Licensing results out [Archive] - Page 2

gael353

02/12/2006, 4:21 PM

Apparantly we will have one by the end of next week at Jackman Park and so should be granted our licence on appeal

name your source, :D i havent heard any of this. i think it was refused not because Limerick didnt get a lease but because the FAI have yet to get a lease and maybe its to pressure glug glug :rolleyes: Fr Joe/John O'Shaugnessy into getting their fingers out

CollegeTillIDie

02/12/2006, 5:05 PM

If Limerick do not make it, will the FAI bother having any new teams in and just plod on with 20?:confused:

steno

02/12/2006, 5:28 PM

Well if they have advertised the vacant position, maybe they might take two teams instead of just one if they get enough applications of course.

sniffa

02/12/2006, 5:53 PM

Shels passed with flying colours.

Limerick didn't.

Kildare rumoured to be struggling.

Interesting post.

Where did you hear this "rumour"?

Either you get a licence or you dont. How could a club be struggling?:confused:

steno

02/12/2006, 6:32 PM

Kildare County qualified for a Premier License in all categories except the stadia. This was because they don't have the required number of seats.
Thats what was said at the player awards.

So they should get a Division one license if that is the case

gael353

02/12/2006, 7:38 PM

If Limerick do not make it, will the FAI bother having any new teams in and just plod on with 20?:confused:

i think limerick not making it would be good news for the FAI. Limerick just isnt waterford :rolleyes:

oriel

02/12/2006, 8:01 PM

My understanding is that the only aspect that stopped Harps getting a premier license is our current lack of seats, which can be easily be remedied if the IAG/FAI were to put us in the premier.

Well if thats the case how on earth have drogheda managed to get a premier licence (again) with less than 300 seats ?

SligoBrewer

02/12/2006, 8:37 PM

it really is the biggest shambles in the world if sels get a license with them owing money left right and centre but then by fai standards...:rolleyes: its a good days work at the office

higgins

02/12/2006, 9:24 PM

Typical Bohs - willfully dim. :rolleyes:

For the 4098249,000000th time - the current owners of Shamrock Rovers were the ones who informed the licencing authority and the FAI about the irregularities in Rovers licence application. I doubt very much whether Higgins will do the same at Shels.

KOH

You actually think I have to tell the good people at the FAI that Shels have a winding up order against them ?

I have a feeling they know that already.

steno

02/12/2006, 9:27 PM

Well if thats the case how on earth have drogheda managed to get a premier licence (again) with less than 300 seats ?

Could it possibly be to due to the fact that FIFA have banned bucket seats?. I don't know I have never been to Finn Harps ground and I am just throwing out a suggestion here.

kdjaC

02/12/2006, 9:36 PM

Shels passed with flying colours.

.

How? :confused: seriously is a Kellogs thing with 8 tokens ??? How the **** can a club that cant pay its players or the Revenue get a licence.

Assume Pats are fine if Shels got one, i know our chairman eats Kellogs Cornflakes.

kdjac

higgins

02/12/2006, 9:37 PM

I could understand in the first couple of seasons of this crap that would allow clubs a Licence on the basis they had 'plans' to sort the issues out. No longer should this be acceptable...

Do Drogheda make the seats requirment ?

If they don't and no matter what plans they have for a new stadium they should be put into the first division.

and before people come on about Shels and their licence, I would put Shels in their with them on the basis that they couldn't honestly have a TCC when they have a winding up order out on them? If they do then someone please explain to me how ?

BohsFans

02/12/2006, 9:46 PM

Could it possibly be to due to the fact that FIFA have banned bucket seats?. I don't know I have never been to Finn Harps ground and I am just throwing out a suggestion here.

What are you talking about? Banning bucket seats? That would only leave terraces open!!:eek:
Drogs have concrete plans to move to a brand new all seater venue and that's enough to get you a license!!

steno

02/12/2006, 9:49 PM

Was looking throught the infrastructure requirements on the licensing document (pg49 in the link). Can't find a seating requirement but still some interesting reading. Will have a better look tomorrow after the FAI cup Final, its late and i'm a bit drunk!http://www.uefa.com/newsfiles/358508.pdf

Celdrog

02/12/2006, 9:51 PM

Do Drogheda make the seats requirment ?
If they don't and no matter what plans they have for a new stadium they should be put into the first division.

Oh the irony!!!! Shelbourne dictating again. Higgins, when you are not in trouble with the revenue and you are able to consistently pay your players then you can question other clubs. Until then stay out of this arguement. Kildare and Craptown are welcome to ask the question

We have been told that after 2007 United Park is not good enough for a Premier division licence. The new stadium plans (which are now concrete) is what gives us this licence.
If the stadium is not ready for the 2008 season, then we will have to play in a different stadium (while still maintaining a premier licence). United Park was up to UEFA standard this season but we would only have been allowed 400 into the matches, so we went to Dalymount

Think about it - how many seats do Rovers have?? 0 or 10,000?

steno

02/12/2006, 9:53 PM

UEFA document appears to be aiming for 2008 alright.

Philly

02/12/2006, 9:58 PM

Just off the phone to a KCFC board member.

We got full marks in four out of the five criteria. It was the saeting and alectrical requirements that let us down. Full marks on youth development, finance etc...

The board member was asked not to announce the license until after the FAI Cup Final which is weird.

He was sympathetic to Limerick but thinks it will be sorted.

As for KCFC, the future looks bright, the future looks black and while... :)

onceahoop

02/12/2006, 9:58 PM

For what it's worth, I was talking to the FAI on Thursday and brought up the licencing farce. They were adamant that it was being properly administered (as I actually agree it is, within its own definition). I mentioned that clubs were going into liquidation, getting winding up orders and failing to pay their players. The FAI noted that licencing had actually brought to the surface the issues which are now being dealt with by the Revenue (honest to God!) and that no club had outstanding payables at all under the definition, which was that (a) a wage had to be outstanding in the end of year audited accounts, (b) consent in writing from the player had to be missing and (c) they were given a year to pay off any such unconsenting outstanding payables. Something ridiculously fudgey like that. Licencing is utterly utterly meaningless. It really is a disgrace.

Stu, I think you've said it all. FAI doublespeak to get them out of a hole with Shels. There are loopholes everywhere to get them (FAI) out of jail. What a f****n joke.

steno

02/12/2006, 10:01 PM

Philly

02/12/2006, 10:07 PM

Well it was in the Star today!

steno

02/12/2006, 10:13 PM

What are you talking about? Banning bucket seats? That would only leave terraces open!!:eek:
Drogs have concrete plans to move to a brand new all seater venue and that's enough to get you a license!!

Thats true sorry wasn't thinking straight. Like I said throwing out a suggestion (a stupid one at that):o

But Finn Harps also have plans for a move to a new stadium.

OneRedArmy

03/12/2006, 3:45 AM

For what it's worth, I was talking to the FAI on Thursday and brought up the licencing farce. They were adamant that it was being properly administered (as I actually agree it is, within its own definition). I mentioned that clubs were going into liquidation, getting winding up orders and failing to pay their players. The FAI noted that licencing had actually brought to the surface the issues which are now being dealt with by the Revenue (honest to God!) and that no club had outstanding payables at all under the definition, which was that (a) a wage had to be outstanding in the end of year audited accounts, (b) consent in writing from the player had to be missing and (c) they were given a year to pay off any such unconsenting outstanding payables. Something ridiculously fudgey like that. Licencing is utterly utterly meaningless. It really is a disgrace.Absolutely correct Stu.

So hypothetically you can have a situation where a club gets a license on a Monday due to having previous years TCC and audited accounts and is then wound up on the Tuesday due to subsequent breaches of regulations.

Just a suggestion, but would it not be an idea to synchronise licensing/financial years ends and the TCC at calendar year end to avoid this anomoly arising?

pete

03/12/2006, 10:14 AM

I think its clear now that little chance of a 22nd team will be joining next season. In fact we'll be lucky to keep the exisiting 21. No non-league team could come up with the licencing requirements in such short space of time.

jebus

03/12/2006, 11:54 AM

First off Gael my source was the always reliable Daily Mirror :o but I assume for Limerick to get a write up in the national press they would have had to have been contacted in regards to this story, and Limerick FC would have then been the ones that leaked the story.

On the Shels debate, well I'm not surprised the FAI have passed them, becuase if I was in charge I would too. The sole reason for this being, that the FAI are trying to market this new league to fans of the English Premier, people who normally don't care a jot about the Eircom League. Now how would it look to them if Shelbourne (who trust me are seen as the biggest club in Ireland to said lay fans) aren't in this new league? That couple with the no promotion/relegation ongoing debacle would probably sink this new league in the minds of the English Premier supporting Irish fan

4tothefloor

03/12/2006, 2:01 PM

maybe its to pressure glug glug :rolleyes: Fr Joe/John O'Shaugnessy into getting their fingers out
What's JOS got to do with it? :confused:

First off Gael my source was the always reliable Daily Mirror :o but I assume for Limerick to get a write up in the national press they would have had to have been contacted in regards to this story, and Limerick FC would have then been the ones that leaked the story.

On the Shels debate, well I'm not surprised the FAI have passed them, becuase if I was in charge I would too. The sole reason for this being, that the FAI are trying to market this new league to fans of the English Premier, people who normally don't care a jot about the Eircom League. Now how would it look to them if Shelbourne (who trust me are seen as the biggest club in Ireland to said lay fans) aren't in this new league? That couple with the no promotion/relegation ongoing debacle would probably sink this new league in the minds of the English Premier supporting Irish fan
Firstly, everything that's coming out of 'Limerick FC' seems to be a load of BS. First the Poles, and where did this local businessman that was also mentioned disappear to? What's going on at the club is both tiresome and a joke. It all points to desperation. There's definately a tv series or book in this, you couldn't make it up.

Regarding Shels, you're right jebus. The FAI are not going to put the league champions and their Champions League representative/hope in the first division. It'd make a joke of the whole thing before it'd have even started. So people are going to have to bite their tongues on this one for the coming season anyway. The proof of the pudding will be in 2008 which is the UEFA target date for all licencing issues to be in line.

higgins

03/12/2006, 8:00 PM

Now how would it look to them if Shelbourne (who trust me are seen as the biggest club in Ireland to said lay fans) aren't in this new league?

Well it might make thing look like they actually do give a flying **** and that they will act on what they say ?

How many fans have walked away over the last few seasons due to all the messing. If the FAI got serious then maybe we would get people to come back.

I've little or no faith in this sytem anymore. They should do as they say and kick clubs out.

higgins

03/12/2006, 8:03 PM

Oh the irony!!!! Shelbourne dictating again. Higgins, when you are not in trouble with the revenue and you are able to consistently pay your players then you can question other clubs. Until then stay out of this arguement.

Do you read full posts or are you selective in what suits you ?

Go back and read my post again before you have a go. NEVER have I claimed Shelbourne were entitled or deserved a Premier Licence and besides, I don't work for Shels or have anything to do with how they conduct their business so my thoughts on Drogheda and their licence are exactly that, MY THOUGHTS....

Peadar

04/12/2006, 8:38 AM

It has been confirmed that Cork City FC were awarded their Premier Licence.

Macy

04/12/2006, 8:38 AM

Mr_T

04/12/2006, 9:41 AM

If Harps were genuinely turned down on the seat issue, yet Drogs got there's based on future plans then thats another major inconsistency. Harps are more advanced than Drogs when it comes to the new ground. (Notwithstanding the fact that 1500 covered seats has actually been a premier division "rule" since the late 90's :rolleyes: ).

Do Drogs have ANY seats? The biggest problem at Harps is that since the Licensing Safety Gurus deemed the few seats we have to be unsafe our seated capacity is zero. If we were promoted (or IAG'ed :rolleyes: ) to the Premier we would have to, and could, install a small amount of temporary seating to satisfy the Premier License and allow us to play in Finn Park till the new stadium is complete.

BrayUnknowns

04/12/2006, 9:49 AM

Drogheda have about 100 covered seats i reckon

passerrby

04/12/2006, 10:46 AM

this whole thread proves licensing is a joke

Magicme

04/12/2006, 10:48 AM

Try telling that to our licensing officer tho Passerby....he works his butt off for it...wouldnt like to be there when u tell him he's wasting his time!! :D

higgins

04/12/2006, 11:01 AM

It really is a farce. Shels getting a licence with an outstanding Winding Up order is obviously the biggest joke. Regardless of whether it will be withdrawn, which can't be a certaintly given it's their 3rd, it shouldn't have been issued until such time as it was revenue withdraw it. However bad it is for the FAI not to issue a licence to their champions, where does it leave the image of the league if they are in administration within weeks of getting one "with flying colours".

Well as it stands Shels got their licence fairly it seems.

You can argue that the licence is not good enough because it allows teams get winding up orders throughout the season and then just before their licence inspection pay up what is required but its hard to put a rule in place when its outside of the control of the FAI as to who gets a winding up order.

You don't know how many clubs are out there that deserve a winding up order ?
It would be silly to suggest that Shels are the only ones around who are not paying tax or who are not up to date, why revenue are chasing them is their business and although they are legally entitled to chase them for outstanding tax they may be neglecting others who in comparison to their budget have a more serious problem with paying tax?

Going on the rules of the Premier Licence financial section what rule have Shels broke now that they are in possession of a Tax Clearance Cert ?

Macy

04/12/2006, 11:10 AM

Try telling that to our licensing officer tho Passerby....he works his butt off for it...wouldnt like to be there when u tell him he's wasting his time!! :D
Sure it's the FAI that are telling him that by giving licences out in the manner they are. The only saving grace is that clubs that properly comply with licencing are ensuring their long term future and sustainability. As a tool of compulsion to make clubs operate in this way, Licencing has been, and continues to be, a massive failure.

Macy

04/12/2006, 11:34 AM

You can argue that the licence is not good enough because it allows teams get winding up orders throughout the season and then just before their licence inspection pay up what is required but its hard to put a rule in place when its outside of the control of the FAI as to who gets a winding up order.
Have they paid up and has the hearing been cancelled? I'm not talking about the past ones, as clearly there is no rule to stop that (even if there should be penalties), rather the current outstanding one that could lead to administration.

I'm sure there are plenty of clubs in arrears with revenue, and paying back on a payment plan. However, are you suggesting that Revenue are on some sort of anti Shels crusade? If other clubs were defaulting, as shown in the Cork City case, they'd be faced with the same treatment from Revenue.

higgins

04/12/2006, 12:24 PM

Macy I don't know if anyone is 'out to get' Shels but I'd imagine Shels of all the clubs are in one of the best positions to pay their tax bill. Considering they stand to gain from the sale of Tolka maybe revenue know they can squeeze shels for the money and they are doing just that ?

Maybe it serves no purpose to issue a different club with a winding up order as they are prepared to accept a much more drawn out repayment structure then they would for Shels ?

My main point is that with so many factors involved and a certain amount of discretion from revenue that maybe what rule is being applied to one club may not be applied to the next in regards to winding up orders? To wirte a rule into the rulebook regarding winding up orders you would have to be certain that Revenue are looking on all clubs as equal and applying the same rules in each case and looking at each club at the same time eash season.

Maybe they should rethink the issue surrounding tax and make it more than just about having a TCC, as its shown now that clubs are issued these while under a repayment structure. Bohemians are one other club who have mentioned they were under a repayment structure. Maybe from now on repayment structures should now be allowed, full stop. Everyone should be up to date by the time the next season comes into action and then maybe quarterly spot checks with points deductions for those who don't stay in line?

I don't know what exactly is a fair system but I don't think a rule based on revenues desire to wind you up is fair. Saying they will wind you up could be more of a tactic than an indication you are at the brink of going out of business.

pineapple stu

04/12/2006, 12:33 PM

Macy I don't know if anyone is 'out to get' Shels but I'd imagine Shels of all the clubs are in one of the best positions to pay their tax bill.
That makes no sense at all. If they were in the best position to pay their bill, you'd imagine they'd do so (and pay their players) rather than getting dragged up to cort every other month. It's all well and good having a large asset, but if it's not overly liquid or if it's essential to the running of the club, then you're in trouble.

Well as it stands Shels got their licence fairly it seems.
It does. And that's the whole joke, don't you think?

On the Shels debate, well I'm not surprised the FAI have passed them, becuase if I was in charge I would too. The sole reason for this being, that the FAI are trying to market this new league to fans of the English Premier, people who normally don't care a jot about the Eircom League. Now how would it look to them if Shelbourne (who trust me are seen as the biggest club in Ireland to said lay fans) aren't in this new league?
It isn't as clear cut as relegate them or do nothing. You could dock points as well - the precedent has been set already. Dock them ten points, say - they stay in the Premier, do alright in Europe but they've been given a clear warning to cop on to themselves or they won't be succeeding in the future.

sadloserkid

04/12/2006, 12:41 PM

Lim till i die

04/12/2006, 12:48 PM

Heard Wexford are a good bet to have a new team in the league next season. As for us... I suspect we'll be alright but it won't be lack of trying to commit suicide on the part of some of our incumbents.

Now that's what I call making a mockery of licencing :p

Wexford..... Sources :confused: :)

sadloserkid

04/12/2006, 12:50 PM

Wexford..... Sources :confused: :)

One of the best young coaches on this island, if not further afield. :)

Macy

04/12/2006, 1:02 PM

Maybe they should rethink the issue surrounding tax and make it more than just about having a TCC, as its shown now that clubs are issued these while under a repayment structure. Bohemians are one other club who have mentioned they were under a repayment structure. Maybe from now on repayment structures should now be allowed, full stop. Everyone should be up to date by the time the next season comes into action and then maybe quarterly spot checks with points deductions for those who don't stay in line?
But Shels have had (several) repayment schemes. That's not what got Shels into trouble, it's Shels inability to stick to the repayment scheme that has been the problem. The value of assets has nothing to do with it, and is just a straw clutching exercise looking for an excuse.

higgins

04/12/2006, 1:14 PM

That makes no sense at all. If they were in the best position to pay their bill, you'd imagine they'd do so (and pay their players) rather than getting dragged up to cort every other month. It's all well and good having a large asset, but if it's not overly liquid or if it's essential to the running of the club, then you're in trouble.

They have paid up 3 large amounts of money to the tax man over the last 6 months. This is proof to me that Shels can pay their tax. Why they don't do this before they get the winding up order only Shelbourne know exactly.
Three winding up orders and three payments. Seems to me that it's a 'tactic' used now against shels to get their money and it's worked. I've never ever said that Shels should not pay their tax I only questioned if playing by Revenues rules when it's not clear to everyone what their rules are in regards to winding up orders, may not be the fairest way to do things?

Would you not accept that?

I don't claim the current system is correct either, far from it but to base it all on Revenues calls for winding up would be wrong.

It does. And that's the whole joke, don't you think?

Yes I do think. I have posted it here before, many times! Ive posted it on Shelsweb too, many times. The current system is useless as it stands. The idea is good but theres no great desire from the clubs or the FAI to improve standards.

I know it was attempted before and kind of fizzled out but I'd like to see the FAI in partnership with the government come up with a serious set of rules to be part of the new premier division. Pick the teams that will take a place in this new division and upgrade every single club to the minimum standards required then set them free...

They sink or swim.

higgins

04/12/2006, 1:20 PM

But Shels have had (several) repayment schemes. That's not what got Shels into trouble, it's Shels inability to stick to the repayment scheme that has been the problem. The value of assets has nothing to do with it, and is just a straw clutching exercise looking for an excuse.

so your telling me if Revenue knew Shels didnt have the ability to pay the tax and I mean knew as in 100% sure they couldnt, that we would have seen these winding up orders ?

I'm sure there are clubs in the league today that could not survive a wind up or pay all your tax situation.

All I am saying is that a new rule based on 'If you receive a winding up order the follwoing happens ..................' is not a great idea. There are better ways around the problems than that.

Macy

04/12/2006, 1:21 PM

Three winding up orders and three payments. Seems to me that it's a 'tactic' used now against shels to get their money and it's worked. I've never ever said that Shels should not pay their tax I only questioned if playing by Revenues rules when it's not clear to everyone what their rules are in regards to wonding up orders may not be the fairest way to do things?
It is clear what the revenue rules are with regard to winding up orders. Pay your taxes including any repayment schemes or face a winding up order. What's not clear or fair?

Macy

04/12/2006, 1:25 PM

so your telling me if Revenue knew Shels didnt have the ability to pay the tax and I mean knew as in 100% sure they couldnt, that we would have seen these winding up orders ?
Yes, why wouldn't they? It forces the business into administration and revenue have first call on the assets. What would you expect them to do - let you carry on racking up debts to them?

higgins

04/12/2006, 1:27 PM

It is clear what the revenue rules are with regard to winding up orders. Pay your taxes including any repayment schemes or face a winding up order. What's not clear or fair?

So you know that only Shelbourne and Cork City are the only two clubs who have ever broke that rule ?

I find that hard to believe but if thats what everyone thinks then by all means throw it into the club licence application that you have to be clear of winding up orders.

I think there are much better ways to sort it out.

gufct

04/12/2006, 1:31 PM

Higgins you must be ollie because your reasoning is so rose tinted its off the wall. The revenue will hit shels like a ton of bricks if ollie keeps up his mouthing off in public. I know from my own dealings with the taxman that if you dont play ball with them (ie. welch on previous agreements) they will give you absolutely no leeway the next time this happens.