View Full Version : Work continues at Corrib gas terminal site
Gardaí in north Co Mayo have moved to break up the blockade mounted by local residents at the entrance to the Corrib gas terminal site in Bellanaboy.
The protestors have been blocking the site around the clock ever since Shell tried to resume construction work at the terminal last week.
However, they say hundreds of gardaí moved in this morning and carried them away from their positions.
Spokesperson Maura Harrington has accused the authorities of doing Shell's dirty work by clearing a path for construction workers to return to the site.
Breakingnews
(http://www.breakingnews.ie/2006/10/03/story279331.html)
This has slipped back into the news. I know the protestors will complain but can't see how the gardai could allow them illegally block access to private land.
dahamsta
03/10/2006, 7:31 PM
I have to confess, I broke my hole laughing when I heard they were protesting by reciting the rosary.
Strabane_Harp
03/10/2006, 7:49 PM
This kind of thing could turn into a major issue if an election comes around
BohsPartisan
04/10/2006, 8:04 AM
I know the protestors will complain but can't see how the gardai could allow them illegally block access to private land.
The Gardaí will do their job. That job is to protect the interests of multinational corporations against the interests of ordinary people. There should be no surprise at the actions of the gardaí. There should be no surprise at the hypocricy of an organisation that is up to its eyes in corruption (Morris Tribunal).
"The state is the management committee for the affairs of the ruling class" - Marx
Lenin - The State and Revolution - Section on the police, courts etc (http://www.marxist.net/lenin/staterev/ch01.htm#s2)
Indymedia report with photos (http://www.indymedia.ie/article/78788)
liam88
04/10/2006, 11:11 AM
Disgusting really -the Gardai doing the dirty work of one of the biggest human rights abusers in the world. At least the Irish government haven't let Shell break up the protests using their own police force (as in Nigeria) but hey it's one step closer! :mad:
It's sad that the government is letting any multinational rape Ireland but especially Shell -and having raised nothing about past human rights issues. The Dail was one of the first parliaments to hear speeches from the Ogoni over Hell's actions in Nigeria and to pressure Shell over it.....how things have changed :(
By the way Adam what is so funny about protestors reciting the Rosary? Fair play to them I say.
It's a state when countries go letting in multinationals to do what they want and even worse when they put their police force at the disposal of said multinational. Like I said it's a small step away from the Shell police and Nigerian army who have, and continue to break up the protests in Nigeria. So what if a few people get shot -they are only Ogoni farmers, so what if a few people get their land and livelyhood destroyed, they're only Irish farmers..........
Great to see so many protestors though -fair play ot all of them!
Lim till i die
04/10/2006, 11:13 AM
The Gardaí will do their job. That job is to protect the interests of multinational corporations against the interests of ordinary people. There should be no surprise at the actions of the gardaí.
Don't try and turn this into some kind of class struggle. What about all the workers on the site being prevented from earning a wage by these small minded me-feiner gombeens?? They're hardly the ruling class
The fact that they were saying the rosary just about says it all about these protesters :rolleyes:
BohsPartisan
04/10/2006, 11:54 AM
Don't try and turn this into some kind of class struggle. What about all the workers on the site being prevented from earning a wage by these small minded me-feiner gombeens?? They're hardly the ruling class
The fact that they were saying the rosary just about says it all about these protesters :rolleyes:
This is typical bull from apologists for $hell. (Why is there no giving the finger smilie?) :mad:
The Corrib Gas field is a natural resource that belonged to the people of Ireland. The government handed it over for a fraction of its value to a multinational corporation with a track record for murder in Nigeria.
Then $hell will in turn charge working people through the nose for the "privelege" of buying back the gas. This at a time when fuel prices are going through the roof and the burden of that is falling on us, the workers, the consumers, the taxpayers who should be seeing the benefit of this resourse. Then to add insult to injury $hell put the lives of the locals in danger to save a few bob.
The real mé féiner gombeens are $hell and their cronies in the government who have stolen the property of all the people of Ireland for their own selfish gain.
Shame on you lim for defending the indefensible! :mad:
Don't try and turn this into some kind of class struggle. What about all the workers on the site being prevented from earning a wage by these small minded me-feiner gombeens?? They're hardly the ruling class.
The construction work by Shell is fully legal based on the current laws of the state. The gardai are entrusted to enforce the law of the state - not to decide what they feel good or bad laws. If the protestors do not agree with the laws of this state they should campaign to change those laws.
:rolleyes:
Lionel Ritchie
04/10/2006, 12:44 PM
The Corrib Gas field is a natural resource that belonged to the people of Ireland. The government handed it over for a fraction of its value to a multinational corporation with a track record for murder in Nigeria.
Then $hell will in turn charge working people through the nose for the "privelege" of buying back the gas. This at a time when fuel prices are going through the roof and the burden of that is falling on us, the workers, the consumers, the taxpayers who should be seeing the benefit of this resourse. Then to add insult to injury $hell put the lives of the locals in danger to save a few bob.
The real mé féiner gombeens are $hell and their cronies in the government who have stolen the property of all the people of Ireland for their own selfish gain.
Shame on you lim for defending the indefensible! :mad:
While I agree that this gas might as well be left beneath the atlantic for all the "value" the Irish people will get from it i.e. it might as well be coming from China as we'll still pay market value for it ...I don't think the Gardaí can be blamed for doing their job -which is actually to maintain law and order.
Protesters are entitled to protest, not obstruct.
I empathise with their desire to have the line go offshore though -notwithstanding the fact that the pipes pressure is well within safety limits.
That which is within safety limits is still not best practice. Put the thing offshore.
While I'm naming the evil that is Shell and our governments desire to do this the cheap way rather than the right way -I'll also name the evil that is the reported local intimidation of people involved or percieved to be involved in construction or facilitation of the works. It's not on.
Lim till i die
04/10/2006, 1:10 PM
Shame on you lim for defending the indefensible! :mad:
I'll say it once again..... What about the construction workers being prevented from earning a wage??
As Mr. Ritchie said protesters are entitled to protest not obstruct ;)
What would you have the gardai do btw?? Allow mob rule just because Shell are evil? :rolleyes:
As Mr. Ritchie said protesters are entitled to protest not obstruct ;)
I think thats an important point. It is illegal to obstruct but lawful to protest.
BohsPartisan
04/10/2006, 1:34 PM
As I already pointed out I do not expect an sympathy from the Gardaí or the state and I don't give a flyin f'ck what is lawfull and what isn't when it comes to defending the lives of working class people. Whats more important? Adherannce to the law or the safety of a community? The law does not necessarily = justice. The theft of the gasfield by the government from the Irish people, its presentation on a plate to $hell and the endangering the lives of the community are all legal. Does that make it right?
The laws of the land are balanced in the favour of the capitalist class. Saying that if both sides adhere by the law then its an even playing field is like saying that a Bohs V Shels match refereed by Alan Kelly is fair.
As for the construction workers, they should be employed by the state to build an offshore facility that will be used for the benefit of the people of Ireland and not for the profit of a multinational corporation.
Lim your continous use of the rollyeye smiley is getting annoying. :rolleyes:
;)
Lim till i die
04/10/2006, 1:39 PM
As I already pointed out I do not expect an sympathy from the Gardaí or the state and I don't give a flyin f'ck what is lawfull and what isn't when it comes to defending the lives of working class people. Whats more important?
As for the construction workers, they should be employed by the state to build an offshore facility that will be used for the benefit of the people of Ireland and not for the profit of a multinational corporation.
Indeed they should in a perfect world but they're not.
Now what about their right to earn a wage being blocked by the protesters??
Are the construction workers not working class?? Should they not be defended??
If your claiming the farmers of the area are "more working class" than the construction workers or some such nonsense you really haven't a leg to stand on
Oh and BTW :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :p
BohsPartisan
04/10/2006, 1:42 PM
Are Shell not paying them while the protest goes on? Thats a very flimsy arguement.
It is the interest of the working class of Ireland (The PAYE worker) as a whole that this resource stays in state hands and is used to provide cheap fuel to housholds.
Lim till i die
04/10/2006, 1:46 PM
Are Shell not paying them while the protest goes on? Thats a very flimsy arguement.
It is the interest of the working class of Ireland (The PAYE worker) as a whole that this resource stays in state hands and is used to provide cheap fuel to housholds.
Was in the interest you mean. Shell own it now, nothing a bunch of people saying the rosary can do about it.
I hope to god Shell are paying them. Poor men having to put up with all that nonsense when all they want to do is a decent days work
Lionel Ritchie
04/10/2006, 1:54 PM
As I already pointed out I do not expect an sympathy from the Gardaí or the state and I don't give a flyin f'ck what is lawfull and what isn't when it comes to defending the lives of working class people. Whats more important? Adherannce to the law or the safety of a community? The law does not necessarily = justice.
Probably not -but I suspect it'll result in Justice a lot more often than the logical follow on from your theory ...which is very similar to the one murdering scumbags of every hue have used to justify butchery not a million miles away from here.
The laws of the land are balanced in the favour of the capatilist class. That'll p1ss the capitalist class off no end. They thought they'd that fcuker in the bag.
BohsPartisan
04/10/2006, 2:02 PM
the logical follow on from your theory ...which is very similar to the one murdering scumbags of every hue have used to justify butchery not a million miles away from here.
Your grasp of logic is pretty flimsy.
Not to mention that this could be considered flaming.
LTID. I agree with you on one thing - saying the Rosary is a joke, though not ALL the protesters are doing that and I'm sure the media latched onto that to make them look stupid.
liam88
04/10/2006, 2:27 PM
1. The 'laws of the land' argument doesn't hold weight. Ken Saro-Wiwa was executed under Nigerian law; it still wasn't justice. That was the hand of Shell in collusion with the Nigerian military junta to murder an innocent protestor for bringing Shells human rights and environmental abuses to the fore. Just because a multinational is commiting apalling actions 'within the laws of the land' it doesn't make it any better.
2. The 'what about the construction workers' argument has been done to death. On this logic what the Nazi's did was alright because they employed a lot of people in the army. It's true that under Weimar people couldn't affod to buy food for their families but under Hitler they were given a uniform, food, and a roof. If Hitler hadn't tried to take over Europe thousands of Germans would have been unemployed- fact. That doesn't make what they did any better.
To clarify -before I am accused of comparing the Irish government to either the Nazi's or the Nigerian military junta of the 90's I am purely pointing out the flaws in the logic of the Royal Dutch Hell apologists on here. Having said that I believe Shell's moral standards are on about the same level as both.
It's not about class it's about multinationals exploiting people.
And what on earth is wrong with praying the rosary?
corbyeire
04/10/2006, 2:28 PM
Was in the interest you mean. Shell own it now, nothing a bunch of people saying the rosary can do about it.
I hope to god Shell are paying them. Poor men having to put up with all that nonsense when all they want to do is a decent days work
they dont want to do a decent days work - they are rolling in it at the moment - long may the stand off continue
for me people dont want a decent days work - they want as much money for as little as possible - decent doesnt come into it
corbyeire
04/10/2006, 2:29 PM
preying - like that, so many levels
Lionel Ritchie
04/10/2006, 2:33 PM
I don't give a flyin f'ck what is lawfull and what isn't when it comes to defending the lives of working class people.
Whats more important? Adherannce to the law or the safety of a community?
Where's my logic flimsy in concluding that sounds like the brand of tripe that paramilitaries and their apologists have used for decades in the North and elsewhere?
didn't refer to the rosary btw.
I will say though that if I were at a secular protest such as this and someone started up a rosary or any other Shamanistic carry on ...I'd not be impressed ..and I'm guessing I'd let it be known that I'd not be staying or attending future protests if similar carry on was to be expected.
It's just -inapproriate.
And what on earth is wrong with praying the rosary?
Moderator: I agree, That has nothing to do with this discussion & I will remove any more posts that include it
Liam - I don't see what the point of bringing Nigerian law into this proves.
Shell will provide hundreds of construction jobs during this project. Will be some permanent jobs aftre this is build too. Shell will pay Corporation tax on profits & PRSI for the employees. The employees will pay PAYE & PRSI into the state coffers. We always hear about too many jobs centred around Dublin & lack of jobs in the West - surely this is adding many well paying jobs to a rural area. I have not even mentioned the jobs provided during the exploration state of this project.
Do fishermen pay the state for the fish the "steal" from the irish nation? Surely we as a Nation own the sea around us collectively?
AFAIK the sea around Ireland is quiet expensive to explore & the oil/gas expensive to extract. If the state taxed this heavily no one would carry out this work.
I see no widespread support for the Corrib protestors. By their definition they are therefore undemocratic as they are resisting the will of the majority. If a law is clearly unjust then surely the majority would want to change it?
corbyeire
04/10/2006, 3:13 PM
my opinion would be once again a clear example of where all the environmental laws of the country and those of the EU have been ignored, unknown, forgotten, reassessed and flouted along with all sound scientific advice
get the wrong eia wrong eis and get your own ecologist to assess the place and give the "right" assessment
since all the basic construction started up there over a year ago - those prestine looking streams are all loaded with aluminium run off due to mobilisation from disturbance of very sensitive peat soils in the area
get the gas for a few decades - wreck the place for millenia
notice how the (bla)guards werent out to enforce all those laws
the sooner people see change in terms of a three legged stool of economy-society-environment and not the double sided coin of economy-society
you are forever going to get linear economic model of ever increasing production
this planet is finite ireland is finite and so is that bloody gas - which in real terms is worthless as we are supposedly according to the latest government green paper on greenhouse gases meant to be using alternatives
hypocracy left right and centre
rant over
BohsPartisan
04/10/2006, 3:14 PM
Where's my logic flimsy in concluding that sounds like the brand of tripe that paramilitaries and their apologists have used for decades in the North and elsewhere?
.
Your flimsy logic is in linking me and my political stance to paramilitaries in the north.
BohsPartisan
04/10/2006, 3:22 PM
Shell will provide hundreds of construction jobs during this project. Will be some permanent jobs aftre this is build too. Shell will pay Corporation tax on profits & PRSI for the employees. The employees will pay PAYE & PRSI into the state coffers...
What will come into the coffers is nowhere near the value of the gasfield.
I see no widespread support for the Corrib protestors. By their definition they are therefore undemocratic as they are resisting the will of the majority. If a law is clearly unjust then surely the majority would want to change it?
This is a red herring. The majority does not know how to go about changing laws and even when they try there are all sorts of obstacles thrown in their way. It takes years to change a law such as this by which time the pipeline will be up and running.
As for support, I found from doing work on this issue on the street last year, at that time there was loads of support. Its not been in the media much since the release of the Rossport 5 so the old out of sight out of mind attitude prevails.
my opinion would be once again a clear example of where all the environmental laws of the country and those of the EU have been ignored, unknown, forgotten, reassessed and flouted along with all sound scientific advice
get the wrong eia wrong eis and get your own ecologist to assess the place and give the "right" assessment.
If there was environmental damage to the country then why don't the Rossport protestors challenge on that basis? I am sure would receive a lot of support it that was true. The terminal would not have got planning approval if it failed an environmental impact study. Gievn how difficult it is to build anything in this country i assume it has passed such an inspection?
All I have seen is protestors bring up spurious arguments about being unsafe to transport gas in pipes. Bord Gas have thouasands of pipes around the country shipping natural gas to their customers.
:confused:
BohsPartisan
04/10/2006, 5:25 PM
If there was environmental damage to the country then why don't the Rossport protestors challenge on that basis? I am sure would receive a lot of support it that was true. The terminal would not have got planning approval if it failed an environmental impact study. Gievn how difficult it is to build anything in this country i assume it has passed such an inspection?
All I have seen is protestors bring up spurious arguments about being unsafe to transport gas in pipes. Bord Gas have thouasands of pipes around the country shipping natural gas to their customers.
:confused:
Eh they have been challenging it on that basis. Corby btw is somewhat of an expert in the field of environmental science so you can bet your bottom dollar that his data is correct. Any of the impact studies carried out were done so by companies with ties to Shell.
The gas that Bord Gas transports in pipes around the country is treated first offshore. When it is deemed safe it is given the "Gas" odour so that if it leaks it will be detected. What Shell want to transport is untreated odorless gas to an onshore refinery. The protesters want it to be treated offshore as is the norm.
At least check what Shell to Sea are actually saying before you pour scorn on what they are protesting about.
Shell To Sea PDF (http://corribsos.com/uploads/Shell_to_Sea_Brochure.pdf)
Thunderblaster
04/10/2006, 11:59 PM
I have no time whatsoever for the protestors as they cannot even see the benefits for a deprived region. Shell must be allowed to do what is in their own best interests. These same protestors would cry about their tough living conditions and complain all day about political neglect. Cromwell was right, "To Hell or to Connacht!!"
BohsPartisan
05/10/2006, 8:06 AM
I have no time whatsoever for the protestors as they cannot even see the benefits for a deprived region. Shell must be allowed to do what is in their own best interests. These same protestors would cry about their tough living conditions and complain all day about political neglect. Cromwell was right, "To Hell or to Connacht!!"
this is quite a stupid post. It brings nothing new to the discussion and contains no facts. If it were an equation the sum of its parts would equal zero. Your moronic comment about Cromwell does not help your case and I'd imagine would be quite insulting to people from Connaught. Again you should have read the text of the pamphlet linked above and some of the posts that outline why this pipeline is a bad idea (see Corbyeire's post for an assesment of the real environmental impact).
What are the benefits?
The profits will not be invested in the region. Only a handful of jobs will be created. The tourist industry in the area will be negatively effected because of the polution caused by the dumping of toxic waste from the refinery in broadhaven bay. Sounds like a wonderful opportunity for the locality.
:rolleyes:
Lim till i die
05/10/2006, 8:28 AM
Again you should have read the text of the pamphlet linked above and some of the posts that outline why this pipeline is a bad idea (see Corbyeire's post for an assesment of the real environmental impact).
That pamphlet is very pretty but it's not exactly fair and balanced now is it??
Who are these experts who say an explosion is "very likely"?? Sounds like nonsense to me
As EVIL as shell are and I'm sure they're very EVIL I genuinely don't see what they have to gain by blowing up part of county Mayo. If nothing else it's in Shells best interests to have this pipeline safe
BohsPartisan
05/10/2006, 8:59 AM
That pamphlet is very pretty but it's not exactly fair and balanced now is it??
Who are these experts who say an explosion is "very likely"?? Sounds like nonsense to me
As EVIL as shell are and I'm sure they're very EVIL I genuinely don't see what they have to gain by blowing up part of county Mayo. If nothing else it's in Shells best interests to have this pipeline safe
Why does it sound like nonsense? Why is it OK to break guidelines about the pressure of gas in these pipes now when it wasn't before? Why are these guidelines in place? Why is it ok to break the guidlines about refining the gas offshore now when it wasn't before? Why are these guidelines in place?
Shell want to process the gas on land rather than offshore because our government will let them do it and it costs a hell of a lot less than building an offshore facility. The industry norm is to process gas offshore. Multinational companies have people to calculate risk of an accident and what the cost of compensation in that instance would be and how it relates to their profits. If they think that the cheaper option, even taking into account possible compensation costs in case of accident, they will go for the cheaper option. It means more profit and a bigger share dividend and share price. That is the bottm line for Shell and alll multinationals. Profit always comes first for them. That is why they are doing it.
On it not being "Balanced"? What does that even mean? If you take a position on something in the belief that your position is correct, you don't go giving the arguement for your opponant as well. Shell and the government aren't exactly balanced are they? The company who carried out the environmental impact study that declared the pipeline would be safe is partially owned by Shell. Thats hardly impartial is it?
Lim till i die
05/10/2006, 9:22 AM
Shell want to process the gas on land rather than offshore because our government will let them do it and it costs a hell of a lot less than building an offshore facility. The industry norm is to process gas offshore. Multinational companies have people to calculate risk of an accident and what the cost of compensation in that instance would be and how it relates to their profits. If they think that the cheaper option, even taking into account possible compensation costs in case of accident, they will go for the cheaper option. It means more profit and a bigger share dividend and share price. That is the bottm line for Shell and alll multinationals. Profit always comes first for them.
Once again maybe I'm being naive.... I genuinely don't think Shell has any interest in blowing up a large chunk of Mayo. I'd imagine were this to occur it would hit the shares and the profits rather hard.......
On the pamphlet issue you can't expect people to take the piece of propaganda you posted as 100% fact no more than I would expect them to take any propoganda by shell as 100% fact.
BohsPartisan
05/10/2006, 9:30 AM
Once again maybe I'm being naive.... I genuinely don't think Shell has any interest in blowing up a large chunk of Mayo. I'd imagine were this to occur it would hit the shares and the profits rather hard.......
On the pamphlet issue you can't expect people to take the piece of propaganda you posted as 100% fact no more than I would expect them to take any propoganda by shell as 100% fact.
The industry standards are what they are for a reason. It is generally recognised in the industry that it is unsafe to do what Shell are doing. An explosion along the pipeline would not "blow up half of Mayo". It could however kill people and damage property. It would only effect the share price temporarily and the risk taken would be worth it for Shell in the long run. This is the same principle that airlines that scrimp on safety measures operate on.
Lim till i die
05/10/2006, 9:35 AM
The industry standards are what they are for a reason. It is generally recognised in the industry that it is unsafe to do what Shell are doing. An explosion along the pipeline would not "blow up half of Mayo". It could however kill people and damage property. It would only effect the share price temporarily and the risk taken would be worth it for Shell in the long run.
I never said anything about blowing up half of Mayo............. But it says on your lovely pamphlet that everyone within a quarter of a mile would be killed :confused:
I genuinely don't think shell would be up for that. Aswell as compensation and repair costs plus the public outcry it would permanently damage the possibility of any further evil schemes they may be planning with the Irish government
Lionel Ritchie
05/10/2006, 9:39 AM
Quote:
I don't give a flyin f'ck what is lawfull and what isn't when it comes to defending the lives of working class people.
Quote:
Whats more important? Adherannce to the law or the safety of a community?
Your flimsy logic is in linking me and my political stance to paramilitaries in the north.
You don't agree that that sounds like, very like in fact, the sort of position put forward by northern paramilitaries of whatever persuasion then?
It's not my intention to "link you and your political stance" to anyone. Nor do I mean to steer off topic ....but you're the one writing recipes for anarchy.
BohsPartisan
05/10/2006, 10:17 AM
....but you're the one writing recipes for anarchy.
Are you saying I've got an appetite for destruction? :D
I'll get me coat.
hoops1
05/10/2006, 10:51 AM
I have to confess, I broke my hole laughing when I heard they were protesting by reciting the rosary.
So did I at the begining but then it was pointed out it was a bit more cynical
than that, sure the guards can drag out the usual disruptive angry mobs.
But obviously there is different implications of forcefully moving little old
ladies praying
I didnt see the ban on mentioning the praying,Please remove this post if need
I cannot take that pamphelt propagansa seriously as the language is far too biased. Where are the facts that "explosion very likely" what experts? Most of the language suggests hearsay. "gas field worth billion" yet the irish state will receive almost no money.
This country would be a basket case if we did not have multi nationals. Sure some people may not be employed directly or even indirectly but if the other people weren't employed by them the rest of ye would be payong high taxes for social welfare.
# 6 out of 10 people in Mayo want Corrib Gas terminal located offshore at sea.
Does this mean 40% of people support the inland terminal? By the actions of the obstructors you would think was 100% opposition in Mayo.
:confused:
BohsPartisan
05/10/2006, 9:13 PM
This country would be a basket case if we did not have multi nationals. Sure some people may not be employed directly or even indirectly but if the other people weren't employed by them the rest of ye would be payong high taxes for social welfare.
:
This is nonsense. Wealth exists independantly of multinational corporations. They just exploit existing wealth. Thats like saying tennant farmers could not grow crops if it wasn't for landlords.
Student Mullet
05/10/2006, 9:25 PM
This is nonsense. Wealth exists independantly of multinational corporations. They just exploit existing wealth. Thats like saying tennant farmers could not grow crops if it wasn't for landlords.There's a bit of a difference between growing crops and (for example) manafacturing microchips. No matter how hard they tried, the people of Leixlip could never have built a pentium processor under their own steam. Similarly, the people of Mayo were never going to find that gas, let alone get it up and refine it, through their own initiave. Multinational companies are (at worst) a necessary evil.
BohsPartisan
06/10/2006, 8:19 AM
There's a bit of a difference between growing crops and (for example) manafacturing microchips. No matter how hard they tried, the people of Leixlip could never have built a pentium processor under their own steam. Similarly, the people of Mayo were never going to find that gas, let alone get it up and refine it, through their own initiave. Multinational companies are (at worst) a necessary evil.
No but a government owned company democratically owned by the government, the local community and the workers - who are the real experts could have.
The first man made object in space wasn't put there by a multinational corporation, it was put their by a planned economy. The meningitus vaccine wasn't discovered by a corporation either but by a planned economy. The expertise still exists whether you have the entity that is the corporation or not. Under a democratically planned economy, that expertise could be put to work in the interests of peoples' actual needs and not the profit of Shell.
What is a planned economy? Communism? I think we can see that was not successful as couldn't feed its own people. The Workers Party get a few thousands votes in our general elections which shows how much support they don't have.
For anyone to suggest Ireland would be a better place without multinationals is insanity. Its not worthy of debate.
Interesting debate on Primetime last night with both sides twisting the facts. Seems the Shell to Sea people want the Terminal somewhere else but in their area - even preferred to have on the shore or in shallow water off the coast. Seemed a contradiction as surely this would not be good is a scenic area?
Both sides calimed to know that the locals favoured. Shell to sea claimed that local communities must be allowed to decide what gets built in their area. To follow this logic would mean nothing built in this country due to so many nimbys. Shell were consulting with locals to change the pipe route which seems to be an admission that maybe not the best route currently. Shell also said was 2 million miles of pipes overland in North America so its surprising with so many they not exploding on a weekly basis.
BohsPartisan
06/10/2006, 11:43 AM
What is a planned economy? Communism? I think we can see that was not successful as couldn't feed its own people. .
While I do not agree with the undemocratic nature of the USSR and associated states, it is a fact that between the 1930's and the early 70's the Soviet economy was the most successful the world has ever seen. Russia went from being a backward feudal third world country with a 15th century economy in 1917 to being the second world superpower after the US in the post war period. There was universal healthcare, universal education and everyone had a roof over their heads. Compare that to Russia today. Since the fall of the Soviet Union life expectancy has fallen from 76 yrs to 54 yrs. Cuba has an average life expectancy of twenty years greater than Russia. The Cuban biochemistry sector came up with the meningitus vaccine. They have a health service many times superior to the one we have here, despite our great wealth and despite the fact that Cuba has faced economic sanctions from the US for decades.
I'm not one to gloss over the problems that faced the Soviet economy. The massive bureaucracy that grew out of Stalin's political counter-revolution choked the planned economy. Quotas being set by bureaucrats rather than experts in the field brought about inefficiancies in certain areas, but the fact remains that the planned economy was proven successful and no amount of capitalist propaganda can kill the truth.
corbyeire
06/10/2006, 12:04 PM
what i was getting at - in most cases the EIA are very hard to pass etc. - but an board pleanala can always have there own people do the the EIA if they are not happy with the independent results
as regards the pipelin - yea grand whatever the chances are of it blowing up - sure 10-20 fatalities
but the aluminium poisoning will be there for donkeys - pete go down drink a glass of local water and then check your blood - guarantee youd be over EU "allowable" levels many fold
that constant poisoning could kill far more people with cancers alzhimers etc. over the decades when the pipes are long emptied
but whos to say where the actual causes for the cancers etc. came from - maybe its from the venting of impurities during the purification process - i dont know plenty of possibilities - plenty of blame and theyll all be long dead before the finger pointing - handy
most of you are thinking way to short term
...but the aluminium poisoning will be there for donkeys - pete go down drink a glass of local water and then check your blood - guarantee youd be over EU "allowable" levels many fold
If this was the case how did they get Planning Permission. Given how strict our planning laws (look how long the process takes to build anything) I can't see how they would get past.
Most of our rivers are already polluted by argiculture anyway so i would be drinking from many untreated sources.
(If ye want a pro v anti communism thread i can slit into new thread)
BohsPartisan
06/10/2006, 1:33 PM
If this was the case how did they get Planning Permission. Given how strict our planning laws (look how long the process takes to build anything) I can't see how they would get past.
Most of our rivers are already polluted by argiculture anyway so i would be drinking from many untreated sources.
(If ye want a pro v anti communism thread i can slit into new thread)
Well on the pro/anti Socialism thing I was simply replying to you and it does have a context in this thread but if you have more to say on the issue feel free to split it.
On planning permission, this is Ireland. A brown paper envelope in the FF tent at the Galway races can go along way towards your planning permission. In my neck of the woods alone you have an incinerator being built within spitting distance of a Unesco world heritage site, not to mention a highly populous area. You also have the centre of Ireland's ancient civilisation being desecrated to build a motorway when other routes were available.
BohsPartisan
07/10/2006, 12:57 PM
Food for thought (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLpDmh4BU8w&eurl=)
Food for thought (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLpDmh4BU8w&eurl=)
I am sure the Nigerian case as seriously dodgy as its a basket case country but see no similarities in the Rossport issue.
It was 100% to keep the Rossport Five in prison & they were only freed when Shell stepped in. The gardai have to protect the site as the protestors are obstructing a place of work which is an illegal action.
The construction of the Corrib gas terminal is of strategic importance to the State. We get most of our electricity from gas & i beleive we import 3/4 of this. A problem with the interconnector gas pipe to the UK or the choice of the operator to up the price of transporting the gas would leave the irish state very venerable. While i am sure we will pay more or less market price for the corrib gas the fact that Shell have no option to transport abroad means can lock into long term contract to guarantee energy for this state. Writing off exploration costs against future profits is standard practice for a lot of industries similar to R & D costs.
The compulsary purchase of land seems strange but the protestors would be better using their energy to challenge this constitutionally.
BohsPartisan
07/10/2006, 3:17 PM
The construction of the Corrib gas terminal is of strategic importance to the State. .
Which is exactly why it should be in state hands.
Which is exactly why it should be in state hands.
The state does not have any expertise in oil or gas exploration. If the state tried to explore fpr oil and gas would cost twice what private enterprise will cost to do it. Exploration costs are massive around the irish coast & only not feasable due to rising oil and gas prices.
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