View Full Version : Indo story on new league
dcfcsteve
12/12/2006, 12:08 PM
2) If you don’t think the process is a farce try and explain it to a barstooler or GAA head.
It's dead easy to explain :
- Irish domestic football is essentially sh!te, as you know my barstool loving friend.
- It's current structure, facilities and administration are perpetuating its sh!tness.
- If left to sort itself out through the usual on-field criteria, it may never make the changes in facilities, structures and support that are required. Irish league football has been failing to upright the collapsed ship on its own for years now.
- The FAI therefore introduced a one-off exercise to aid that process.
- A mixture of on-and-off field criteria have been used to determine which teams in the league are best located, structured, funded and performing to operate at the highest level.
- The top ranking 12 teams from that process will be recognised for their efforts by being awarded a place at the highest level for season 2007.
- From then on, the usual rules of promotion and relegation will apply.
- This selection process is being supported through increased prize-money and central investment in facilities and staff in order to further boost the facilities and structures in the league.
- Essentially it's Irish league football's last chance to sort itself out. The FAI is assisting it to do so - but not without seeking to first address some of the fundamental problems that were holding it back in the first place.
I would suspect that the average person who currently knows or cares little about the EL would see the above broad process as eminently sensible.
Dodge
12/12/2006, 12:13 PM
That might reflect your motivation in buying a paper, but that doesn't make it reflective of everyone else !
By their very nature, TV/Radio/Internet only run with a relatively small number of key top stories. If you want a broader vioew of the news, you have to resort to papers. And that's before we even get onto the virtual dependency of loads of towns and areas on their local newspapers....
People who want opinions over news read tabloid rags. People who want news and opinion clearly delineated buy the traditional broadsheets/'quality' press'. The 2 styles of journalism are easily demarcated in that way, and should remain so.
As usual Steve, you've taken it all far too literally and not shown one ounce of common sense. Obviously there are different rules for local and national newspapers but, honestly, when was the last time you read about some news item in a newspaper first (i.e. before TV, radio or internet onformed you?). Reading opinions does not automatically mean you must take them on board and every single broadsheet pays top wages for their political (and other areas) analysts and commentators so you can get down from your high horse on the broadsheet/tabloid debate.
Sales figures are down worldwide for all types of newspapers, the reasons are as I've outloned above. There's wall to wall news coverage in every other medium and newspapers now have to provide new services. Opinions is a small peice of that (not the main factor obviously)
And you think that newspapers have greater scope for news than the internet? :rolleyes:
It's dead easy to explain :
- Irish domestic football is essentially sh!te, as you know my barstool loving friend.
total rubbish - the only external objective measure - european competition - provides evidence of a gradual increase in playing standards when compared to our european peers - the graph is up
- It's current structure, facilities and administration are perpetuating its sh!tness.
yes, deffo
- If left to sort itself out through the usual on-field criteria, it may never make the changes in facilities, structures and support that are required. Irish league football has been failing to upright the collapsed ship on its own for years now.
its effectively a rebranding (it wont lead to any facilities being improved on its own)
- The FAI therefore introduced a one-off exercise to aid that process.
- A mixture of on-and-off field criteria have been used to determine which teams in the league are best located, structured, funded and performing to operate at the highest level.
but includes shelbourne and other rogue operators who may even go bust a la dublin city next season!
-
The league has made dramatic progress in the last three years or so and will continue to do so under the FAI league, in my view. It has not been in such a healthy state in three decades or so, arguably.
Dodge
12/12/2006, 12:25 PM
The league champions of the past twos easons have been hit with 4 winding up orders between them. The facts disagree with you JW
Shels seem a somewhat exceptional case though Dodge with an exceptional character running the club. Practically every European league has a club in financial trouble. That can't detract from the progress that has been made.
pineapple stu
12/12/2006, 12:33 PM
Ah now JW - I think you're letting your marron tinted glasses get in the way again.
I read the article - nothing particularly remarkable in it at all really. You complain that he uses words like "sadly", but then fail to note the context, which was along the lines of "sadly, the new league couldn't dawn without the usual bickering", etc - which is fact. It is sad that the FAI can't do something like this without bickering from clubs. He proposes a solution - i.e. reveal the breakdown - and then notes that the FAI have rejected this solution with a typically don't-care comment from Delaney - "We can't be going around revealing how clubs scored."
Can't believe there are still people who think this whole process is going to improve the league significantly.
And pete - a poll was carried out here when the jist of the proposal was made public at the start of the season. Support was somewhere in the 30% region.
I think the distinction between "playing standards" (which have improved immeasurably over the years - and sky rocketed in the last 5) and off the pitch standards or structures has to be made
off the pitch is a disaster for all clubs as players are paid disproportionately to the income they're efforts are capable of generating
unfortunately some barstoolers and some journos (Mr The League is a Farce) confuse the two continually
we've never had it so good
Pineapple stu
Please stop accusing me of talking through maroon-tinted glasses. I'd be the first one to say we didn't deserve our place in this league if we were run as badly as we were under older administrations.
Also, the fact that Daniel actually wrote this as an opinion piece pretty much backs up what I said, even if it clearly wasn't his fault.
pineapple stu
12/12/2006, 12:51 PM
You've clearly over-reacted, and your quotes are selective and have been largely debunked earlier in this thread. There is consternation, there is controversy, there is suspicion, there is a solution, it's been waived. The piece may be an opinion piece, but it is an accurate enough opinion piece, and the views have been echoed here numerous times by fans of numerous clubs, so they're clearly opinions which are held by many people. What more do you want?
What more do you want?
It not to be presented as a news story.
pineapple stu
12/12/2006, 12:56 PM
That's also been covered elsewhere. If you can't tell the difference between news and opinion - or don't expect both in a newspaper - you shouldn't be reading the paper.
In addition, it's fact that it's sad this couldn't be done without acrimony, it's fact that Dundalk and Waterford were very angry, it's fact that a Golden Ticket went west, it's fact that there's suspicion.
Good thread this. :)
Casey and Delaney refused repeated requests at après conference yesterday to elaborate on how the various scores had been arrived at, insisting the detail would be communicated to the individual clubs who could then to decide whether they wished to make the explanation public.
Interesting. If the clubs who didn't make it (or even those that did) want to prove their case, they can make the precise criteria and scoring public when they receive them, and then we can all decide who's right and who's wrong.
Assuming of course that Dundalk / Waterford are capable following up on their dissatisfaction in a coherent way, and also assuming that Galway are so proud of their cracking five year plan that they'll share it with the rest of us. What odds?
If you think it's grand to pass off opinion as news and vice-versa, you've very low standards of what journalism should be, Stu.
If you think it's grand to pass off opinion as news and vice-versa, you've very low standards of what journalism should be, Stu.
How did he/they try and pass it off as anything other than an opinion piece?
BohsFans
12/12/2006, 2:12 PM
Dundalk won the promotion/relegation playoff but arent promoted. It is a farce.
It was never called that :rolleyes:
They the eircom League Play-off. No one ever said they you gain promotion for winning it.:rolleyes:
There is no reference whatever to "Opinion", "Bootroom" or anything like that. Show me their news story on the actual event.
Couldn't all this have been put in the main thread?
So you want them to put a big shiny tneon sign on it saying its an opinion. FFS JW... You read it and knew it was an opinion, what makes you think any other reader thought differently.
Oh and BTW in now way am I defending the Indo or their editors, just pointing out how completely OTT you're going on this.
Jebus - maybe, but not big a deal its not, is it?
So Dodge, you deem it acceptable for there to be no news story at all on a matter of such importance?
It doesn't matter what I think: thousands of people will form a view on this matter without knowing much about it because of reading this Indo piece and seeing the rather biased RTE reports yesterday.
So Dodge, you deem it acceptable for there to be no news story at all on a matter of such importance?
It doesn't matter what I think: thousands of people will form a view on this matter without knowing much about it because of reading this Indo piece and seeing the rather biased RTE reports yesterday.
Rather biased? JW I'll ask you this. If you were a Liverpool fan living in Dublin who has no interest in League of Ireland football at all (you know the type of fan this new league is supposed to attract), and you heard that the team who finished 2nd in the 1st Division and won a playoff against the club that finished 2nd last in the Premier was replaced by a team finishing below them in the 1st Division because the other club 'have more potential', than wouldn't you think it was a crock of ****? How else do you expect the media to dress this up to make Galway look like they got to the Premier fair and square?
jebus,
There's obviously no point debating this matter with you any further.
So Dodge, you deem it acceptable for there to be no news story at all on a matter of such importance?
It doesn't matter what I think: thousands of people will form a view on this matter without knowing much about it because of reading this Indo piece and seeing the rather biased RTE reports yesterday.
And you're not at all biased in only complaining now? The indo is a rag and couldn't care less about this league. That doesn't mean that McDonnell's piece was incorrect or unjust. You disagree and IMO the only reason for that is that Galway got promoted through the system he attacked.
I don't read the paper very often and can't say I've seen anything as blatant as this in it recently. You're wrong to suggest that I am making a big deal about it as a Galway fan. Given that I work in this field, I find it pretty alarming that a paper would get two pieces off a journalist (one opinion and one news) and ditch the news one in favour of passing off an opinion piece as news.
To be fair, you're not defending the paper altogether.
jebus,
There's obviously no point debating this matter with you any further.
Why not? Because you can't answer that question? jesus christ why do you post this stuff if you're unwilling to take questions on it JW. Seriously what would you have had RTE and the media do about this? It sounds like nonsense in the paper because this whole process was nonsense. I'm 100% sure if you go out on to the street now and pull 10 non-LoI fans and tell them what has happened in an unbiased manner at least 9 of them will laugh in your face for supporting LoI in the first place. This whole thing has made a farce out of our league and you lot are clapping each other on the back about it
I'm 100% sure if you go out on to the street now and pull 10 non-LoI fans and tell them what has happened in an unbiased manner at least 9 of them will laugh in your face for supporting LoI in the first place.
Well if they'd laugh at you in the first place, chances are they'd laugh at you in the last place regardless.
I'm much less skeptical about the new league than other people seem to be, for all that I'm no defender of the FAI. The Dublin City debacle and the points deductions, non-deductions and low-fat deductions were of much more damage than this. The barstoolers and so on who think what happened yesterday was a joke don't know the facts of the matter. I doubt they knew the first thing about the assessment until yesterday. Were they barking about it 18 months ago?
Well if they'd laugh at you in the first place, chances are they'd laugh at you in the last place regardless.
But they'll be laughing harder at you now. Seriously I've had quite a few texts from people I've tried to persuade to get into watching Limerick FC laughing at the thought of watching this league. And again I'll state that this new set up was put in place to attract these 'barstoolers' and it has failed to do so, and will fail to do so in future, hence the whole process is a failure.
Were they barking about it 18 months ago?
Does that matter? They are barking about it now, and now is when we are meant to be launching this new league to win them over
Personally I dont think that many people would be that intersted in the article. I mean, when was there ever a good article about our league in that rag, they never cared about the league and a massive percentage of there reader dont either. My ould fella read it this morning and all he said was "that writer is from louth anyway" and laughed!! Dont worry about it, JW. Those readers would have then read something about Man Utd and forgotten about it straight away!
Oh right Johnny. You're after Journalistic excellence.
I'm glad you clarified that because I was making the mistake of putting your post down as a bitchy and jealous rant against a former mate that landed a big gig.
Stephen
I'm still well in contact with Dan, met him recently. I honestly thought you were better than garbage like this.
Student Mullet
12/12/2006, 5:58 PM
It often happens in the sports pages that there's only one article on a particular subject and opinion and news have to get mixed together.
A match report will nearly always contain the news of scorers and players along with the journo's opinion of who played well and what a fair result would be. Add this to the fact that the indo often mixes news and opinion in the rest of the paper and we can't be too surprised at this.
Louth4sam
12/12/2006, 6:18 PM
Stephen
I'm still well in contact with Dan, met him recently. I honestly thought you were better than garbage like this.
Give it a rest GW i didnt see you coming out and complaining when that pure propaganda piece was written about Galway a week ago. Was that a news piece or an opinion piece???
gael353
12/12/2006, 7:33 PM
Couldn't all this have been put in the main thread?
it could have been but someone was trying to lose u :rolleyes:
It's dead easy to explain :
- Irish domestic football is essentially sh!te, as you know my barstool loving friend.
- It's current structure, facilities and administration are perpetuating its sh!tness.
- If left to sort itself out through the usual on-field criteria, it may never make the changes in facilities, structures and support that are required. Irish league football has been failing to upright the collapsed ship on its own for years now.
- The FAI therefore introduced a one-off exercise to aid that process.
- A mixture of on-and-off field criteria have been used to determine which teams in the league are best located, structured, funded and performing to operate at the highest level.
- The top ranking 12 teams from that process will be recognised for their efforts by being awarded a place at the highest level for season 2007.
- From then on, the usual rules of promotion and relegation will apply.
- This selection process is being supported through increased prize-money and central investment in facilities and staff in order to further boost the facilities and structures in the league.
- Essentially it's Irish league football's last chance to sort itself out. The FAI is assisting it to do so - but not without seeking to first address some of the fundamental problems that were holding it back in the first place.
- however, my friend, the results of this miraculous process turned out to be totally insignificant on the league as a whole, yet very damaging to one club while granting another a free leg up. It is likely next year we will be back where we started. Alas the irish leagues last chance to sort itself out has been squandered. Is your stool comfortable? i hope so.
- however, my friend, the results of this miraculous process turned out to be totally insignificant on the league as a whole,
Please explain my this is so. The FAI have picked the best clubs so will have the best possible 12 team package.
Galway United budgetted move to fulltime professional players surely backs this up.
No the best clubs though are they Pete? Using the IAG's points for off the field and this years league placings would've seen Dundalk in the premier. They were ****e 3 years ago and are getting punished
No the best clubs though are they Pete? Using the IAG's points for off the field and this years league placings would've seen Dundalk in the premier.
Can't change the rules now get answer don't like.
The IAG process appears to have been very fair as been no leaks with must be an FAI first. If Delaney was interferring he would have helped out Waterford. I would be critical of the FAI if they scrapped the process when didn't like the result.
Dodge
12/12/2006, 10:33 PM
If its fair, release the full breakdown. Thats all I'm asking for. Until the do that, we can't see why clubs got x or y points. Oh and the people complaining about it now, have always complained about it. Likewise those defending them
Conor H
12/12/2006, 10:44 PM
It's unfair though that Galway be slated for beneffitng from the FAI's criteria.
Good thread though.Personal Insults from the likes of Sduffy ruin it though.That was a sly nasty jibe.Cop on.
Conor H
12/12/2006, 10:58 PM
IMO the very first post in the thread was a calculated insult and an attack on a journalist who wrote a fairly good article on the matter.
No he didn't.He wrote a biased article.It may have had some facts in it but he had words like
"farce,sadly,confusion "etc.
Nevertheless you shouldn't have attcked JW like that.Maybe yee know each other but i thought it was out of line.
Conor H
12/12/2006, 11:06 PM
That's your opinion, Conor and you're welcome to it, but I was very surprised and disappointed with JW's initial post.
Fair enough.
Dr.Nightdub
12/12/2006, 11:18 PM
I've an idea...
At a guess I'd say Daniel reads this forum. We all know Johnny does too. Why don't the pair of them write pieces that they would have submitted to the Nightdub Times as coverage of this story and post them up here? Be sure to mark your entries as "news" or "opinion", guys.
Passive, feel free to join in too. :D
BTW, just as anecdotal prrof of Chicagosaint's point about people's sources of news, I haven't read Daniel's piece yet, but I now know all about it thanks to the internet.
sniffa
12/12/2006, 11:37 PM
Impartiality went out the window when the good people who conducted the report for Genesis decided to travel across west to Galway to discuss something that the rest of us were not privy to.
A year ago.
Oh what Dundalk and Waterford would given to be a fly on the wall then.
OneRedArmy
12/12/2006, 11:43 PM
Impartiality went out the window when the good people who conducted the report for Genesis decided to travel across west to Galway to discuss something that the rest of us were not privy to.
A year ago.
Oh what Dundalk and Waterford would given to be a fly on the wall then.There's a certain amount of truth in this with an added dose of suspicion that was created by Galway fans telling anyone who would listen all season that they would go up regardless of where they finished.
However, the counter-argument is that Genesis went to Galway precisely because they were viewed as one of the best run clubs off the field (they were well into their 5yr plan at that stage). Chicken or egg?
Genesis were invited down to explain to the general public what was going on. You didnt have to be a fly on the wall to know what was going on, all you had to do yourself was either turn up or get your own club to do the same!
Patrick Dunne
13/12/2006, 8:37 AM
Perhaps if Dundalks incompetent officials had actually read the proposals before signing up to them, they would be in the Premier Division today.
endabob1
13/12/2006, 8:56 AM
As all the clubs signed up to this at the begining of the year they knew that their on-field results in 2006 would only play a minor part in their final placement.
The clubs with poor league records for the previous 3 years who had Premiership aspirations foccused their attention on the off-field points knowing that they would be able to make up more ground there than they would in their final league placement, so they would have thrown much more resources at the off-field activities rather than sign more/better players who would have helped their league position.
How then can you say that Dundalk would deffinitely have finished second and beaten Waterford in the play-off? Surely if they knew the size of the on-field gap they like Galway would have been better putting their resources into their off-field activities?
Every club knew the risks and rewards some got it right some didn't.
GuisaSaigon
13/12/2006, 9:00 AM
As all the clubs signed up to this at the begining of the year they knew that their on-field results in 2006 would only play a minor part in their final placement.
The clubs with poor league records for the previous 3 years who had Premiership aspirations foccused their attention on the off-field points knowing that they would be able to make up more ground there than they would in their final league placement, so they would have thrown much more resources at the off-field activities rather than sign more/better players who would have helped their league position.
How then can you say that Dundalk would deffinitely have finished second and beaten Waterford in the play-off? Surely if they knew the size of the on-field gap they like Galway would have been better putting their resources into their off-field activities?
Every club knew the risks and rewards some got it right some didn't.
Exactly, end of story.
Nobody is denying the results, its the process we're unhappy with.
endabob1
13/12/2006, 9:21 AM
Fair enough, but why was the process agreed by all the clubs?
In a hypothetical world if promotion was purely based on league position hypothetically Galway would have spent their money on players rather than infrastructure and hypotheically would have finished in the top 2.
We can't turn back time and while some people may not like it, there's no denying that the clubs all signed up to it so for those who missed out it's a case of getting promoted as quickly as possible. Galways off-field investment may yet cost them beacuse if they were only good enough for 3rd in the first they will need to invest in players quickly or they could well be back there.
WeAreRovers
13/12/2006, 10:16 AM
Trips to both Galway and Dundalk this year - which unfortunately we had the privilege of - would have told you instantly that one is a well-run, progressive club and the other is an amateur hellhole with delusions of grandeur.
From fans, players, backroom staff, stewards to board level, Galway know what they are at. The jax alone in Terryland would put EVERY other club to shame. Their marketing is spot on, they liase with the police and ensure the safety and comfort of large groups of away fans.
In contrast, Dundalk are just about reaching the mid 1970s. Their attitude to opposing players, officials and fans is disgraceful. Board members of another club told me that they had to put up with the exact same nonsense as Rovers did.
Bottom line - it would have taken the IAG roughly 20 seconds to discount Dundalk BEFORE even beginning to look at their 4 year record. And from what I hear, their presentation was a joke. I know of one large professional practice owed big fees by Dundalk. Dundalk's response? Move the debts to another company. :rolleyes:
The mealy-mouthed moaning from Gill et al is pathetic. If they didn't know the criteria, they should hang their heads in shame. if they did, they should shut up and concentrate on winning promotion next year.
KOH
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