Keane - McCarthy - Let this be the end of it

[Billsthoughts]

Stop advertising my ignorance?
he wasnt in the original squad. ergo he wasnt deemed good enough to play in the world cup. end of story.

[Den Perry]

Can any of ye rememebr the guy for sheff utd, Cork ? that wouldnt shave till he scored, hard for a defender, but hemanaged one in the FA semi-final
years ago, not that last time sheff utd were there but the time befire
he had a cracking beard

Was alan cork not a striker?

[Den Perry]

I don't think one R.Keane was beside him in Japan when he scored against the Cameroon but I may be wrong ;)
True, but that was all holland did in the world cup....our central midfield were terrible at that tournament

[Den Perry]

I suspect that the troubled spirit of Klein4 in ghostly form has returned to haunt the forum.

I'm still here!!!!!though i've mellowed

what happened Klein? did he get banned?

[bawn79]

Was alan cork not a striker?


Ya he was, he scored in the 3rd round or something and vowed not to shave till they were knocked out of the competition. As you say they got to the semi's so he had a good beard.

[NY Hoop]

The Ali comparison was merely giving another example of someone who did what he felt was right thing to do rather than what was expected of him. Even leaving aside the fact that neither NY Hoop or Emmet seem to know the ins and outs of the Ali case its a valid comparison given the use of words like "traitor" and "let his country down". NY Hoop if you dont feel there is any comparison due to differance in the seriousness of both situations then why do you not see this differnace when it comes to applying inflammatory language to the Keane situation? By discrediting me do you not discredit yourself and the language you use? I guess what I am trying to say is you are an immature little **** who follows anyone who even deigns to disagree with him round the messageboard like a child. So stop following me and get a life. I disagree with, ya get over it. get therapy.

Anyone reading over your posts would know exactly who is immature. Inflammatory words? You cant say Mick McCarthy without resorting to bad language. Discrediting you? Pot, kettle, black there kid.

Following you? Dont flatter yourself. I'm merely pointing out how wrong you are. Be a man admit your mistakes. Wait what am I saying?


KOH

[geysir]

I'm still here!!!!!though i've mellowed

what happened Klein? did he get banned?
Yep, in what could quite possibly be termed a juvenile re-enactment of Keano's tantrum.
http://foot.ie/showpost.php?p=475510&postcount=20

[Emmet]

The Ali comparison was merely giving another example of someone who did what he felt was right thing to do rather than what was expected of him. Even leaving aside the fact that neither NY Hoop or Emmet seem to know the ins and outs of the Ali case its a valid comparison given the use of words like "traitor" and "let his country down".There was a documentary on the History Channel there last night about Ali and the Vietnam conflict and a number of expert historians repeatedly used Roy Keane in Saipan to illustrate the dynamics and gravity of the episode. You're quite right there - I take it all back! :D :D :D

[ken foree]

Ya he was, he scored in the 3rd round or something and vowed not to shave till they were knocked out of the competition. As you say they got to the semi's so he had a good beard.

awesomeness. at least 2 of the greats had beards, best and maradona. socrates another, pele went with a bit of scruff sometimes i think. you'd never see cruyff with a beard..

[Billsthoughts]

There was a documentary on the History Channel there last night about Ali and the Vietnam conflict and a number of expert historians repeatedly used Roy Keane in Saipan to illustrate the dynamics and gravity of the episode. You're quite right there - I take it all back! :D :D :D

there was no documentary was there now? tell the truth. You made it up in an attempt to be funny.

[OwlsFan]

The bottom line was that Keane was one of the top 3 players this country has ever produced. Its a good sign of how things are in this country that a lot of people hate him because they put English club allegiances above their own country yet see no irony in calling him a traitor and accusing him of letting his country down.

People hate him because they put their interest in English clubs before their country. Please explain that one. To nearly all the people of Ireland Keane was a hero (even after dodging going to Iran) before Saipan. To a sizable proportion of Irish soccer fans he fell from grace when, because he couldn't get on with the manager, he left the team in the lurch. Nothing to do with having an interest in English soccer (where all our top players earn a living by the way).

[/QUOTE]Some people here settle for mediocrity and have that "ah sure it will be alright on the nite" mentality, other people here despise that mentality. Keanes ambition and his success appeals to these as much is it rankles the win or lose we are here for the "craic" crowd. more concerned with whether we are well liked by other countries as opposed to whether we beat them or not. more concerned about how "upset2 the players are at losing as opposed to angry at the fact they continually bottle it on the pitch. Roy Keane was a winner. what would we give for a Roy Keane in the current bunch who got thrashed by a holiday resort?[/QUOTE]

This is the big myth about Keane. Only he wants perfection. Only he wants to win. All the others are there just for the craic. We "continually bottle it" on the pitch. Totally unsubstantiated allegations. For a team that just goes for the craic, on EVERY occasion we have qualified for the WC, we have gone on to the next stage of the tournament. Surely if we continually bottled it, couldn't care less, only there for the **** up, we would have lost every game? NO, much easier to make allegations. Keane was a class player - our best of the last generation and sure he would have been great against Cyprus. But so would McGrath, Giles, Brady, etc etc - what's your point?

The fact is he had a personal antipathy for Mick Mc and the minor c*ck ups in Saipan put him over the edge, and he left his team mates behind. The spin was then put on the rest by Drunkphy and others to make him as the super hero, the only one who wants to win.

You can be a success footballer without snarling at everyone, without throwing tantrums, without jeering your team mates in public. Ask Paul McGrath, Liam Brady, Johnny Giles, Ray Houghton, Shay Given etc etc - they all seemed to manage it ok.

I should also mention I was no huge fan of McCarthy either but I always supported the team whoever is in charge and whoever wears the green. I am a "supporter" - look up the definition of that word some day. I was around following Ireland well before the "ole ole" brigade arrived on the scene. I didn't boo the team off after the 1-4 defeat at home to Denmark at the end of the Eoin Hand era as many did at that game.

The "cause" (i.e. Ireland) is greater than any one individual.

[Billsthoughts]

am not going to spend my life arguing with you but just a couple of points...
I never booed off anyone at lansdowne road. Not even Macarthy altho I thought he brought it on himself I didnt see the point in kicking someone when they were down.
There was always a sizeable element of the Irish support who didnt like Keane cause they didnt like man u. He was booed at landsdowne road. FACT.
The rest is your interpretation of the events in saipan. your entitled to it. I dont agree with you.
As for calling Dumphy Drunkphy?
whats the point?

[Emmet]

there was no documentary was there now? tell the truth. You made it up in an attempt to be funny.

Ah yeah but come on - it was a bit funny (it made me smile anyway!!)

[NeilMcD]

Great post Owls Fan. I am a bit keane fan and I thought he was a top player and captain but I think your post is a very blanced assessment of what happened. There were mistakes made on all parts but the idea that Keane was the only winner in that squad is rubbish. I dont think its one that even Keane believed it. It seems sometimes supporters in an argument go further than the man himself.

[Emmet]

A point which people often overlook in the Keane / McCarthy debate is that Keane has done exactly that (ie stand up and slaughter them in front of a large audience) to others, including Ferguson ... the problem (if you regard it as a problem) for Keane is that he is so comprehensive and so unequivical and so accurate it puts the manager in a very awkward position because it challenges the traditional manager / player relationship. And for the record Ferguson dealt with Keane in exactly the same way as McCarthy.

[Billsthoughts]

Great post Owls Fan. I am a bit keane fan and I thought he was a top player and captain but I think your post is a very blanced assessment of what happened. There were mistakes made on all parts but the idea that Keane was the only winner in that squad is rubbish. I dont think its one that even Keane believed it. It seems sometimes supporters in an argument go further than the man himself.

I dont remember ever saying he was the only winner in the squad...it seems sometimes supporters are willing to make up their own points just to have something to argue about....?
And I dont see how it is a great post. he seems to have just made up his own points and answered them himself. how is that great? I said keane was a winner(as evidanced by his medal haul) and he goes off on one about how keane is not the only winner. who said he was? and thats a great post? then he defends himself against accusations of being an ole ole head when nobody accused him of it but himself? again how is that a great post?? He goes on about keane having personal issues with Macarthy and conveniantly leaves out fact macarthy felt the same about Keane. how is that a good post?

[Billsthoughts]

A point which people often overlook in the Keane / McCarthy debate is that Keane has done exactly that (ie stand up and slaughter them in front of a large audience) to others, including Ferguson ... the problem (if you regard it as a problem) for Keane is that he is so comprehensive and so unequivical and so accurate it puts the manager in a very awkward position because it challenges the traditional manager / player relationship. And for the record Ferguson dealt with Keane in exactly the same way as McCarthy.

Not exactly true...Ferguson was pragmatic enough to let a lot slide with Keane while he was getting something out of him. When he wanted rid he got rid. He put Man Us best interests ahead of his own. Macarthy should have put the interests of his country ahead of his own personal feelings. If macarthy made the right decision in sending him home then I fail to see how Keane let his country down and Macarthy didnt.

[Emmet]

Sorry Bill but it is true. It came to me through a first teamer at United. He did to Ferguson more or less what he did to McCarthy. Within 48 hours he was no longer a United player.

[Billsthoughts]

Well I am not going to argue with your source or not.
Fact is he let a lot slide before that when keane was playin well. He got rid of him when he was past it and it was hardly the same as sending him home when lets face it he was at the very top of his game. Anyways I think both of them messed up. But thats it. It was just an argument between two people who work with each other. happens every day. It doesnt change fact that Macarthy wasnt/isnt a good manager and Keane was a great player. I dont understand peoples sense of betrayal by Keane and the anger they have over this incident 4 years on. If that is the worst that ever happens you in life then lucky you.

[Emmet]

Yeah - I agree with a lot of that actually. Stuff like that does go on every day and there are ways to deal with it and ways not to deal with it. The point I was making re Ferguson is merely that Keane has 'lost it' with others too ... I'm not trying to legitimise anything McCarthy did / didn't do. I remember in Cascarino's book (I think) he said that professional footballers are one of the most insecure group of people you're ever likely to meet ... perhaps he should have included managers in that too! It is a shame that Roy Keane, who should be remembered as one of our greatest ever footballers, will probably be remembered more for the 2002 WC. That really is a shame because he was a genuinely class player.

[NeilMcD]

Bills thoughts not every point I or Owls fan made is directly related to an opinion you hold or a post you have made. One is entitled to make more general points in relation to the wider debate. I dont agree with a lot of what owls fans says but in this regard I agreed with him which I am entitled to do. However what owls fans never does is stoop to the level of making personal comments.

[geysir]

It was just an argument between two people who work with each other. happens every day.
I suppose you could say that if you hadn't the slightest interest in the national team, did not glance at any newspaper or tv anywhere around the globe for those days or if you live in Ireland were in a coma for a few years.

[bennocelt]

Was alan cork not a striker?

yeah you were right, my mistake

[Billsthoughts]

Bills thoughts not every point I or Owls fan made is directly related to an opinion you hold or a post you have made. One is entitled to make more general points in relation to the wider debate. I dont agree with a lot of what owls fans says but in this regard I agreed with him which I am entitled to do. However what owls fans never does is stoop to the level of making personal comments.

which I presume is a personal comment directed at me?:rolleyes:
He is entitled to make as many points as he wants. but if he is going to quote my post he infers that he is answering points I made which I never did.

geysir I dont know what your point is? a disagreement is a disagreement regardless of whether papers report it. Fact that all seem to have buried the hatchet to some extent only goes to underline that. they had a row and with time they gained some perspective on it. suggest others on here should do the same.

[NeilMcD]

No personal comment about you at all. I dont do that.

[Billsthoughts]

Thats grand. apology accepted Neil.

[Den Perry]

yeah you were right, my mistake

sorry, i didnt mean to come across as a know it all

[bennocelt]

sorry, i didnt mean to come across as a know it all


no
i knew that

it would be cool if you could get a pic of him with that beard though

[NeilMcD]

Thats grand. apology accepted Neil.

I did not apologise to you just said I was not making a personal comment about you.

[gustavo]

no
i knew that

it would be cool if you could get a pic of him with that beard though

http://www.safc.com/uploads/images/oct_06/safc_1162066095_keanehull150.jpg

[Billsthoughts]

I did not apologise to you just said I was not making a personal comment about you.

no you did....
its okay Neil..to err is human , to forgive is divine...

[NeilMcD]

Bill I think you are behaving very strangely. I did not once say in my post about that I was sorry. I was just clarifying to you that I was not making a personal dig at you as you seemed to have taken it that way. That is not an apology as I had nothing to apologise for.

[Billsthoughts]

Bill I think you are behaving very strangely. I did not once say in my post about that I was sorry. I was just clarifying to you that I was not making a personal dig at you as you seemed to have taken it that way. That is not an apology as I had nothing to apologise for.

Yes and I accept your apology and I forgive you. Can we please just move on?

[NeilMcD]

You are unreal a guy clarifies that they are not having a go at you and you continue to **** stir and wind up. I come on here to talk about football but you clearly come on here to wind people up. As I said the only thing sadder than somebody who posts on a messageboard is somebody who winds up people on a messageboard.

[The Swordsman]

Yes and I accept your apology and I forgive you. Can we please just move on?

If only this had happened in Saipan ;)

[Billsthoughts]

You are unreal a guy clarifies that they are not having a go at you and you continue to **** stir and wind up. I come on here to talk about football but you clearly come on here to wind people up. As I said the only thing sadder than somebody who posts on a messageboard is somebody who winds up people on a messageboard.

Hardly...I just accepted your apology. how is that winding you up? (and you are the one being personal with the above Neil) anyway just let it go. PM me if you wish to clarify any further apologies.

[Donal81]

Hardly...I just accepted your apology. how is that winding you up? (and you are the one being personal with the above Neil) anyway just let it go. PM me if you wish to clarify any further apologies.

Give it up mate, it's getting tiring.

[theworm2345]

Wolves vs Sunderland is live on Sky and Setanta I think Friday, November 24th

[Emmet]

Hardly...I just accepted your apology. how is that winding you up? (and you are the one being personal with the above Neil) anyway just let it go. PM me if you wish to clarify any further apologies.

Grow up

[Billsthoughts]

Give it up mate, it's getting tiring.


Grow up

I will take your feelings on board...

[osarusan]

I will take your feelings on board...

As a person who is trying to make serious points on this thread, this childish crap will not endear you to anybody or help your cause.

[Billsthoughts]

ah would ya give it a rest..
some people would want to get a sense of humour..its only a message board about football ffs...get over it.

[Den Perry]

ah would ya give it a rest..
some people would want to get a sense of humour..its only a message board about football ffs...get over it.

agreed

[Stuttgart88]

At the weekend I heard that a friend's husband has just "resigned" as moderator of a James Bond forum, due to the viciousness of the anti-Daniel Craig postings, and the virtual civil war that ensued.

Oddly enough, it reminded me of foot.ie!

[Donal81]

ah would ya give it a rest..
some people would want to get a sense of humour..its only a message board about football ffs...get over it.

I've a weird sense of humour. It tends to respond to funny stuff and ignore childish rubbish.
:rolleyes:

[geysir]

Who does Daniel Craig play for?

[Billsthoughts]

I've a weird sense of humour. It tends to respond to funny stuff and ignore childish rubbish.
:rolleyes:

yes your sense of humour shines thru in your posts...:rolleyes:

[Stuttgart88]

Who does Daniel Craig play for? MI5 I think. Or is it MI6?

[Emmet]

MI5 I think. Or is it MI6?

Last I heard he was in their reserves

[Donal81]

yes your sense of humour shines thru in your posts...:rolleyes:

Whatever mate, couldn't be bothered with this.