Guardian article on Irish speakers.

[osarusan]

Look here (http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,1983434,00.html) for a Guardian article by a journo who is fluent in Irish, and travelled in Ireland speaking only Irish.

According to the article, 25% claim to speak it, whereas only 3% actually can.

I think he goes overboard about our "shame" at not being able to speak it, and the historical reasons behind it, but it is still interesting.

[WeAreRovers]

He's as Irish as you and me.

KOH

[osarusan]

He's as Irish as you and me.

KOH

Indeed, edited.

[Lim till i die]

Freeloaders all

It's a dead language. Get over it.

[SÓC]

Freeloaders all

It's a dead language. Get over it.

Indeed. Bloody freeloaders with their bloody annoying constitutional and human rights, they should all just speak English, begar sure they all can anyway, what difference would it make.

Lets chose what parts of the constitution we want to ignore today.

Never mind thats it is actually a growing language (not even endangered despite what Enda and his ilk will have us believe), or a crucial part of our cultural identity and history or that well over 100,000 people use the language every day.

[crc]

He articulates a lot of what I have felt about ár teanga. It's always possible to detect hostility towards the language among some people (e.g. Lim till i die) and I think a lot of people are afraid to use whatever Irish they have around strangers in case they meet someone who will become openly hostile with them (as was the case with Manchán Magan in Dublin). Its just easier to speak as Bearla and not invite any hostility.

He's also correct about people underestimating the amount of Irish they actually do have. I've even been into the café on Kildare St (is it called trí D, or something?) and was too afraid to ask for a sandwich in Irish just because I couldn't remember the Irish for "sandwich" ( I could have said "ba mhaith liom sandwich, le do thoil" but somehow it was just easier to ask for it in English).

Even when I spent a weekend on Inismór I didn't speak a word of Irish to any of the locals because I was afraid they might think I was trying to patronise them (though when we ran out of alcohol on the beach at 1am, I did shout "Cá bhfuil an vodka?")

All of which is completely retarded to be honest, as I speak better Irish than I do German or Spanish, but I've had full blown two/three minute conversations with shop assistants in Bremen with my very basic couple of German phrases, and when lost up the side of a mountain driving in Catalonia I successfully asked for directions in a curious mix of Spanish-Catalan-Italian without any of the local seeming to mind (or find it an obstacle to communication / navigation).

[Dodge]

DO Irish speakers get free stuff? I'd make more of an effort if so...

I can never understand the hostility towards it.

[noby]

I only saw a small piece of the program in question, but from what I saw, and other people's opinion, he seems to go about the whole thing with a bit of an attitude. If you stand in the middle of the street and start shouting, no-one is going to want to help you, no matter the language.

[SÓC]

DO Irish speakers get free stuff? I'd make more of an effort if so...

I can never understand the hostility towards it.

Yea lots of free stuff.

I think they get any of the free cars and mobile phones that the asylum seekers dont want.

Maybe people resent the language because they cant speak it despite having to learn it for nearly 15 years. Refrom of the method of education will and is going a long way

[John83]

DO Irish speakers get free stuff? I'd make more of an effort if so...

I can never understand the hostility towards it.
I used to be a bit hostile towards it. I think it's just an institutionalised thing from disliking the subject at school, thinking it pointless. A lot of people never grow out of that. There's also a reaction to a perceived arrogance from Irish speakers.

Regardless of all that, I think it's pretty understandable to be opposed to the EU thing - it's a substantial public expenditure for no gain.

[paul_oshea]

Even when I spent a weekend on Inismór I didn't speak a word of Irish to any of the locals because I was afraid they might think I was trying to patronise them

actually you do get inverted patronisation from those speakers, I know quite a few lads from carraroe, and they laugh at my mates from school who were getting a's and b's in higher level irish, as not being able to speak proper irish. Thats what really makes it intimidating. They do look down on us.

[WeAreRovers]

I think they get any of the free cars and mobile phones that the asylum seekers dont want.


:D

Would that be Irish-speaking asylum seekers or the feckless lot who insist on speaking English and their native tongue?


KOH

[Lim till i die]

DO Irish speakers get free stuff? I'd make more of an effort if so...

I can never understand the hostility towards it.

Extra points for doing your leaving cert through Irish

Grants for living in the Gaeltacht.

[Dodge]

You're right Lim! Irish Speakers OUT!!!!!

[Lim till i die]

You're right Lim! Irish Speakers OUT!!!!!

See, I knew I'd win you over

Now for my next pet hate, Northerners. Anyone with me??

[pineapple stu]

ár teanga.
Ár dteanga. I gconaí orú nach "ár" ;)

Can't argue with the rest of the post though.

Hostility towards Irish is just sad, to be honest, and really is people continuing to harbour their school-attitude towards it. I'd love to see the works of, say, JK Rowling, Agatha Christie, JRR Tolkein and other popular authors translated into Irish (I've heard you can get Harry Potter in Irish, but have never seen it) and distribute them to schools and the likes - get people into Irish at a younger age by making it cool.

People will be quite happy to hate the Brits for 800 years of hurt and so forth, but then hate the language that was forcibly beaten out of us at that time?

[crc]

Ár dteanga. I gconaí orú nach "ár" ;) :(
I could spend all day every day picking holes in the way people spell and use English on this forum, but somehow I manage to restrain myself! :p


...I've heard you can get Harry Potter in Irish, but have never seen it... I bought a copy of HP in Irish in Shannon Airport a year or two ago. I don't even like HP, but was pleased to see that a fairly modern piece had been translated. I didn't get to read it though; my sister gave it away to her friend as a birthday present before I got a chance.

[SÓC]

Extra points for doing your leaving cert through Irish

Grants for living in the Gaeltacht.

Extra points?

Begar, sure I heard they just add on 10% to your mark if you do your exams in Irish.

You get tiny amount for certain subjects to compensate for the lack of text books.

Ask any one who did their leaving through Irish and they'd much rather have proper text books instead of some "extra points" that very few benefit from.

Grants for living in the Gaeltacht? How would that be then? Do you just get a cheque from Ó Cúiv saying thanks for living here?

[CollegeTillIDie]

Ok many years ago a phrase was coined " gan teanga gan tír". No language no Country. I would ask you Lim Till I Die, if we abandon our language and our culture,what is it about us that makes us Irish? Is it our appalling lack of mellanin? Is it our capacity for alcohol? No I'd say that would make us just like the Scots.

[SligoBrewer]

ireland now is nearly identical in every way to england..

what separates us.. irish, its the only thing

[lopez]

I could spend all day every day picking holes in the way people spell and use English on this forum, but somehow I manage to restrain myself!Starting with the title of the thread.

Ok many years ago a phrase was coined " gan teanga gan tír". No language no Country. I would ask you Lim Till I Die, if we abandon our language and our culture,what is it about us that makes us Irish? Is it our appalling lack of mellanin? Is it our capacity for alcohol? No I'd say that would make us just like the Scots.

ireland now is nearly identical in every way to england..

what separates us.. irish, its the only thingWith attitudes like Lim, I don't know how Ireland ever broke from the Union. Interestingly, I've defended Ireland as being different to some foreign people with the fact that we have a living language. One French bird I was at college thought we were no different from Britain in the same way Austria was no different from Germany and Cyprus was no different from Greece.

[GavinZac]

or that well over 100,000 people use the language every day.

AAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA
HHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH

HHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA


AAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHA

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

HAHAHAHHAHA

*wheeze*

HHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA

[Student Mullet]

well over 100,000 people use the language every day.Only if you include all the school kids who take a daily 50min lesson.
It's definately the most misleading question on the census form.

[crc]

" gan teanga gan tír"I think the phrase you're thinking of is: "tír gan teanga, tír gan anam" (a country without a language is a country without a soul).

I don't buy this nonsense that the language is the only thing that seperates us from the English - there are loads of things that differentiate us, just like there are loads of things that we have in common, but I don't really care about any of that. I've found that Ireland actually has alot more in common with Canada than it does with England!

[Poor Student]

I don't buy this nonsense that the language is the only thing that seperates us from the English

Nor do I. In spite of the constitional status of Gaeilge, English has been the language of the majority of the people of this country for a long time. I was educated in English, I think in English and most of the time I communicate through English. I'm confident and secure enough to not let that diminish my feeling of being Irish. Equating the one language with being Irish is a form of primordial nationalism. The Celts are only one of a number of people to occupy and live on this island. Modern Irish identity is an amalgam of many different peoples, the Anglo tradition plays a strong part in this and to ignore this is to deny a large part of ourselves.

[noby]

Only if you include all the school kids who take a daily 50min lesson.
It's definately the most misleading question on the census form.
I guess it is misleading. Does using one word qualify as using the language? But there are a lot of gael scoil pupils who use the language more than just 50 minutes a day. The rising popularity of these schools will surely help the language. I guess the next step is to try to speak it outside of school.

[Lim till i die]

Ok many years ago a phrase was coined " gan teanga gan tír". No language no Country. I would ask you Lim Till I Die, if we abandon our language and our culture,what is it about us that makes us Irish? Is it our appalling lack of mellanin? Is it our capacity for alcohol? No I'd say that would make us just like the Scots.

Who said anything about wanting to be Irish??

A nation is after all just a collection of misguided people who think they have some kind of common bond.

I've a problem with money being spent on the Irish language when it could be used for far more useful purposes, you don't agree with me fine

[osarusan]

Starting with the title of the thread.


What is wrong with it?

[Dodge]

It was a type. I changed it

[lopez]

What is wrong with it?


It was a type. I changed it

Phew! I thought I was getting dyxlexia in my old age. :o

[Conor H]

Who said anything about wanting to be Irish??

A nation is after all just a collection of misguided people who think they have some kind of common bond.

I've a problem with money being spent on the Irish language when it could be used for far more useful purposes, you don't agree with me fine

That's a fairly powerful statement to make.What justifies it?TYou could say that about any country in the world so?

Our language is hated in schools and ignored in everyday life.But i think it's vital that all Irish people should be able to speak it.I can speak fluent enough Irish and i'm proud of it.It was also a big help in getting my course in NUIG.To deem the language irrelevant is bizzare.It's what makes us unique to any other country in the world.I would agree that giving people in the gaeltacht grants is a bit rich(no pun intended) but in fairness there isn't that many if them either.
I technically live in a gaeltacht but we don't get a grant.

In fact i think Terryland Park is located in a gaeltacht area.

[pineapple stu]

A nation is after all just a collection of misguided people who think they have some kind of common bond.
Misguided? Studies (like this one (http://www.eurofound.eu.int/pubdocs/2005/91/en/1/ef0591en.pdf) from the EU - pdf download) have shown that having a strong sense of belonging to a community - a town, a family, a country - increases people's general happiness and sense of well-being. You can argue all you like whether or not the Irish language would add to that - personally I feel it would - but to dismiss as misguided people who feel they have a common bond or a sense of belonging is just ignorance.



It's definately the most misleading question on the census form.
I'd love to know how many people tick that box out of a sense of shame about their level of Irish, and hoping in some bizarre way that this would make it better. Seriously.

[Raheny Red]

I had the chance this month to go to Carragh Roe for 2 weeks or spend a fortnight in the National Archives reading witness statements from 1916 and 1921, I chose the latter :D :eek: :cool:

[kingdom hoop]

Who said anything about wanting to be Irish??


I've a problem with money being spent on the Irish language when it could be used for far more useful purposes, you don't agree with me fine


if you want to live up to your name then you must want to be irish, i dont see limerick being teleported any day soon..

i think spending money on irish is very useful. its costing the EU 600k to work in irish for the next year. personally, hearing brian crowley MEP speak irish in the european parliament filled me with enormous pride, the emotion welled up inside of me almost producing a tear. while the moment didnt quite compare with robbie's equaliser v germany, it was a similar feeling. my point would be that if one proudly follows our sporting representatives(and the millions spent) why do they argue about our culture not deserving funding and attention.

by the way i did my leaving through irish. there are no extra points directly awarded. you get a percent of your grade up to a maximum of 10%, with a sliding scale the higher your mark, so if you got 50% you would get 55%, but then if you got 73% youd get about 78%. a 5% 'bonus' applies to subjects such as maths, technical graphics. with of course no bonus for english, which as it happens was my best result, a1:p the textbooks were indeed very poor, sometimes we'd read english books and then translate to irish, which would take half the class so we probably did deserve extra!!

[lopez]

Reading the article leaves me with a lot of optimism. Three things: Firslty: The young that are studying it, in particular Irish schools who seem to be (rather ironically) replacing the one thing guilty of putting the Irish on its deathbed, National schools. I'm all for foreign 'new' words being added, to the language. It helped English no ends. Secondly: Foreigners. It's as easy learning Irish as any other indo-European language. Thirdly: The middle classes. Irish is no longer a language of the peasantry, and despite what people may think, that makes a difference.

The next step is for it to become a first choice spoken language for these three mentioned groups. Because its all fine being able to claim to speak a language but the only way to be fluent in it is to live it.

Finally as someone who speaks little Irish (my father speaks even less) I do feel that you can consider yourself more Irish if you can speak it. My opinion of course, and a few people would question my Irishness for not being born there, it's my turn to have a pop. ;)

[paul_oshea]

read what david mcwilliams said about it then lopez, the yuppies are taking to the gaelscoileanna like there is no tomorrow. They love them and cant get enough, so that is good to see, where there is power there is money, and where there is money there is power to do greater and better things.

[CollegeTillIDie]

I wouldn't go to Carraroe to study Irish either... Gaoth Dobhair is by far the best spot for that :D

[CollegeTillIDie]

read what david mcwilliams said about it then lopez, the yuppies are taking to the gaelscoileanna like there is no tomorrow. They love them and cant get enough, so that is good to see, where there is power there is money, and where there is money there is power to do greater and better things.


Fair point and a lot of our immigrant's children are taking to it like ducks to water into the bargain. The future,may see a majority of Irish speakers in this country, who may well look Nigerian or Chinese or Slavic, and there's nothing wrong with that.

[lopez]

read what david mcwilliams said about it then lopez, the yuppies are taking to the gaelscoileanna like there is no tomorrow. They love them and cant get enough, so that is good to see, where there is power there is money, and where there is money there is power to do greater and better things.The same thing has happened in Spain with Galician which has the highest per capita language usage of the three minority languages (principally due to low immigration as opposed to the Basque country and Catalonia). It was always regarded as the peasants' language. Now it is something that is being embraced by the urban middle classes whom would never be heard speaking it before.
Fair point and a lot of our immigrant's children are taking to it like ducks to water into the bargain. The future,may see a majority of Irish speakers in this country, who may well look Nigerian or Chinese or Slavic, and there's nothing wrong with that.I don't know why, but the more languages you speak, the easier it is to learn another language. This not only points to why the immigrant kids are doing well in it (it would be better if they spoke it often), but why kids who learn in Irish schools will get better results in a third or fourth modern language.

[bennocelt]

ireland now is nearly identical in every way to england..

what separates us.. irish, its the only thing


thats rubbish
i live in britain, beleive me the irish are so different to the brits, we have a personality for a start, and a sense of humour

about the irish thing, i can see the revival from where im from in ireland, a lot of my neighbours have suddenly got the urge to start learning irish, its the "in" thing
thats great
i am not good at speaking it myself, but im ashamed of that
my excuse..............the way it was taught in school was shameful, beaten into you, and taught like english in that you know how to speak it, should have been taught like a foreign language from scratch
and how come irish teachers were always the worst teachers around, the bullyboys, and the thick!

[SÓC]

my excuse..............the way it was taught in school was shameful, beaten into you, and taught like english in that you know how to speak it, should have been taught like a foreign language from scratch
and how come irish teachers were always the worst teachers around, the bullyboys, and the thick!

I think that is a very valid point and it has to some extent been addressed of late.

This Government, despite all its failings and errors has done more for the Irish language during its tenure in office than ANY previous Government, particularly Minister Ó Cúiv. Even Herr McDowell deserves praise. They've reformed the methods teaching the language, they've given the language new relevence in a modern world with the Official Languages Act and the EU status and other schemes. Whilst teaching a language in a new and improved way is vital it'd all be for nought if there was no end point save for learning a language just for the language's sake. Now for the first time since the foundation of the state the Government is finally paying more than just lip service to the national language and long may it continue.

Also on the Gaelscoileanna, niece and nephew are in big one in Cork and at last count there were 15 :eek: different nationalities attending, speaking and learning exclusively through Irish!

[GavinZac]

Also on the Gaelscoileanna, niece and nephew are in big one in Cork and at last count there were 15 :eek: different nationalities attending, speaking and learning exclusively through Irish!
in fairness it'll be worth the effort to watch Sacar Beo, right?

[Lim till i die]

That's a fairly powerful statement to make.What justifies it?TYou could say that about any country in the world so?

Of course you could, I still stand by it


Misguided? Studies (like this one (http://www.eurofound.eu.int/pubdocs/2005/91/en/1/ef0591en.pdf) from the EU - pdf download) have shown that having a strong sense of belonging to a community - a town, a family, a country - increases people's general happiness and sense of well-being. You can argue all you like whether or not the Irish language would add to that - personally I feel it would - but to dismiss as misguided people who feel they have a common bond or a sense of belonging is just ignorance.


Community being the key word for me there

I have a strong sense of feeling like a Limerick person. I've a strong sense of pride in my city (Although sometimes...............) But let's be honest. What do I have in common with someone from say Castlebar other than some vague notion of "Irishness" an Irishness which I personally find to be largely abhorrent.

Stop flogging the dead horse of people not liking Irish because they had to do it at school too please. Maybe that's true in some cases but personally I don't see why I would hate Irish more than say Honours Maths or Geography. Tracing it all back to school is just lazy

Do you think it should be compulsory??

[SÓC]

Stop flogging the dead horse of people not liking Irish because they had to do it at school too please. Maybe that's true in some cases but personally I don't see why I would hate Irish more than say Honours Maths or Geography. Tracing it all back to school is just lazy

Do you think it should be compulsory??

But Irish was not taught to you in the manner that Honurs maths was. It was thought as a language with the assumption that you spoke it already and that reading the rantings of an old woman from some Island would help you understand it.

I think that Irish should be 100% compulsory, best way to preserve it and encourgage its use. That doesnt mean that I think the present system is flawless though

[Macy]

I think that Irish should be 100% compulsory ... encourgage its use.
Hasn't worked so far. The only real difference between the FF and FG on the issue is whether it's compulsory, and whether it should count towards points for the leaving. I've no problem with it being compulsory, but the latter concerns me tbh - Irish shouldn't be preventing someone who is excellent at the sciences (for example) from attaining the points for medicine. Could be argued that's more an arguement for reform of the points system I suppose.

You can't have the debate about Irish Language Schools, particularly with regard to the middle classes, without bringing in the class size factor. One of the main factors which lead to their popularity in recent years was that class sizes were smaller. So is it down to a real desire for the language or knock on effect of the fact that the rest of the education is cronically short of teachers, buildings etc?

[Lim till i die]

I think that Irish should be 100% compulsory, best way to preserve it and encourgage its use. That doesnt mean that I think the present system is flawless though

Would you really rather your son or daughter learn Irish when they could be learning something useful like German, French, Spanish or Italian??

[bennocelt]

Would you really rather your son or daughter learn Irish when they could be learning something useful like German, French, Spanish or Italian??

how useful was french or german to youin later life? didnt do me much good

[SÓC]

Hasn't worked so far. The only real difference between the FF and FG on the issue is whether it's compulsory, and whether it should count towards points for the leaving. I've no problem with it being compulsory, but the latter concerns me tbh - Irish shouldn't be preventing someone who is excellent at the sciences (for example) from attaining the points for medicine. Could be argued that's more an arguement for reform of the points system I suppose.

You can't have the debate about Irish Language Schools, particularly with regard to the middle classes, without bringing in the class size factor. One of the main factors which lead to their popularity in recent years was that class sizes were smaller. So is it down to a real desire for the language or knock on effect of the fact that the rest of the education is cronically short of teachers, buildings etc?

Huge differences between FF and FG on Irish language issues (one of the few areas where there are substantive differences). FG have done nothing for the language when in power, its one issue which the present FF led government has really delivered upon. The EU status was on the table year and years ago but FG decided they didnt want it back then. When it comes down to education even there are differences, although not quite as pronounced in areas such as justice and access to services. Mainly in levels of funding, third level and of course Enda's talk of making Irish non-compulsory which I have not heard much of lately.

You point about points ( :) ) is a valid one, but then again people do seven subjects so Irish doesnt have to count.

Any Irish language school I've seen or been in the last 15 years has had very large class sizes but I dont know what they're like in comparrison to English language schools tbh.

If/when I have children Lim till I Die I plan to teach them Irish from day one, at the same time as I'm teaching them English. I'm strange that way I think people knowing their national language is useful. Also I managed to learn French and German despite spending my time learning Irish too. At the moment I'm learning Welsh and as Lopez said earlier, the more languages you speak the easier it is to learn others.

[Lim till i die]

how useful was french or german to youin later life? didnt do me much good

I'll let you know ;)

[Lim till i die]

If/when I have children Lim till I Die I plan to teach them Irish from day one, at the same time as I'm teaching them English. I'm strange that way I think people knowing their national language is useful. Also I managed to learn French and German despite spending my time learning Irish too. At the moment I'm learning Welsh and as Lopez said earlier, the more languages you speak the easier it is to learn others.

How so??

Civil Service??

Primary Teaching??

Tg4??

After that I'm a bit stumped :o