View Full Version : Employing black people as toilet tenants is 'demeaning'
NY Hoop
13/12/2006, 1:56 PM
If you can't get a job in Ireland these days at the unskilled level then you clearly too lazy. Every Spar in Dublin is looking for staff.
:rolleyes:
150,000 on the dole in this country. Some of whom get a Christmas bonus:rolleyes:
Pure laziness especially when you consider how many non Irish are here working.
KOH
BohsPartisan
13/12/2006, 4:00 PM
This is typical middle class socialism assuming its some kind of slavery.
Get off your rocking horse Pete. If you weren't a mod you'd be ticked off for that kind of flaming.
BohsPartisan
13/12/2006, 4:06 PM
Of course if they are illegal, they shouldn't be here. They have the option of returning home..
Same way as Irish people who fled the country during the famine had the "Option" of returning home. I bet if you had fled Nigeria and the only option was working in a jacks or going home, you'd work in the jacks.
Add to the famine example Irish illegals in the states all through the last century and this and the Irish government campaigning to make them legal. The level of ignorance towards the issues that face immigrants in this country is astounding at times.
nedder
13/12/2006, 4:38 PM
Same way as Irish people who fled the country during the famine had the "Option" of returning home. I bet if you had fled Nigeria and the only option was working in a jacks or going home, you'd work in the jacks.
Add to the famine example Irish illegals in the states all through the last century and this and the Irish government campaigning to make them legal. The level of ignorance towards the issues that face immigrants in this country is astounding at times.
I'm not ignorant to any difficulties facing immagrants. These people may have applied for asylum which is fair enough. This might be the only type of chance they can get to earn a few bob, as it seems they are self employed to an extent. The guys doing jobs like this are probably much happier doing it than returning home so I for one, don't think they are getting a raw deal. Without knowing how much they make in cash a night, from experience of busy clubs its probably more than minimum wage.
Taking your point a step further, do you think we should have an open door policy to immagrants? The Eastern eurpeans and Baltics have fueled our economic growth over the last 3 years in particular, and are rightly welcomed to this country but would it be right to have a complete open door policy??
BohsPartisan
13/12/2006, 8:51 PM
I don't think things are as simple as open door or no open door. I would be against stopping people from coming here to work full stop. As I pointed out it would be hypocritical to the extreme given our history. What really needs to be done though, is to end the conditions that force people out of their homes to become asylun seekers in the first place. What do I think that solution is? See the Socialism thread. In the case of Nigeria, Shell are major culprits.
Sheridan
13/12/2006, 10:01 PM
Has anyone else noticed that the Indo story which precipitated this thread referred throughout to "toilet tenants?" Unless the attendants involved are locked in the cubicles at night, we shall have to assume that the journalist in question doesn't know the difference between the two words, and his sub-editor was too stupid to notice, presumably because the error wasn't flagged on a spell-check.
nedder
13/12/2006, 10:02 PM
Bohs Partisan, agree on finding a solution on the root cause of the problem.
I'll go read the Socialism thread..though I have to admit i'm not a fan of your politics. I'm open to learning, but I believe that entrepreneurship and hard work should be rewarded. However, I also believe that no one should be sleeping on our street or going hungry.
Ringo
13/12/2006, 10:09 PM
However, I also believe that no one should be sleeping on our street or going hungry.
or sleeping in a jacks if their "toilet tenants":p
BohsPartisan
13/12/2006, 10:26 PM
hard work should be rewarded.
So do I. I don't believe it is though. Last I'll say on this particular subject here. Any further queries in said thread.
BohsPartisan
13/12/2006, 10:27 PM
Has anyone else noticed that the Indo story which precipitated this thread referred throughout to "toilet tenants?"
Are they paying rent on the jacks?
bennocelt
14/12/2006, 9:18 AM
Same way as Irish people who fled the country during the famine had the "Option" of returning home. I bet if you had fled Nigeria and the only option was working in a jacks or going home, you'd work in the jacks.
Add to the famine example Irish illegals in the states all through the last century and this and the Irish government campaigning to make them legal. The level of ignorance towards the issues that face immigrants in this country is astounding at times.
yeah correct
actually my cousin is in the USA, at the moment he is an "illegal", but working hard out there
who gives a flying fcuk where they are from or what their status is, its not like irish people arent accepted in every country in the world
Wasn't always the case. Used to be very unwelcome in some areas. Bit like Nigerians in Ireland really.
BohsPartisan
14/12/2006, 10:09 AM
No Irish, No Blacks.
bennocelt
14/12/2006, 10:11 AM
Wasn't always the case. Used to be very unwelcome in some areas. Bit like Nigerians in Ireland really.
yeah true, but did it make any difference, we still did our own thing and got on with it,and now the irish are everywhere
So Irish people cleaning toilets is cool, black Africans handing out tissue is demeaning? Ok
BohsPartisan
15/12/2006, 9:27 AM
You're missing the point. Possibly deliberatelty. The fact is that the
toilet attendant job is 1. Unneccesary and 2. A race specific employment 3. Paid in Tips.
By the way I've done cleaning jobs and yes it is demeaning. Whats even more demeaning about cleaning jobs is that the majority of cleaners are Women. However at least you get a payslip and your social insurance.
swain
15/12/2006, 12:08 PM
I doubt very much that while doing interviews for bar staff, that management will say "Ok you're white, you can pull pints". "You are black, needless to say you are on toilet duty". It doesn't work like that. As someone already said, it's more often than not the person themselves will ask can they do it with or without payment from the pub and make up the money in tips.
BohsPartisan
15/12/2006, 1:19 PM
Conjecture. Back up your claim that Black people go looking for these jobs.
Its not as if the Pubs hold open interviews and then decide who works behind the bar and who works in the toilet afterwards. You're just obscuring the real points by introducing that ridiculous line of debate.
Lets compare this to Prostitution. You can easilly say that "no-one is forcing prostitutes to be prostitutes". You can say that Prostitutes solicit their services. Yet is prostitution not demeaning to women?
anto1208
15/12/2006, 1:22 PM
You're missing the point. Possibly deliberatelty. The fact is that the
toilet attendant job is 1. Unneccesary and 2. A race specific employment 3. Paid in Tips.
By the way I've done cleaning jobs and yes it is demeaning. Whats even more demeaning about cleaning jobs is that the majority of cleaners are Women. However at least you get a payslip and your social insurance.
Whats demeaning about earning an honest living ?
BohsPartisan
15/12/2006, 1:42 PM
Whats demeaning about earning an honest living ?
Have you ever worked as a cleaner?
while i was in college i work in McDonalds. I cleaned toilets a lot. Its no big deal. No one gave me a tip:( . What about the plumber un-blocking the toilet or the guy in the treatment plant etc?
GavinZac
15/12/2006, 7:38 PM
Lets compare this to Prostitution. You can easilly say that "no-one is forcing prostitutes to be prostitutes". You can say that Prostitutes solicit their services. Yet is prostitution not demeaning to women?
see, now you're doing the demeaning by comparing a toilet attendant to a prodtitute.
Sheridan
15/12/2006, 7:54 PM
Are they paying rent on the jacks?
I've heard of first time buyers being p1ssed on, but this is ridiculous.
CollegeTillIDie
15/12/2006, 10:38 PM
Ok this toilet attendants thread needs a new angle. In 1988 in The Gare Du Nord, in Paris, I saw my first ever toilet attendant in the Gents. It was a woman! My reaction was to imagine how nuts women would go over here if there were male toilets attendants in their toilet!
Ok this toilet attendants thread needs a new angle. In 1988 in The Gare Du Nord, in Paris, I saw my first ever toilet attendant in the Gents. It was a woman!!
Those crazy french!
If migrant toilet attendants complained that would be fair enough. Can't take this serious when do gooders thinking they know best when not consuted the people they think they helping.
If you come to Ireland as an illegal migrant & have few if little english then i am sure you not expecting to start at the top of the ladder. People make their own choices.
BohsPartisan
16/12/2006, 12:26 PM
Typical tory refrain. Anyone with a remotely progressive attitude on anything is a "Do Gooder."
Again to go with the prostitute analogy, the job is not just demeaning to the prostitute but to all women.
On a different note the guys who worked for GAMA weren't complaining about their pay and conditions initially because they were afraid. Victims of child abuse often don't complain out of fear. Does this absolve the abuser? I doubt toilet attendants who are asylum seekers thus not supposed to be working are going to start drawing attention to themselves by complaining. This is solveable by allowing asylum seekers to work at normal tax paying jobs.
This is solveable by allowing asylum seekers to work at normal tax paying jobs.
Better solution to:
- process asylum cases quicker
- public discussion of economic migrant "green cards".
Vast majority of asylum seekers are economic (although given the expense in getting to Ireland have to wonder how poor they are) & not political. We should decide as a country to remove visa system with economic migrant green cards. However may meet resistance from the left as working class job lost to hard working new comers. e.g. Labours stance on emmigration earlier this year.
BohsPartisan
17/12/2006, 3:56 PM
Labour are not Left.
However may meet resistance from the left as working class job lost to hard working new comers. e.g. Labours stance on emmigration earlier this year.
That issue was not about immigration, it was about maintaining rates of pay for all workers be they immigrants or Irish. Well done for completely buying the FF spin there pete.
That issue was not about immigration, it was about maintaining rates of pay for all workers be they immigrants or Irish. Well done for completely buying the FF spin there pete.
Are you sure as seemed like labour was fishing for the 'they took our jobs' vote...
BTW the irish minimum wage is i think 3rd highest in the EU & increasing significantly again soon.
Dodge
18/12/2006, 11:02 AM
BTW the irish minimum wage is i think 3rd highest in the EU & increasing significantly again soon.
You say it like its a bad thing pete
BTW the irish minimum wage is i think 3rd highest in the EU & increasing significantly again soon.
Yes, and there are agreed rates of pay for various trades. Just because a wage is above the minimum, doesn't mean it meets the agreed rate for a specific skill, which is what Labour were getting at. Labour and the Unions were successfully painted as racists by FF/PD and the right wing press when it was about maintaining standards for both Irish and non-Irish workers.
You say it like its a bad thing pete
I think you taking me up wrongly. Its often suggested that ist bad that people on the minimum wage when i just saying its a lot better then other countries. The US is only just over $5. I also approve of recent moves to take minimum wage earners out of the tax net. I think minimum wage should be just that 'a minimum' but no one should rely on that as a career wage.
BohsPartisan
18/12/2006, 3:14 PM
Problem is in a lot of jobs the minimum is becoming the maximum.
Problem is in a lot of jobs the minimum is becoming the maximum.
Example...?
Example...?
Canteen staff in our place. The temp staff pre-outsourcing were on equivalent to permenant staff, now they're being employed on minimum wage if they'll take the work. Also widespread in cleaning and retail. At the moment it's mainly effecting temp staff who have little rights, however Irish Ferries and Doyle Concrete have actively displaced permenent staff.
Canteen staff in our place. The temp staff pre-outsourcing were on equivalent to permenant staff, now they're being employed on minimum wage if they'll take the work...
Whats a fair wage for that work? I've no idea... Who decides?
Student Mullet
18/12/2006, 9:27 PM
That issue was not about immigration, it was about maintaining rates of pay for all workers be they immigrants or Irish. Well done for completely buying the FF spin there pete.You're misrepresenting there a bit Macy, Pat Rabbitt definately said that our friends from the new EU countries should have to apply for a work permit.
The minimum wage is only really acceptable for students and the like. There's no way you could raise a family on it.
You're misrepresenting there a bit Macy, Pat Rabbitt definately said that our friends from the new EU countries should have to apply for a work permit
Which was the case in every other EU country when it was expanded from 15
GavinZac
19/12/2006, 9:27 AM
Which was the case in every other EU country when it was expanded from 15
as a temporary measure that violates the EU constitution they tried to pass, and the existing rules - freedom of movement and all that.
You're misrepresenting there a bit Macy, Pat Rabbitt definately said that our friends from the new EU countries should have to apply for a work permit.
And why did he say that? So that the State could easily confirm they are getting paid the agreed rates!
Whats a fair wage for that work? I've no idea... Who decides?
That's a different question, I was just giving an example of the race to the bottom, where the minimum wage was now becoming the maximum.
GavinZac
19/12/2006, 10:00 AM
That's a different question, I was just giving an example of the race to the bottom, where the minimum wage was now becoming the maximum.
fair wage is decided by the market.
The minimum wage is only really acceptable for students and the like. There's no way you could raise a family on it.
I agree. If you trying to raise a family on the minimum wage you in the wrong job. Minimum wage could be starting wage until get promotion or find something better.
It think with the next increase someone on minimum wage would earn close to 20k a year which while not brilliant better than most countries.
Dodge
19/12/2006, 11:39 AM
Very simplistic view pete. What if its the only job you can get?
What if its the only job you can get?
And your solution for that...?
Then clearly either satisfied with the job or not trying hard enough. Maybe people don't have great education but work hard & are rewarded for that...
BohsPartisan
19/12/2006, 12:53 PM
And your solution for that...?
Then clearly either satisfied with the job or not trying hard enough. Maybe people don't have great education but work hard & are rewarded for that...
Ah Life Liberty and Fruit of the Loom, er... the Pursuit of Happyness.
Yep Pete, Life is just like that new Will Smith Movie. There are opportunities aplenty for everyone. With a bit of hard work anyone can be the next J.P. McManus. The streets of Dublin are paved with gold. We're all either Declanders or Hico's. :rolleyes:
Oh yeah and I'm the Utopian... :p
Yep Pete, Life is just like that new Will Smith Movie. There are opportunities aplenty for everyone. With a bit of hard work anyone can be the next J.P. McManus.
To continue this debate we'd need to return to the capitaism v communism thread...
So somebody on minumum wage is just "not trying hard enough"?
FFS Pete
So somebody on minumum wage is just "not trying hard enough"?
I was following up on the comment that minimum wage for students & part-time work. I said someone who was unhappy with their salary & trying to make a career on a minimum wage should be looking for better job i.e. with more pay.
No country on the planet can set a minimum wage at level need to raise a family at. Typically maybe first job is at minimum wage & then move onto to better position...
I was following up on the comment that minimum wage for students & part-time work. I said someone who was unhappy with their salary & trying to make a career on a minimum wage should be looking for better job i.e. with more pay
But what if the only job they are EVER going to get pays minimum wage and more succintly whats your point Pete?
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