Rossport Today

[sonofstan]

Watching the police brutally protect the interests of Shell against the people of Erris today was sickening - but more sickening was watching Ireland's most famous 'socialist' equate protecting the interests of your community with criminality and nakedly promising that the state would always protect the interests of business against anyone who dares to put safety and the quality of the environment first. Sickening because he fully expects the country to support him ........ and he's probably right

[Conor H]

They were asked numerous times to get out of the way they didn't.The Guards removed them-proper order.it's not their fault they're doing their job."Police brutality" is a very loose statement.Unfair IMO.

[sonofstan]

So if a cop asks you to get out of the way and you don't, plod has a right to thump you?

[Strabane_Harp]

irish news today showed provisional sinn feins 2 faced approach, supporting the protest but senior local members are currently working for shell on site!

party for the working class my arse!

[Ringo]

The current rent a mob got what they deserved. That teacher drove her car at the guards. As for the others they were warned numerous times. I'm only sorry the same tactics aren't used in Dublin , when the taxi men block up the roads. While everyone has a right to peaceful protest, others have rights too.

[Conor H]

So if a cop asks you to get out of the way and you don't, plod has a right to thump you?

Yes.if you're preventing someone from doing their job and acting as an obstacle on the road the Cop has every right to use physical force.

[onceahoop]

So if a cop asks you to get out of the way and you don't, plod has a right to thump you?

He probably has the right to use all reasonable force if you don't obey a lawful instruction and if that means using his baton then so be it. The workers have the right to go to work. All DEMOCRATIC processes in relation to the Shell/Rossport situation have been done and dusted. The demonstators, if they are democrats, should accept that. Of course a couple of the original 5 are reported to be Sinn Fein members for whom democracy is a bullet in the back of the head or kneecap. Even Enda Kenny the local TD has come out against them which suggests the protesters have little or no suport in the community. The schol principal would be beter of in the classroom than making a fool of herself on the news.

[Ringo]

He probably has the right to use all reasonable force if you don't obey a lawful instruction and if that means using his baton then so be it. The workers have the right to go to work. All DEMOCRATIC processes in relation to the Shell/Rossport situation have been done and dusted. The demonstators, if they are democrats, should accept that. Of course a couple of the original 5 are reported to be Sinn Fein members for whom democracy is a bullet in the back of the head or kneecap. Even Enda Kenny the local TD has come out against them which suggests the protesters have little or no suport in the community. The schol principal would be beter of in the classroom than making a fool of herself on the news.
i note the teacher in question has needed a substitute for 150 days last year.:rolleyes:

[onceahoop]

i note the teacher in question has needed a subsitiute for 150 days last year.:rolleyes:

She was up for been Drunk and Disorderly as well earlier in the year. Failed to turn up for her court appearance. Lovely person to have helping to shape your children.:eek:

[sonofstan]

She was up for been Drunk and Disorderly as well earlier in the year. Failed to turn up for her court appearance. Lovely person to have helping to shape your children.:eek:

So if you're a very nice person who has never broken the law you are entitled not to have a copper baton you, but otherwise you're fair game? Can someone please come back with a real argument, not all this ad hominem stuff?

[dahamsta]

sonofstan is right, it doesn't matter whether you're a saint or a sinner, the same rules apply; and I'm sure a "reasonable force" measure is supposed to apply in these situations. Was reasonable force used, or did a Garda lose his rag, that's the question you should be asking yourselves.

[onceahoop]

sonofstan is right, it doesn't matter whether you're a saint or a sinner, the same rules apply. And I'm sure a "reasonable force" measure applies. Was reasonable force used, or did a Garda lose his rag, that's the question you should be asking yourselves.

True, but when does the Saint become the sinner? When he/she breaks the rules and the Rossport protesters broke the rules when they refused to let the workers go to work an then refused to unblock the road. I caught a piece of a discussion on Marian Finnucane today where a number of commentators who saw what happened said that the Gardai were extremely restrained and that it wasn't a baton charge or anything like it. No doubt it will all be viewed on the video tapes to see who broke the law. BTW have any of our great Socialist politicians been back to Rossport since their political stroke a few weeks ago. I'd suggest that if it was Paris or any where else in Europe there'd be more than a few minor injuries when the Police let loose.

[dahamsta]

True, but when does the Saint become the sinner?I'd suggest trying to grasp the point of a post before you quote and reply to it. First sentence, second and third clauses.

[onceahoop]

I'd suggest trying to grasp the point of a post before you quote and reply to it. First sentence, second and third clauses.

The Gardai are there to enforce the rule of law. If in any given circumstance a person (who otherwise might be of exemplary character) is breaking the law and refusing to allow the gardai to enforce it then he/she has to accept the consequences of their actions. I think I did grasp the point of what was written.

[dahamsta]

You didn't. At all. Let's leave it at that, because it's obvious you're not going to.

[Ringo]

as far as i could see the guards were restrained, they only broke the windows of the van & hit the protesters on the legs

[bennocelt]

She was up for been Drunk and Disorderly as well earlier in the year. Failed to turn up for her court appearance. Lovely person to have helping to shape your children.:eek:

ah come off it, thats a common enuff thing in ireland!

[Macy]

Blocking a road by sit down protest is a peaceful protest. The total heavy handed action of the cops is disgusting, but not surprising. Afterall, we've all seen it before both in Rossport and in Dublin when there's soft pinko's to beat up. Over recent weeks on the news, we've seen protestors already off the road thrown into ditches, people rushed at by lines of cops, and now battens drawn against people legitimately protesting. If this was shell in Nigeria the Government would be falling over themselves to condemn it if it was highlighted in the press.

Aherns support of the states police backing the multinational is hardly a surprise. Niether is the fact that the media never questioned him on his assertion that all the other options have been looked at. Every review has only had terms of reference to look at the safety of this option, not at the option of processing off shore instead. This is the current demand of the Shell to Sea protestors - for a review to exam off shore v on shore. Ahern should be ashamed of himself. I remain convinced there are major skeletons in the FF cupboard over this whole decision, and they are running scared of reopening this file.

As for the rule of law, it's a pity Ahern and McDowell wouldn't show the same committment for upholding it in Moyross or certain Dublin estates. Imagine those areas getting flooded with cops everyday, and how many deaths, injuries, harrassements, intimidations etc could be stopped.

[swain]

as far as i could see the guards were restrained, they only broke the windows of the van & hit the protesters on the legs

And picking a protestor up and throwing him into a ditch giving him head injuries, sickening to say the least, bunch of useless Sean Og's.



As for the rule of law, it's a pity Ahern and McDowell wouldn't show the same committment for upholding it in Moyross or certain Dublin estates. Imagine those areas getting flooded with cops everyday, and how many deaths, injuries, harrassements, intimidations etc could be stopped.

Exactly. The Guards are only interested in giving out tickets for speeding - while scumbags drive at 120 KPH injuring innocent people only to get cosy sentences. It's no wonder the drug barons are laughing at them. If the state gave a damn about it's citizens it could have stopped them long ago, but no they just attack people making a stand against corrupt oil companies with bad safety records.

You have to laugh at it.

[pete]

From the tv pictures it seems like the gardai did use reasonable force.

Could see that the teacher protestor in her van was warned serveral time yet she choose to drive towards the gardai. If I did the same thing on any street i would expect no less.

With regards the baton charge the gardai did look very nervous but could also see that the protestors were warned numerous times to stop blocking the road. They are lucky the gardai did not use water cannons that they used on EU Presidency protestors.

I believe there were some outsiders bused in but numbers seem to be quiet low. The protestors had labelled this a "day of action" & I would think they were happy with gardai action as they got the extra publicity they required.

I agree a sitdown protest can be peaceful but the gardai also have the duty to remove you from the road. AFAIK the only way to do this is to pick you up & lift/drag if resist.

IMO that fella Corduff on the news should be dumped back into jail as he is still in contempt of court. He was lucky Shell asked he be released last time.

[Student Mullet]

I never saw the news the day this all went on. Is there any links where I can see for myself pictures or videos of what went on?

[jebus]

Amazing how the guards have no problem using violence against teachers sitting down in a road, or students marching against an illegal war, but when it came to a mob tearing up O'Connell St last march they were oddly quiet. Same old **** in this country with that police force, when there's an actual crime happening in town they're usually off taking some kid's football off him for kicking it in the street. they are genuinely terrified of real criminals and then take out their fear and frustrations on people who generally won't fight back

As for whether or not the protestors deserved a beating for standing up for what they believe in, no I don't think they did

[BohsPartisan]

What we must be clear about here is that the law, the Gardaí, the state in general exists for the purpose of safegaurding the "rights" of big business. If your opponant is playing with a stacked deck, its pointless trying to play by the rules. The Garda thugs will be protected by the state. The millionaire owned propaganda machine that is the mainstream media will spread bogus stories of "Violent protests" and fictional injured female Gardaí.
A good analogy (though Rossport is on a smaller scale) was the viscious assault on the Miners strike of 1984 by the UK state. There was a sustained campaign of media vilification against the strikers. The cops beat up strikers and intimidated their families. The BBC edited film footage to make it look like the miners had attacked first when it has since been verified that it was the cops who moved first. People protesting against state repression and multinationals who use "our" state security force as their own private boot boys have no moral obligation to abide by the polite norms of fair protest as there are simply no such niceties observed by the state.

[dahamsta]

You might want to tone down the rhetoric BohsPartisan, you sound like a TV caricture of an old skool commie; all you're short is the word "comrade". Seriously, you're not doing yourself any favours with it, people are just going to laugh or ignore you completely.

[BohsPartisan]

Thats their problem. I'm just telling it as I see it. The thing about the BBC editing footage is 100% true and not some conspiracy theory, they have since admitted it.
It would help if you could point to the places in particular you feel I have gone OTT and maybe I could address them individualy.

[dahamsta]

Well, start with the first sentence, which is a gross exaggeration and insulting to many, not least the Gardaí. There are some bad apples in the Gardaí, sure, but labelling the entire force like that is simply not grounded in reality. Then you call them "thugs", which is another step down that road. Then you make a comparison to the miner's strike, which I'm sure the miners would find offensive.

I'm not stopping you ranting (as long as it doesn't interfere with the operation of Foot.ie), feel free. I'm just telling you that you sound like a college kid on a college rant; and if you talk like that, as I said, people in general are going to do one of two things: a) laugh or b) ignore you. You'd do a lot better if you toned down the rhetoric, imho.

adam

[sonofstan]

Adam, why is what BP is doing 'rhetoric' whereas Ringo (just for example) calling the protestors a 'rent- a- mob' not? And, on another point, I don't think people who were involved in the 84-85 miners strike would find his comparison offensive at all

[BohsPartisan]

The first sentance I qualify with the term "In General". I.E. the system we live under was set up by a certain class I.E. The capitalist class in its own image to serve its own interests. "Private Property" rights in the capitalist system supercede (in general) all other rights. As the Gardaí exist as an institution to uphold these laws, what I said is generally true.
The Morris tribunal pointed to more than a few Bad Apples and to widespread corruption in the force. This is notwithstanding the genuineness of many individual Gardaí and is a criticism of the institution rather than individuals.
As for the thugs remark, their actions in Rossport and at Demos I have personally witnessed in Dublin bares this out.
I don't understand why you say the miners would find the comparison offensive.

[dahamsta]

Adam, why is what BP is doing 'rhetoric' whereas Ringo (just for example) calling the protestors a 'rent- a- mob' not?I didn't see Ringo's post, I did see BP's. That's what BP gets for drawing attention to himelf. :)


I don't think people who were involved in the 84-85 miners strike would find his comparison offensive at allPerhaps not. If I was one of them, I would. Rossport v the miner's strike? Slight difference in scale, topic, approach, etc, etc.

[BohsPartisan]

Scale is different (which I said in my original point). The reaction of the state though is similar and it was the comparison I was drawing.

[WeAreRovers]

Adam, why is what BP is doing 'rhetoric'

It's not BP it's Shell. ;)

Seriously though, the Shell to Sea people need to sort out their PR quickly. As dahamsta points out in relation to Boh Partisan's post, a lot of the anti-Shell stuff comes across as old school left wing begrudgery.

The real issues are multinationals being handed state assets for free and the use of the Gardai to enforce the will of said multinationals. Shell to Sea need to concentrate on the issues and getting their message across.

KOH

[dahamsta]

I wouldn't mind, but there's plenty of modern-minded PR people in the likes of Greenpeace who would be only too willing to help; if not on the record then off the record.

adam

[BohsPartisan]

As dahamsta points out in relation to Boh Partisan's post, a lot of the anti-Shell stuff comes across as old school left wing begrudgery.



That just happens to be true.
You're right though that more emphasis should be put on the giveaway of natural resourses which is what I was saying all along in the old Rossport thread.

[anto1208]

That just happens to be true.
You're right though that more emphasis should be put on the giveaway of natural resourses which is what I was saying all along in the old Rossport thread.


they are nt giving it away , our goverment cant afford to bring the gas ashore and treat it so they are getting shell who will spend million apon millions doing just that , the gas will be pumped into the irish network and into your home reducing our dependancy on importing energy in turn reducing your gas bill . its for the greater good of the people .


i notice these protesters still drive cars , unless its run on rapeseed oil arent they being a bit hypocritcal ?. They will buy and use products produced by these "evil oil company's" but still protest against them ????

is it a not in my back yard thing with them i wonder ?

[BohsPartisan]

I still eat food that is produced by Capitalist concerns. Are you suggesting that anyone who is against Capitalism should grow their own food and drop out of society like hippies? Of course they drive cars, they live out in the back of beyond. They have to drive cars. As for motivations for the process there are many, from simply the issue of the pipeline being dangerous (hence the name of the campaign) to that of the pipeline being given away. The idea that the Irish government could not afford to bring the gas ashore itself is ridiculous. Its been done before for a start so why is this situation different?

[anto1208]

I still eat food that is produced by Capitalist concerns. Are you suggesting that anyone who is against Capitalism should grow their own food and drop out of society like hippies??

well yes the only way capitalist company's as you call them will take any notice is when it hits there profit margins .

So you dont want shell etc to produce gas or petrol etc but you do want to use it to drive your car and heat your house how does that work ??

this pipeline or treatment plant is of no more a danger than a power station

i dont agree with for example battery raised chicken so i dont eat them , i dont sit in KFC tucking into some popcorn chicken protesting about how KFC treat animals !!!!

[BohsPartisan]

Individual consumer boycotts do little to make Capitalist companies - the only type there are today, sit up and take notice. In case you haven't noticed, Shell don't produce gas, they process already existing resources. People have needs. Boycotting stuff is pointless in general unless it is linked to some sort of industrial action. The workers produce everything. Why shouldn't they use what they collectively have produced. The problem is the ownership of these resources and thats where we merge with the Socialism thread so I'll stop at that.

[osarusan]

So you dont want shell etc to produce gas or petrol etc but you do want to use it to drive your car and heat your house how does that work ??

Would you use that arguement to somebody who used their car to travel around and gave presentations informing people about the effects of fossil fuels on global warming?

Would you say that they should just stay home and not use any fossil fuel generated form of transport?

I think that you are using a pretty selective arguement to accuse these people of being hypocritical.




i dont agree with for example battery raised chicken so i dont eat them , i dont sit in KFC tucking into some popcorn chicken protesting about how KFC treat animals !!!!

I think people have a lot more choice regarding the kind of fast food they eat than the kind of fuel they use, so I dont think the comparison is apt.

[dahamsta]

This thread is drifting off-topic, please keep it on the Rossport issue directly.

[anto1208]

Would you use that arguement to somebody who used their car to travel around and gave presentations informing people about the effects of fossil fuels on global warming?

Would you say that they should just stay home and not use any fossil fuel generated form of transport?

I think that you are using a pretty selective arguement to accuse these people of being hypocritical.




I think people have a lot more choice regarding the kind of fast food they eat than the kind of fuel they use, so I dont think the comparison is apt.

well yes i think the phrase is practice what you preach !!!

there is allways a choice solar, wind, hydro, biofuel etc etc , the people in this rossport nonsence are protesting about shell while at the same time supporting them by buying there products :confused:

what is there arguement ? they want petrol /gas etc but they dont want it processed here but they are quite happy to use petrol or gas processed somewhere else .

[SÓC]

It's not BP it's Shell. ;)
The use of the Gardai to enforce the will of said multinationals.

I'd agree with the rest of the post but...the Gardaí are enforcing the will of the Irish Courts and not that of Shell or the Government

[BohsPartisan]

And the will of the courts is the will of the multinationals. Very little has changed in Irish law since the days when we were part of the British Empire, who's interests do you think the B.E. established their laws for the benefit of? Rackrenting landlords and captains of industry thats who. Thats why these laws suit the Irish capitalist establishment and the tentacles of US Imperialism - the multinationals - so well today.





what is there arguement ? they want petrol /gas etc but they dont want it processed here but they are quite happy to use petrol or gas processed somewhere else .

Either you are being disingenious here or you are ignorant of reasons for the protest.
Issue One: They (the residents of the area) want the gas processed off shore as is the industry norm unless of course the Gas sourse is in the middle of a desert miles from habitation.
Issue TWO: The left in the campaign want the gas to be processed by a nationalised company run for ther benefit of the Irish peple, not a profit exporting multinational.
Issue Three: Some elements I.E. the environmentalists would prefer not to have the gas processed at all. These three elements of the protest represent different views who have come together for the purpose of unity. I doubt anyone is in all three camps more likely you have Issue 1. as the main issue for the locals with some having an interest in issue two and others with issue three.

[onceahoop]

And the will of the courts is the will of the multinationals. Very little has changed in Irish law since the days when we were part of the British Empire, who's interests do you think the B.E. established their laws for the benefit of? Rackrenting landlords and captains of industry thats who. Thats why these laws suit the Irish capitalist establishment and the tentacles of US Imperialism - the multinationals - so well today.

Are you saying that the Judiciary is not independent?. There is a clear seperation of power between it and the executive.

The Constitution was written in 1937 which was long after the British left. Many new laws have been enacted since then which have no relation to The Empire. I've sat in many a court room and watched judges go out of their way to help citizens of the state in cases where the State has initiated proceedings against them.

Finally, I have to agree with Dahamsta. You sound like your cutting and pasting out of every little red book that was ever written. Dogma turns peole off.

[BohsPartisan]

Then why do you repeat the Dogma you are taught in school that the judiciary is independant? Name to me a time in history when the state was independant of classes, when the state was not organised along the lines that best suited the ruling class. Why for example are the tribunals into political corruption unable to prosecute anyone? I'm not sying that a judge or a garda can't be a decent person but I am saying that these institutions are institutions of class rule. You can call that dogma if it makes you feel better but any look at the evidence bears this out. The fact that it was legal to rob the Irish people of the corrib gas field in the beginning bears this out.

[Ringo]

This is going way off topic. Comrade Bohspartisan is throwing a lot of accusations here about the Gardai & the state. I had a lot of sympathy for the Rossport five. They were local people protesting about something that was happening in their community. My reference to the rent-a-mob, was accurate in my opinion. Sinn Fein admitted to busing in 22 people & then the usual suspects of Social workers & Richard Boyd (rich boy with nothing else to do) Barrett turn up. As I’ve said before other people have rights too , not just the protesters. If you feel so strongly about these issues ,you should stand alone & not use petrol/plastic & whatever other by products the industry produces. It’s like listening to a vegetarian talking about the evils of meat while eating a big juicy steak dripping blood

[BohsPartisan]

Thats a moronic comment Ringo.
1. If someone was a Vegetarian they wouldn't be eating a steak.
2. You are not comparing like with like. Being a vegetarian is a lifestyle choice, being a Socialist is a political choice. Being a Socialist does not mean you are against cars, mass produced food, deoderant, shaving utensils or any of these things - it means you want to change the way wealth is produced and distributed on a mass scale. You can't do that by turning on tuning in and dropping out. Its an idiotic analogy that is not worthy of a 16 year old.
3. Sinn Féin or anyone else bussing people in to support the protest is irrelivant. Many groups did that. So what. 22 people on a bus? What a revelation!
I don't like Sinn Féin one bit and I'm not the biggest fan of the SWP so if it was just these people making up something to protest on 1. I wouldn't support it, 2. It wouldn't have lasted this long because you need some sort of support in society at large to sustain something like this. 3. The issue which has already been addressed is not that these people do not want to use Cars or the fuel that makes the cars go its how it gets from A to B, how and where it is refined and who is doing the refining. Now stop wasting my time with illinformed comments like the above.

[dahamsta]

Thats a moronic comment Ringo.So is that. We've had a discussion about this in the Support forum before when you stuck your nose in to lecture me about how I dealt with someone else, so you know damn well it's against the rules. Don't do it again, and don't argue with me.

[pete]

The gardai are upholding the laws of this land & decisions of various independent courts. I agree with comments that the gardai not heavy handed enough in other situations where people blocking public roads.

The Shell to Sea people do not know what they stand for. Do they oppose Shell use of natural resouces? Do they oppose the Terminal in exisiting location or all locations? 'Shell to Sea' name suggest that they do not oppose the Shell operation but just don't want it in their area. They are no different than any other nimby organisation. The addition of some SF supportes to their protests will not increase public support.

The big business Rhetoric is getting boring now. We live in a democratic country & just because some people can't get TDs elected in enough numbers they complain about bias. The state funds political parties & public donations are not done in secret anymore. Not accepting the democratic will of the country is called Communism!

I didn't vote for FF & I don't like them but for good or bad thats what the nation elected to run this country. If the majority doesn't like this they will vote for someone else or stand for election themselves.

:rolleyes:

[BohsPartisan]

The gardai are upholding the laws of this land & decisions of various independent courts. I agree with comments that the gardai not heavy handed enough in other situations where people blocking public roads.
Done to death. You can look at my answer to this type of thing in any of the other posts in this or the other Rossport threads. You're like a broken record now.


The Shell to Sea people do not know what they stand for.

Again I have outlined this in a post above. S2S is a federated group with different viewpoints coming together for a common cause. See my previous post.


The big business Rhetoric is getting boring now. We live in a democratic country & just because some people can't get TDs elected in enough numbers they complain about bias. The state funds political parties & public donations are not done in secret anymore. Not accepting the democratic will of the country is called Communism!

Ah the old capitalist Dogma rearing its head again. You know as a moderator you should know better than to stray off topic. Me DrND and SoS have answered these ridiculous comments (which if I didn't know better I would describe as flaming) in great depth in the Socialism thread. Unless you adequately tackle our answers, which you haven't, please refrain from this line of arguement.



I didn't vote for FF & I don't like them but for good or bad thats what the nation elected to run this country.
Less than 1/4 of the Adult population voted for them. Hardly representative of the Nation now is it? Its very expensive to run candidates and the government funding you mentioned is a pitance compared with what the brown paper envelope can afford, but again this is straying off topic.

[Ringo]

Thats a moronic comment Ringo.
1. If someone was a Vegetarian they wouldn't be eating a steak.
2. You are not comparing like with like. Being a vegetarian is a lifestyle choice, being a Socialist is a political choice. Being a Socialist does not mean you are against cars, mass produced food, deoderant, shaving utensils or any of these things - it means you want to change the way wealth is produced and distributed on a mass scale. You can't do that by turning on tuning in and dropping out. Its an idiotic analogy that is not worthy of a 16 year old.
3. Sinn Féin or anyone else bussing people in to support the protest is irrelivant. Many groups did that. So what. 22 people on a bus? What a revelation!
I don't like Sinn Féin one bit and I'm not the biggest fan of the SWP so if it was just these people making up something to protest on 1. I wouldn't support it, 2. It wouldn't have lasted this long because you need some sort of support in society at large to sustain something like this. 3. The issue which has already been addressed is not that these people do not want to use Cars or the fuel that makes the cars go its how it gets from A to B, how and where it is refined and who is doing the refining. Now stop wasting my time with illinformed comments like the above.


I feel if some opposes the petrol industry, then they shouldn't drive in the same way a vegetarian as you point out would not eat meat, why would you contribute to the industry. The original aim of the Rossport five is being lost (as is the topic in this thread:rolleyes: ). They were never against Shell; they just wanted the pipe either at sea or somewhere else. As someone said NIMBY’s. The collection of people protesting now, all have their own agenda’s & personnel grievances with Shell, The government & Gardai etc. The topic is about Rossport & the protest there, not about socialism & Capitalism. .