for anything in the EL. Bit rich a Derry fan bragging about Setanta Cup records. :)

Feeble David. We both know that neither Linfield nor Derry are representative of our respective leagues.

The Setanta record is very clear. IL clubs have been woeful, with only one exception. EL clubs have more than twice as many victories than IL clubs whenn it coems to facing each other. Therefore - the EL has performed much better than the IL.

The facTs are indesputable here - not matter what feeble spin you try to put on them.

[David]

Feeble David. We both know that neither Linfield nor Derry are representative of our respective leagues.

The Setanta record is very clear. IL clubs have been woeful, with only one exception. EL clubs have more than twice as many victories than IL clubs whenn it coems to facing each other. Therefore - the EL has performed much better than the IL.

The facTs are indesputable here - not matter what feeble spin you try to put on them.

The only fact that matters though is who wins the competition and as far as that is concerned it is one win each.

[Graemerz]

The only fact that matters though is who wins the competition and as far as that is concerned it is one win each.

Very true. ;)