Election 2007

[Macy]

i would agree pete that mcdowell tells it straight up which is refreshing
But he doesn't. Just because he shouts loud and insults people doesn't mean he speaks truthfully.

[pete]

But he doesn't. Just because he shouts loud and insults people doesn't mean he speaks truthfully.

Take for instance the garda reservists. I don't know if I agree with or not & is not a big issue one way or another. When the garda "union" moaned he just pushed ahead anyway. The opposite of Bertie who seems to think everyone has to agree before can start anything except obviously if want to build a Bertie Bowl :p

[Macy]

Take for instance the garda reservists.
Which covered the fact he hadn't met his targets on real cops. When the PD's start getting all tough, look behind the headline grabbing story to get the real facts. Take their latest hardline stance - they seem to be ignoring the fact there are no beds for these 1500 consultants to actually utilise. Much better for them to paint the consultants as the greedy bad guy rather than face the facts that....

elective surgery's are practically non existant because their are no beds
there are no beds for elective surgery because all the beds are taken up with "solving" the A&E Crisis
solving to the PD's obviously means just shifting the problem to another area of the health service
This pushes more people into the national treatment purchase fund
More people in the treatment fund gives them more opportunity to tout what a great success that it is at solving the Health Services problems

[pete]

TBH I almost never listen to anything on the Health Service as cannot be solves in current manner. Its a bottomless pit of money & I don't think as bad as people make it out to be. Private health insurance does seem to be becoming more irrelevant though... Saying that I would not oppose a public health system for all costed from taxes as long as could get some sort of costing for it...

[Jamjar]

If our system of democracy is proportional representation....then why doesn't Mary Harney get 2 seats in the dáil ?

[BohsPartisan]

If our system of democracy is proportional representation....then why doesn't Mary Harney get 2 seats in the dáil ?

:D

Class

[Student Mullet]

Originally Posted by Student Mullet
That's my poinion too. I voted green last time and probably will again but a lot of their policies are completly loony.
Out of curiosity, which ones?


Sorry for taking so long to answer. I wanted to have time to answer properly and I've a day off today before heading to San Marino.

I read through their energy policy (http://www.greenparty.ie/en/policies/energy/future_generation_html_version) last night and a few things stuck out.

Here's a chunk of the document, I've highlighted the relevant bits.

2. How We Use Energy

The flow chart below shows in graphic form how we use the energy that is provided from these various energy supplies. The most notable feature of such a presentation is that almost 20% of our energy supply is lost through waste heat which is released unused from power stations in the generation of electricity. This is described below as an Electricity Transformation Loss and accounts for a similar amount of energy as that used in the combined agriculture and residential sectors. An advantage of using renewable supplies for electricity generation is that such transmission losses are avoided.
If we ignore this transmission loss then industry accounts for some 19% of our energy use. This percentage has been reduced slightly in recent years due to the closure of energy-intensive plants such as IFI and Irish Steel as we switched to higher value added industries.

There is a law of thermodynamics that dictated how much of a heat source can be converted into useful work (in this case driving an electric generator). It's about 70% for a gas plant and modern plants get pretty close to that. The number is lower for coal and peat plants and I don't know it off the top of my head. There's similar laws for non-heat plants like wind & water. The document calls this a transformation loss and is OK up to this point.

Then 2 things happen. Firstly the transformation loss turns into a transmission loss (which is a completly different thing) and the claim is made that these losses don't occur for renewable sources. I'm hoping the first point is a typo, though it is repeated. But the second point is completly off the wall. The basic claim being made is that burning turf is wasteful because you loose heat up the chimney but burning wood or grass or whatever in the same plant is somehow different and has no hot fumes leaving up the chimney. I have 2 issues with this. Firstly using words like 'loss' or 'waste' is misleading since converting the energy stored chemically in a fuel to electricity uses some of it up and there is no way to avoid this, it is simply the cost of doing business. Secondly, this is true for renewable fuels just as much as it is for fossle fuels.

The same argument is true of the non-heat plants. A wind turbine doesn't extract all the energy from the wind passing through it (very little, in fact), we don't count that cost because wind is free but it exists just the same. The same is true of hydro plants. The only example I have is the pump storage station up in Wicklow which returns about 70% of the electricity put into it.

On the subject of transmission losses, this is the energy lost from the wires across the country heating up as electricity passes through them. This accounts for about 2% of the electricity generated. The green party's proposal to remove it is:


Move to a 'distributed' energy grid

The ESB is currently spending two billion euro of taxpayers’ money building up the electricity grid in a manner which promotes the use of large fossil fuels power plants and hinders the development of renewable energies. We should instead have followed the approach of the British Government which made a strategic decision five years ago to move to a so-called 'distributed energy grid'. This involves a switch from promoting energy flows from a few major centres to the periphery, to a system where power is generated by a large number of small-scale localised centres and used locally.

Which basically amounts to every town and city generating as much energy as it needs (and no more) so that none is transmitted across the country. This flies in the face of common sence. If we do switch to wind, wave and bio fuels, we can be almost certain that the bulk of the power will be generated in the west of the country and in rural areas and then transmitted to the east and urban areas. If wind power is to become more widespread it is dependant on a lot of interconnection across the country and internationally to allow for variations in wind strength, the exact opposite of green party policy. This really strikes me as a case of ideology and wanting to 'empower local communities' getting in the way of proper policy.

Having said all that. It doesn't put me off voting for them because I think that if they do get into power thay'll drop (or be made drop) the parts of their policy which won't work and I think that they have the correct basic motivation in a lot of areas.

Next week: Student Mullet will (if he finds time) lay into the green's 'rail freight' policies.

[pete]

I believe the UK electric grid allows local generators of power to add it back into the grid? I don't think we have that facility here so if you had say a big wind turbine out your back garden you could not add back in the left over energy into the grid?

I think the irish grid has a big problem with peak usage as opposed to overall usage. We will have problems generation enough power at peak times in the near future. We will probably just import from Sellafield anyway...

Interesting that the Sunday Business Post has General Election poll with result of FF/PD 40+3 & FG/Lab 22+12 whereas MRBI opinion poll had FF/PDs at 37+1 & FG/Lab 26+11. 9 point lead down to 1 point. Also has Greens at 8% which would make them king makers. However the MRBI must be misleading as PDs will get more than 1% of seast even in complete collapse.

[BohsPartisan]

What will happen if they are only left with McDowell. Anyone think they'll disolve?

[Student Mullet]

I believe the UK electric grid allows local generators of power to add it back into the grid? I don't think we have that facility here so if you had say a big wind turbine out your back garden you could not add back in the left over energy into the grid?You can do the same here but you don't get paid for the extra.

[holidaysong]

Any party that state in their manifesto that they will bring in civil partnerships for same sex couples (and heterosexual couples) will get my vote. As far as I know only the Green Party have come out (excuse the pun!) and said they are for their introduction. Although FG and Labour have made mumblings on the issue, they don't convince me in their commitment to it.

[Macy]

What will happen if they are only left with McDowell. Anyone think they'll disolve?
Merge with Immigration Control Platform?


Although FG and Labour have made mumblings on the issue, they don't convince me in their commitment to it
Didn't FG release a civil partnership policy a couple of years ago? iirc it was a very liberal policy document, and dates back to before even the UK introduction of civil partnerships. One things for sure, more hope under the Rainbow than under a FF lead Government still tied so tightly in with the Church.

[BohsPartisan]

Any party that state in their manifesto that they will bring in civil partnerships for same sex couples (and heterosexual couples) will get my vote.

The Socialist Party is for equal rights for homosexuals

[pete]

Caught the last 15 minutes of 'Frank Opinion: The Week in Politics' last night. American pollster doing focus group of undecided voters. The had some irish political gurus discussing his findings. Excellent tv.

Richard Bruton polled well.
Brian Cowan did not poll well as Taoiseach.
FG posters not understood.
Labours Brendan Howlin polled poorly.

Overall message that opposition not able to communicate with the voters on why they should vote for change eventhough widespread longing for another option...

[Macy]

Didn't think it was as good a show as the last time - perhaps not long enough show, or not long enough between them. Pretty bias audience imo for supposedly floating voters (including Frank Fitzgibbon spouting all the low tax guff), even allowing for them setting it up between those who voted for the Government and those that didn't. I'm not convinced that Questions and Answers the right setting to judge people - the last time it was at conferences and

PD's seem screwed though - health and justice the two areas people concerned about and see no progress and they all associate the PD's with Harney so it doesn't seem that McDowell is an asset either.

Never mind the quality of the opposition, I'm not really sure of the quality of the electorate after watching both these shows... :eek:

[holidaysong]

The Socialist Party is for equal rights for homosexuals

They don't have anyone running in Louth though.

[Partizan]

They don't have anyone running in Louth though.

Peter Short is running for the WP so he should get the hard Left vote including any from the SP/SWP or others.

[Macy]

Pretty bias audience imo for supposedly floating voters

Was it really a mistake or was it RTE doing their usual of falling into line with the Government when it comes to election time?


FF pair posed as undecided on TV

THERE were red faces in RTE yesterday as the station revealed political party members had taken part in a top profile TV show posing as "undecided" voters.

The much-promoted 'Week in Politics' programme, was hosted by celebrated US pollster Frank Luntz. But last night the station admitted that a Fianna Fail party member and ex-member featured in a group of what were supposed to be undecided voters.

Gerry O'Brien, a Fianna Fail member and co-op manager from Mitchelstown, Co Cork, was seen on the programme attacking a Fine Gael poster.

He also defended Health Minister Mary Harney.

He confirmed last night to the Irish Independent that he is a member of Fianna Fail.

Eoin Dawson, a self-confessed Fianna Fail supporter from Mitchelstown, also was selected for the focus group.

Week in Politics producer Angela Ryan confessed that if she had known the men were Fianna Fail members, they would not have been used.
http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=45&si=1771537&issue_id=15225

[pete]

Was it really a mistake or was it RTE doing their usual of falling into line with the Government when it comes to election time?


I think you giving RTE too much organisational credit.

[holidaysong]

A Civil Unions Bill put forward by the Labour Party has been postponed by for 6 months by the government. They have civil partnerships in "the black north" but not down here in "new liberal Ireland"... What a joke.

[pete]

Interest debate on tax cuts. Looks like every party getting in on the bandwagon of auction politics.

[BohsPartisan]

Only its an auction where the goods are not handed over at the end.

[pete]

Only its an auction where the goods are not handed over at the end.

Bit of the old estate agent 'gazumping'

[jebus]

We were talking about the upcoming election in the pub last night and I'm pretty sure I signed something that says I will denounce my Irish heritage and give up my nationality if Irish people vote Fianna Fail back into power. Looking at it in the cold light of day I think I'm onto something here ;)

[osarusan]

We were talking about the upcoming election in the pub last night and I'm pretty sure I signed something that says I will denounce my Irish heritage and give up my nationality if Irish people vote Fianna Fail back into power. Looking at it in the cold light of day I think I'm onto something here ;)

Was it LTID handing out the forms?

[Macy]

I'm actually coming round to the opinion that it is better that FF/PD's are returned to power and reap what they sow in the forthcoming economic downturn. The Irish electorate are too thick to realise that FF built the boom with an over reliance on property (with building regs that probably wouldn't be fit for a house of cards), and would blame the new Government. Perhaps the Rainbow are better off out of it.

btw Nice to see Paddy the Plasterer beside Bertie as he dropped the hand on the President...

[Lim till i die]

Was it LTID handing out the forms?

Viva La Revolution :p

[Block G Raptor]

In all likelihood we'll have 4 candidates. Joe in Dub West, Clare D in Dub North, Mick Murphy out Tallaght way and Mick Barry in Cork (North Central I think).

Is ruth"wheres the nearest bandwagon?" Copinger not running in Dublin west

[BohsPartisan]

No Ruth is not running in Dublin West. That would be bad election management and would only serve to split the SP vote.
As for your bandwagon remark its pretty childish and I won't dignify it with a response.

[WeAreRovers]

As for your bandwagon remark its pretty childish and I won't dignify it with a response.

Rock Against Racism? The Anti Nazi league? Anti-Bin Charges Campaign? Stop the War? All of them were/are Trot fronts specifically for bandwagon jumping.

Both the Millies and SWP have always used bandwagon jumping as their main recruiting and publicity tricks. I was involved (very briefly) with the Millies 20 years ago and we were told this in no uncertain terms.

KOH

[BohsPartisan]

Rock Against Racism? The Anti Nazi league? Anti-Bin Charges Campaign? Stop the War? All of them were/are Trot fronts specifically for bandwagon jumping.



RAR and ANL were set up by the SWP not us. Stop The War is a UK organisation, I presume you refer to the IAWM? Do you think a socialist organisation shouldn't campaign against the war?

And as for bandwagon jumping, its ridiculous and infantile to suggest thats what we were doing with say, the Anti-Bin Charges, Anti-Water Charges or even the Gama campaign. All were campaigns initiated by us. All were done with the object of winning on the issue (which we did with the water charges and GAMA). In fact after the GAMA thing gained momentum, plenty of others jumped on our bandwagon! When Joe Higgins and Catherine Murphy (Ind) started kicking up a fuss about the Estate Management Fees, the likes of Joan Burton stood on the sidelines to see if the campaign gained any momentum and then when it did, hopped on.
Are you saying that you can't campaign on any issue because if you do you are jumping on a bandwagon? As for your claims of "inside knowledge" from a brief spell involved with us 20 years ago, you come up so wide of the mark that I'm disinclined to believe you. Even if you were so what? I've been a member of the organisation for 10 years so I think my knowledge of how we operate is a bit better than yours. Every time we take on a campaign we fight to win. If there are people involved in the campaign that seem to be politically advanced then yes we try to recruit them. So what? Who cares?

[WeAreRovers]

BP - Trots are Trots, very little difference between the factions. While I disagree with his basic arguement, you should have a read of Nick Cohen's What's Left. He tears into all shades of Trots in it and he's spot on.

Then again you'd probably be "disinclined to believe" him too. Choosing to disbelief contrary views is another feature of your average Trot but the bandwagon effect is a standard Trot tactic - regardless of your protestations. :rolleyes:

Note to self - must stop arguing with irrelevant minority political factions. Now where did I leave RSF's email address. :D

KOH

[BohsPartisan]

I said I was disinclined to believe you because what you say seems pretty ill informed based on my own personal experience.
I would argue that there are massive differences between the "factions", now more so than ever.

Again you don't answer me when I ask, should Socialists not campaign on issues that effect working class people? I say they are not worthy of the name Socialists if they don't. Bandwagon jumping is where someone else does the groundwork on something and you leap on when there is some momentum behind it. Name a time when we did this.

[Block G Raptor]

okay maybe bandwagon jumping is a bit too easy hows about ruth"can you give my bandwagon a jumpstart"Copinger. Lost all respect for her over the Anti-Social behaviour problem in Hartstown all down to statoil opening 24 hours Bull that she started. There's been little scroats running around hartstown long before statoil opened 24 hours. pure and total protest for the sake of protest

[BohsPartisan]

Don't know anything about that particular issue. If you have a problem why not send her an email. Her email address is on the Fingal CoCo site.
I know Ruth well and I can tell you she's no sham.

[pete]

Moderator: I think ye straying off topic but if new one required suggest a Title...

[BohsPartisan]

I'll leave it up to WaR and BGR to decide if they want to continue with it. I've nothing else to say on the matter.

[BohsPartisan]

Actually, since I have another reply to WaR, maybe the posts on this could be put into the Socialism thread:

This was on the CWI website today.

‘What’s Left?’ - Not Nick Cohen!
Former ‘radical’ journalist’s diatribe against anti-war movement and Left

Book review by Peter Taffe, General Secretary Socialist Party (CWI England and Wales)
Nick Cohen initially established his left credentials in his baiting attacks on the Blairites in the columns of The Observer newspaper. Yet, even then, he was in the ‘populist’ tradition of many writing for capitalist journals, who while making occasional waspish swipes against the right - including New Labour - possess no political anchor. They can, therefore, swing over just as easily to an opposite political stance when the political winds begin to change.

Paul Johnson - unknown to many, particularly young people today - started off on the left (much more to the left than Nick Cohen) as editor of the then left-wing journal, New Statesman, in the 1960s but ended up as a Daily Telegraph writer and a fervent Thatcherite.

Nick Cohen describes himself as being "on the liberal left". The term ‘left’ has been used since the time of the French Revolution – when the extreme republicans, the Jacobins and the ‘Mountain’ sat on the left of the French revolutionary Convention – to describe broad oppositional movements to the right-wing capitalist establishment.


Rest of the review (http://www.socialistworld.net/eng/2007/03/07britain.html)