Keane - McCarthy - Let this be the end of it

[Dr. Ogba]

We could certainly do with Matt Holland now!!

Would sooner have Lee Carsley any day!

[Billsthoughts]

Mick has said that he was too inexperienced when he took the Irish job. However he, like Stan, couldnt turn it down.

Mick never let his country down. And if your pal had so much desire to play in a WC where was he during it?


he let his country down by consistantly bein a crap manager.
roy keane let his country down by consistantly being our best player?
where were you in WC 2002?
why werent you playin for Ireland?
did you let your country down by deciding not to throw all your energies into playing football? I think ya did. traitor.

[antrimgreen]

Roy Keane is a legend, however there is two sides to every coin, and without keane and the whole **** surrounding his departure, the players who put on the green shirt did their country proud in Saipan, we deserved and should have beat Spain. Credit were credit is due, we are debating how good we were or were not in WC02, wouldn't it be nice to have to judge are players in a tournament again.

[antrimgreen]

P.S. Holland may not be world class, but i am sure he would have done a much better job in the middle of the park than S Ireland & Kilbane did against cyprus.

[NY Hoop]

he let his country down by consistantly bein a crap manager.
roy keane let his country down by consistantly being our best player?
where were you in WC 2002?
why werent you playin for Ireland?
did you let your country down by deciding not to throw all your energies into playing football? I think ya did. traitor.

Eight competitive defeats in seven years doesnt constitute crap I'm afraid. You obviously have a chip on your shoulder regarding him.

Rest of your post doesnt make any sense really traitor lover.

KOH

[Dr. Ogba]

Eight competitive defeats in seven years doesnt constitute crap I'm afraid. You obviously have a chip on your shoulder regarding him.

Rest of your post doesnt make any sense really traitor lover.

KOH

Ah very clever, I see what you did there...:rolleyes:

[as_i_say]

Holland is well past it now i believe and would not be much use to us but 5 years ago he was an extremely effective midfielder, captain of his club, and banging in the goals from midfield. He did more than his fair share in helping us to qualify for 2002 and thats as much down to management by mick as anything else.

as soon as mccarthy went holland became a nothing player for us. there is something to be said for him playing well alongside keane as did phil babb alongside mcgrath but to say he was ****e for ireland is utter rubbish.

he didnt look interested when playing for us after mccarthy which in my opinion means that he knew that the good times were over and that he just didnt want to play for us anymore and that in itself is sad and a reason why i would have no interest in having him back.

[Billsthoughts]

Rest of your post doesnt make any sense really traitor lover.

KOH

:D v good

my chip stems from enduring 6 odd years of his crap stewardship. I will go on the evidance of my own eyes over the evidance of your ability to use google

[NY Hoop]

:D v good

my chip stems from enduring 6 odd years of his crap stewardship. I will go on the evidance of my own eyes over the evidance of your ability to use google

God bless your eyesight then chip. Great evidence: I dont like him therefore he cant manage.

KOH

[Billsthoughts]

No he made managerial schoolboy errors which cost us games we could have won.

[bennocelt]

and denis irwin had to prove himself!

paul mcgrath man of match against manure utd, overlooked


anyway Mick did alright for a half decent manager

still he should have bit his tongue and let roy have his tantrum

[Emmet]

Mick McCarthy was not the only person to have been on the receiving end of rants like that ... others (including Alex Ferguson) also got something very similar!

[ken foree]

title of this thread is ironic to say the least ;)

[OwlsFan]

Owlsfan you cant see anything through those saipan tinted glasses of yours.
They were dyin to get rid of Macarthy at Millwall at the time. and they were headin down and they did go down. ?

You had the inside knowledge of what was going on in the Millwall boardroom:eek: I repeat they were in SECOND place in the league when McCarthy took the Irish job. Try and back up your statements with some sort of credible evidence.


yes the spain match was brutal. the swiss match was shocking. you say last match in charge as if that excuses it? Russia away was a farce. Swiss home was a farce as well. Macedonia away twice were farces. Iceland home and away farces. belgium home and away ? Ireland only played marginaly better in second leg but were played off the park in first leg despite taking a one nil lead. Holland home ,portugal home and cyprus away were all in no small part due to Roy Keanes influence on all the games. he had a massive game in them all which dragged the rest of them with him. holland away we were two goals up and still threw it away. we found our true level in the World cup. couldnt beat anyone except a very poor saudi team. were blessed against spain to get to extra time and were poor against cameroon. the first two keane -less games of the following campaign were absolutely clueless performances agaisnt swiss and russia. anyone who looks back on macarthys time as some golden era in irish football either only started getting into it around the qualifiers for the 2002 WC or knows nothing about football.

No one said the McCarthy time was the "golden era" in Irish football. When Charlton left, the team was in decline. Anyone who was at Lisbon, Austria and Anfield during that campaign could see that. More than half the team was over 30 so it was a rebuilding process that McCarthy faced. Despite that HIS team got us to two play offs and eventual fruition in qualification. With the resources at his disposal this was a good achievement. Both play off defeats were by the narrowest of margins. The Turkish penalty at Lansdowne was a joke. I agree we didn't peform well in home game against Belgium but we were the better side in Brussels. Perhaps it didn't look like that to you on your barstool but I can tell you his team gave everything that night. Mick cried in the tunnel at the end of that game - he had more passion for his country than some I won't mention. Cameroon - best team in Africa. Germany - WC Finalists. Spain - one of the best teams in Europe. We matched them all. Sorry we didn't beat them all by 6 or 7 as you seem to expect. We might have if someone hadn't taken the huff.



thats you in the second category owlsfan. as for your roy keane dig at me? your the one who is the sheffield wednesday fan. didnt think they had much to do with Ireland? fact is Macarthy qualified for one out of 3 tournaments. if rebuilding is an excuse he shouldnt have taken the job. echoes of staunton now. if he needs to learn how to be a manager he should feck off and do it on someone elses time. Interesting thing in Magraths book that fergie basically admits he didnt have enough experience to know how to handle certain situations when he first took over Man U. where the hell does that leave the FAIs policy of recruiting and overpayin the Wallsal waterboy?

Bit rich coming from someone who names himself after a clown of a tv presenter who knows nothing about soccer (appropriate I suppose when Ithink about it). I follow, Ireland, Shamrock Rovers and Sheffield Wednesday. SO what? There had to be a rebuilding process for the reasons already explained. Even if someone like Ferguson had taken the job he would have had to rebuild. It's not an excuse - it's a fact for Mick. You are just so negative about everything. Tell me something that you have taken enjoyment out of Ireland in the last 20 years.

Stan - that's a different story.

[Billsthoughts]

excuses, excuses....

[osarusan]

Mick cried in the tunnel at the end of that game - he had more passion for his country than some I won't mention. Cameroon - best team in Africa. Germany - WC Finalists. Spain - one of the best teams in Europe. We matched them all. Sorry we didn't beat them all by 6 or 7 as you seem to expect. We might have if someone hadn't taken the huff.


You are just so negative about everything. .


Bit of a contradiction dont you think?

And please stop trying to involve someone in most posts you make on the subject of the Irish team in 2002.

[Billsthoughts]

He cant.
His new found love of positivism doesnt extend to Roy Keane. He also fails to see the irony in accusing me of being overly negative and then jamming his post choc full a personal abuse. but what can you do. some people will be happy that Ireland put in a "performance" in the game agaisnt the czechs. is it negative to point out that 1 point from 9 and our qualification hopes gone after 3 games is unaceptable?

[geysir]

I suspect that the troubled spirit of Klein4 in ghostly form has returned to haunt the forum.

[greendeiseboy]

just thought i'd throw this one up for discussion. seen as they have now buried the hatchet etc..

Plenty of experience between the two of them. O.K. Keane has yet to prove himself at managment level but by the time the position becomes available he should have enough.

And does anyoune think that maybe the same thing is going in their heads in this regard given the recent ending of the feud.

[macdermesser]

Mc Carthy has done his stint in the irish job and keane is keen to prove himself in management first. unless they both fail miserably in their present jobs .. it might be a runner .. but otherwise, its a complete non-starter. In any case, Stan will keep his job as long as Delaney is there.

[greendeiseboy]

i'm talking after stauntons stint is over whenever that may be. just because mccarthy had a stint already dosent prohibit him from another.

the point i'm making is that say in 3-4 years time the overall experience of both of them would warrant a serious look at the possibility of them teaming up.

[Billsthoughts]

what would macarthy bring to this only his woeful record with sunderland? and keane for that matter? hes only one step up from Staunton on the managerial ladder and its not a very big step at that!

[zinedineontour]

what would macarthy bring to this only his woeful record with sunderland? and keane for that matter? hes only one step up from Staunton on the managerial ladder and its not a very big step at that!

mc carthys woeful record at sunderland that got them to a fa cup semi final and up to the premier league on a shoestring ..

[Billsthoughts]

mc carthys woeful record at sunderland that got them to a fa cup semi final and up to the premier league on a shoestring ..
shoestring?
he had the money from the premiership tv rights. not poor at all. was he anyway worse off than some of the other teams in that division? no.unless ya can quote me some figures we can put that he was on a shoestring as your opinion as opposed to a fact. as I said. universally known as a crap manager. beaten out of sight in the premiership twice. FA cup semi final? didnt they get knocked out by millwall???

[youngirish]

mc carthys woeful record at sunderland that got them to a fa cup semi final and up to the premier league on a shoestring ..


Yeah and the two worst seasons for any team in the Premiership since records began. Shoestring? He spent 1.8 million on Jonathan Stead ffs. He might as well have wiped his ar*e with it.


I hope we don't revert to Bert from Sesame Street for Staunton's successor. Surely there's someone half decent out there managing in the Championship with some potential and decent experience that would gladly take the 600 grand a year that Staunton and Robson are skimming.

[galwayhoop]

he let his country down by consistantly bein a crap manager.
roy keane let his country down by consistantly being our best player?
where were you in WC 2002?




mcCarthy mightn't have been our best manager but consistently got the players to perform apart from a few notable exceptions. he at no time let his country down.

roy keane let his country down by walking out (his version) on the eve of the world cup despite being our best player.

where was roy keane for WC2002? walking his dog!

before i start i have always said the roy keane is one of our best players ever, but.......

keane has this reputation (espically among man u fans) of being this great man of principle who 'showed mick' and 'was right to leave because he felt the facilities were not right' and made a fool of niall quinn by not shaking his hand after being sent off for elbowing jason mcateer (the man whos goal actually went very far to securing our qualification t WC2002) and consistntly called quinn a muppet and said he wanted nothing to do with him after saipan.

he has been the pied piper to so many people in this country who blindly followed him since saipan (some even to the extent of booing the national team!!) - now he works for quinn! hypocrite?? you tell me.

also mick mccarthy comfortably got sunderland promoted to the premiership (in first position) at the first attempt and despite having to sell 15 players from the previous year. he may have boght lemons after but in 2004/05 he astonded everyone because the thought at the time was they were gonna do a swindon and slip right down the leagues - they were in serious debt and the board just wanted to clear the wage bill of all high earners. no one thought they were going to do anything but they went up. granted he was crap in the premiership but lets see if roy can get 'em there.

EDIT: i know roy started with 6 or so games gone but take 18 ponts from sunderlands total from 2004/5 and that would still of got them promoted

[Billsthoughts]

mcCarthy mightn't have been our best manager but consistently got the players to perform apart from a few notable exceptions. he at no time let his country down.

Just not true. He got good results when Keane was in the team. Without him we were third rate. He had one of the best midfielders in Europe at his peak in his team. This has to be taken into account when judging his ability as a manager and the results he acheived. His only Keane less campaign he didnt win a game. Was the Argentinian manager in the 86 wc one of the best managers in the world or did he just have a fantastic resource at his disposal?
Macarthy benefitted from managerial "Phill Babb syndrome". unfortanatley he beleived his own press and sent his best player home from the WC. (his version;) )


roy keane let his country down by walking out (his version) on the eve of the world cup despite being our best player.
where was roy keane for WC2002? walking his dog!


Again I throw this back at you(and anyone else of the simplistic "Let his country down" brigade)..where were you in that World Cup? You couldnt have been arsed puttin in the hours to become a proffesional footballer. so did you not let your country down as well in away? Who are you to pass judgement on anyone else then? If he chose to walk his dog thats his choice. Letting himself down would be doing or being part of something he didnt beleive in just cause someone he will probably never meet feels its HIS duty to play for Ireland. Did Muhammad Ali let his country down by not going to Vietnam? "I dont have to be who you want me to be" was his quote. I have more respect for someone who follows his own head and heart than goes with the flow. He didnt hide behind his reputation or go missing like a lot of players do when they play for their country.



before i start i have always said the roy keane is one of our best players ever, but.......
keane has this reputation (espically among man u fans) of being this great man of principle who 'showed mick' and 'was right to leave because he felt the facilities were not right' and made a fool of niall quinn by not shaking his hand after being sent off for elbowing jason mcateer (the man whos goal actually went very far to securing our qualification t WC2002) and consistntly called quinn a muppet and said he wanted nothing to do with him after saipan.

youve gone off on one here .....
he wouldnt shake quinns hand in public so what?- even quinn in retrospect probably feels the gesture was a bit naff. Macateer purposefully went out to wind keane up in that game. he was entitled to and it worked but the national team could have done without that panto and all 3 let themselves down that day. they looked like idiots.both quinn and keane seem to be pragmatists at the end of the day and I for one see that as a good characteristic.



he has been the pied piper to so many people in this country who blindly followed him since saipan (some even to the extent of booing the national team!!) - now he works for quinn! hypocrite?? you tell me.

the national team was booed against Iceland well before this on the instruction of Cathal Dervan. A good mate of Macarthys. let you do the pop psychology on that one. as for blindly following him...where are these people supposed to be following him??:confused:



also mick mccarthy comfortably got sunderland promoted to the premiership (in first position) at the first attempt and despite having to sell 15 players from the previous year. he may have boght lemons after but in 2004/05 he astonded everyone because the thought at the time was they were gonna do a swindon and slip right down the leagues - they were in serious debt and the board just wanted to clear the wage bill of all high earners. no one thought they were going to do anything but they went up. granted he was crap in the premiership but lets see if roy can get 'em there.

It was his second attempt.
and they went straight back down with him getting the sack with the board unwilling to entrust him with getting them back up again. why was that if he was such a miracle worker?

The bottom line was that Keane was one of the top 3 players this country has ever produced. Its a good sign of how things are in this country that a lot of people hate him because they put English club allegiances above their own country yet see no irony in calling him a traitor and accusing him of letting his country down. Some people here settle for mediocrity and have that "ah sure it will be alright on the nite" mentality, other people here despise that mentality. Keanes ambition and his success appeals to these as much is it rankles the win or lose we are here for the "craic" crowd. more concerned with whether we are well liked by other countries as opposed to whether we beat them or not. more concerned about how "upset2 the players are at losing as opposed to angry at the fact they continually bottle it on the pitch. Roy Keane was a winner. what would we give for a Roy Keane in the current bunch who got thrashed by a holiday resort?

[bennocelt]

roy keane let his country down by walking out (his version) on the eve of the world cup despite being our best player.

where was roy keane for WC2002? walking his dog!



he didnt let me down

[Emmet]

Again I throw this back at you(and anyone else of the simplistic "Let his country down" brigade)..where were you in that World Cup? You couldnt have been arsed puttin in the hours to become a proffesional footballer. so did you not let your country down as well in away? Who are you to pass judgement on anyone else then? If he chose to walk his dog thats his choice

Christ!! I don't know where to even begin ... :confused:

[Emmet]

McCarthy took over a team that was well over-the-hill. Charlton had allowed the same group of players to grow old together and had not gradually introduced younger players to give them experience. Consequently when Mick came along he needed to give debuts to a lot of players who had no international experience whatsoever. Common sense dictates that there will be a few sticky performances in these circumstances and that is exactly what happened. However, Mick did get the team to several playoffs and he did get the team to within a penalty shootout for the quarter finals of the World Cup. When you look at the players he had at his disposal that was a good achievement. Yes - he had Roy Keane and yes Keane got the team better results but look at Manchester United at the time - Treble Winners, Champions League winners etc etc etc. Who was the captain of that team? Who - out of all the stars in that side - was head and shoulders above them all? Roy Keane of the late 1990s / early 2000s was the best player in the world ... his club form (as well as his international form) shows that. However, that does not make McCarthy any less of a manager. As can be seen at Chelsea now - world class players do not necessarily settle into a team and perform: the circumstances need to be right. The circumstances are largely determined by the manager. Yes, Keane played some outstanding football for us at that time and we were very fortunate to have a player of his class but McCarthy facilitated those performances.

[Karlos]

I suspect that the troubled spirit of Klein4 in ghostly form has returned to haunt the forum.


I was just thinking the same thing! ;)

[Marked Man]

Could people please stop quoting billsthoughts, as it's making my use of the ignore button ineffective.

[Billsthoughts]

Christ!! I don't know where to even begin ... :confused:

Why?
Its a simple matter of applyin the same standards to yourself as you do to other people. and shows up the stupidity and OTTness of calling someone a traitor cause he decided a drinking session ending in a moral victory wasnt for him...

[Billsthoughts]

I was just thinking the same thing! ;)


Could people please stop quoting billsthoughts, as it's making my use of the ignore button ineffective.

Ah lets give "Stan" a chance...sure he is a lovely man.....:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
I see the head in the sand brigade are out in force again...

[Karlos]

I'm honoured to be quoted by your good self Bill considering I contributed almost nothing to this thread for or against your argument!

I really must be held in high esteem as a member of the 'Head In Sand Brigade'! :cool:


Surely you've better things to be doing with your time Bill :rolleyes:

[dr_peepee]

Olof Mellberg - greatest beard in football today, perhaps even ever...:D


Abel Xavier... 'cept it turned out his beard wasn't actually dyed... Just some "residue"!!!

[Billsthoughts]

I'm honoured to be quoted by your good self Bill considering I contributed almost nothing to this thread for or against your argument!

I really must be held in high esteem as a member of the 'Head In Sand Brigade'! :cool:


Surely you've better things to be doing with your time Bill :rolleyes:

I have some FIFA reports to peruse but other than that my weekend is free....

[Emmet]

Why?
Its a simple matter of applyin the same standards to yourself as you do to other people. and shows up the stupidity and OTTness of calling someone a traitor cause he decided a drinking session ending in a moral victory wasnt for him...

Do you think Colin Healy would agree with that?

[NY Hoop]

Why?
Its a simple matter of applyin the same standards to yourself as you do to other people. and shows up the stupidity and OTTness of calling someone a traitor cause he decided a drinking session ending in a moral victory wasnt for him...

Absolute rubbish. When you walk out on your country you deserve to be called a traitor. Comparing it to the Ali situation?:rolleyes:

Winners dont let their country down.

KOH

[NeilMcD]

Lads we dont have to agree on this issue as I dont think anybody has every changed their mind on this issue as a result of debating it on an internet forum or even in a pub over a few beers. However there is no excuse for snide little personal comments made about people or to use OTT the top remarks like traitor in relation to Keane or muppet in relation to Mc Carthy. It only detracts from ones argument in my opinion.

[Billsthoughts]

Absolute rubbish. When you walk out on your country you deserve to be called a traitor. Comparing it to the Ali situation?:rolleyes:

Winners dont let their country down.

KOH

well it is comparable. he was called much the same things at the time. the prevailing mood was that he was letting his country down and there wasnt much sympathy for him. but hard to argue with them roll eyes....

[NY Hoop]

well it is comparable. he was called much the same things at the time. the prevailing mood was that he was letting his country down and there wasnt much sympathy for him. but hard to argue with them roll eyes....

Well of course it's comparable. One very famous black man refuses to go to the other side of the world to kill Vietnamese and the other couldnt be arsed playing football for his country in a World Cup.

Your reasoning qualifies you for a job at the FAI for life.

KOH

[Emmet]

well it is comparable. he was called much the same things at the time. the prevailing mood was that he was letting his country down and there wasnt much sympathy for him. but hard to argue with them roll eyes....
It simply isn't even remotely comparable ... Ali's stance was as much about his own race / identity as it was to do with the Vietnam war & what happened to him after his time at the Olympics! You clearly feel that Keane's actions were deliberate and fair (which is fair enough) but - aside from the whole 'letting his country down' argument - what about someone like Colin Healy? Someone who will almost certainly never get to play in a world cup finals. Is it fair on him?

[Billsthoughts]

Well of course it's comparable. One very famous black man refuses to go to the other side of the world to kill Vietnamese and the other couldnt be arsed playing football for his country in a World Cup.

Your reasoning qualifies you for a job at the FAI for life.

KOH

if you dont know anything about something why bother replying?
I doubt he was gonna be killing vietnamese for starters but if it suits your argument or lack therof throw it in sure what the bother.
The majority of americans at the time thought he was totally in the wrong. As for the Colin Healy thing...he wont get to play in a world cup again cause he aint good enough. he didnt get to play in one before because he wasnt good enough.

[NY Hoop]

if you dont know anything about something why bother replying?
I doubt he was gonna be killing vietnamese for starters but if it suits your argument or lack therof throw it in sure what the bother.
The majority of americans at the time thought he was totally in the wrong. As for the Colin Healy thing...he wont get to play in a world cup again cause he aint good enough. he didnt get to play in one before because he wasnt good enough.

Always ask myself that when I see your posts.

So going to war means people wont be killed? Are you for real? How do you know he would'nt have been sent to the front line? Maybe you know everything or absolutely nothing judging by your posts.

You're obviously missing the point re Healy. He had a chance of playing but that went cos of all the faffing around traitor did. "Mick I wanna go home", is then persuaded to stay and then he lost the plot.

KOH

[Irish_Praha]

Well of course it's comparable. One very famous black man refuses to go to the other side of the world to kill Vietnamese and the other couldnt be arsed playing football for his country in a World Cup.

Your reasoning qualifies you for a job at the FAI for life.

KOH

I think both sides were at fault but the post above has to be contender for post of the month (made me laugh anyway) :D

[Billsthoughts]

The Ali comparison was merely giving another example of someone who did what he felt was right thing to do rather than what was expected of him. Even leaving aside the fact that neither NY Hoop or Emmet seem to know the ins and outs of the Ali case its a valid comparison given the use of words like "traitor" and "let his country down". NY Hoop if you dont feel there is any comparison due to differance in the seriousness of both situations then why do you not see this differnace when it comes to applying inflammatory language to the Keane situation? By discrediting me do you not discredit yourself and the language you use? I guess what I am trying to say is you are an immature little **** who follows anyone who even deigns to disagree with him round the messageboard like a child. So stop following me and get a life. I disagree with, ya get over it. get therapy.

[Emmet]

As for the Colin Healy thing...he wont get to play in a world cup again cause he aint good enough. he didnt get to play in one before because he wasnt good enough.
Get your facts right!! Colin Healy was selected for the Irish squad - he even had shirts made up for him by Umbro! He was good enough and was devasted by FIFA's decision to prevent him from playing.

[Billsthoughts]

Get your facts right!! Colin Healy was selected for the Irish squad - he even had shirts made up for him by Umbro! He was good enough and was devasted by FIFA's decision to prevent him from playing.

selected for the squad? did he miss his flight or something? make alternative arrangements? werent you on moaning about people being too hard on our stan then nowhere to be heard of after the cyprus game?

[Emmet]

selected for the squad? did he miss his flight or something? make alternative arrangements? werent you on moaning about people being too hard on our stan then nowhere to be heard of after the cyprus game?

Bill - stop advertising your ignorance. He had made alternative arrangements but he dropped them as soon as he heard he had been called up. Like Keane he trained hard and worked hard all his professional career and was unfairly deprived the opportunity to play at a World Cup ... Btw - what does Cyprus have to do with it???