Staunton & FAI insult to eL players

[osarusan]

I'd feel more represented by a team including Kevin Hunt than one composed of journeyman pros from mediocre British clubs who have never contributed anything to Irish football.

Who do you include in that blanket statement? Robbie Keane? Duff? Everybody?


Of course several eL players would have done better than many of those internationals last night. A whole team of eL players would not have lost by 3 goals to Cyprus. I know international football is a step up but the eL style of play as improved a lot in recent years with top players getting 6 games in europe every year.


Given that the best eircom league players invariably leave the el for leagues of a higher level, namely the English leagues (usually), How can you back up that statement? Quoting a club game is not a relevant factor in this caseas you have just said that international football is a step up.

Like you, I am annoyed that the el is overlooked by so many people, it deserves more attention and recent european results show great improvements in the quality, but lets not kid ourselves into thinking it is better than it is.

[pete]

Given that the best eircom league players invariably leave the el for leagues of a higher level, namely the English leagues (usually), How can you back up that statement? Quoting a club game is not a relevant factor in this caseas you have just said that international football is a step up.


Kevin Doyle.

[osarusan]

What about him?

He left the el for a league of a higher level.

[pete]

He left the el for a league of a higher level.

Did he become that much better overnight?

Based on your logic the top 22 players based on the english league pyramid would be picked for squads.

[mypost]

He left the el for a league of a higher level.

The English Championship is a higher level? :confused: News to me.

He left the NL so he would be qualified to play international football.

[osarusan]

Did he become that much better overnight?

Based on your logic the top 22 players based on the english league pyramid would be picked for squads.


Not overnight, but gradually it became clear that he could play at a higher level, and he transferred.

By my logic, we would pick the best 22 players we have in any league. I dont think there would be any from the el.




The English Championship is a higher level? :confused: News to me.


Glad I could help to educate you.

[OneRedArmy]

This
Not overnight, but gradually it became clear that he could play at a higher level, and he transferred.does not agree with this

By my logic, we would pick the best 22 players we have in any league. I dont think there would be any from the el.unless you subscribe to the theory that Doyle suddenly became Roy of the Rovers on the plane over to Reading.

[osarusan]

The time between Doyle leaving Cork (June 2005), and making his debut for Ireland (March 2006) is 9 months. I think it isnt unreasonable to think that in those 9 months he learned things about the game which helped him improve. I am pretty confident he has a higher level of fitness also.

Dont get me wrong. I am a supporter of the eircom league. I dont like the way a player needs to be abroad before he can be considered for the squad, except for token gestures.

But I dont subscribe to the notion that a team of eircom league players would have performed better that the players did last night.

Now I've been in Japan for 5 years, and consequently didnt see the game last night, but I've kept up pretty well through internet and this forum, and I know the standard has been raised in that time. But I dont think it has reached the standard that eircom league players can competently replace premiership / championship players.

[mypost]

The time between Doyle leaving Cork (June 2005), and making his debut for Ireland (March 2006) is 9 months. I think it isnt unreasonable to think that in those 9 months he learned things about the game which helped him improve.

He got into the squad after 4 months, half of which were in the English off-season. Every player in every league, improves after 9 months.


I am pretty confident he has a higher level of fitness also.

The full-time fitness programmes at Reading are different to the ones at Cork in what way? :confused:

[pete]

He got into the squad after 4 months, half of which were in the English off-season. Every player in every league, improves after 9 months.

Exactly, sure he improved each year he was at Cork City anyway as that tends to happen with quality young players. Even Doyle himself said he hadn't improved from his eL days.

He is possibly Irelands greatest potential player at the moment too. He shows maturity that most the irish squad never had at his ages or never will which is all down to his eL experience.

[BohDiddley]

What goes around, comes around. Tonight's result was the culmination of 30-odd years hoping that British clubs would provide us with internationals while Irish football just curled up and died.
Maybe someone, somewhere, with a brain and some imagination will realise that we need to develop the game at home to provide the national team with any hope of a sustainable future rather than hoping for a few decent players to grow from the weeds here at home and get plucked by British clubs.
Totally agree.
Tragically, you have to come on a message board to read what is blindingly obvious to anyone with a whit of common sense and knowledge of football.
The era of Ireland relying on British clubs to stock our national team is over. We are scraping the bottom of the barrel of English football, and we have no depth. Garry Doyle on RTE today was clear on this point, but no one yet has made the next logical step in their thinking. A properly established national league is the only answer in the long term.
I feel sorry (well, a little bit of me does) for Stan and (some) of the players. They are being put in the stocks for something that was inevitable, once English football went global.

[Poor Student]

While the neglect and rot in our domestic game is upsetting and regrettable, there were players out there that were more than capable of beating Cyprus had they been organised in a proper manner. I don't think I could see the same thing happening other under managers with the exact same players. Staunton seems to have no clue tactically and is an utterly uninspiring personality. People point out eL players that could perform better than some of the players last night. How would those players settle in the eL? Any small country that draws all of their players from the domestic league tends to be poor. Is it not preferable that all of our starting IX play in the Premiership as opposed to the eL as it is an indicator of the strength of our playing pool?:confused: Lack of passion, organisation etc. falls with the team management, not the state of the domestic game.

[BohDiddley]

s last night. How would those players settle in the eL? Any small country that draws all of their players from the domestic league tends to be poor. Is it not preferable that all of our starting IX play in the Premiership as opposed to the eL as it is an indicator of the strength of our playing pool?:confused: Lack of passion, organisation etc. falls with the team management, not the state of the domestic game.
Yes, but if we had a better national league, we would have better players at the top of the game. It might still be that none would play in that league, having been poached by bungiership, but we would have a greater overall standard and much more depth.
Lack of passion also has to do, I think, with the pampering of top players in England and the mercenary culture that has arisen there recently.

[BohDiddley]

Just found this (http://www.bohemian-fc.com/home/features/a_league_apart/)on BFC site.

[Mr A]

I can't believe that there's people who feel that the EL is better than the championship in England. It has one of the highest levels of support of any league in Europe, contains a large number of internationals and all the teams have large squad of professionals.

We have at most 5 full-time clubs, attendances are woeful and considering the wages on offer wouldn't a lot more players be moving to England if they were good enough?

Yes the league has made some progress, but some perspective must be kept as well.

[Aaron]

Just found this on BFC site.

I agree with most of it bar having Alan Moore in and no Kevin Deery. Great choice of manager eh!!

[hoopy]

I can't believe that there's people who feel that the EL is better than the championship in England.

You may have a point but from an Irish perspective I've no doubt that the best X1 Irish players in the EL would beat the best X1 Irish players in the Championship

[MervilleUnited]

They are being put in the stocks for something that was inevitable, once English football went global.

Gentlemen (And Indeed ladies!) that sums up the issue!

1990: Over 100 kids went to england on contracts
2006: Less than 10

I am afraid that we are in for the long haul. Scotland have neen down the hole, and seem to have made a comeback. By massive investment by the Scottish Executive in facilities and coaching. A revitalised EL, properly funded, is must as an end product of proper coaching programme. Also, the era of the volunteer is dead. (Maybe for another thread- Tax relief for volunteer work with kids).

Throw in the fact that half our talent are playing (And indeed watching, to the detriment of the EL) Native Games. That percentage is not in Germany, Ceczh Republic, Slovakia, Cyprus et al.

Its back to Basics. That said, Lawrie Sanchez seems to be getting performances from journeymen. Are we back to the old era of eoin hand being a waterboy (And told that by the players) instead of a manager?


By the way, who is this guy in the betting with Paddy Power to score for ireland on wed?
:eek: J Tabb :eek:

[Billy Lord]

Look at how Dutch football developed from the early 1960s once Rinus Michels got his way. Previously, they were worse than us, both in terms of club and international football, but once the change of emphasis occured they grew to being recognised as a great football nation and have maintained a respctable status. If you control the means of production, you are in control full stop. Karl Marx's analysis of the industrial revolution is ideal for football.
Irish schoolboy clubs are only interested in sending kids to England rather than develop talent, and as long as EL clubs renege on that responsibility we are at the mercy of other, outside forces.
If EL clubs spent more of their meagre resources on coaching kids rather than on mercenary players we'd reap a huge benefit within ten years.
That's how we see it at Shamrock Rovers and I can't think of a reason for not going down that route. It's all about the future if you love the game and your club.

[Marked Man]

It does help that the Dutch have a load of ex-colonies.

[CollegeTillIDie]

Well perhaps the EL players not being selected situation will be solved for us.
The G14 have taken a case against FIFA and UEFA, which if they win,will see the parent National Associations having to pay wages of players called up to international duty, and compensate the clubs when players get injured.
The FAI will not be able to afford the exhorbitant, and quite frankly wasted money, paid to Premiership players.
Therefore we will be forced to call up EL full-time professionals.

In the meantime we face a Czech Republic side led by Spirelike forward Jan Koller and Milan Baros in rampant form. With let's face it the worst defence in the group bar San Marino( minus Richard Dunne), no defensive midfielder, and a clueless manager. If we lose by less than 6-0 it will be a feather in Staunton's cap.

[CollegeTillIDie]

It does help that the Dutch have a load of ex-colonies.

Well we have benefitted in the past by the parentage and grandparentage rule which in it's own way was our version of having colonies. The Dutch use colonies we use diaspora. In twenty years people such as Zbigniew Szebowski and his fellow Dublin/Irish born Slavic people will be eligible to play as will Wednesday Ogoboya and his fellow Irish born people of Nigerian origin. And then we might have a good team. But it will take that long.

In Women's soccer , the Irish have also called up players born in the USA by this route. USA has won two Olympic Gold medals and two World Cups in the Women's Game and were for many years #1 ranked nation on earth.

[CollegeTillIDie]

Paddy Kenny
2 starts : Goals conceded 9 Goals Against Average 4.5

Now it's not Paddy's fault we suddenly have a $hit defence however.....

Conclusion, we need to score 5 to get a draw !

[CollegeTillIDie]

Who is Jay Tabb? I think he may have played for Ireland at Underage level but I am not 100% sure about that.

[CollegeTillIDie]

Yes all these EL players who play in the EL for a pittance are better than the players playing last night on 20k a week more in some cases.

EL players play in the EL for a reason, last night Ireland had a decent 11 out. There were some good players there, fact remains they hadnt a ****ing clue what to do.

Looking at Aston Villa as an example of how a team can change with a decent manager in charge. It doesnt matter what 11 is out EL or PL based if they dont ****ing play for Ireland or have a manager who has a ****ing clue about how to manage, your fairly ****ed from the word go.


/Billy Lord that was the weirdest PM i have ever got sorry for you loss :confused:



kdjac



Quite clearly you are not up to speed.
There are at least 4 full-time professional clubs nowadays in the EL.
They play for teams that regularly play against European Opposition.
A higher standard than that experienced by Coca-Cola Championship Players and people playing in Reserve team football cross-channel.

Cork City played Apollon Limassol in the Champions League Qualifiers
And beat them over two legs. There were a number of Apollon Limassol players in the Cyprus squad and indeed team on Saturday.
Conclusion, the Cork City defence and midfield would not have conceded 5 against their national team.

And let's not forget one thing. If Cyprus had actually taken all of their chances it would have been 10-2!

[CollegeTillIDie]

Boh Diddley

Thanks for the link to Stephen Moore's piece. Have to agree that team and 16 would have done a lot better. I will refer to a post I put on another thread.
If we had an All-Ireland team going out to face the Czechs on Wednesday, given that Richard Dunne is unavailable and Shay Given is injured and Robbie Keane and Damien Duff are largely incapable of influencing a game,on current form the All-Ireland team would be all NORTHERNERS!

[ifk101]

Who is Jay Tabb? I think he may have played for Ireland at Underage level but I am not 100% sure about that.

He's an U21 international that was recommended to Stan by Don Givens. Stan has never seen Tabb play a competitive match.

[Poor Student]

I think what has happened more than anything in Scotland is that the clubs stopped bringing in overpaid Bosman mercenaries. Clubs like Hearts, Hibs, Aberdeen, Motherwell, Dundee and Dundee United filled their clubs with overpaid underperforming foreigners in an attempt to catch up with the Old Firm. The Old Firm, particularly Rangers were guilty of this too. This held back the blooding through of Scottish youngsters. There's basically a generation of any decent Scottish players missing from the 1998 World Cup with the likes John Collins, Paul Lambert, Tom Boyd, Kevin Gallagher, Colin Hendry etc. to the current one. The only major player to come through in between is Barry Ferguson. Most clubs nearly bankrupted themselves with overspending and missing the boat to get a new Sky TV deal and clubs like Hibs, Aberdeen and Motherwell had to essentially go right back to the youths and slash the expenses. Almost UCD type models. Even Celtic and Rangers had to bring through more youngsters the likes of Hutton, Smith, Burke, Maloney, Beattie, McManus etc. There's a stream of young Scottish talent coming through who were also developed well by the former Scots U-21 Rainer Bonhoff (the one success of Vogts' regime). Though we're comparable to Scotland in size, our domestic leagues are not comparable. Scotland's top clubs i.e. the Old Firm are actually capable of signing and retaining the nation's top talents. Scotland's problem in domestic soccer was overpaid foreign mercenaries, ours is mercenary xenophilic fans.

[bigmac]

Quite clearly you are not up to speed.
There are at least 4 full-time professional clubs nowadays in the EL.
They play for teams that regularly play against European Opposition.
A higher standard than that experienced by Coca-Cola Championship Players and people playing in Reserve team football cross-channel.

Cork City played Apollon Limassol in the Champions League Qualifiers
And beat them over two legs. There were a number of Apollon Limassol players in the Cyprus squad and indeed team on Saturday.
Conclusion, the Cork City defence and midfield would not have conceded 5 against their national team.

And let's not forget one thing. If Cyprus had actually taken all of their chances it would have been 10-2!

I don't know about regularly playing CTID - in fairness, 4 or 6 games a year hardly constitutes regular competition against a higher level. While there were Cypriot based players in the team, there were also players who are playing regular Champions League football.
I don't think that the EL is a panacea to heal all wounds, but I have to agree with the sentiment that Staunton got his team setup completely wrong. It's ironic that not one of those journalists who criticised Kerr for being conservative has noted that being adventurous and playing 5 attacking players gets us beaten 5-2 by Cyprus. Good piece by Mark Lawrenson in the IT today about it - fairly reasoned view about how the players just aren't good enough.

[Rory H]

whatever about players....i just hope our next manager is stephen kenny...of course it wont be ...it will be someone like souness or o leary..or some other waster who is half washed up........i guess international and league football will just remain completly seperate from each other....

[CuanaD]

Just found this (http://www.bohemian-fc.com/home/features/a_league_apart/)on BFC site.

Good team that - & you can see from the article how much strength-in-depth there would be in the team too:ball:



Personally I'm all for the conspiracy theory - the FAI will not let the senior manager pick multiple eL players for the squad, UNTIL the eL comes fully under the FAI control - they have always resented the fact that the eL was a (slightly) seperate entity & therefore looked down on the league.
That & the fact that the suits ALL seem to support foreign teams:mad: & love their junkets

[Soper]

I will say this, I watch Cardiff City at every home match, and there is no doubting that Cork, Derry, Shels, Drogs (with Sligo Rovers and Bohs next season) would hold their own in that league.People go on about EL players just being failed english lower league players, but there are an array of players in the Championship now who have failed at championship or league one standard, gone to league two or the conference, and ended up back in the championship playing regularly.Derry would beat Wolves. Luton, Coventry out of the teams I have seen come to Ninian Park this season.This is fact.

[lofty9]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/wear/6032905.stm

Off in a tangent but related to the eircom league in regards to irish people/fans. I despair.:( . It would be great if we could concentrate on getting 10% extra to Eircom League games. I actually cringed with embarrassment reading this.

[Soper]

In addition to that, Irish people are starting to support Cardiff now as well.

[bluemovie]

Based on their European performances, I have no doubt that Derry City wouldn't have lost to Cyprus. They play as a team.

Saturday probably ranks as the most humiliating day in the history of Irish sport. Don't let anyone tell you Cyprus aren't bad. They're rubbish. I go to all of Ireland's home games and sing/shout as loudly as anyone, but I've felt a little detached from the team since Staunton took charge. Before kick off, I told my mates it would be a good game between two evenly-balanced, equally-bad teams. It was for the first half, but they destroyed us in the second.

The players should be ashamed of themselves, but I still think we have enough quality to be able to qualify for major tournaments (not this one now). A decent manager would get a whole lot more from the Duffs and Keanes. Player-for-player, we are better than the likes of Switzerland.

The FAI made the wrong choice. Stan's an honourable man so hopefully, he'll step down at the end of the week (I predict a battling 2 goal defeat to the Czechs). There are plenty of decent managers out there who would jump at the chance of managing Ireland.

[stann]

Now I've been in Japan for 5 years, and consequently didnt see the game last night, but I've kept up pretty well through internet and this forum, and I know the standard has been raised in that time. But I dont think it has reached the standard that eircom league players can competently replace premiership / championship players.

Not over the course of a few games, or a season, Osarusan, but in that one match, they would not have had to play to even anywhere near their potential to have been better than 7 or 8 of those in a green shirt on Saturday. Ireland weren't just beaten well, they allowed Cyprus to out-class them, in fact allowed the Cypriots to take the complete mick out of them for some of the goals. Try to get hold of a recording of the game because you will not believe your eyes.
You're right that the eL has not reached that standard, but it is equally right that the Irish team's performance dipped to way below that standard on the night. Truly shocking.

[bigmac]

The players should be ashamed of themselves, but I still think we have enough quality to be able to qualify for major tournaments (not this one now). A decent manager would get a whole lot more from the Duffs and Keanes. Player-for-player, we are better than the likes of Switzerland.


I'd have to disagree with you there bluemovie - I think that people who rubbished Switzerland were those who were swayed by the hype around the premiership and the fact that in comparison, we know very little about the other European leagues - look at the furore that surrounded Owen Hargreaves in England - all because the press assumed that the Bundesliga was nowhere near the standard of the Premiership.
Switzerland could call on players from Arsenal and AC Milan as well as a host of players playing in the Bundesliga - why should we assume that players who struggle to get their game in the Premiership should be better than them?

What we have to remember is that for every Machester United or Chelsea in the Premiership, there's a Watford, or a Sheffield United, and unfortunately, aside from a few notable exceptions - it is the lower teams that Irish players play for.

[centre mid]

the problem is clear here, and its the gob****e who hired stan.

Probably the most important point,

Stan was never the right man, why was Bobby Robson appointed, the FAI and Delaney in particular needs to take a long hard look at what its Mission Statement is and what it wants to achieve

Is getting a shiney new stadium to host the Uefa cup final the most important thing?

[osarusan]

Not over the course of a few games, or a season, Osarusan, but in that one match, they would not have had to play to even anywhere near their potential to have been better than 7 or 8 of those in a green shirt on Saturday. .
You're right that the eL has not reached that standard, but it is equally right that the Irish team's performance dipped to way below that standard on the night. Truly shocking.

Good post stann, whats an intelligent fellow like you doing on this site?:D

As I said, the fact I havent seen the game, or any recent game for that matter, and if they were that bad, well..............

[pete]

When you see the likes of Tabb & St Ledger in the irish squad, players with minimal Championship experience in england you have to think that irish managers are biased against the eL.

St Ledger was in League Two last year & tabb never excelled in the irish U21s - he looked like fat Andy Reid to me & certainly Ward & o'Donovan performed much better.

[EalingGreen]

I didn't see the Cyprus game (in Copenhagen) and don't know about standards in the Eircom. It may be that a team of EL players might have done much better against Cyprus.
However, if the "solution" to Cyprus is to pick EL players in significant numbers, then sooner rather than later, they will come up against international teams with players who are fitter, more skillful, more experienced, better coached AND equally highly motivated.
Then the EL players will get found out.
People are citing (the excellent) Kevin Doyle and the success of Derry City, Shelbourne etc as proof of EL strength, but outside of the top/richest 8 or 10 clubs in England, there are 80 professional clubs who are all desperate for the next Kevin Doyle. At least some of these will have been looking closely at the Eircom and will be able to make money offers that both clubs and players won't be able to refuse. Why haven't they been snapping up players? I don't see how it can just be down to their (English) parochialism/ignorance/prejudice etc, otherwise why haven't overseas clubs, such as PSG, also been moving in? I feel this can only be that Doyle and one or two others are the exception that prove the rule, as I've observed in Irish League football over the years.

As for the future development of young players for the international team through a more professional Eircom set-up, of course it would help ROI football in all aspects if the Eircom and its clubs were to improve. However, the key to producing international players lies not with who they sign for at 16 or 17; rather, the crucial aspect is how they're taught the game long before that. (According to Arsene Wenger, if kids haven't mastered the very basics before they are 11 or 12, it's almost certainly already too late for them to become absolutely top class. This is why he is now looking beyond even France or the rest of Europe, to find players for Arsenal from Africa and the former French colonies, where he is being offered the cream of "graduates" from well-organised Academies, which school huge numbers of talented and desperate young kids)

Of course, if talented, well-coached young teenagers are being produced in the ROI, then it is in their interests (and the national team's), if they then proceed to the environment which will best take them to the next level. It may be that individual EL clubs might be able to do that on a consistent basis, but with a population of 3.5 million, it's hard to see more than one or two clubs reaching that level. After all, Scotland with over 5 million, over 20 full-time clubs and a much greater history, can only produce 4 or 5 clubs of any note in this respect.
Therefore, unless or until continental clubs start to visit the ROI for young talent (now that they're scouring pretty much the rest of the world), then England, with a population of 50 million supporting 100 professional clubs, is the obvious destination for 90% of good young prospective internationals.

As for what is to be done with the ROI team in the short-term, I have to say that those posters who have been excoriating the present players are probably misplaced in their criticisms. The likes of O'Shea, Keane, McGeady and Duff haven't suddenly lost their ability, unless you think judges such as Ferguson, Jol, Strachan and Roeder are fools for picking them each week for their clubs.
And as for the "supporting cast", even if these are weaker than in previous years (and not helped by injuries), then they still surely should be good enough to beat the likes of Cyprus.
I say that on the basis of watching NI in recent matches. Against Denmark, for example, our opponents played for Villa, Liverpool and Fulham from the English Prem; Stuttgart, Schalke and W.Bremen from the Bundesliga; Seville from the Primera Liga; Auxerre from Ligue 1 and Fiorentina from Serie A. The remaining two play for 1 FC Copenhagen, Denmark's top club, who have qualified for the Group Stages of the Champions League, eliminating Ajax along the way.
By contrast, the NI team was as follows:
Taylor - 36 y.o. keeper at Birmingham;
Duff - Burnley Centre Back, but played at right back;
Craigan - Motherwell (says it all, really);
Hughes - Villa Right Back, played at Centre Back;
Evans - 18 year old Centre Back, never played a compeitive game for MU, currently on loan to a Belgian 2nd Division club. Oh, and played out of position at Left Back. (Could just be the next Paul McGrath, mind. Only better. And ours!)
Gillespie - veteran winger playing occasionally for Sheff U;
Davis - fair enough, already absolute Star player. Only God knows how far he'll go under Martin O'Neill;
Clingan - 22 year old at Forest (English "third" division), cuffed 4-0 at home by S****horpe on Saturday in his absence(!);
Baird - Centre Back from Southampton, played in midfield;
Healy - God the Father, Son and Holy Goalscorer, but content to "slum it" amongst His flock in the English "2nd Division";
Lafferty - was 19 last month, has started fewer games than that for Burnley, though what a prospect. As Billy Hamilton said, he'd "chase paper on a windy day", such is his effort!

Basically the Danes (ranked No.15 in the world), tried to batter us for 90 minutes, plus the six longest minutes of injury time ever known, but we held out for a point.

Therefore, it seems to me that the only difference to account for this performance over that of an ROI team with superior players, is that Sanchez basically knows what he's doing, whereas Staunton is a lemon.
And it looks for all the world like the ROI players lost confidence in Stan by the second or third match, and now they've lost confidence in themselves.
Of course, it's not for me to say what you should do about him. Personally, I'd be all for allowing him more time, if only to prove me wrong. Or, at least until NI have overtaken you in the rankings...:D

P.S. I saw a lot of Jay Tabb when he was at Brentford. He's a great little player already, and as good as any of a number of Brentford players who've recently gone on to play at a much higher level (inc.Premiership and international). His major drawback is that he's only about 5' 5". However, he's nippy enough usually to avoid trouble and his attitude, both as a player and a person is absolutely top class - Bees fans love him. Micky Adams will have seen him when he managed Brentford and Tabb was in his early teens, so it's no coincidence he was so keen to sign him for Coventry. I only wish he was one of ours!

[OneRedArmy]

I didn't see the Cyprus game (in Copenhagen) and don't know about standards in the Eircom. You could've shortened your post a fair bit and left it at that.

[EalingGreen]

You could've shortened your post a fair bit and left it at that.

Yeah, good one. Very funny.

But if you hadn't finished reading at that point, you might have realised that none of my comments about ROI and Staunton were based on the Cyprus match.
I did, however, point out that Sanchez, with inferior players, is managing to get much more from his team than Stan.
And as for the development of future ROI internationals, these were based on what other countries are doing.
As for my comments on EL clubs and their players (esp. re suitability for international duty), I pointed out that qualified judges (managers, coaches, scouts) in other professional Leagues are hardly falling over themselves to sign EL players. I might also have mentioned that Brian Kerr knows a hell of a sight about the Eircom and quite a bit about international football, and he picked v.few EL players.
My P.S. about Jay Tabb was based on having seen him play literally dozens of times over the last three seasons.

So if you've managed to concentrate beyond the first line of this post, would you like to state where you think my opinions in my post were wrong or uninformed? That is, if it's not too late and you have to get up for school tomorrow?

[OneRedArmy]

Yeah, good one. Very funny.

But if you hadn't finished reading at that point, you might have realised that none of my comments about ROI and Staunton were based on the Cyprus match.
I did, however, point out that Sanchez, with inferior players, is managing to get much more from his team than Stan.
And as for the development of future ROI internationals, these were based on what other countries are doing.
As for my comments on EL clubs and their players (esp. re suitability for international duty), I pointed out that qualified judges (managers, coaches, scouts) in other professional Leagues are hardly falling over themselves to sign EL players. I might also have mentioned that Brian Kerr knows a hell of a sight about the Eircom and quite a bit about international football, and he picked v.few EL players.
My P.S. about Jay Tabb was based on having seen him play literally dozens of times over the last three seasons.

So if you've managed to concentrate beyond the first line of this post, would you like to state where you think my opinions in my post were wrong or uninformed? That is, if it's not too late and you have to get up for school tomorrow?In your analysis of Staunton being the problem, you fail to consider the motivation of the players. The Irish team has more Premiership players & whilst this should result in a more able team than N.I., all it has resulted in is a bunch of highly paid wasters who have very little heart & no fight for the jersey.

Face it, when you're on 40 or 50k a week, where are you going to put your effort in, with your paymaster or elsewhere?

IMHO, EL players would give a lot more in the way of effort than the Premiership primadonnas, many having had to combine a job with their football in the past.

And instead of bulking the squad out with plastic paddies like St. Ledger, there are a few able EL players that would do a job.

In relation to Tabb, I`ve seen him for the U21s a few timcs & he acquited himelf fine, but no better than Deery & Ward in the same team, who, as you`ve probably guessed, are EL players.

In relation to the Cyprus game, its particularly relevant as Cork knocked their Champions League representative out this year.

[pete]

People are citing (the excellent) Kevin Doyle and the success of Derry City, Shelbourne etc as proof of EL strength, but outside of the top/richest 8 or 10 clubs in England, there are 80 professional clubs who are all desperate for the next Kevin Doyle. At least some of these will have been looking closely at the Eircom and will be able to make money offers that both clubs and players won't be able to refuse. Why haven't they been snapping up players?

Reading fluked big time when they signed Doyle. Its possible they would not have been promoted without him. I would agree with your point if he just did ok but he was voted best player in last years Championship. Coppell has since admitted he was unsure of signing Doyle even at the small fee the paid - if this doesn't show the anti-eL bias i don't what does. By your logic only when eL players deemed good enough by UK club managers are they deemed worthy of consideration. I think you need to inform yourself what by watch some eL teams in europe nest season.

[gustavo]

Face it, when you're on 40 or 50k a week, where are you going to put your effort in, with your paymaster or elsewhere?
.

Didnt do the Italians any harm

[OneRedArmy]

Didnt do the Italians any harmWas it a coincidence that they all live and play in the country they were representing?

[gustavo]

Yeah i suppose it cant have done them any harm! but your main point was about the money which im sure the Azurri arent short of.

[ifk101]

Yeah, good one. Very funny.

But if you hadn't finished reading at that point, you might have realised that none of my comments about ROI and Staunton were based on the Cyprus match.
I did, however, point out that Sanchez, with inferior players, is managing to get much more from his team than Stan.
And as for the development of future ROI internationals, these were based on what other countries are doing.
As for my comments on EL clubs and their players (esp. re suitability for international duty), I pointed out that qualified judges (managers, coaches, scouts) in other professional Leagues are hardly falling over themselves to sign EL players. I might also have mentioned that Brian Kerr knows a hell of a sight about the Eircom and quite a bit about international football, and he picked v.few EL players.
My P.S. about Jay Tabb was based on having seen him play literally dozens of times over the last three seasons.

So if you've managed to concentrate beyond the first line of this post, would you like to state where you think my opinions in my post were wrong or uninformed? That is, if it's not too late and you have to get up for school tomorrow?

The main point here is that League of Ireland football shouldn't be ignored when it comes to the national team. Whatever about LOI players being good or not enough for a starting position in the national side, they're certainly deserving of places in the squad.

I think you are misguided when you say that other professional leagues aren't falling over themselves to sign LOI players. League of Ireland matches are heavily scouted by British clubs and two Scandinavian clubs have placed quite substantial bids on LOI players in the recent past. The league has also schooled a number of "high"-profile managers in the past, not least it was the managerial birthplace of one Lawrie Sanchez.

Ireland's population (The Republic) is over 4 million and pretty much the same as Norway's. Norway has had teams in the Champions League in the past, currently has teams at the same level as FCK (Copenhagen), and has teams that needed 12 penalties to get by a LOI side into the first-round proper of the UEFA Cup. And honestly, we are already at the same level as the Scottish Premier Division but as you say you know nothing. Just of note - as pointed out by somebody else in this thread - our best U21 players are playing in the LOI. Surely this shows that regular first-team football is better for player development that the fields of an academy farm in Britain? But should I direct this question at you - as you have said you know nothing?

Ireland has the players to put out a number of teams capable of beating the Cypiot national side. End of story and Stan OUT!

Northern Ireland has shown us that ten players behind the ball can get a 0-0 draw in Copenhagen, and that playing on the counter at home can get a win against Spain. (Northern Ireland should be highly commended for beating the Spanish - Sweden literally copied the North's tactics in that match when they beat Spain Saturday night with both their goals coming, you guessed it, on the counter). Northern Ireland has also shown us that a team with limited technical ability is unable to steer the pace of a match and put all expectation and hype on "ice", so to speak. Ireland is being shown a lesson by the North - organisation and tactics go a long way in international football but as expectations rise, lack of technical ability will be caught out. An LOI manager knows this, that's why Sanchez says Wednesday night is a much tougher game than the one in Copehagen because the North is expected to go out and win.

[EalingGreen]

The main point here is that League of Ireland football shouldn't be ignored when it comes to the national team. Whatever about LOI players being good or not enough for a starting position in the national side, they're certainly deserving of places in the squad.

I think you are misguided when you say that other professional leagues aren't falling over themselves to sign LOI players. League of Ireland matches are heavily scouted by British clubs and two Scandinavian clubs have placed quite substantial bids on LOI players in the recent past. The league has also schooled a number of "high"-profile managers in the past, not least it was the managerial birthplace of one Lawrie Sanchez.

Ireland's population (The Republic) is over 4 million and pretty much the same as Norway's. Norway has had teams in the Champions League in the past, currently has teams at the same level as FCK (Copenhagen), and has teams that needed 12 penalties to get by a LOI side into the first-round proper of the UEFA Cup. And honestly, we are already at the same level as the Scottish Premier Division but as you say you know nothing. Just of note - as pointed out by somebody else in this thread - our best U21 players are playing in the LOI. Surely this shows that regular first-team football is better for player development that the fields of an academy farm in Britain? But should I direct this question at you - as you have said you know nothing?

Ireland has the players to put out a number of teams capable of beating the Cypiot national side. End of story and Stan OUT!


If you bring players into a squad, it must be on the basis that they can step up to the mark and compete consistently, if need be. There may well be one or two individuals in the EL who could do so, but I find it very hard to believe that it is many more than that. This opinion derives from the fact that despite being "heavily scouted" by GB and Continental clubs (as you say) very few are actually being bought - "Show me the Money" is what counts.
A succession of ROI managers have declined to pick EL players over the years, inc. Brian Kerr. Are you saying he didn't know their worth, or was prejudiced against them?
In recent years, NI has resorted to trying some of our top IL players - e.g. Gary Hamilton, Glenn Ferguson and Peter Thompson. These are hardly significantly poorer than their EL counterparts, yet they have been consistently found wanting.
I note that Pat McCourt is in Derry's team, with Patrick Jennings Jr. challenging for the keeper's spot. McCourt (widely recognised as one of the most talented players in the EL), had his chance in England, without hacking it. At Rochdale. And for a young keeper, no name opens doors quicker than PJ Jnr's. He's had contracts and trials galore at all levels in England and wasn't even good enough for non-League.
As for the impressive exploits of Shelbourne and Derry City, fair enough. However, consider this: in recent years, Millwall got to an FA Cup Final and Wycombe to the Semi-Final, ahead of many "big" clubs. Where are they now? How many top players emerged from either team? Tim Cahill for one, plus a couple more at a lower level.
And who are these "high profile" managers the EL has schooled? Sanchez is v.highly qualified, but this stems from his taking a University Degree whilst playing for Reading, followed by post-graduate Management qualifications and Coaching Badges whilst at Wimbledon etc. Sure, his first actual job was at Sligo, but how long was he there? Martin O'Neill's first managerial post was at Grantham Town, followed by Shepshed Charterhouse FC. Are you saying they, or Non-League Football, "produced" him?

As for the EL being on the same level as the SPL, that's laughable. It may be that the top couple of EL clubs might be on a par with the bottom couple of SPL clubs, but they don't even come close to e.g. Hearts, Hibs or Aberdeen, never mind Celtic - recent UEFA Finalists, or Rangers - CL Group competitors.
Compare the revenues, stadia, trophies, salaries, international signings etc. When Claudio Caniggia signs for the EL equivalent of Rangers or Dundee, or Henrik Larsson for the EL's Celtic, let me know - I'll be over to watch.

As for your best U-21 players being in the EL, I'm sure that is true. But is it because the EL has improved sufficiently to keep these youngsters from being lured to England, or is it because English clubs are now signing young players from every country in the world, so that even the best of young Irish players don't get a look in? Scott Carson is currently the England U-21 keeper. Last season he was hardly Liverpool's third choice, behind Reyna, Dudek and Kirkland.
Of course, you may well be right that regular EL football may be a better schooling than English Academies. But having received this schooling, how many are pushing on beyond the EL, either in England or further afield?

Anyhow, I'll agree with you on one point, the ROI should be able to put out three teams to beat Cyprus. But if Stan couldn't manage it with his first choice, how on earth could he do it with his third choice?