View Full Version : Kevin Doyle
youngirish
10/01/2007, 10:55 AM
http://www.eleven-a-side.com/acrossthewater/irish_soccer_detail.asp?newsid=25992
I have tbh it annoys me that Doyle who undoubtedly is the best young talent in the Premiership this season and a full Irish international to boot is only apparently worth to other managers around the 5 million mark while the likes of Carrick (average player) is apparently worth 18 million and Walcott a nobody was worth 12 mill all for the single reason that they were England internationals at some level.
Doesn't this sort of sh*t bother people? It's not me being anti-English, the simple fact is if Doyle was born in Walthamstow instead of Wexford then there wouldn't be a serious bid of less than 15 mill for him for the same run of form that he's had at 23. Ridiculous.
bwagner
10/01/2007, 10:58 AM
Its so pathetic
Hargeaves 25 million ....yea right , he had a good world but so did nicky butt in 2002
the hype over english players sickens me
Same way the british clubs rape our eircom league
NeilMcD
10/01/2007, 11:02 AM
Could not give a **** what transfer they go for as long as they are successful and score goals for ireland.
republicofwhite
10/01/2007, 11:50 AM
Dead right youngirish, 5 million is derisory, he was probably worth that before he'd played a Premiership game(Given he was Player of The Championship and capped) and look at the progress since then. I would have thought at least 8 or nine million as valuation alone, let alone a bid. It is true. Hargreaves was unanimously chastised(perhaps justifiably so, I personally never saw anything decent about him) and after 3 or 4 decent performances in a crap team in the world cup he's suddenly in the 20-25 million bracket. English hype. Think Carrick was crazy money, and apparnetly Preston turned down a 9 million bid for that Nugent fella. There is simply no regard for Irish Players and their talents. They still go on as if Cork City are a pub team and that Doyle was something like a UCD Super League player 18 months ago.
gustavo
10/01/2007, 11:54 AM
I dont think that anyone thinks that Carrick is worth 18 million its more that thats what Manchester United had to pay to get him , same with Hargreaves . Reading wont sell him for 5 million its just a starting price
Nobody will pay 25m for Hargreaves.
Reading have turned down 5m bid therefore he valued higher.
English market is far too much over-valued. FFS Watford valuing a player at 9m :eek:
jebus
10/01/2007, 12:18 PM
It's because its Aston Villa bidding that £5 million is being quoted, if United, Chelsea, Arsenal or Liverpool were the team bidding it would start around £10million at least. Everyone knows that Arsenal won't pay stupid money so £10 million would put them off, Liverpool can't afford £10 million, but both those clubs would do business at £5 million and well whether you are Reading selling Doyle, Bayern selling Hargreaves or Man City selling Richards you are going to try to get every penny out of Chelsea and United so you are going to quote huge prices that they will pay in the end
youngirish
10/01/2007, 12:19 PM
English market is far too much over-valued. FFS Watford valuing a player at 9m :eek:
Exactly Ashley Young an English U21 international. He's pure sh*te - 3 goals in 21 games yet his transfer value is apparently 4 million more than Doyle's bid. Ridiculous.
OwlsFan
10/01/2007, 12:44 PM
It's because its Aston Villa bidding that £5 million is being quoted, if United, Chelsea, Arsenal or Liverpool were the team bidding it would start around £10million at least. Everyone knows that Arsenal won't pay stupid money so £10 million would put them off, Liverpool can't afford £10 million, but both those clubs would do business at £5 million and well whether you are Reading selling Doyle, Bayern selling Hargreaves or Man City selling Richards you are going to try to get every penny out of Chelsea and United so you are going to quote huge prices that they will pay in the end
Exactly Jebus. Mourinho has said the minute Chelsea show an interest, the price rockets.
Nothing to do with the player being English: I suppose Shevcenko is English :rolleyes: It's who the buyer is.
magic moments
10/01/2007, 12:49 PM
Nothing at all to do with a player being english although yes they are over priced remember duff went to chelsea for £17million does anybody think he's worth that i don't...
Dr. Ogba
10/01/2007, 12:51 PM
Put it this way, Sheffield Utd have just had a bid of £6 mill turned down by Preston for yer man Nugent who, as far as I know, hasn't even scored as many goals in the Championship this year as Doyle has in the Premiership!
youngirish
10/01/2007, 12:55 PM
Exactly Jebus. Mourinho has said the minute Chelsea show an interest, the price rockets.
Nothing to do with the player being English: I suppose Shevcenko is English :rolleyes: It's who the buyer is.
It's definitely to do with players being English, any other explanation is rubbish. Shevchenko was regarded as one of the best strikers in the world so its unlikely anyone would have got him on the cheap. He still however cost only as much as Rooney when Rooney only had a handful of English caps so that in itself should speak volumes.
Arsenal swapped Ashley Cole for Gallas plus 5 million I think. Gallas is an infinitely better player than Cole. Why then was he swapped for Cole plus 5 million? C'mon man. English players are horrendously overpriced while Irish players are underpriced. Transfer values are often more about the player's nationality than his ability, with English being particularly expensive followed by Brazilians, Italians, Spanish, French etc. It's very rare for a player from a smaller footballing nation to go for a large amount of money yet small nations often produce at least a couple of top players. Anyone who watches football would agree. Maybe it's to do with the marketing value of the players which will be higher for English players than most other nationalities due to their far reaching media and the (unjustified) hype it generates.
NeilMcD
10/01/2007, 12:59 PM
It's definitely to do with players being English, any other explanation is rubbish. Shevchenko was regarded as one of the best strikers in the world so its unlikely anyone would have got him on the cheap. He still however cost only as much as Rooney when Rooney only had a handful of English caps so that in itself should speak volumes.
Arsenal swapped Ashley Cole for Gallas plus 5 million I think. Gallas is an infinitely better player than Cole. Why then was he swapped for Cole plus 5 million? C'mon man. English players are horrendously overpriced while Irish players are underpriced. Transfer values are often more about the player's nationality than his ability, with English being particularly expensive followed by Brazilians, Italians, Spanish, French etc. It's very rare for a player from a smaller footballing nation to go for a large amount of money yet small nations often produce at least a couple of top players. Anyone who watches football would agree. Maybe it's to do with the marketing value of the players which will be higher for English players than most other nationalities due to their far reaching media and the (unjustified) hype it generates.
I think in both cases age rather than nationality was the reason for the price difference.
youngirish
10/01/2007, 1:01 PM
Gallas is only a couple of years older than Cole so that hardly should come into it.
magic moments
10/01/2007, 1:03 PM
to be honest don't think chelsea had much choice in selling gallas but i know for a fact chelsea fans would rather have kept gallas than bring in cashley cole of course arsenal got the better deal.english players are overpriced but then again it also depends who the buyer is
put it another way was he really worth 70,000 grand odd a few months back?
I applaud what Cork have done with O Donovan - say it loud and say it clear - pay the fcking value england or fck the fck off you racist anti Irish barstards
livehead1
10/01/2007, 1:31 PM
put it another way was he really worth 70,000 grand odd a few months back?
I applaud what Cork have done with O Donovan - say it loud and say it clear - pay the fcking value england or fck the fck off you racist anti Irish barstards
your just a bigot!
Royal rover
10/01/2007, 1:38 PM
put it another way was he really worth 70,000 grand odd a few months back?
I applaud what Cork have done with O Donovan - say it loud and say it clear - pay the fcking value england or fck the fck off you racist anti Irish barstards
A little harsh but true, i think this only the begining of an eircom league exodus,does anyone think the likes of Crowe or Byrne would have any impact at championship level.
On what evidence do you think there will be an exodus?
cavan_fan
10/01/2007, 1:50 PM
There is a huge overvaluation of English players, but this is actually hurting the England team. The reason that Wenger buys foreign players (and to an extent Liverpool is the ridculous valuation.) I would say that 5 million for Doyle in a European sense is not far off at this stage. If you compare it to prices for English players it is far too low.
bwagner
10/01/2007, 1:54 PM
wws is not a bigot , the english and scottish clubs have been taking the **** when it comes to eircom for decades its a joke!
offering 70,000 for a player that you know to be the real deal
offering significantly less for a player who could be even better
than making a joke about having a few pints of guinness
than valuing said player at 5 mill plus.....
when he has not shown any qualitative improvement in the interim
thats borderline racisim
read the chapter in Paul McGraths book about his sale to United
instructive about the attitude of teh english to their dealings with Irish clubs
plus ca change
gustavo
10/01/2007, 2:04 PM
Exactly Ashley Young an English U21 international. He's pure sh*te - 3 goals in 21 games yet his transfer value is apparently 4 million more than Doyle's bid. Ridiculous.
It's market forces lads , ye shouldnt be given out about the players , English teams tend to be well off so they dont need to sell their players on the cheap hence the price one would have to pay for these players goes up , If Watford were crippled with debt he would go for a lot less than 9m . Oh and he isnt a striker so your 3 goals in 21 games thing is irrelevant.
galwayhoop
10/01/2007, 2:04 PM
i hope this isn't a new trend developing:
eircom league season ends before christmas - players are out of contract - english lg 1 , championship and SPL clubs raid ireland for cheap talent during transfer window!!
galwayhoop
10/01/2007, 2:05 PM
read the chapter in Paul McGraths book about his sale to United
instructive about the attitude of teh english to their dealings with Irish clubs
plus ca change
whats the overall jist
The reason Cole went to Chelsea for Gallas and 5million is because Gallas was refusing to play for Chelsea anymore and was threatening to run down the last year of his contract, which also lowered his price tag. Arsenal refused to do business with Chelsea over Cashley unless Gallas was part of the package. Considering Cole's initial evaluation was 25million a lot of people thought Arsenal got the short end of the straw in taking 5million and a player they could have for nothing a year down the line.
I'd equate Doyle's evaluation with that of Andrew Johnson to be honest. Both have proven they ae better than Championship quality, both have a good return in the Premier, and both have minimal international experience. Johnson's valuation was 8.5million, so thats what I'd put Doyle's at, which is what Villa or any other club will probably have to part with to get him, so......what's the problem?
gustavo
10/01/2007, 2:07 PM
Its up to the Irish teams to reject the low bids , English teams are only offering these low amounts because they know in the past such low amounts have been accepted.
Its up to the Irish teams to reject the low bids , English teams are only offering these low amounts because they know in the past such low amounts have been accepted.
doyles was due to a contractual clause which triggered his sale - according to reports
dillons was due to the pressure shels are under - in most ordinary cases from now on the figures should be 6 figure deals....and rising
doyles was due to a contractual clause which triggered his sale - according to reports
dillons was due to the pressure shels are under - in most ordinary cases from now on the figures should be 6 figure deals....and rising
You're joking right? Six figures and rising for players from a part-time league, the vast majority with no international experience, and most without any European experience either? You'd be lucky to get a hundred grand for a player like that off a club with a bit of sense. If irish clubs don't like it than don't sell the player, English clubs will soon head off to Norway or Sweden instead if they are constantly being rejected
cavan_fan
10/01/2007, 2:22 PM
offering 70,000 for a player that you know to be the real deal
offering significantly less for a player who could be even better
than making a joke about having a few pints of guinness
than valuing said player at 5 mill plus.....
when he has not shown any qualitative improvement in the interim
thats borderline racisim
Oh come on, Doyle has made 2 significant steps forward since leaving Cork, firstly proving himself in the Championship then in the Premiership. There were many people (myself included) who thought he could be another Stephen Elliot and fail in the Premiership. Do you really think there is some cosy cartel of English clubs agreeing to pay peanuts for Irish players? If anyone had thought he was worth significantly mroe than 70K then they'd have oubid Reading. If you compare it to what you would pay for a player from a Norwegian club who had no International experience, it's not an unreasonable amount.
galwayhoop
10/01/2007, 2:23 PM
the fact we are a smaller league will definately keep the value of our players down - as an example both celtic and hearts have been chasing this so-called 'new hagi' from romania (he's meant to be the real deal). both clubs mad keen to sign him and both offered contracts ... the fee €125,000.
if eL clubs can get close to the €500k that cork are supposidly looking for o'donavan then that is about as much as we can expect at this moment in time for our top players.
IMO it would take many more 'kevin doyle type' impacts to change that opinion of value.
Oh come on, Doyle has made 2 significant steps forward since leaving Cork, firstly proving himself in the Championship then in the Premiership. There were many people (myself included) who thought he could be another Stephen Elliot and fail in the Premiership. Do you really think there is some cosy cartel of English clubs agreeing to pay peanuts for Irish players? If anyone had thought he was worth significantly mroe than 70K then they'd have oubid Reading. If you compare it to what you would pay for a player from a Norwegian club who had no International experience, it's not an unreasonable amount.
your living in dreamland
a player has a worth
its immaterial what nationality, league, blah blah blah he plays in
doyle was not paid what he was worth
and for the record he was a player with european experience who had already faced better oppossition than that afforded by the English championship.
its an inferiority complex that would even consider rating any top 5 club Irish player as worth less than 100,000
jebus, it was wrong with Paul McGRATH, it was wrong with Kevin Doyle, it was wrong with Long, it was wrong with O Callaghan - people like you just dont understand that you pay for the player.
these player ARE worth more
AND imho o dONOVAN would do a cracking job in England or for any top club willing to take the "risk"
Quote from Damian Richarson in todays Sun:
We have to educate english clubs. Kevin Doyle left cheaply because of a clause in his contract and that has done eircom League clubs no favours as English clubs believe they can pick players up cheaply....
galwayhoop
10/01/2007, 2:40 PM
we have to educate ourselves first - why was that clause in it in the first place!
our league / clubs have to place more value on our players first if we expect english / scotish clubs to do it. if players are regulary out of contract at the end of season then there is very little value placed on their contract and therefore the transfer is going to be low.
we have to educate ourselves first - why was that clause in it in the first place!
our league / clubs have to place more value on our players first if we expect english / scotish clubs to do it. if players are regulary out of contract at the end of season then there is very little value placed on their contract and therefore the transfer is going to be low.
because of Colm's hero. See other thread re a fat englishman from galway
cavan_fan
10/01/2007, 2:53 PM
your living in dreamland
a player has a worth
its immaterial what nationality, league, blah blah blah he plays in
doyle was not paid what he was worth
and for the record he was a player with european experience who had already faced better oppossition than that afforded by the English championship.
its an inferiority complex that would even consider rating any top 5 club Irish player as worth less than 100,000
jebus, it was wrong with Paul McGRATH, it was wrong with Kevin Doyle, it was wrong with Long, it was wrong with O Callaghan - people like you just dont understand that you pay for the player.
these player ARE worth more
AND imho o dONOVAN would do a cracking job in England or for any top club willing to take the "risk"
Of course looking back Doyle was a bargain for Reading, but that is hindsight. There are plenty of players who go to England and dont make it.
The sad truth is that most English clubs see Irish players as being unproven. They are assessing them on potential alone. This is always a risk.
I agreee a player has a worth, but it not based directly on their skill, experience or anyhting else. It is solely based on what clubs are prepared to pay and what price a club is prepared to sell at. In this instance no-one else was bidding and Cork had to sell.
I'm confused with the 'Enlgish clubs are racist' line. There's not exactly a huge line of clubs from other countries coming to buy Irish players. If anything English clubs are prone to preferring Irish players over other nationalities, hence the large number of Irish players in the Premiership.
galwayhoop
10/01/2007, 3:04 PM
because of Colm's hero. See other thread re a fat englishman from galway
i would of called him a fat galwayman from england myself!!
cheifo
10/01/2007, 3:21 PM
Rooney will proably prove to be worth his extravagant fee but Stevie G and Rio Ferdidand are overvalued IMO.
youngirish
10/01/2007, 3:34 PM
The sad fact of the matter is that at the same time as Doyle an Irish U21 international was signed for 70 grand Lita an U21 English international was signed from Britol City for a million. Of course it's to do with the nationality. Anyone saying otherwise is either a) English or b) Insane.
As for Ashley Cole being worth 25 million and Arsenal making a loss selling him for Gallas plus 5 mill. Pure English media nonsense. Why is he worth 25 million? If he is worth 25 million Gallas (A World Cup finalist and European Championship winner) shouldn't have went for 50 million or less. As for Gallas refusing to play for Chelsea, Cole was also causing trouble at Arsenal at the same time and wanted a move away so it was like for like.
I also wouldn't even compare Andy Johnson to Doyle. Johnson is another example of overrated English mediocrity hyped up to something it isn't. Doyle already has more goals in the Premiership than he scored in his first season minus all the penalties he took. Also Doyle is younger and was Championship player of the season. If Johnson sells for 8.5 million Doyle should be at least be worth 12 which he could easly demand if he was playing in the White of England instead of the Green of Ireland. Fact.
tetsujin1979
10/01/2007, 3:49 PM
The sad fact of the matter is at the same time as Doyle an Irish U21 international was signed for 70 grand Lita an U21 English international was signed from Britol City for a million. Of course it's to do with the nationality. Anyone saying otherwise is either a) English or b) Insane.
It had nothing to do with Doyle's nationality, it had everything to do with the escape clause in Doyle's contract.
youngirish
10/01/2007, 3:56 PM
It had nothing to do with Doyle's nationality, it had everything to do with the escape clause in Doyle's contract.
Doyle a) Would not have gone for anything near 1 million with or without an escape clause and b) only had such an escape clause because Cork probably thought that no one would pay over the odds to get him.
eirebhoy
10/01/2007, 4:00 PM
I also wouldn't even compare Andy Johnson to Doyle. Johnson is another example of overrated England International.
I actually think Johnson is very underrated. He certainly was before joining Everton anyway. All his peno's, bar 1 or 2, were won by himself anyway and this season he doesn't take them. I personally think he's an excellent player and better than Jermaine Defoe.
Doyle a) Would not have gone for anything near 1 million with or without an escape clause and b) only had such an escape clause because Cork probably thought that no one would pay over the odds to get him.
Should Reading have paid Cork an extra few hundred grand for the sake of it? If teams can get EL players for cheap it's up to the Irish clubs to increase the prices.
tetsujin1979
10/01/2007, 4:11 PM
Doyle a) Would not have gone for anything near 1 million with or without an escape clause and b) only had such an escape clause because Cork probably thought that no one would pay over the odds to get him.
My point is valid - the transfer fee paid was due to the clause in his contract. If he was Norwegian, Dutch or French it wouldn't have mattered, he was available for 70,000 so Reading took a chance on him.
Doyle a) Would not have gone for anything near 1 million with or without an escape clause and b) only had such an escape clause because Cork probably thought that no one would pay over the odds to get him.
wrong and wrong
Doyle would not have signed his previous contract extension without the clause. If the clause was 300k or something I don't think would have been so bad. The club has learned from this & played hardball on other top players contracts since. We did at least manage to get 10% sell on clauses into Doyles & Longs contracts.
Ipswich have had O'Callaghan for 2-3 months already on trial while we paid his wages. They know what they getting now & soem quotes suggesting he'll be part of matchday squad straight away. If they up their bid by 20-30k deal will be done. Theres a quote from Magilton too where he says would have been interested in O'Donovan until he saw other clubs also sniffing around & he'd miss out of snatching him for a bargain.
Shels don't have a choice now but selling Dillon for pittance won't help their chances in future years of getting decent transfer fees. Its a balancing act but the next transfer fee will be impacted by what accepted for the previous one.
geysir
10/01/2007, 4:32 PM
Won't a 10% sell on clause on Doyle's contract take some of the sting away?
Won't a 10% sell on clause on Doyle's contract take some of the sting away?
Yes.
There was no onus on Reading to add this but I think City got it added to assist a quick deal. Reading knew a few other clubs sniffing around at that time. Sell on clauses no lose when buying at low prices as if sell on at high price just means have to share some of the profit...
Billsthoughts
10/01/2007, 6:30 PM
plus ca change
surely nobody who speaks french could be classed as a bigot????????????
Fergie's Son
10/01/2007, 7:18 PM
So much emotive nonsense in this thread. Really, are we in the 21st century or is it back to "poor old Ireland" and "prefidious albion".
Let's put this into perspective.
1. A lot of English players may indeed be over-valued. I put this down to the fact that a lot of clubs want English players because their main market is England. Put another way, many English fans want to see English players play for their local team. Not an unreasonable position. This has led to price-inflation vis-a-vis English players.
2. The English leagues are a business pure and simply. They will pay the least amount they can for the best assets. If that means they can strip-mine smaller leagues like the EL or a Swedish league then they will do so. That's not racist that's just good business.
3. The EL is too incompetant and too small of a league to do anything about this. In essence, the clubs are so badly run that they'll take whatever they can get. It isn't racist for English clubs to make low-ball offers, it's just good business.
4. Lastly, the English league is still a competitive market. Villa made an offer of 5M for Doyle and it was promptly rejected. Martin O'Neill is Irish so is he now racist against his own? No he isn't. He chanced his arm on the basis that maybe Reading would be willing to part with Doyle now that Lita is on fire. Again, it's business. Stop making into something it isn't just to push your own agenda.
2. The English leagues are a business pure and simply. They will pay the least amount they can for the best assets. If that means they can strip-mine smaller leagues like the EL or a Swedish league then they will do so. That's not racist that's just good business.
.
read coppells comments
read atkinsons comments to the irish manager who sold him mcgrath
in my book its a condascending/patronising - as close to racist as you like.
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