Dawkin's God Delusion

[Lionel Ritchie]

So, I take it you wouldn't get them baptised:confused: If you decided not to get them baptised and they came home one day, they said they wanted to get baptised (considering they have come to the age to be able to reason) what would your reaction be?
.

I didn't have my kid baptised. It's been hard on his grandprents who are fairly devout. That and that alone I feel bad about.

If he ever comes to me, having reached reasonable maturity (NOT 6 or 7 years old), and says "Dad I want to be a Catholic (or Methodist/Unitarian/Pre-Tribulation Rapturist/Muslim/Hindu/Eskimo/Nunchaku)" then I will ask of him in sombre Homer-like tone "do I have to do anything?".

If he answers this riddle correctly he can do whatever he likes.

[dahamsta]

Guys, you're talking about Santa Claus. Seriously, think about it for a second.

[jebus]

Guys, you're talking about Santa Claus. Seriously, think about it for a second.

Not really talking about Santa, more about what Partisan would do in given situations

[jebus]

I didn't have my kid baptised. It's been hard on his grandprents who are fairly devout. That and that alone I feel bad about.

If he ever comes to me, having reached reasonable maturity (NOT 6 or 7 years old), and says "Dad I want to be a Catholic (or Methodist/Unitarian/Pre-Tribulation Rapturist/Muslim/Hindu/Eskimo/Nunchaku)" then I will ask of him in sombre Homer-like tone "do I have to do anything?".

If he answers this riddle correctly he can do whatever he likes.

So do you think its okay for Catholic parents to tell their 7 year old son that he has to be a Catholic if he says he doesn't want to be?

[dahamsta]

Not really talking about Santa, more about what Partisan would do in given situationsI understand what you're trying to do, but you're using santa claus to do it. What next, the tooth fairy? Pinnochio?

[BohsPartisan]

But will you have given them enough information, or taught them that other opinions exist, to the point where they will be able to decide for themselves, or simply choose the option you've given them?

I would like to send them to an educate together school. They'd learn about world religions there.


Will you teach them open mindedly and allow them to come to their own conclusions, or teach them what you want them to believe

I don't know, a factual description of the history of Christianity might upset a young child, what with all the rape and pillage.

[jebus]

I don't know, a factual description of the history of Christianity might upset a young child, what with all the rape and pillage.

So if they wanted to know about world history you wouldn't tell them either than I presume? Or more logically would you give them a children's version of events, in much the same I would if my child came to me and asked me about Christianity?

[BohsPartisan]

I was joking. Maybe should have added a smiley.

[finlma]

So if they wanted to know about world history you wouldn't tell them either than I presume?

History is based on fact. The Old Testement is a book which tells people who want to be Christian that they should go out and kill people who are not. The book also tells people to rape, stone gays and adulterers to death and the list of good christian morals goes on.....

[dahamsta]

You could have just said "the old testament is fiction, unless you're a complete moron".

[finlma]

You could have just said "the old testament is fiction, unless you're a complete moron".

Very true but there a huge amount of people out there that take their morals from the Old Testement i.e. The 10 Commandments. Christians think that they can pick and chose which morals they can take from the Bible.

Seems like better logic to ignore the thing entirely and just live life as a good person.

[John83]

You could have just said "the old testament is fiction, unless you're a complete moron".
Red Dwarf had a nice throwaway on this once...

Archeologists near mount Sinai have discovered what is believed to be a missing page from the Bible. The page is currently being carbon dated in Bonn. If genuine it belongs at the beginning of the Bible and is believed to read "To my darling Candy. All characters portrayed within this book are fictitious and any resemblance to persons living or dead is purely coincidental." The page has been universally condemned by church leaders.

[jebus]

Very true but there a huge amount of people out there that take their morals from the Old Testement i.e. The 10 Commandments. Christians think that they can pick and chose which morals they can take from the Bible.

Seems like better logic to ignore the thing entirely and just live life as a good person.

Thanks for the lesson on Morality for Dummies, anyway I think you'll find, if you stop pidgeonholing all Christians for a second, that most Christians, or at least those I know, don't take their morals from the Old Testament, rather they look to the tales (yes Christians don't believe everything they are told in the Bible to be fact) of the New Testament, and try to find the underlying meaning in them as a guideline. Well they use that and the morals they pick up from living their lives, but I suppose you wouldn't want that to shatter your stereotypes would you?

[dahamsta]

Inability to differentiate between the bible and reality is growth industry. Exponential growth. I'd reckon inline with the growth of reality tv, although they're generally two completely different types of stupid.

[jebus]

Inability to differentiate between the bible and reality is growth industry. Exponential growth. I'd reckon inline with the growth of reality tv, although they're generally two completely different types of stupid.


But outside of the Bible belt who takes the Bible as gospel (pardon the pun), as out and out truth? I doubt most Christians do to be honest, but there is always an underlying message in each story, whether its good or bad

[Poor Student]

History is based on fact. The Old Testement is a book which tells people who want to be Christian that they should go out and kill people who are not. The book also tells people to rape, stone gays and adulterers to death and the list of good christian morals goes on.....

The Old Testament mentions Christians? I'm nowhere close to familiar with the complete writings of the Bible but I do know that Christ discouraged the stoning of an adulterer. You've probably heard the quote "Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone". To the best of my knowledge the New Testament encourageds a new departure from some of the harsher aspects of the Old Testament.

As someone who would be on the religious side of the debate, Dahamsta is right, the Santa Claus analogy is weak.:o

[dahamsta]

The phrase "clutching at straws" would be more accurate.

[finlma]

(yes Christians don't believe everything they are told in the Bible to be fact)

50% of Americans believe that the world was created only 10,000 years ago and have a strong believe in what is written in the old testement. And 65% of them believe that there is an actual devil.

I'm yet to hear a single good argument for the existence of a supernatural god and I am prepared to listen if you have one. To say you don't need one and that faith is enough is pathetic. Why only have faith in something that your elders have told you to be true?

[Raheny Red]

As someone who would be on the religious side of the debate, Dahamsta is right, the Santa Claus analogy is weak.

The reason why I brought it up is because Dawkins is an atheist and believes that one should have scientific evidence to back up his or her beliefs. Despite this he still told his daughter about the chap in the red suit, but yet he wouldn't tell her about God as he has no evidence of him. Seems a bit hypocritical to me. He went on to say that if he did have another child (with his 66 birthday approaching he'd be a bit of a hero if this did happen :cool: :p ) he wouldn't teach them about Santa Claus. To me, this suggests that he realises that he shouldn't have taught his daughter about something which didn't have evidence to back it up. I'm not trying to compare God to Santa by the way :o

[Poor Student]

50% of Americans believe that the world was created only 10,000 years ago and have a strong believe in what is written in the old testement. And 65% of them believe that there is an actual devil.



Look, just because a portion of one country allegedly believes one thing written in the Old Testament (love the lack of a source btw), it does not mean that the New Testament does not mark a departure from things stated in the Old Testament.

You can't say "50% of Americans believe the world was created within 10,000 years ago, the Old Testament says to stone gays and adulterers, therefore Christians want to stone gays and adulterers." Total specious reasoning.

[finlma]

(love the lack of a source btw),

Can't quote the book directly but it's in Dawkin's book from a study undertaken in 2002. Read the book - you might be enlightened.

There are so many holes in any religious argument. Religous folk are coming on here trying to find holes in what atheists say but without giving a single good argument as to why god exists. I'd love to know what you Christians think will happen to us atheists and all the Non-Christians when we die. There are so many imcompatible religions so what happens to the non-believers? I'm only saying Christians as I presume thats what religous people on here are.

[GavinZac]

Via (http://www.badscience.net/?p=367).

rd3laVISXLA

holy crap.

wow, i didnt even mean that.

anyway, that is the single most disgusting thing ive ever seen. that one point in the "lesson" - god said it, i believe it, therefore its true - thats just.... ugh.

[jebus]

I'd love to know what you Christians think will happen to us atheists and all the Non-Christians when we die. There are so many imcompatible religions so what happens to the non-believers? I'm only saying Christians as I presume thats what religous people on here are.


I think you'll be just fine, as I've said, you pidgeonholing all Christians into what you think a Christian is does not make it so. Keep up the stereotypes, its as good a way of discussing things as any I suppose

[BohsPartisan]

I think you'll be just fine, as I've said, you pidgeonholing all Christians into what you think a Christian is does not make it so. Keep up the stereotypes, its as good a way of discussing things as any I suppose

If you don't follow the Stereotype you're not a christian. Christianity involves a set of criteria that must be followed for one to describe themselves as a christian. Those biblebelt fundamentalists and their ilk are christians. The rest of you are living a lie.

[jebus]

If you don't follow the Stereotype you're not a christian. Christianity involves a set of criteria that must be followed for one to describe themselves as a christian. Those biblebelt fundamentalists and their ilk are christians. The rest of you are living a lie.

Yeah again, I'd rather not take my lessons in how to be a Christian off an atheist, no offence or anything ;)

[BohsPartisan]

Ex-Christian Atheist.
Some key points of christian doctrine:
Sex outside Marriage is a sin.
Sex is for procreation not pleasure
Abortion is murder.
Sodomy is one of the worst sins EVER! Worse than rape. In fact rape isn't too bad because;
Women are inferior to men.
Jesus Christ is the son of God, he died on the cross and rose from the dead after three days visited his mates and then ascended in to heaven.

So if you are not a misogynistic homophobic anti-choicer who doesn't believe in Sex outside Marriage or for pleasure then you're not a christian. Religion can't be bought as pick and mix. Its a package.

[Lim till i die]

So if you are not a misogynistic homophobic anti-choicer

That's jebus to a tee though :p


Religion can't be bought as pick and mix. Its a package.

Course it can

Look at all the different sects within Christianity

[BohsPartisan]

That's jebus to a tee though :p


Look at all the different sects within Christianity

Yeah but they would agree on those basic points. The disagreements are usually on interpretations of vagueries.

[Lim till i die]

Yeah but they would agree on those basic points. The disagreements are usually on interpretations of vagueries.


In fact rape isn't too bad because;

Doubt you'll find too many who'll come out and say that now. Infact stuff like that cheapens your argument a bit tbh

It's the equivalent of me saying to you that all Communists believe in gulags and such ;)

[dahamsta]

Perhaps someone should edit those parts out of the bible then, and get everyone to stop preaching them. And perhaps someone should tell the Pope, so he can start recruiting female priests instead of using them as lackies and scrubbers.

[BohsPartisan]

It's the equivalent of me saying to you that all Communists believe in gulags and such ;)

Not really. More so it strengthens my arguement that the Stalinists were not Communists because there are a set of criteria that one must satisfy to make you a communist which the Stalinists did not satisfy. :cool:

[Lim till i die]

Someone should edit those parts out of the bible then? And get everyone to stop preaching them? And perhaps someone should tell the Pope, so he can start recruiting female priests instead of using them as lackies?

Think your mixing up Roman Catholicism and Christianity there with the last point ;)

The Bible is a book of its time. You don't have to take it literally in this day and age to be a good Christian. That's called fundamentalism


Not really. More so it strengthens my arguement that the Stalinists were not Communists because there are a set of criteria that one must satisfy to make you a communist which the Stalinists did not satisfy. :cool:

But maybe the woman raping gay bashers above weren't Christians then??

Who are you to set their criteria??

Certainly can't remember Jesus Christ (the clues in the name) saying that any of the above were particularly groovy :confused:

[BohsPartisan]

You don't have to take it literally in this day and age to be a good Christian. That's called fundamentalism

Religious doctrine is fundamental to following a religion. If you take out the doctrine you have nothing left - no religion, just a package.
Anyway you can't spell fundementalism without fun!

PS. Would the christian community here please define they're faith/what they believe in. Every time our side has a shot at goal you move the goalposts.


But maybe the woman raping gay bashers above weren't Christians then??

Who are you to set their criteria??



The Bible sets the criteria. Its not called the Bible for nothing.

[Lim till i die]

Religious doctrine is fundamental to following a religion. If you take out the doctrine you have nothing left - no religion, just a package.
Anyway you can't spell fundementalism without fun!

The Bible sets the criteria. Its not called the Bible for nothing.

You can be a Christian by interpreting the bible and the teachings of Jesus Christ (Once again, clues in the name) in you own way

Are you telling me you take all your socialist doctrine literally??


PS. Would the christian community here please define they're faith/what they believe in. Every time our side has a shot at goal you move the goalposts.

Nowhere near being a Christian I'm afraid man. You'll have to wait for someone else :)

[BohsPartisan]

You can be a Christian by interpreting the bible and the teachings of Jesus Christ (Once again, clues in the name) in you own way

Are you telling me you take all your socialist doctrine literally??



In any religion or philosophy there are key articles of faith/doctrine/theory that you more or less must follow. Outside of that there is leeway for interpretation. All Marxists worth the name believe that the key to socialism is the democratic control of the means of production by the working class. Outside of that there is leeway for differences.
The problem is a lot of people say they are christian because they were told they were by their parents but when you challenge them on any aspects of christian doctrine they say oh well I don't believe that exactly. You take them up on something else and its, oh I don't believe that either. It is my contention that these people are not christians. They haven't interpreted the bible either, most of them have never read the thing. What they believe in is some vague idea of a being who is omnipotent and life after death in some form or other. It takes a lot more than that to be a christian.

[Lim till i die]

In any religion or philosophy there are key articles of faith/doctrine/theory that you more or less must follow. Outside of that there is leeway for interpretation. All Marxists worth the name believe that the key to socialism is the democratic control of the means of production by the working class. Outside of that there is leeway for differences.


Given the amount of Marxist theory around (I'll grant you're the expert) you've set a far smaller set of criteria for being a Marxist there than you did for being a Christian above.


The problem is a lot of people say they are christian because they were told they were by their parents but when you challenge them on any aspects of christian doctrine they say oh well I don't believe that exactly. You take them up on something else and its, oh I don't believe that either. It is my contention that these people are not christians. They haven't interpreted the bible either, most of them have never read the thing.

Do I detect the pungent odour of liberal-leftie arrogance. You know, the type that makes you agree with most of what Michael Moore says but still want to punch him in the face

Without being able to speak for everyone on this thread I know for a fact jebus has read the bible quite a lot


What they believe in is some vague idea of a being who is omnipotent and life after death in some form or other.

Amongst lots of other things in most cases


It takes a lot more than that to be a christian

As much as I like you BP I don't think you're in a position to be setting the rules to join the Christian club :)

[BohsPartisan]

Given the amount of Marxist theory around (I'll grant you're the expert) you've set a far smaller set of criteria for being a Marxist there than you did for being a Christian above.

Not really if you take Capital, The Manifesto, The Civil War in France and Engels's Anti-Duhring as the key works and the rest as interpretation. Oviously I would add some of Lenin and Trotsky's work, Rosa Luxemburg and some Ted Grant but to call yourself a Marxist you don't need to agree with these, only the Marx/Engels ones.




Do I detect the pungent odour of liberal-leftie arrogance.
Yes. :p
Seriously, just based on discussions I have with people. you know at coffee break between the Cheltenham tips.


Without being able to speak for everyone on this thread I know for a fact jebus has read the bible quite a lot
So have I. And I've read a lot of the non-canonical gospels.
Thats why I'd like to know what criteria he sets for being a Christian/what he believes.





As much as I like you BP I don't think you're in a position to be setting the rules to join the Christian club

But I'm not. I'm just going by what the governing bodies of the Christian churches say the rules are, and what is in the Bible.

[Lim till i die]

So have I. And I've read a lot of the non-canonical gospels.

But I'm not. I'm just going by what the governing bodies of the Christian churches say the rules are, and what is in the Bible.


Some key points of christian doctrine:
Sex outside Marriage is a sin.
Sex is for procreation not pleasure
Abortion is murder.
Sodomy is one of the worst sins EVER! Worse than rape. In fact rape isn't too bad because;
Women are inferior to men.
Jesus Christ is the son of God, he died on the cross and rose from the dead after three days visited his mates and then ascended in to heaven.

Show me where Jesus Christ (once again clues in the name) said all these things.

Without me being an expert I reckon you'll have a job


Thats why I'd like to know what criteria he sets for being a Christian/what he believes.

I'm sure the man himself will help you with that at some stage this evening :)

[BohsPartisan]

Show me where Jesus Christ (once again clues in the name) said all these things.

Without me being an expert I reckon you'll have a job


Jesus (if he really existed) was a Jew, he followed the Jewish teachings i.e. the old testament. All of that is in there.

[Lim till i die]

Jesus (if he really existed) was a Jew, he followed the Jewish teachings i.e. the old testament. All of that is in there.

So you're not certain if he existed but you are certain he followed Jewish teaching............

[BohsPartisan]

So you're not certain if he existed but you are certain he followed Jewish teaching............

The fictional character or historical figure that christians follow was himself a follower of the Abrahamic tradition.

PS. 1st Corinthians 6:9-10, homosexuals will not be allowed into heaven.

[Lim till i die]

The fictional character or historical figure that christians follow was himself a follower of the Abrahamic tradition.


Why do the whole "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" thing so if he was such an ardent follower of the old testament??


PS. 1st Corinthians 6:9-10, homosexuals will not be allowed into heaven

Did jesus say that? I'm actually a bit surprised

[BohsPartisan]

Why do the whole "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" thing so if he was such an ardent follower of the old testament??
He was without sin wasn't he? :D




Did jesus say that? I'm actually a bit surprised

Paul I think.

[Poor Student]

BP, the Jewish religion at the time of Christ was divided among different factions with differing ideas on the Law and so forth. Some people theorise that Jesus was of the Essene tradition which was quite different from mainstream Jewish tradition. You can't just lump him into one Jewish pile. There were plenty of people lurking around Palestine at that time who had no interest in following most or all of Jewish tradition rather like what you're saying about the Christianity of today.

Being the educated and knowledgeable poster I know you to be, I think you know that many Christians believe that a New Covenant was established with God following Christ which represents a new departure from the previous Covenant. You may (in fact I know you do:p ) think that's a pile of rubbish but your insistence on Old Testament teachings and traditions is rather like the most fundamentalist Christianity. You know there's theological arguments to support that. It's an unusual stance you're taking as an atheist, with the strength of a fundementalist you're insisting that only a certain strand of Christianity counts as Christian to you, yet you don't believe anyway.

[Lim till i die]

Ya, What he Said :p :p :p

[BohsPartisan]

Fair comment but alot of that is based on contensious historical "evidence" (hearsay).
Somthing on the Essenes - it seems two Foot.ie posters are experts on this:


According to Josephus, they had customs and observances such as collective ownership (War 2.122; Ant. 18.20), elected a leader to attend to the interests of them all whose orders they obeyed (War 2.123, 134), were forbidden from swearing oaths (War 2.135) and sacrificing animals (Philo, §75)

[dahamsta]

Think your mixing up Roman Catholicism and Christianity there with the last pointRoman Catholicism isn't the predominant Christian faith in Ireland?


The Bible is a book of its time. You don't have to take it literally in this day and age to be a good Christian. That's called fundamentalismI'd imagine you're in the minority on that point. (On which you should be congratulated. But it does beg the question: if you're intelligent to know what's "good" and "bad", why would you need to refer to a silly work of fiction like the bible?)

adam

[jebus]

Jesus there's a lot to get through here, don't know where to start. Anyway I'll start by saying that Christianity constantly evolves throughout the ages, whilst some may believe that what was adhered to back in through the centuries is relevant today, the majority of Christians I've found don't. Partisan you may have had different experiences of Christians than I have, but thats what I've found.

Anyway considering Christ was scapegoated for supposedly trying to turn people away from the Old Teachings I think its fair to say that he didn't live his life as accordance with the teachings of the Old Testament (for the record I think the Old Testament is a pile of garbage that was designed to scare people into fearing, not loving, God, so I'd rather nor have to answer for whats in there).

Anyway back to you asking what I believe a Christian to be, well I'll first say that I don't think there is a set criteria in modern Christians. Some still believe that abortion is murder, I don't. Some still believe homosexuality is a sin, I don't. I've honestly never met one who thought women were inferior, and to be honest I think the New Testament went along way to correcting the notion of women as betrayors and below man that the Old Testament set out (as I say I think that book is garbage). Hell I don't even believe that there is one God hanging over us all, so I don't believe in a single Creator, and there are a few Christians I know who believe similiar (you atheists should try asking us more what we think/believe by the way, instead of following Dawkins method of 'I can insult you better, that means I'm smarter'). More so I believe in a life force moving through everything and constantly in flux with all around it. I think this is where life came from, comes from, and will continue to come from. Can I explain it better, nope, and I don't think humans are meant to, to be honest

So you're probably wondering why I even call myself a Christian, well the thing is is that I've read the New Testament straight through twice, and constantly go back and open it up and read a page or two here or there, and what I've taken from it is a message of honesty and love. I think what you say the Bible teaches us is the exact opposite of what is in the New Testament. I think Jesus constantly tells us we are all equal and that we should all treat each other as so, 'do onto others as you would have others do onto you' for example, (may not be directly quoted correctly, never been good at remembering passages of any book) and I think the stories of the New Testament all look to people finding peace amongst themselves and each other, both messages are ones I think are very valid today. So whilst I don't believe that Jesus was the Son of God, I do have respect for him, and so react when people take cheap shots (Jesus is a **** t-shirts), try to blacken his name in the interest of selling a few books (Dawkins), or just attack him for no reason other to make themselves feel superior (quite a few people).

As for the Catholic Church, well I think they have twisted the word of Jesus for their own good, and so I consider them more a scourge of Christianity than anything else

[dahamsta]

As for the Catholic Church, well I think they have twisted the word of Jesus for their own good, and so I consider them more a scourge of Christianity than anything elseAmen brother. Well, apart from the "word of jesus" bit.

[BohsPartisan]

Anyway considering Christ was scapegoated for supposedly trying to turn people away from the Old Teachings
Scapegoated for it but denied it strenuously. He refers to the ten commandments in his teachings.

. Hell I don't even believe that there is one God hanging over us all, so I don't believe in a single Creator, and there are a few Christians I know who believe similiar ... More so I believe in a life force moving through everything and constantly in flux with all around it. I think this is where life came from, comes from, and will continue to come from.
See this is what I mean. What you believe is closer to Budhism or dare I say it, Jedi-ism than Christianity. For what its worth take a few steps in a materialist direction and you have my views on the universe.

So whilst I don't believe that Jesus was the Son of God, I do have respect for him ...
Again thats pretty much central to being a Christian.