View Full Version : Work continues at Corrib gas terminal site
BohsPartisan
07/10/2006, 4:00 PM
The state does not have any expertise in oil or gas exploration. If the state tried to explore fpr oil and gas would cost twice what private enterprise will cost to do it.
:rolleyes:
The shareholders of Shell Oil have no expertise in Oil or gas exploration either.
Venezuala is a perfectly good example of how a state can exploit its own resources and fix prices for the good of its own population (and others, Venezuala has provided cheep gas to poor US citizens!).
Anyway, what about Bord Gas?
If a state company was to exploit this resource and even if your dubious claim that it would cost twice as much, the return to the state purse would be such that the state would still be way better off than it is now.
If a state company was to exploit this resource and even if your dubious claim that it would cost twice as much, the return to the state purse would be such that the state would still be way better off than it is now.
Its easy to take gas from the ground when you know where it is. Neither you or I have any idea how much it has cost the Corrib consortium to get this far or how many sectors they have explored & found nothing or extractable value.
It is not the states job to engage in such activities as it is not setup to make profits from enterprise. Ireland doesn't have anywhere near the sale of natural resources that a country such as Venezuala has to make viable anyway.
BohsPartisan
07/10/2006, 4:13 PM
You are missing the fundamental point. Shell as an entity in its own right is nothing. It employs the people who are expert in oil and gas exploration. There is nothing to stop a state company set up for this precise purpose from doing likewise.
You talk about what is and what is not the state's job, but there is no strict definition of that. It depends on your point of view and what economic school of thought you come from. It was an ideological descision to give this resourse away to Shell.
So the State have no obligation to try and get the best deal for the country, economic and otherwise? Pull the other one Pedro
Neither of us know the exact financial situation with exploring the irish waters for gas & oil. If there was a lot of it there companies would have been queuing up years earlier. I just assume the state decided that no one would explore if royalties due - however i will concede something like 5% would hardly be likely to put big business off.
However even if the Shell to Sea people are 100% correct in all their facts they have still been illegally blocking the construction site. It is the duty of the gardai to uphold the laws of the state & seems they have really tried not to be confrontational. Unfortunately the protestors have a history of illegal blockades, failure to adhere to court orders & intimadation of anyone who disagress with them. I would be disappointed if the state gave into such intimadation & mob rule.
We have an extensive planning process in this country & appeals are very easy to enact. Given how much time & energy the protestors have invested why have they been unable to overturn through the courts. I find the comparison with Nigeria insulting as we are a democratic EU state & not a tribal african basket case.
BohsPartisan
09/10/2006, 4:52 PM
It is the duty of the gardai to uphold the laws of the state .
So how come they are not too keen to make arrests when it comes to white collar crime. The AIB and NIB scandals a few years back were Robberies up there with the Northern Bank.
When have you ever seen 180 Gardaí deployed in such a manner for any other reason? Why are they not as enthusiasticly taking on the drug barons?
As for the Gardaí not being confontational, are you mad? Several women had to be taken to hospital with injuries recieved from the Gardaí. It is Shell and the state who are guilty of intimidation and the protesters should not let themselves be bullied.
So how come they are not too keen to make arrests when it comes to white collar crime. The AIB and NIB scandals a few years back were Robberies up there with the Northern Bank.
When have you ever seen 180 Gardaí deployed in such a manner for any other reason? Why are they not as enthusiasticly taking on the drug barons?
I am not disagreeing with you but separate debate.
As for the Gardaí not being confontational, are you mad? Several women had to be taken to hospital with injuries recieved from the Gardaí. It is Shell and the state who are guilty of intimidation and the protesters should not let themselves be bullied.
If someone decided to picket my place of work & had a BLOCKADE then tough luck. You reap what you sow 'n all that.
BohsPartisan
09/10/2006, 5:29 PM
If someone decided to picket my place of work & had a BLOCKADE then tough luck. You reap what you sow 'n all that.
Thats a fairly arbitrary statement though as I have no idea where you work or what reason anyone would have for blockading your workplace. Put it this way if your company or whatever were endangering my life, my family and friends' lives and my community/environment, I'd be blockading it and saying to them, "you reap what you sow".
My other point is relevent in this discussion it shows how the law is unbalanced in favour of the rich and that if the ordinary Joe or Josephine wants to stand up for themselves they sometimes have to break the law to get a hearing.
Lim till i die
10/10/2006, 9:30 AM
LTID and Pete, you are missing one fundamental point. Ray Burke GAVE Shell, repeat that, Ray Burke gave, a company with a proven track record in bribing officials, the rights to extract gas from Ireland at no net benefit to the Irish people.
This I did not know and if it's true it would probably change my opinion somewhat.
I still can't stand those protesters but my views on whether or not Shell should be there in the first place would probably change
The Government only recently gave away further total rights to our natural resources. Again we'll have to pay full market price, with not even garantee's about access at that full market price, to commercial companies. There will be no benefit to the country, just as there isn't in the case of Rossport. As the resources become more scarce, then the more expensive, deeper extraction becomes more viable - hence the interest off our west coast now, which is shamefully being given away. The Government could employ experts and we could sell the rights to finds, even if we didn't want a state company to do the extraction. That's all incidental I suppose....
170 Gards is more than's normally on duty in the whole state for the night shift. This all happens the same week as a mother, who already has to children in crumlin as a result of a fire bombing, is driven from here home with apparantly the police force not having the manpower to deal with it. The politicians should be ashamed of themselves doing a multinationals bidding for them while this type of thing is going on.
AFAIK the Shell to Sea people are not opposing the gas extraction itself (hence the name of their group) but just want it near their village?
BohsPartisan
10/10/2006, 12:20 PM
AFAIK the Shell to Sea people are not opposing the gas extraction itself (hence the name of their group) but just want it near their village?
Thats the minimum demand that unites the whole campaign but even the official campaign literature in a vague way argues for natural resourses to stay in state hands.
AFAIK the Shell to Sea people are not opposing the gas extraction itself (hence the name of their group) but just want it near their village?
Yeah, they want it treated to international standards - i.e. at sea not on land, due to the risks (which I'm sure have been covered). However, the decision to let shell build the terminal on land must be taken in the context and political climate that allowed them get those very rights for a song in the first place. Shady deal giving them the rights with no benefit to us, shady deal giving them the terminal on land with the safety implications for our citizens, shady deals that can mobilise 170 cops on overtime to clear a legitmate protest....
When World War III comes we will be glad we have an internal source of energy. :p
That brings me to Nuclear Power but need new thread for that...
Lim till i die
10/10/2006, 2:19 PM
That brings me to Nuclear Power but need new thread for that...
Go for it
It's something I'm pretty strongly in favour of without having too many facts so I wouldn't mind hearing peoples views :)
paul_oshea
10/10/2006, 2:54 PM
interesting new development:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y226/paul_oshea/mayocrest.gif
€750k so far, so that a multi-billion euro company can avoid legitimate protests? How far would that have gone on various lawless estate's around the country?
From http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/1012/corrib.html?rss
In another development, it has emerged that the cost of policing demonstrations at the Corrib gas terminal site has reached €750,000.
The figure was provided by the Department of Justice in reply to a written Dáil question by the Independent TD, Dr Jerry Cowley, who said that Shell should bear the cost
BohsPartisan
13/10/2006, 4:23 PM
Gas explosion (http://www.breakingnews.ie/2006/10/13/story280862.html)
Substitute sea with sinking bogland and tugboat with tractor...
centre mid
14/10/2006, 12:58 PM
good to see that its not only the people of Rossport that are carrying the flag on this issue, as i was driving home yesterday there was a protest at a Shell garage in kilmac ( wicklow )
Gas explosion (http://www.breakingnews.ie/2006/10/13/story280862.html)
Substitute sea with sinking bogland and tugboat with tractor...
off the coast of Louisiana.
The Shell to Sea protestors want the terminal off the coast so surely this proves more dangerous that way?
Lets say your place of work decided to build an extension to its building which it had planning permission for & a group of people were protesting by blocking the entry gate. What would you do? Would you pass the picket? What if your business could not pay you when not in the work place?
We take risks in our daily lives, if we did nothing risky the human race would still be travelling in horse in carts.
BohsPartisan
16/10/2006, 1:14 PM
No it just shows these types of pipe can explode. Better it happens at sea than in a populated area where the chances of anything colliding with it are increased many times over. The pipelines that Shell used as an example of land based pipelines are not in populated areas I.E. there out the back of beyond in the desert, so they're not comparing like with like.
Lim till i die
17/10/2006, 9:51 AM
€750k so far, so that a multi-billion euro company can avoid legitimate protests? How far would that have gone on various lawless estate's around the country?
Very far indeed :mad:
There not legitimate protests though, they're stopping people from going about their work
I wonder would it be cheaper to lock these people up??
Also, now there's talk of the krustys coming to town, disgrace that our government is so powerless to deal with subversives like these Rossport protestors. I wonder does it have anything to do with the fact that they appear (in the main, don't want to generalise here ;)) to be oh so middle class
BohsPartisan
17/10/2006, 10:20 AM
So you believe the lies being told by the venomous sunday rags? Remember who the people are who own these papers. Don't be so naive.
Check this:
Coverage of the coverage (http://www.indymedia.ie/article/78890)
You should read Noam Chomsky and Ed Herman's "Manufacturing Consent"
Lim till i die
17/10/2006, 11:02 AM
So you believe the lies being told by the venomous sunday rags? Remember who the people are who own these papers. Don't be so naive.
Coming as I do from Southill in Limerick I won't even bother going over my distaste for the mainstream media in this country....... When you read stuff about your own area that you know for a fact is lies it makes you question just how much of the rest of it is true...........
Seriously though any constituents of Tony Gregory or Joe Higgins on here?
Personally, I'd be pretty miffed at them attending rallys in support of county Mayo ranchers when I'm sure there's pressing issues that need attending in their own constituencies.
The Socialist Party's willingness to become so deeply involved in this quagmire has also baffled me. If they think they'll be well thanked by a rural Mayo electorate come polling day they could be in for a nasty shock
Lionel Ritchie
17/10/2006, 11:17 AM
I've said here already how I feel about the locating of the refinery and it's piping in or around Rossport.
I would however like to see a complete and unequivocal condemnation issued by Shell To Sea of ANY intimidation of ANY individual connected with the Rossport situation -notwithstanding their right to legitmate protest.
It would be very helpful, not least to themselves, if they cast as broad a net as possible with such condemnation and appealed to anyone engaged in such activity to cease and desist.
BohsPartisan
17/10/2006, 11:36 AM
The Socialist Party's willingness to become so deeply involved in this quagmire has also baffled me. If they think they'll be well thanked by a rural Mayo electorate come polling day they could be in for a nasty shock
Which is what seperates us from the rest. We won't even have a candidate over there. We do not just get involved in campaigns for electoral gain.
manofthemoment
17/10/2006, 12:27 PM
Gardai are investigating a death threat issued against Natural Resources Minister Noel Dempsey.
The threat is believed to have been made in a telephone call to Mr Dempsey's office yesterday from a man claiming to support the Shell to Sea campaign.
The call came shortly after the minister criticised the group for its blockade of the gas terminal being built by Shell in Bellanaboy, Co Mayo.
Shell to Sea has distanced itself from the incident, which it has described as "utterly deplorable".
Asked about the matter in Dublin this morning, Mr Dempsey said he was worried about the threat, but would not be changing his support for the Corrib gas project.
BohsPartisan
17/10/2006, 12:31 PM
Yet more "news" from un-named "sources".
manofthemoment
17/10/2006, 12:46 PM
sorry that was from http://www.unison.ie/breakingnews/index.php3?ca=9&si=99973
Sounds more like another attempt to hide behind a politicians family, a la Bertie. Very brave these FF politicians. Convenient foil to the story about Shell bribing people to support the project...
A FORMER army officer yesterday claimed Shell offered him €15,000 in return for his support for the construction of the controversial Corrib Gas pipeline and terminal.
Ciaran O Murchu, who heads up the Colaiste Uisce Adventure Centre in Elly Bay, said he had been assured by Shell company officials that nobody would know the money had come from Shell if he agreed to take it. Mr O Murchu turned down the offer.
http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1706982&issue_id=14770
BohsPartisan
17/10/2006, 1:22 PM
sorry that was from http://www.unison.ie/breakingnews/index.php3?ca=9&si=99973
I mean these articles never have any real sources. They always use phrases like "it is believed" without saying who "it is believed" by.
manofthemoment
17/10/2006, 2:07 PM
I mean these articles never have any real sources. They always use phrases like "it is believed" without saying who "it is believed" by.
yah i get ya could be the spindoctors earning their crust sometimes i think the whole world is existing on 'SPIN' nothing is 'REAL' anymore
I think the obstructors should be arrested & forced to give undertaking to obey the law. The state was too soft on the Rossport 5 releasing them while in contempt of court. Clearly being soft on law breakers encourages them to continue to break the law...
BohsPartisan
17/10/2006, 2:44 PM
I think the obstructors should be arrested & forced to give undertaking to obey the law. The state was too soft on the Rossport 5 releasing them while in contempt of court. Clearly being soft on law breakers encourages them to continue to break the law...
Yeah I think we know what you think Pete. :rolleyes:
anto1208
18/10/2006, 1:07 PM
im all for peacefull protest but this isnt they have attacked cops and the workers who are just trying to make a living .
cops have been taken away from where they are needed to drag these morons of the street .Glin in co. limerick has been left with out any gaurds .
what im ****ed off about is that the goverment gave away this massive resorce of natural gas worth trillions and while bord gais up there prices yet again .
BohsPartisan
18/10/2006, 1:20 PM
im all for peacefull protest but this isnt they have attacked cops and the workers who are just trying to make a living .
The cops attacked the protesters. There have been plenty of media lies about protesters threatening people etc. but no evidence of such. Media reports are always from "a unnamed source". Have a look at the link I posted to the coverage of the coverage in one of my earlier posts.
cops have been taken away from where they are needed to drag these morons of the street .Glin in co. limerick has been left with out any gaurds
As I've said, Shell's private boot boys.
Blame the government and their ideological outlook, not the protesters.
what im ****ed off about is that the goverment gave away this massive resorce of natural gas worth trillions and while bord gais up there prices yet again .
Agreed. Join the dots with the above so.
I am going to split the socialism debate into a new thread. As a Moderator I am never off topic (I can just change thread title) :D
anto1208
18/10/2006, 3:00 PM
The cops attacked the protesters. There have been plenty of media lies about protesters threatening people etc. but no evidence of such. Media reports are always from "a unnamed source". Have a look at the link I posted to the coverage of the coverage in one of my earlier posts.
As I've said, Shell's private boot boys.
Blame the government and their ideological outlook, not the protesters.
.
well i saw it with my own eyes a protester striking a gaurd so thats clearly true.
if i was laying on the driveway in front of your house stopping you from going to work what would you do ??
if you try to move me yourself you could end up with an assault charge so you call the gaurds who would pick me up ,move me and let you go about your day .
thats all thats happening here shell cant move them themselves as they would get the arses sued of them, so they call the gaurds who are then being accussed of assault .... im sorry its not assault for a gaurd to take you off the main road ..its common sence .
BohsPartisan
18/10/2006, 3:46 PM
well i saw it with my own eyes a protester striking a gaurd so thats clearly true.
You could be lying. I don't know you so how do I know you're not. Even if what you are saying is true there might be a context and it is nothing to the mass assault the cops have carried out on protesters.
if i was laying on the driveway in front of your house stopping you from going to work what would you do ??
That isn't what is happening here they are blocking the site not the workers' homes
thats all thats happening here shell cant move them themselves as they would get the arses sued of them, so they call the gaurds who are then being accussed of assault .... im sorry its not assault for a gaurd to take you off the main road ..its common sence .
Thats not all the Gardaí are doing. They're actually beating up protesters. Protesters have ended up in Casualty - not big burley men mind, aul fellas and women, no Gardaí have.
I have had first hand experience of "justice" Gardaí style. When it comes to policing protests the Gardaí are thugs (once the numbers are stacked in their favour).
anto1208
18/10/2006, 4:07 PM
[QUOTE=BohsPartisan;558529]
That isn't what is happening here they are blocking the site not the workers' homes
QUOTE]
fine what would you do if i was laying on the road into your work ?
anto1208
18/10/2006, 4:17 PM
[QUOTE=BohsPartisan;558529]
That isn't what is happening here they are blocking the site not the workers' homes
QUOTE]
fine what would you do if i was laying on the road into your work ?
plus context or not if they weren't breaking the law the law wouldnt have to remove them , its an offence to make a public nusance of yourself no matter how right you think you are .
do you think the cops honestly want to be there getting abused by these people , dragging old women off the streets .
while im sure some cops are heavy handed these people are asking for it so ive no sympathy at all
BohsPartisan
18/10/2006, 9:26 PM
[QUOTE=BohsPartisan;558529]
That isn't what is happening here they are blocking the site not the workers' homes
[QUOTE]
fine what would you do if i was laying on the road into your work ?
Its a daft proposition. If you were laying there because the organisation I work for was endangering your life I would say fair play to you, then I would use my union branch comittee position to try and get our union to back you and presurise the employers into desist from whatever they were doing to endanger your life, your family, your community or whatever.
anto1208
18/10/2006, 11:58 PM
[QUOTE=anto1208;558562][QUOTE=BohsPartisan;558529]
That isn't what is happening here they are blocking the site not the workers' homes
Its a daft proposition. If you were laying there because the organisation I work for was endangering your life I would say fair play to you, then I would use my union branch comittee position to try and get our union to back you and presurise the employers into desist from whatever they were doing to endanger your life, your family, your community or whatever.
im not a member of a union i work hard for my money :D :D
im not a member of a union i work hard for my money :D :D
While i agree with that statement lets try keep it on topic.
From what I can tell this is what is happening:
Protestors are blocking the entrance to the Shell construction site.
Gardai try to remove the protestors by picking them up or dragging them (no other way to do this).
They will get scratches from being dragged on the ground.
If the protestors resist by pushing the gardai or other means then they can be arrested for attacking the gardai.
This is a law & order issue, the gardai have no option but to do what they are doing & seems they are being as reasonable as can be expected.
BohsPartisan
19/10/2006, 10:42 AM
While i agree with that statement lets try keep it on topic.
Gardai try to remove the protestors by picking them up or dragging them (no other way to do this).
They will get scratches from being dragged on the ground.
There are pictures on Indymedia of a female protester being grabbed by the throat by a Garda and pictures of the marks on her throat afterwards. Did I not post the link to that? I've been at a sit down protest before where the Gardaí did not drag people away (which is what you expect and accept) bu tcame in hitting people who were defenseless with their batons. Of course they had removed their numbers. You expect to get dragged away. The usual thing is to make it hard for them rather than actually fight back.
Lim till i die
19/10/2006, 11:14 AM
There are pictures on Indymedia of a female protester being grabbed by the throat by a Garda and pictures of the marks on her throat afterwards.
Good enough for her to be honest
If this is true, it's nice to see the guards are finally starting to get fed up. Their lily-livered approach to the whole thing so far was starting to grate. Water Cannon and riot police should have been deployed up there weeks ago
Didn't these protesters mammys ever tell them there's no use crying over spilt milk? Stopping people doing their jobs and intimidating people over spilt milk would be ridiculous if it wasn't so dangerous
BohsPartisan
19/10/2006, 11:25 AM
Good enough for her to be honest
I have to say that is a dispciable attitude and if it happened your wife or mother you wouldn't be too happy about it. The woman was engaged in a peaceful protest. If they drag her out of the way fair enough but grabbing her by the throat? If you think that's ok I hope you are someday the victim of police brutality. :mad:
As for the "intimidation", you are still believing media lies even though you know the media lie about people in Limerick?
Lim till i die
19/10/2006, 11:33 AM
I have to say that is a dispciable attitude and if it happened your wife or mother you wouldn't be too happy about it. The woman was engaged in a peaceful protest. If they drag her out of the way fair enough but grabbing her by the throat? If you think that's ok I hope you are someday the victim of police brutality. :mad:
As for the "intimidation", you are still believing media lies even though you know the media lie about people in Limerick?
Of course I've been the victim of police brutality. It all depends on what you define as brutality though because with the benefit of hindsight I probably deserved it at least half the times
My wife or mother wouldn't be stupid enough or pig-headed enough to get into that situation in the first place.
Peaceful protest my eye - They're OBSTRUCTING work
Quite frankly if you don't want to be caught by the throat don't get involved in idiotic protests
As for the intimidation I believe my fathers friend who called to the house the other day. He doesn't work for Shell, he's not American, he's not a PD, hes not the devil, he's just an ordinary man who lives in county Mayo and is disgusted by what he's seen and heard in his locality. Now maybe he's a liar, maybe all the people who have spoken to him are liars. But isn't it just as likely that the "protesters" are liars..........
BohsPartisan
19/10/2006, 11:45 AM
He could well be disgusted by something he's "heard" but who's to say if what he's heard is true or not. Who's to say how easily he gets disgusted. Thats the beauty of hearsay.
Obstruction does not = violence. Was Ghandi a violent protester. Martin Luther King? Yet these were tactics he espoused. When cops beat up people they are breaking the law but who are you going to complain to? The cops? Give me a break.
Lim till i die
19/10/2006, 11:57 AM
He could well be disgusted by something he's "heard" but who's to say if what he's heard is true or not. Who's to say how easily he gets disgusted. Thats the beauty of hearsay.
Obstruction does not = violence. Was Ghandi a violent protester. Martin Luther King? Yet these were tactics he espoused. When cops beat up people they are breaking the law but who are you going to complain to? The cops? Give me a break.
Who's to say what you hear isn't lies? Who's to say how easily you get disgusted? The beauty of hearsay indeed......
Where did I say obstruction = violence??
You want to know what else Obstruction doesn't equal? - Protest ;)
Are you seriously trying to compare the various ranchers, middle-class types and busy bodies protesting in Mayo with Gandhi and Martin Luther King :eek:
Don't get me wrong I never had much time for Dr. King but cripes man :eek:
I stand by my opinoin that that "protester" got what was coming to her. If she wasn't there it wouldn't have happened and quite frankly the guards have shown unbelieveable restraint throughout, Although whether they would have showed such restraint if faced with a working class crowd is debateable and possibly an issue for another day
BohsPartisan
19/10/2006, 12:08 PM
If she wasn't there it wouldn't have happened and quite frankly the guards have shown unbelieveable restraint throughout, Although whether they would have showed such restraint if faced with a working class crowd is debateable and possibly an issue for another day
I can't believe what I'm reading.
1. I personally know people who have been at the solidarity camp in Rossport. I believe what they say because I know they have witnessed this first hand. They have no track record of lying and don't see why they would start now.
2. As I said I have first hand experience of police brutality at peaceful protests.
3. Obstruction can = protest it is a valid tactic which is often used (I mentioned MLK because he espoused this tactic)
4. The Morris tribunal has attested to the fact that the cops are corrupt, plant evidence, fabricate testimony etc.
Join the dots.
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