View Full Version : Licensing results out
drummerboy
04/12/2006, 1:38 PM
Have Shelbourne paid the money due re the 3rd winding up order. I think there was a hearing on the 14th of this month. Is this still going ahead.
While it may not look good i don't think licences can be withheld based on winding up orders. The key issue is do Shels have a tax clearance cert? When was this issued & is it currently valid? If Shels have a current valid tax clearance cert then they ok.
To say just because Shels piad the taxman in the last year that they ok makes no sense. If Shels could pay their tax & wages bills they would already have done so. Therefore there would be no arrears.
higgins
04/12/2006, 1:44 PM
I know they're the only two clubs that have defaulted to the extent that a winding up order is issued. Do you really think revenue apply different rules to different businesses?
Yes!
Until Shamrock Rovers went and wiped away 2million worth of debt Revenue were not as worried about us. When that happened they changed their tune.
So one year its ok, next its not ?
What exactly would you propose to include in the licence application to get around the tax problem that invloves winding up orders? You already know that I agree we have problems, I just want to sort them out a different way.
Whats your way ?
If you think rules regarding winding up orders are the way we should sort out EL tax problems then good luck to you.
OneRedArmy
04/12/2006, 2:00 PM
So you know that only Shelbourne and Cork City are the only two clubs who have ever broke that rule ?I don't think there's any reason to believe that after the Revenue special investigations unit targeted the EL clubs (following the Rovers examinership and rumours of certain clubs lax approach to taxation) that any other clubs have breached agreements with the Revenue.
You also mention three large cash payments to the Revenue. Is this correct? I fail to see how winding up orders could come so quickly if all back tax was paid on 3 separate occasions.
Until Shamrock Rovers went and wiped away 2million worth of debt Revenue were not as worried about us. When that happened they changed their tune.
I meant different businesses within the league, as in different clubs. However, what Rovers examinership exposed was the amount of wages being paid as expenses. This lead to a wider revenue inspection, identifying back taxes for most clubs, and agreed repayment schemes for those with arrears. Clubs that are paying these have not had winding up orders, clubs that defaulted have.
So one year its ok, next its not ?
Rovers had a points deduction for going into examinership.
What exactly would you propose to include in the licence application to get around the tax problem that invloves winding up orders? You already know that I agree we have problems, I just want to sort them out a different way.
Whats your way ?
Well for starters no licence should be issued if there is an outstanding winding up order, as this is only one stage before administration.
Winding up orders should have an automatic points deduction for each order issued. The bad publicity it brings on the league, as well as the fact it's a clear indicator of financial mismanagement make it deserving of at least 5 points imo.
My way of dealing with the tax issues is to pay the bloody repayments for arrears and the current taxes. It's not fecking rocket science and most clubs appear able to come to arrangements with revenue that don't involve winding up orders - so punish those that don't.
pineapple stu
04/12/2006, 2:41 PM
So you know that only Shelbourne and Cork City are the only two clubs who have ever broke that rule ?
I find that hard to believe but if that's what everyone thinks then by all means throw it into the club licence application that you have to be clear of winding up orders.
I think there are much better ways to sort it out.
Higgins, Revenue's rules re winding up orders are quite simple. I described them for you on your forum at the time of the first winding-up order. If you can't pay your tax as it falls due, then -
(a) You get a warning notice saying your tax is outstanding. Interest and penalties may be applied.
(b) You can enter into an agreement with Revenue to pay back outstanding tax in (usually) ten payments. They're quite amenable to this, provided there's a proper structure in place to do so. They have been known to re-arrange this debt if necessary.
(c) They start hitting you with winding up orders.
You find it hard to believe that Cork and Shels are the only two clubs to have had problems paying their tax, yet offer no proof whatsoever for this view, while ignoring the proof (i.e. the winding up orders) that they are the only two to have had problems of this severity in paying their tax. Does that not fly in the face of your "Where's the proof?" mantra you trot out every time there's a rumour about Shels?
What "better ways of sorting it out" do you propose? A club is having to sell its ground to pay its tax is not a proper way to do business, and the point of Licencing (among others) is to clamp down on such reckless trading before the club goes under. Shels should not have received a licence while they had a winding-up order pending. End of story.
Rovers went into administration because their fans took over the club, went to Revenue and their creditors with (a) a proposal and (b) a proper business plan to apply going forward. This second is vital to the reason they were allowed go into administration. If the Shels fans grouped together, forced Ollie out and provided creditors with proof that they would operate a tight ship going forward, they too could enter examinership, regroup, and start to recover from where they are. Simple as.
WeAreRovers
04/12/2006, 2:52 PM
Rovers went into administration because their fans took over the club, went to Revenue and their creditors with (a) a proposal and (b) a proper business plan to apply going forward. This second is vital to the reason they were allowed go into administration. If the Shels fans grouped together, forced Ollie out and provided creditors with proof that they would operate a tight ship going forward, they too could enter examinership, regroup, and start to recover from where they are. Simple as.
Spot on but I'll give you any odds in the world that Higgins and co won't be going down the same road. When they approached Ollie the last time, they ended up paying to print his programme for him. Unreal.
KOH
Winding up orders should have an automatic points deduction for each order issued. The bad publicity it brings on the league, as well as the fact it's a clear indicator of financial mismanagement make it deserving of at least 5 points imo.
As far as I know, any creditor owed at least €1,270 can go to the High Court for a winding up order. Most don't because of the huge cost involved in bringing the case but it would make.
You suggest points deductions for winding up orders "issued". Technically, Shels haven't had any issued on them, the Revenue have requested hearings in the High Court at which they would state their case for why the club should be wound up. It's up to the High Court to decide if one should be issued.
passerrby
04/12/2006, 5:24 PM
.
Rovers went into administration because their fans took over the club, went to Revenue and their creditors with (a) a proposal and (b) a proper business plan to apply going forward. This second is vital to the reason they were allowed go into administration. If the Shels fans grouped together, forced Ollie out and provided creditors with proof that they would operate a tight ship going forward, they too could enter examinership, regroup, and start to recover from where they are. Simple as.
yes but rovers had no assets that could be taken againest the liabilities but could shels could lose because of there part ownership of tolka
pineapple stu
04/12/2006, 6:31 PM
Don't think that's too relevant in the greater scheme of things. Imagine if Dublin City went with a proposal to enter examinership and restructure - they'd be laughed out of it, assets or not. The main factor in Rovers securing safety was a pledge to cop on to themselves, demonstrated by kicking out the incumbent board.
Sam Savic
04/12/2006, 7:02 PM
Don't think that's too relevant in the greater scheme of things. Imagine if Dublin City went with a proposal to enter examinership and restructure - they'd be laughed out of it, assets or not. The main factor in Rovers securing safety was a pledge to cop on to themselves, demonstrated by kicking out the incumbent board.
....we also had a large sum from members plus the security of funds from the 400 club.
Poor Student
05/12/2006, 10:45 AM
How long can Limerick go without failing to get the licence until they're expelled from the league?
Lim till i die
05/12/2006, 10:47 AM
How long can Limerick go without failing to get the licence until they're expelled from the league?
Well if we get in on appeal this season that'll be twice :confused:
Hope that has cleared things up for you
I've an awful lot of time for Ucd, don't go ruining it with your logic :p
Ronnie
05/12/2006, 10:49 AM
No expulsion - they can't be considered without a licence, so deemed not to have applied if they have no license.
Lim till i die
05/12/2006, 10:50 AM
No expulsion - they can't be considered without a licence, so deemed not to have applied if they have no license.
More Logic :eek: :mad: :p
Poor Student
05/12/2006, 10:51 AM
Well if we get in on appeal this season that'll be twice :confused:
Hope that has cleared things up for you
I've an awful lot of time for Ucd, don't go ruining it with your logic :p
LTID, that wasn't a narky comment. I meant how long do you have, as in how many weeks to get it right for this season or when is the appeal is that the final straw?
Terry
05/12/2006, 10:53 AM
I think their appeal has to be sent in by the end of this week or next?
Lim till i die
05/12/2006, 10:55 AM
LTID, that wasn't a narky comment. I meant how long do you have, as in how many weeks to get it right for this season or when is the appeal is that the final straw?
My Apologies
Not 100% but I'm pretty sure it's the end of next week
Licencing is a sham, we'll get a First Division one on appeal.
Assuming that is, that someone bothers appealing :o
Terry
05/12/2006, 11:01 AM
Licencing is a sham, we'll get a First Division one on appeal.
Assuming that is, that someone bothers appealing :o
I think so too, LTID. If the FAI are heart set on regionalisation of the clubs they will want Limerick FC to be there next season.
Lim till i die
05/12/2006, 11:05 AM
I think so too, LTID. If the FAI are heart set on regionalisation of the clubs they will want Limerick FC to be there next season.
Indeed
The main issue with our application at the moment is the fact that no ones really sure who (if anyone) going to own the club this season therefore no one actually bothered applying properly first time out
Poor Student
05/12/2006, 11:09 AM
My Apologies
Not 100% but I'm pretty sure it's the end of next week
Don't worry about it. Good luck. I'm looking forward to visiting Limerick for the first time in our promotion campaign in the First next season.;)
Lim till i die
05/12/2006, 11:11 AM
Don't worry about it. Good luck. I'm looking forward to visiting Limerick for the first time in our promotion campaign in the First next season.;)
I'd much rather draw a Premier Ucd in the cup :(
Ronnie
06/12/2006, 8:41 AM
Can someone clarify what clubs did not get a Premier License, there was 5 mentioned but I heard no names.
Magicme
06/12/2006, 8:49 AM
Well we didnt apply for a Premier so Mons are one that didnt get one!
Can someone clarify what clubs did not get a Premier License,
there was 5 mentioned but I heard no names.
First Division Licences awarded to:
Athlone Town
Monaghan Utd
Finn Harps
Kildare County
Kilkenny City
I dont know if we applied for a Premier licence or not.
I thought we would have seeing as we have the facilities etc but then again they knew a while ago
that they wouldnt be in the new Premier so they mightn't have bothered looking for that licence
passerrby
06/12/2006, 10:32 AM
I think you can only pass or fail the licence you apply for, you cant apply for A and get B or vis a vera
sadloserkid
06/12/2006, 12:41 PM
I think so too, LTID. If the FAI are heart set on regionalisation of the clubs they will want Limerick FC to be there next season.
While I hope your right Terry I think that the club have relied on that particular opinion for far too long now. There's an attitude of 'the league needs Limerick' that has sometimes held back real growth. There's no way that a club from a smaller town could have gotten away with treading water for as long as we have.
Lim till i die
06/12/2006, 1:14 PM
There's an attitude of 'the league needs Limerick' that has sometimes held back real growth. There's no way that a club from a smaller town could have gotten away with treading water for as long as we have.
Your second point is of course spot on
As for your first point we both know it's been far more than an attitude that has held us back ;) :ball:
sadloserkid
06/12/2006, 1:18 PM
As for your first point we both know it's been far more than an attitude that has held us back ;) :ball:
For sure but it certainly hasn't helped either. And whatever about the current administration that, if anything, has tried to run before walking, the previous incumbents were quite happy to thread water.
Lim till i die
06/12/2006, 1:20 PM
the previous incumbents were quite happy to thread water.
As opposed to doing what??
Seriously slk, you know more about the circumstances than to come out with stuff like that :ball:
sadloserkid
06/12/2006, 1:24 PM
As opposed to doing what??
Seriously slk, you know more about the circumstances than to come out with stuff like that :ball:
And yet I stand by it. The club made no effort to even improve it's lot at the time and had Danny Drew not emerged nothing would have changed on that score. We had well meaning people with nil vision in charge.
Lim till i die
06/12/2006, 1:27 PM
And yet I stand by it. The club made no effort to even improve it's lot at the time and had Danny Drew not emerged nothing would have changed on that score. We had well meaning people with nil vision in charge.
Nil vision, nil money, nil interest, nil facilities, nils flying all over the place really :ball:
It seems the fact that the club was somehow kept running for the past twenty years is finally coming home to roost :ball:
Waterford United have got a premier licence
(From offical website)
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