Shels could lose European place

[RonnieB]

Wonder if the sale of Dillon will allow the outstanding amount that is apparently owed to Longford for him be paid.

[soccerc]

If Shels are entitled to a cut in Stokes transfer fee, then so are Cherry Orchard whom he played for before his father took the whole team to Shels.

Didn't he play for Esker Celtic too?

[wws]

Wonder if the sale of Dillon will allow the outstanding amount that is apparently owed to Longford for him be paid.

might stop them haemorraging players


the Irish off-season really does throw a light on the farce behind the thin veneer of Delaneys PR guff about progress

financially its worse than ever - and getting worserererer

[Poor Student]

Exactly. Dundee wanted him available so they paid up.

Ollie's brass neck pays again.

It's Dundee United not Dundee.

[passerrby]

they have no grounds for claim on stokes move ,just sending a begging letter i believe

[Mr A]

they have no grounds for claim on stokes move ,just sending a begging letter i believe

Did Stokes every play for Shels youth teams? If so they'd be due 0.5% of the fee for each year he was there. I think the rule is that 5% of each fee goes to the clubs a player was at from age 12-22, split according to the length of time at each club. Am not sure how it works in the case that the player is younger, but if he spent time at Shels they're probably due a few quid.

[oriel]

Shels are surely running the risk of being the weakest ever irish team in europe (for league champions)

only similar comparisons is our old 'friends' from Drogs, who lost 0-6 + 0-8 to Spurs in 83 in uefa cup (2 years after we lost to them 1-2 on agg)

but to be fair drogs lost their ENTIRE team during the summer (who came 2nd that prev season)

[pineapple stu]

Secondly, foot.ie posters and soccer fans in general don't react well to other club fans preaching to them. I have seen perfectly sensible people who know plenty of the workings in shels post insanely on here just to not have to listen to a Bohs fan or a UCD fan tell them about their own club.
A large part of the problem a lot of people have with Shels fans (not necessarily you, who do at least to be one of your more rational Shels fans, legal threats over screen grabbing of unfortunate typos aside! :)) is that Shels fans were perfectly happy to rub everyone's noses in their success, even though it was pointed out to them that this sort of scenario was utterly inevitable (and we're talking since the first winding up order, when it was quite clear that Shels were screwed). We have people, for example, slagging UCD for sticking to a budget, saying that we were unambitious. We have people saying that nothing was going to happen and that Ollie would sort everything, even though it was clear that wasn't going to happen. We have people refuting arguments by comparing number of league titles won in the past couple of years or by saying that everyone hates a successful club. It's this sort of pig ignorance which has irritated quite a lot of people - not just refusing to even engage in discourse about Shels' problems, but actually having the gall to say that other clubs were badly run or holding the league back or were jealous of Shels. The utter ingraciousness in your fleeting success has made people quite happy for you now to lie in the beds you have made.

The sooner Shels fans accept that, the sooner we can get back to being a happy family again.

[Gareth]

Pineapple Stu, its kinda funny, because as an individual I firmly believe and try to follow the idea that you work within your means and build on a solid base, gradually if needs be, knowing your limits and boundaries, and not taking excessive risk to put the very core of your business in danger. By doing this, you gain not only solid sturdy progress, but like many UCD fans are doing, gaining a moral highground on which you can then point and say that others are foolhardy. I do not equate spending wildly as a benchmark for ambition, nor do I believe that an answer to a question should come in the form of "we have x amount of titles more than you, so back in your box". Its pretty useless in a debate and generally if I was to see that kind of response, I'd accept I was dealing with a tool. Regarding Eircom League football,

I fully understand the spite people have for Shels, because of the ways things have been done over the years, but I would ask to consider the many decent normal fans who feel gutted, and wish that they did have the power to change things. My belief for the league to progress is about working together with other clubs, without the petty bickering you would expect from fans. If we want to be treated as professional, you have to act it, and just because I am a shels fan does not mean I conduct my business the way the club I support does, and likewise many Shels fans.

I praise clubs who are getting the management side sorted. I'd love to be able to do that for the club I support.

[Student Mullet]

If we want to be treated as professional, you have to act it, and just because I am a shels fan does not mean I conduct my business the way the club I support does, and likewise many Shels fans.

I praise clubs who are getting the management side sorted. I'd love to be able to do that for the club I support.Top marks to Gareth. A top fan and hopefully him and his ilk will keep Shels on the go.

But please, Gareth and Pineapple, use paragraphs.

[Poor Student]

Bert Kassies says this:
A licence is obligatory for clubs qualifying for UEFA club competitions in the 2004/05 season. A club which has qualified on the basis of sporting criteria but is not allowed to enter the competition because it has not obtained a licence, will be replaced by a club nominated by the national association on the basis of the rankings in the top domestic league championship (or by the runners-up of the domestic cup competition if the cup winners need to be replaced).

There's two precedents I can think of where clubs qualified on sporting criteria missed out on Europe, Slovenia 2003/04 season where 6th placed Primorje got into the UEFA and 7th placed Domzale got into the UEFA (this in a 12 team league) as only the champions Gorica and cup winners Maribor (3rd place) were able to secure a licence. I know Olimpija failed on the basis of money owed to players.

In 2004/05 no Kazakhstan club got a licence so none got into Europe.

[fbtn]

From the BBC Website
Shelbourne's Euro place in danger

Shelbourne's place in next season's Champions League is reported to be under threat because of the Dublin club's financial problems.

If the Shels lose the Uefa licence required to compete in Europe, their place could go to Derry City who were runners-up in the Eircom League.

In December Shelbourne's manager Pat Fenlon quit and moved to Derry City.

It is believed some Shelbourne players want to take the club to a tribunal in an attempt to become free agents.

Shelbourne pipped Derry to the Premier Division title on goal difference to clinch the place in the Champions League.

But the Tolka Park club have run up huge debts and could be forced revert to a part-time set-up.

By finishing runners-up, Derry City qualified for the Uefa Cup.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/irish/6242023.stm

[Dodge]

Derry gor europe by winning the cup, which ranks higher than runners up. Stoopid BBC

[Tazskool]

BBC Sport:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/irish/6242023.stm
-----------

Shelbourne's place in next season's Champions League is reported to be under threat because of the Dublin club's financial problems.
If the Shels lose the Uefa licence required to compete in Europe, their place could go to Derry City who were runners-up in the Eircom League.

In December Shelbourne's manager Pat Fenlon quit and moved to Derry City.

It is believed some Shelbourne players want to take the club to a tribunal in an attempt to become free agents.

Shelbourne pipped Derry to the Premier Division title on goal difference to clinch the place in the Champions League.

But the Tolka Park club have run up huge debts and could be forced revert to a part-time set-up.

By finishing runners-up, Derry City qualified for the Uefa Cup
----------

[pineapple stu]

It's just two posts above you!!

[Tazskool]

lol.. ddint see it... blind as a bat and twice as stupid today ...sorry all..
(I had an "English" moment) ;)

[John83]

From the BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/irish/6242023.stm).

I haven't been following the Shels developments closely, so I'm sorry if this is already known. If that's the case, the mods can deal with this.

Does anyone know the criteria under which the licence is awarded? (I assume this is different to the FAI's UEFA licencing!) If Shels were to lose the European spot, it would cost them not only money, but the draw that their CL spot might have for some new players.

[centre mid]

isnt it up to the FA of each country to award the european spots, i remember were liverpool won the CL but only came 5th in the league that the english FA could have awarded them the place instead of everton

it seems plausable that the FAI could award the CL place to Derry but on what would this decision be based

[John83]

it seems plausable that the FAI could award the CL place to Derry but on what would this decision be based
On the grounds that Shelbourne would not be allowed to take it up by UEFA.

[centre mid]

Fair enough

I didnt bother to read the link

[pineapple stu]

Already covered here (http://foot.ie/showthread.php?t=50187).

[BohsPartisan]

isnt it up to the FA of each country to award the european spots, i remember were liverpool won the CL but only came 5th in the league that the english FA could have awarded them the place instead of everton



They couldn't have because it contradicted their own rules and Everton threatened a lawsuit over it. After that they changed the rules so the following year had Spurs finished 4th and Arsenal won the CL, Arsenal would have taken the place.
In Shels case however its a matter of licencing. If they don't pass the criteria for a UEFA licence they can't play in UEFA competitions.

[centre mid]

Yes but these competitions are invitational eg Uefa invite the English FA to submit 4 teams to the Cl, Its up to the FA to decide who goes forward, now 99 times out 100 its you league position that decides that which is fine, but i remeber one year in spain the Spanish FA promoted a team to the CL that failed to make it on league position

[pineapple stu]

Real Madrid, I think that was, who won the European Cup and finished outside the top four. The Spanish FA kicked Zaragoza out of the competition to fit Madrid. The English FA refused to kick Everton out, and so UEFA were pressurised into changing their own rules.

None of this has any bearing on the Shels case though, as in all cases, the clubs concerned had their UEFA licence.

[BohsPartisan]

Yes but these competitions are invitational eg Uefa invite the English FA to submit 4 teams to the Cl,

I know but the FA's own rules stated it had to be the top four. Since the Everton/Liverpool thing they have changed the rule.

[centre mid]

BP
were getting off track here i used england as an example, the point being that its the Countrys FA that make the rules

[higgins]

It's not the country FA that make the rules.

This has nothing to do with the FAI having the power to make a decision based on how Shels will get on in that competition.

The issue is that Shels will fail the licence unless they pay all backdated wages and tax by the deadline for a UEFA licence. If they fail then the place gets awarded elsewhere.

[John83]

Already covered here (http://foot.ie/showthread.php?t=50187).
Cheers. Could a mod please merge the threads? (Preferably with my more descriptive title!)

[garyderry]

It's not the country FA that make the rules.

This has nothing to do with the FAI having the power to make a decision based on how Shels will get on in that competition.

The issue is that Shels will fail the licence unless they pay all backdated wages and tax by the deadline for a UEFA licence. If they fail then the place gets awarded elsewhere.

but if players win the right to leave becasue there contracts have been broken, then you cannot achieve a licience this season no matter what amount you have in a months time,

Probably a big reason why oily will fight tooth and nail to keep the players long enough to sell them at nomimal values, all it will take is one player winning his case

[passerrby]

the Fai can remove or issue a icence for domistic football however a clean bill of health (financally ) is required to play in european competitions

[Student Mullet]

Does this years license not include handing up monthly accounts? Why are the FAI waiting 'til March to take action?

It's not like the FAI to ignore a problem in the hope that it fixes itself.

[A face]

Can you imagine a situation where another club was in the situation that Shels are now in and Shels come second to that club in the league?

Ollie would be going apoplectic and insisting that Shels be awarded the Champions League place.

Thats actually true

[CollegeTillIDie]

Ultimately a parent association can withdraw permission for one of it's clubs to enter Europe. After all the FAI are the agents of the UEFA in these matters. I remember in the mid 1980's when the top two teams in Bulgaria , CSKA Sofia and Levski Sofia ended up in the Cup Final. There was a riot involving players, club officials and fans. Both clubs were dissolved. The European Champions Cup slot went to the third placed Club. Trakia Plovdiv who were also awarded the League title. It remains their only domestic triumph.

[Partizan]

Ultimately a parent association can withdraw permission for one of it's clubs to enter Europe. After all the FAI are the agents of the UEFA in these matters. I remember in the mid 1980's when the top two teams in Bulgaria , CSKA Sofia and Levski Sofia ended up in the Cup Final. There was a riot involving players, club officials and fans. Both clubs were dissolved. The European Champions Cup slot went to the third placed Club. Trakia Plovdiv who were also awarded the League title. It remains their only domestic triumph.

As far as I know College, Trakia was the communist era name for Botev Plovdiv who did incidentally previously won the Bulgarian League in 1967 (their only championship to date) The 1985 Championship was later awarded to Levski so it is attributed to them and not Botev.

[LukeO]

So in a roundabout way, what you're saying is that if we bring in Communism to Ireland, we can get Shels turfed out of the Champions League? Let the revolution commence so...

[Student Mullet]

So in a roundabout way, what you're saying is that if we bring in Communism to Ireland, we can get Shels turfed out of the Champions League? Let the revolution commence so...That's all Bohs Partizan needed to hear.

Viva la Revolution!!!!!!!

[pineapple stu]

Does Comrade Ollie get sent to the Gulags then?

[BohsPartisan]

Does Comrade Ollie get sent to the Gulags then?

Are you mad? You'd never get any work out of him. No we'l send him to the knackers yard and render his fat to make soap. :cool:

[Hitman]

Does Comrade Ollie get sent to the Gulags then?

He'd have to have a show trial first, it'd only be fair to indulge his love of going to court.

[pineapple stu]

He'd have to have a show trial first, it'd only be fair to indulge his love of going to court.
:D


Are you mad? You'd never get any work out of him.
I don't think gulags were intended to make people work. Just to get them out of the way.

Do you think Ollie would see the irony in having a lit cigarette stubbed out on a sensitive part of his body?

[dcfcsteve]

It's not the country FA that make the rules.

For the record - yes it is.

Each individual FA determines who they will have representing them in European competition, and how those clubs will be selected/nominated. Hence there is a degree of variation between nations on a going basis, and on specific occassions there are huge differences (e.g. the example of Zaragosa losing a Euro slot to let Real in).

That's why the Welsh FA was able to publically declare that they would never again nominate the exile teams playing within the English system to represent them in Europe (though to make doubly sure, they also rig the timing of the Welsh Cup to stop them playing in it anyway... :) )

[dcfcsteve]

Does Comrade Ollie get sent to the Gulags then?

He certainly needs a good boot in the Gulags......

[BohsPartisan]

:D


I don't think gulags were intended to make people work. Just to get them out of the way.


A lot of military hardware was produced in the Gulags.