View Full Version : Public v Private Sector Debate
Peadar
17/01/2007, 8:49 AM
As someone who works in the public sector I take great offence at your private sector chauvinism.
As someone who has to work with public sector agencies and deal with their complacent attitude, lack of ambition and eagerness to continually pass the buck, I stand by my assertion.
Don't even get me started on flexi-time.
We commit to deliver projects on time and within budget but have to contend with public sector employees who are determined to drag the projects out as long as possible, simply to justify their own existence.
I've seen it all and it will take a lot to change my opinion of the public sector.
Loving the generalisation Peadar. I'd put my workload and work ethic up against any priovate sector worker (And I do get the irony of doing this during work hours..)
Peadar
17/01/2007, 9:46 AM
Loving the generalisation Peadar. I'd put my workload and work ethic up against any priovate sector worker (And I do get the irony of doing this during work hours..)
Dodge, we've had this conversation before. There are too few people willing to put the effort in and you're the exception, not the rule.
A woman in the department which we both know, once told me that any ambition you may have when you join the Civil Service, is soon sucked out of you and the longer you stay, the more reluctant you are to encourage change.
She told me this during one of her many coffee breaks, having just come back from being on a flexi day.
A flexi day she got by working 7 hours more than her normal time...
I'm just saying I could point to people in private sector jobs who doss just as much and have just as cushy numbers as some in the civil service. of course there are lazy sods in the civil service, but not everyone is like that and IMO the majority of people aren't like that.
WeAreRovers
17/01/2007, 10:02 AM
Peader - Your lazy generalisations do nothing but give ammunition to dinosaurs like Bohs Partisan. I work in the public service, I have deadlines which I must meet (and do meet), same goes for everyone in my job. Others in here have targets to meet and again, they do their utmost to meet them.
My point is about unions running public transport and other utilities eg ESB, which cripples service and does nothing for paying customers. The CIE group of companies are an obvious example. But to tar all public servants with the same brush is plain wrong.
KOH
My point is about unions running public transport and other utilities eg ESB, which cripples service and does nothing for paying customers. The CIE group of companies are an obvious example.
I think the problem is that as private sector workers we see the public sector as one big group. I believe this is because of the public sector unions sticking together & often supporting incompetence & intrangience in other sections.
If unions were willing to refuse support for sections of their members who clearly resisting change just because they can't be replaced they'd be taken a lot more seriously by the rest of us.
My favourite first hand story is from friend who had to install software for a public sector office. Dispite the fact everyone paid by direct debit into their bank accounts they continued to be given 1 hour paid leave per month just because once apon a time they used to get this to cash their cheques.
:rolleyes:
paul_oshea
17/01/2007, 10:21 AM
A flexi day she got by working 7 hours more than her normal time...
I do that every fcuken week bar when I am off the clock but i still work more than 80% in the public sector.
Peadar, I stand beside you on this one, WE have seen different areas of public sector, know others who have also been in many different areas of public sector, not like these lot who only see their own department.
When I worked for my previous company, I used to work till 11.30 some evenings, prolly only once every 2 weeks, but most evenings were until 7 or 8. That does not happen in the public sector, and there was no such thing as flexi time, or days off or overtime pay or anything. When I settle down and have a family, guess where I am applying for a job?????? ya you guessed it.
Over here its even easier, everyone says about the CS, that all the work gets done from 10 - 12, and nothing after that, they ONLY have to be in the office from 10 - 12 and 2 - 4, how fcuken easy is that?
Its funny how defensive some can be though when they think there cage or existence is rattled, its proof they know how handy they have it and dont want it to be changed.
BohsPartisan
17/01/2007, 10:26 AM
Peader - Your lazy generalisations do nothing but give ammunition to dinosaurs like Bohs Partisan.
I hope you see the irony WAR. :rolleyes:
When I worked for my previous company, I used to work till 11.30 some evenings, prolly only once every 2 weeks, but most evenings were until 7 or 8
Its not our fault you're a sucker.
Dodge
17/01/2007, 10:28 AM
I do that every fcuken week bar when I am off the clock but i still work more than 80% in the public sector.
Peadar, I stand beside you on this one, WE have seen different areas of public sector, know others who have also been in many different areas of public sector, not like these lot who only see their own department.
Not going to answer the rest of your post because I don't want to get banne dhere (it onvolved calling you a ****ig thick ****) but you're presuming an awful lot about me, WeAreRovers and Bohs partisan if you think we've only ever had one job. I suiggest you get a ****ing clue before you come on pontificating and moaning about how **** your job is
paul_oshea
17/01/2007, 10:34 AM
no i dont think you have had one job, but i have seen loads of different departments within the public sector, from Education to environment and rural agencies to work and pensions. Like it or not Dodge, its a generalisation from everyone that doesnt work in the public sector, and generalisations are generally true thats the real problem with them. I have seen this myself with my own eyes, to back this up. I amn't however saying there aren't lazy fcukers ( with no change management/structural change or feelings to ever want to change either ) that work outside of the public sector either. When i said "these lot" i was refering to those within the public sector that i have seen.
finally I wasn't assuming anything about you or anyone else on the forum, just what i have seen in the public sector ( again you never read or understand my posts correctly ) ;)
BohsPartisan
17/01/2007, 10:41 AM
There are very few sections in my building that are under-worked and thats a fact. In fact in the building I was in before that you could say the same thing. I'm not saying there are no inneficiencies but I would put that down to the Laurel and Hardy buffoonery of a lot of senior management and ironically enough, the role of outside consultants who haven't a breeze what we do yet bullsh't the higher ups into thinking they're worth millions of euros of departmental budget.
Peadar
17/01/2007, 10:46 AM
There are very few sections in my building that are under-worked and thats a fact. In fact in the building I was in before that you could say the same thing. I'm not saying there are no inneficiencies but I would put that down to the Laurel and Hardy buffoonery of a lot of senior management and ironically enough, the role of outside consultants who haven't a breeze what we do yet bullsh't the higher ups into thinking they're worth millions of euros of departmental budget.
Civil Service basic training, how to look busy and get nothing done.
Anyone here every had to ring the Revenue Commisioners? or their Local Authority about getting on the Register of Electors? or any other department for that matter?
BohsPartisan
17/01/2007, 10:48 AM
Anyone here every had to ring the Revenue Commisioners? or their Local Authority about getting on the Register of Electors? or any other department for that matter?
Yeah but its never the staff that suggest those phonebanks to nowhere.
As for your snide remark, put you in the Benefits section in Social Welfare I GAURANTEE you'd run out screaming by the end of day two!
WeAreRovers
17/01/2007, 10:51 AM
I hope you see the irony WAR. :rolleyes:
Well spotted, still think you're a political dinosaur though. ;)
KOH
paul_oshea
17/01/2007, 10:55 AM
the role of outside consultants who haven't a breeze what we do yet bullsh't the higher ups into thinking they're worth millions of euros of departmental budget.
question then, why do you think it is that they get so many consultants in? Obviouslly they feel they can learn and need to change things round to work more effectively and cut costs, otherwise surely they would continue as they are already doing?
Its not our fault you're a sucker.
That line sums up the difference between the mindset and mentality of those who work in the public sector and private sector completely. The simple, ( extremely ) flexible hours and flexi time, cushy number 35 hour weeks, less if you be nice to your manager (and say you "have to do the shopping tonight early" - or something silly to that effect ) lots of breaks, pretend you are doing work, no ambition to get somewhere, ah yes the civil service workforce.
dahamsta
17/01/2007, 11:05 AM
paul_o_shea, we have a "fcuken" filter for a reason. From now on all posts of yours that try to avoid it will be deleted.
Same goes for the rest of ye. Calm down for feck's sake, ye sound like ranting eejits!
Peadar
17/01/2007, 11:08 AM
As for your snide remark, put you in the Benefits section in Social Welfare I GAURANTEE you'd run out screaming by the end of day two!
Because you guys are so special, you have super powers, that us lame old private sector folk don't have.
I've worked for loads government departments state agencies, between here and the UK. I've worked around the world. I've seen and done it all. Believe me, dealing with Civil Servants, who will try to drop you in it, to cover their own arses is where the real danger is. You've got to be constantly on your toes.
Unlike your lot, we can lose our jobs, if we're deemed to be unprofessional. That's why we can't behave like civil servants. That's why we're 100 times more efficient. That's why we're paid to come in and do their jobs for them.
dahamsta
17/01/2007, 11:09 AM
On topic, I have (extended) family working in the civil service, and they always struck me as hard-working and conscientious. However I've met the other type, and their attitudes were sickening. The problem with these is obviously the jobs-for-life mentality, which shouldn't be a factor. There should be no such thing as a job for life, not in the civil service, not in education (tenure), not anywhere.
adam
BohsPartisan
17/01/2007, 11:12 AM
question then, why do you think it is that they get so many consultants in? Obviouslly they feel they can learn and need to change things round to work more effectively and cut costs, otherwise surely they would continue as they are already doing?
No its for a number of reasons.
1. Political. Outsoursing is privatisation by stealth. The government is ideologically committed to this.
2. People making decisions being dazzled by vacuous consultant speak (have you ever played Bullsh1t Bingo? Google it).
3. Cut backs in training budgets. (despite the fact that long term, in house training is more cost-effective).
As a union rep, I have encountered quite a few cases where my department has outsourced where the skills already existed within the department.
That line sums up the difference between the mindset and mentality of those who work in the public sector and private sector completely.
No it just sums up that people have lives and aren't willing to work ridiculous hours when they have families.You don't live to work, you work to live and if work stops you from living it defeats the purpose. BTW I work way more than 35 hours a week. Flexi-time is as beneficial for the department and people using the departmental services as it is for staff.
Because you guys are so special, you have super powers, that us lame old private sector folk don't have.
.
Its only the inverse of what you've been saying all along so don't start crying now. It is my experience of consultants that they are completely incompetant at everything bar swindling the department.
When I worked for my previous company, I used to work till 11.30 some evenings, prolly only once every 2 weeks, but most evenings were until 7 or 8. That does not happen in the public sector.
Paul O Shea - you are of course completely incorrect here. Yes, it DOES happen, you just don't know of it therefore your points are pretty much made in ignorance.
Peadar - ever try ring a support company with their call centre based in India? Dealt with NTL lately? BT internet? - You see where I'm going with this one don't you? Ring your local authority - 99 times out of a hundred I'd wager any money you'd get a more satisfactory response to your query than any call to the companies mentioned (and countless others who provide mediocre "customer service").
Peadar
17/01/2007, 11:19 AM
It is my experience of consultants that they are completely incompetant at everything bar swindling the department.
Just shows how bad the cs are when incompetent consultants have to be brought in to do their jobs for them. Doesn't say much for your department.
Ask Dodge if he thinks that we were incompetent or if he believes his own colleagues could have done the job.
Ring your local authority - 99 times out of a hundred I'd wager any money you'd get a more satisfactory response to your query than any call to the companies mentioned (and countless others who provide mediocre "customer service").
We can choose the private companies we deal with...
rebs23
17/01/2007, 11:23 AM
Whatever about lazy generalisations the resistance to change amongst some sectors of the public sector and the trade union militantcy in evidence is leading to a lot of resentment amongst private sector workers towards public sector workers and what is percieved as their "cushy numbers".
The ESRI has reported in the past about the better pay and conditions available in the public sector, the CSO has reported the same about pay and conditions in the public sector in comparable jobs with comparable skills requirements, there are very few problems recruiting for the public sector, so all the available evidence shows you're better off working for the government!!! Thats why we are all trying to get jobs there! So how does it feel Bohspartisan propping up the evil capitalist state! I am suprised you are part of the machine keeping the masses downtrodden!:D
BohsPartisan
17/01/2007, 11:25 AM
We can choose the private companies we deal with...
Yeah but they're all as incompetant as the next. Once they get your money they don't care. Telecom Eireann was a far better service than Eircom. Easier to deal with, none of this call centre rubbish.
So how does it feel Bohspartisan propping up the evil capitalist state! I am suprised you are part of the machine keeping the masses downtrodden!:D
I'm only doing this until I get my big break in Hollywood. :D
We can choose the private companies we deal with...
Theres choice in everything. Vote for Kim Il Sung Eire branch to implement your ideas. Soon we'll all be working 23 hour days 356 days of the year!
All hail our glorious leader!
Having worked to the ground with and dealt with Dell & their customers and since having worked in the very busy State Lab, I know which set of people I'd want working for me.
And it's not Dell. There is not direct dealing with the public though with the State Lab, so I can understand that its work goes unnoticed and standard issue uninformed public sector comments might be assigned to it and I'm sure many other workforces.
My point: There could be a hell of a lot of work going with your query behind the person who answers the phone who unfortunately is the public image.
Peadar
17/01/2007, 12:04 PM
My point: There could be a hell of a lot of work going with your query behind the person who answers the phone who unfortunately is the public image.
My point is that I've seen what goes on behind the phones...
Dodge
17/01/2007, 12:07 PM
My point is that I've seen what goes on behind the phones...
In all departments/offices/companies that deal with the public?
My point is that I've seen what goes on behind the phones...
and you complained and now vodafone treat you like a king because you threatened legal action against them. so you get great service whilst all there othe rlucky customers get shafted up the rear.
I want to hear more about your capitalist utopia Peadar!
paul_oshea
17/01/2007, 12:13 PM
Paul O Shea - you are of course completely incorrect here. Yes, it DOES happen, you just don't know of it therefore you're points are pretty much made in ignorance.
1 in 10, is a lot different to 4 - 6 in 10. Don't even start wws you don't have a clue. The only way you learn these things is from first hand experience and in my line of work I have seen this , and there you can build up statistics, see the differences, and conform to generalisations even. I have, and I have conformed ( unfortunately maybe )
..and I've done the work behind the phones in both sectors. Have you seen the amount of people who couldn't care less if they tried in the private sector and the percentage of these in the jobs for a long time?
I presume you're aware of the day-to-day big mistakes made because of unrealistic demands and deadlines made on employees in the private sector?
Dodge
17/01/2007, 12:22 PM
1 in 10, is a lot different to 4 - 6 in 10. Don't even start wws you don't have a clue. The only way you learn these things is from first hand experience and in my line of work I have seen this , and there you can build up statistics, see the differences, and conform to generalisations even. I have, and I have conformed ( unfortunately maybe )
SO you're the only person one this thread qualified to debate it? Get a ****ing grip man and stop presuming you know the people on this thread.
don't waste your time applying logic here dfx
an idiot with a big "idea-r" is a lot like a mule with a spinning wheel....no one knows how he got it....and dang knows what he's gonna do with it
dahamsta
17/01/2007, 12:27 PM
Telecom Eireann was a far better service than Eircom. Easier to deal with, none of this call centre rubbish.Sorry, but no. The term "biddies" as used on Boards.ie is a hangover from the TE days, when the telephone lines were populated by insufferable, ignorant women that didn't give a toss about you or your telephone line, and demonstrated it in every patronising, sneering syllable they uttered. Don't even get me started on the months and in some cases years people had to wait for a telephone line. I don't like Eircom one bit, but their customer support is heaps better now than when it was privatised.
adam
dahamsta
17/01/2007, 12:29 PM
paul_o_shea, how many warnings do you need? One more comment like "you don't have a clue" and you'll be banned permanently from the Current Affairs forum. I mean one more comment ever. Tone it down or shut up.
Dodge, ffs you know better than to feed that kind of guff.
adam
Dodge
17/01/2007, 12:31 PM
Just ****ed off as I'm under mad pressure in work and then reading this crap on my break....
Peadar
17/01/2007, 12:33 PM
The number of CS staff on this forum, "debating" stuff, when they should be doing what the taxpayers money pays for them today, is unreal!
It's no wonder the country is in such a mess!
I've said it many times, it doesn't matter who we vote into government, unless the CS is completely overhauled, nothing will change.
Just ****ed off as I'm under mad pressure in work and then reading this crap on my break....
:D :D
Which break would that be now? :D
Dodge
17/01/2007, 12:39 PM
About the same amount of corporate whores though Peadar... :)
Peadar
17/01/2007, 12:42 PM
About the same amount of corporate whores though Peadar... :)
We're accountable to a private company, not the taxpayer...
don't waste your time applying logic here dfx
an idiot with a big "idea-r" is a lot like a mule with a spinning wheel....no one knows how he got it....and dang knows what he's gonna do with it
I know...much better to complain about a delay in your query than wonder why your €1000 pc is in some unknown location because someone has *forgot* or more likely (in the private sector) literally hasn't had the time to check on it.
Peadar
17/01/2007, 12:47 PM
The only reason I have time to post here is because I'm contracted to the State and spend a lot of my day, waiting on cs staff to deliver.
You'd choke if you knew how much I cost the State per day! :D
The only reason I have time to post here is because I'm contracted to the State and spend a lot of my day, waiting on cs staff to deliver.
You'd choke if you knew how much I cost the State per day! :D
Who made the decision to hire you lot? Civil Servants? :D
Well spotted, still think you're a political dinosaur though. ;)
KOH
"Now go away"
WAR in agreeing with Bertie shocker:p
People working crazy hours, living to work instead of working to live should organise themselves. People can't see that the reason they're working crazy, illegal hours is because they've abandoned Trade Unions, voted for the Tories in the UK/ FF and PD's in this country, and instead blame those in work places that have kept that commitment going.
There is no conceivable reason that people can be advocating working the hours that Paul O'Shea is quoting. That is madness. It would not be worth the additional money to work in that kind of environment - so that's the pay off. Less money* for better terms and conditions in the Public Sector, or taking a step back to the 1800's for more money and no life. All you've done is swap the mill for an office.
*And it is less money for most civil and public servants, regardless of flawed average figures that are put out.
dahamsta
17/01/2007, 1:14 PM
We're accountable to a private company, not the taxpayer...It works both ways Peadar, and you know it. I don't know whether you work in a large company or not, but the vast majority of large companies work solely for profit, with little or no consideration for employees, customers, the environment or anything else. The civil service has it's faults, but so does the private sector. Trying to prove that one is better than the other in general is like trying to nail jelly to the ceiling.
adam
dahamsta
17/01/2007, 1:16 PM
BTW, the public/private "where do you find the time" jokes stopped being funny after the first one. Get back on topic please, save the jokes for OT.
adam
Peadar
17/01/2007, 1:18 PM
People working crazy hours, living to work instead of working to live should organise themselves. People can't see that the reason they're working crazy, illegal hours is because they've abandoned Trade Unions, voted for the Tories in the UK/ FF and PD's in this country, and instead blame those in work places that have kept that commitment going.
The fact of the matter is that it's people with determination, commitment and ambition, in the private sector, who have turned Ireland into such a wealthy country. The civil servants want to get pay increases, on the back of our ability.
The civil service hasn't changed since Ireland was under British rule, yet they expect credit for powering our economy.
paul_oshea
17/01/2007, 1:31 PM
I think it shows in the last 15 years what international investment and privatisation-leading to- better competition and better infrastructure can do.
dahamasta, I am not going to get into a big thing about this ( this comment and thats it ), but there isn't much if any difference between, "you are ignorant" and "you dont have a clue".
Finally, I think some people are too sensitive, its not a case of "my dick is bigger than your dick" i.e. my job and what i do is better than you, which is what certain people seemed to think. It was more a public v private sector and attitudes to work I was refering to.
WeAreRovers
17/01/2007, 1:33 PM
"Now go away"
WAR in agreeing with Bertie shocker:p
I'm more a FFer every day. Getting old I suppose. :(
KOH
The fact of the matter is that it's people with determination, commitment and ambition, in the private sector, who have turned Ireland into such a wealthy country
And it was the Trade Unions that came up with the idea of a national plan aka national wage agreement that developed the right environment to allow that to take place.
Even if you accept that argument, then you must also recognise that public servants relative position has dramatically decreased during this period too. A teacher, nurse, clerical officer, executive officer used to be relatively well off, being able to afford housing on the open market in Dublin for example. Now most don't even reach the rate to allow them qualify for affordable housing. So it hasn't been without cost to the public service if that's the arguement you want to make.
paul_oshea
17/01/2007, 1:41 PM
You'd choke if you knew how much I cost the State per day!
1000 euro a day id say, in and around anyhow!!!
Macy, madness yes maybe but it depends what you want from life and how quickly.
The reason that gets people is because it is so hard to get into the public sector ( almost like an old boys network in one sense ), and they see its cushy and a handy number, then they see their paycheck and 800 a month is coming out on tax or whatever. Maybe its jealously, I dont know ( not in my case, not yet anyhow ;) ), but it makes people ask awkward questions, and it also makes people perceive things, that when you go in and see for yourself, can be answered!!!
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