John Giles resignation and Stan

[NeilMcD]

Well we could play Miller and Mc phail or Douglas and Miller but I think they would lack a bit of bite in midfield. A central midfield needs many attributes. Against Germany we did not have any of the basics of keeping the ball and retaining posession probably the biggest attribute of a central midfield partner ship. I think a midfield with say Miller or Mc Phail or Douglas or Andy Reid only would lack a physcial prescence. Its about getting the combination right I suppose. I would think thought that Stephen Reid and one of the above may work.

[NeilMcD]

Youve kinda taken your own meaning from what I was saying and ran with it and now ya seem to have gone a bit far with it....:D you should probably keep your "footballers fighting in dressing room over jerseys" fantasy to yourself. I thought you didnt do humour neil so why comment on my attempts?
Basically I do think people over analyse football. its essentially a simple game and the genius of great managers is arguably that they keep it simple or convey an illusion of simplicity to the players. actually last night the panel on rte just backed up my point. You and eirebhouy couldnt think outside the box enough to even contemplate the fact that we might not play a Carsley type player. a holding midfielder in your book, a limited player in mine. try stick to what is actually said Neil and not to what you beleive is being implied.



Noe of the panel last night have been successful in the modern game and I think that a lot of what they say is out dated to be honest. I enjoy watching them but they certainly need to update their views on how football is played in the modern game.

[Billsthoughts]

Right - so you agree that he should be given a fair crack of the whip then? You were saying before that he should have gone after the Germany game (which would of course prevent him from having opportunity to get it right!) I agree with you about Keane's performances for Ireland in the last few matches - he does try silly over-complicated things when he should be taking the simpler option. But I was commenting specifically on his performance against Liverpool last weekend. I saw the game. You didn't! To try and maintain that the scoreline somehow tells you something about one player's performance is a bit false ... players play well and don't score. Players play well and lose. To actually state that it is irrelevant that you didn't actually see the game is very very naive.

apologies for the multi responses.....
I dont agree that he should be given a fair crack of the whip. this approach is just fundamentally flawed.
People are saying he isnt right man for job. lets give him time tho and see if it works out. I can accept what people like Owlsfan and Stuttgart are saying. they thought they played well agasint germany. fair enough. I disagree. but can accept the logic for keeping him on. but people who say that he wasnt their choice and so far the signs are bad but keep him on cause he should be given time. I dont accept that logic at all and its a fundamentally flawed approach to acheiving anything.
the robbie keane thing is just showing you up in a bad light. let it go. I saw the highlights. none of which involved Robbie Keane.

[Billsthoughts]

Noe of the panel last night have been successful in the modern game and I think that a lot of what they say is out dated to be honest. I enjoy watching them but they certainly need to update their views on how football is played in the modern game.

ah the oul modern game myth(am gonna go for myth this time over fad)......
its just that. a myth. I bet if you applied the same principles that underlined the successfull teams of the 60s and 70s and 80s you would still have a successful team now.

[NeilMcD]

You have bet me that but you cant prove it. In addition neither Houghton or Dunphy were successful in management at any time. Giles was a decent manager but not a top class one.

[Billsthoughts]

You have bet me that but you can prove it.

me fail english? thats umpossible!

[Billsthoughts]

You have bet me that but you cant prove it. In addition neither Houghton or Dunphy were successful in management at any time. Giles was a decent manager but not a top class one.
ah the english version thank you.

neither were you succesful in management at any time...so can we dismiss your opinions as well?
didnt think so.

[NeilMcD]

Of course you can if you like Also Bill do you really want me to go through all your posts and examine them for correct grammar. As like most people on this forum I am guilty of the odd typo, until your totally innocent of this crime against the English language leave it out.

Also dismiss my opinions if you like I dont mind. Also I am not dismissing the RTE Panels opinions but you were using them as some sort of overall authority to back up your view. I am just saying that these guys are not exactly sucessful exponents of football managment.

[Emmet]

I dont agree that he should be given a fair crack of the whip. this approach is just fundamentally flawed.
People are saying he isnt right man for job. lets give him time tho and see if it works out. I can accept what people like Owlsfan and Stuttgart are saying. they thought they played well agasint germany. fair enough. I disagree. but can accept the logic for keeping him on. but people who say that he wasnt their choice and so far the signs are bad but keep him on cause he should be given time. I dont accept that logic at all and its a fundamentally flawed approach to acheiving anything. Yeah - I understand what you are saying ... I just think that a change this soon after his appointment would be worse than keeping him for - at least - the remainder of the Euro 2008 qualifiers. I think the cons outweigh the pros right now. I'm not just talking about the 'fair crack of the whip' argument either - there are other compelling reasons too. I wasn't happy with the Germany performance but to change the manager after only one competitive game would be far worse for the team than keeping on a manager (who probably is out of his depth) for another 18 months or so.


the robbie keane thing is just showing you up in a bad light. let it go. I saw the highlights. none of which involved Robbie Keane.Your argument was that it's "irrelevant" whether or not you saw a game to assess a player's performance in that game; Spurs didn't score any goals therefore their forwards must have played poorly. That's mind-bogglingly simplistic ... all I did was point out that a player's performance is determined by a lot more than the number of goals they score / don't score ... do you really not agree with that? If that shows me up in a bad light then so be it!

[eirebhoy]

You and eirebhouy couldnt think outside the box enough to even contemplate the fact that we might not play a Carsley type player. a holding midfielder in your book, a limited player in mine. try stick to what is actually said Neil and not to what you beleive is being implied.
We're not thinking outside of the box. I've said a hundred times that every team I can think of play a holding midflielder, anchorman or whatever else you like to call it. When I'm talking of a holding midfielder I'm not talking of a player that runs around doing all the defensive work. Gatusso and Gravesen do that but they're not holding midfielders. Alonso wouldn't really get stuck in too much but he's Liverpool's holding midfielder. He's always in the best position possible to receive a pass and lay it off. It just means a team will have a lot more possession.

Arsenal - Gilberto
Aston Villa - McCann
Blackburn - Savage
Bolton - Campo
Charlton - Faye
Chelsea - Makelele
Everton - Carsley
Fulham - Diop
Liverpool - Alonso
Man City - Reyna
Man Utd - Carrick
Middlesbrough - Boateng
Newcastle - Parker
Portsmouth - O'Neil
Reading - Sidwell
Watford - Mahon
West Ham - Mullins

Why do all these teams play a holding midfielder? I think if you don't play one that the other team are just going to dominate possession. If you can find the perfect partnership then that's great but we're not going to make that partnership out of our current set of players. :) I have to say, Keane and Kavanagh would have been a very good partnership imo and could have switched roles throughout games.

[NeilMcD]

Keane and Andy Reid would have been the best partnership in my view.

[Billsthoughts]

yeah
that is a list of one midfielder in every premiership team.
well done.
you have proved me wrong there.:rolleyes:

[NeilMcD]

No its not as some teams are missing.

[eirebhoy]

yeah
that is a list of one midfielder in every premiership team.
well done.
you have proved me wrong there.:rolleyes:
What are you on about now? :) I'm trying to show how many managers feel that a "limited player" is vital. You've still yet to name a current team that don't play one.

[Billsthoughts]

shaktar Donsesk
Aek athens
Queen of The South
Monaghan Utd
there I just named four. need I go on?
all you are tryin to do is manipulate the situation so as to turn it into a statto debate of which I am sure you will have all your little stats handy. what I said still stands. there is no law that says we have to play a limited midfielder alongside a creative one. two good midfielders will do.

[NeilMcD]

But do we have 2 good midfielders.

[Billsthoughts]

well the two we play there arent working because they give the ball away too much. So I would try two other ones. Its not like they are attempting something creative and lose the ball which would be fair enough. they just lack the skill (in kilbanes case) and the concentration levels(in o sheas case) to control and pass the ball. again it is stauntons job to scour the divisions and see what is available. he seesm to value a player in the reserves at a so called big club over a player getting first team football lower down the leagues.

[eirebhoy]

shaktar Donsesk
Aek athens
Queen of The South
Monaghan Utd
there I just named four. need I go on?

tbh, I couldn't tell you who plays for AEK, Queen of South or Monaghan but I do know that Shaktaar's holding midfielder is their captain Tymoshuk. I know that because Celtic tried to get him in the summer. :D He was probably Ukraine's best player at the world cup. Not bad for a limited player.

[NeilMcD]

well the two we play there arent working because they give the ball away too much. So I would try two other ones. Its not like they are attempting something creative and lose the ball which would be fair enough. they just lack the skill (in kilbanes case) and the concentration levels(in o sheas case) to control and pass the ball. again it is stauntons job to scour the divisions and see what is available. he seesm to value a player in the reserves at a so called big club over a player getting first team football lower down the leagues.

Who do you want to see play in our central midfied. I agre Kilbane and O Shea have to go. But put forward a positive idea. Give me 2 names that you would like to see in our central midfield versus Cyprus and the Czech Rep.

[Stuttgart88]

I can accept what people like Owlsfan and Stuttgart are saying. they thought they played well agasint germany.
Just for the record, I thought certain aspects of the performance were good, but central midfield was abysmal. The classic "curate's egg" I suppose. But that's not the same as thinking we played well!

[Billsthoughts]

Who do you want to see play in our central midfied. I agre Kilbane and O Shea have to go. But put forward a positive idea. Give me 2 names that you would like to see in our central midfield versus Cyprus and the Czech Rep.

I would play me and one other....I think I can do anything Kilbane can do.
so the next question is who to replace O Shea with. I think you might be an "O Shea" type player....if you know what I mean....;)
I would pick anyone but two players who dont actually play that position. its easy really. just pick two central midfielders. the ones we have the mo are not central midfielders. insert two central midfielders here. how simple can I make it for ya. and eirebhoy I said Shaktur Donsesk. that lad doesnt play for them!

[Stuttgart88]

True. He plays for Shaktar Donetsk, a completely different team.

Bill, I think you're going mad.

[Billsthoughts]

possibly...
If I am Ive been driven to it....:(
holding midfielders and the modern game:mad: ....am just waiting for the Pele wouldnt last ten seconds in the modern game comments....

[Stuttgart88]

Hey, at least nobody's referring to it as "the Makelele role", like he's the only cnut who's ever played that role. Some small scrap of comfort for you perhaps.

I have a vision of you getting progressively madder, like Inspector Dreyfuss in the Pink Panther movies.

I think a rest is required :)

[Billsthoughts]

for all our sakes!

[NeilMcD]

I would play me and one other....I think I can do anything Kilbane can do.
so the next question is who to replace O Shea with. I think you might be an "O Shea" type player....if you know what I mean....;)
I would pick anyone but two players who dont actually play that position. its easy really. just pick two central midfielders. the ones we have the mo are not central midfielders. insert two central midfielders here. how simple can I make it for ya. and eirebhoy I said Shaktur Donsesk. that lad doesnt play for them!



Who should replace O Shea and Kilbane. I do not want Kilbane or O Shea anywhere near our central midfield. Name the players you think should play.

[NeilMcD]

I would play me and one other....I think I can do anything Kilbane can do.
so the next question is who to replace O Shea with. I think you might be an "O Shea" type player....if you know what I mean....;)
I would pick anyone but two players who dont actually play that position. its easy really. just pick two central midfielders. the ones we have the mo are not central midfielders. insert two central midfielders here. how simple can I make it for ya. and eirebhoy I said Shaktur Donsesk. that lad doesnt play for them!

Also just to correct you there O Shea does play that position. Not very well but he does play there for Man Utd. He played there last night.

[Billsthoughts]

Shoot me now..

[eirebhoy]

I've deleted the last 2 posts by NeilMcD and Billsthoughts. PM each other if you want to continue your conversation.

[Billsthoughts]

I noticed that post of neils was sitting there all day and you didnt delete it.
yet when I respond both are deleted.

[Stuttgart88]

PM each other if you want to continue your conversation.
I think a date would be more appropriate. Maybe over dinner somewhere. :)

[Billsthoughts]

If your going to ask Eirebouy out just PM him....

[Stuttgart88]

Arsenal - Gilberto
Aston Villa - McCann
Blackburn - Savage
Bolton - Campo
Charlton - Faye
Chelsea - Makelele
Everton - Carsley
Fulham - Diop
Liverpool - Alonso
Man City - Reyna
Man Utd - Carrick
Middlesbrough - Boateng
Newcastle - Parker
Portsmouth - O'Neil
Reading - Sidwell
Watford - Mahon
West Ham - Mullins

Not all Holding Midfielders by any means.

Alonso? The most talented old-fashioned playmaker I've seen in ages. I think it was kenforee who spelt this out better than anyone here recently: there's a world of difference between a holding midfielder and a deep-lying playmaker. Carrick likes to spread the ball around from deep but can he hold?

Savage? Tough tackling maybe but by no means a holder. And so on. Of about half of the above I'd cite Jon Douglas as similar in style (maybe not ability :)). He puts himself about & has a bit of bite. Totally different to holding.

I'm going to use a pretty odd example: me!

I was a goalie in LSL for years, but dropped down a league for my last 2 yrs to play CB. But in training I insisted there was no benefit to me keeping nets on an astroturf pitch with hockey goals. It was totally unrealistic so I frequently played central midfield in our practice matches.

Boy was I untalented. Those here who know me can testify. Tall & gangly, I make Peter Crouch look muscular. I was a classic "head down" player. If I looked up I tripped. But I knew how to show for a pass & give a pass. I was an OK tackler & I was pretty decent at simply shepherding my opponent into a position where he'd have to pass it away. My instincts were defensive but I got forward too.

Why did nobody say I was playing in the holding role? I was just a midfielder. It wasn't trendy nomenclauture in the 90s.

Was I effective? In a perverse way, yes. My teammates knew I couldn't do anything with the ball. I didn't have the ball striking skill to hit the ball further than 20m without it slowing down to a trickle. If I took a corner it rarely made the front post still airborne.

But because of this my closest team mates ALWAYS showed for the ball. A lot of the time I could actually find the best one to give it to aswell. Having given it I didn't just put my hands on my hips, I'd move into space & show for it again, usually hoping it'd go to someone else. The result? We kept possession, moved for each other & generally played some pretty neat football. The better ball players were fed with good possession. A watching pundit might even have admired the role I played, but maybe that's stretching it.

It was playing these midweek practice matches on astro that has largely formed my footballing philosophy. It's a simple game. You don't need to be that good to be in a good team. An effective midfield pairing usually consists of a pair whose skills complement each other's. Little & Large. Morecambe & Wise (not Larry). Ideally, one should be a talented ball user, the other a bit more cautious & preferably a good tackler. And so on. However, this by no means suggests that a holding midfielder is essential or that management & tactics are irrelevant. Of course tactics are important..

Holding role, holding role. It's just trendy nomenclauture & in my opinion it's misunderstood in most cases anyway.

Anyway, I thought angry Bill could use a bit of a lift given his pending mania, and also a lesson in making a point.

[NeilMcD]

Good post Stuttgart.

[eirebhoy]

Not all Holding Midfielders by any means.

Alonso? The most talented old-fashioned playmaker I've seen in ages. I think it was kenforee who spelt this out better than anyone here recently: there's a world of difference between a holding midfielder and a deep-lying playmaker. Carrick likes to spread the ball around from deep but can he hold?

Savage? Tough tackling maybe but by no means a holder. And so on. Of about half of the above I'd cite Jon Douglas as similar in style (maybe not ability :)). He puts himself about & has a bit of bite. Totally different to holding.

Maybe our definitions are different then. :) I know that Alonso has put more passes than anyone at Liverpool and actually more tackles than anyone at Liverpool.
http://home.skysports.com/optastats.aspx?clid=14&hlid=OPTA_Liverpool&cpid=8

Alonso is actually my ideal holder. He'll sit in front of the back 4 and will always be in the best position to take a pass and usually take the right option in redistributing it. He may play much more long balls than someone like Makelele but they're all holding midfielders in my book. Pirlo is exactly the same type of player as Alonso while Gattuso would be the equivalent of Sissoko.

Savage you may have a point as I can't say I watch a lot of him or Blackburn but he again is the 2nd highest passer at Blackburn aswell as the highest tackler by far.

Actually, just looking at wiki and your definition would be correct by the book. I just put playmaker and holder all in the one definition. One or the other is required in a team these days. They say Pirlo, Alonso, Essien, Carrick and Xavi are playmakers. I just put them in with the holding midfielders. At the end of the day they all sit in front of the defence, rarely get involved in the other side of the pitch and guarantee the team a lot more possession when they're in the team.

Can I ask what you would put down as the difference between playmakers and holding midfielders? Alsonso, Xavi, Carrick, Pirlo and essien are certainly the most deap lying players in their teams. If Alonso is playing then Sissoko doesn't play the holding role, he just runs all over the pitch. Same goes for Pirlo with Gattuso.

[Stuttgart88]

For me a holder is the guy who sits on front of his defence, an advanced centre-back almost, who having broken up play or received the ball from defence gives and takes simple passes. His emphasis is fundamentally defensive, but as a midfielder distribution is important.

I call Alonso / Carrick / Gravesen / Kavanagh style players as playmakers as they have a range of passing, long & short. Hence the "simple" in italics above.

Makelele is probably the most obvious example of a holder in my view. I don't watch Chelsea now that Duff is gone but I thought Essien got forward far more often than Makelele, no? It's not the point though.

Today's nomenclature drives me mad. Why isn't a deep-lying playmaker still a playmaker, i.e., the guy who dictates play? Current fashion is to call the Zidane / no. 10 / in-the-hole role as playmaker, exclusively. A playmaker doesn't have to be so advanced. In my mind calling Alonso a holder is almost insulting to the man. I'd pay money to watch that guy just kicking a ball against a wall he's so elegant. The most watchable player in England in my view.

I edited my post to use the facile Morecambe & Wise example as an effective combo but it's true. A bit of bite, mobility & guile is what makes midfield tick for me. And what makes a team tick: balance. Not everyone needs to be a world beater in a good team.

[endabob1]

The difference between Makalele and Carrick for example is Makalele is a tackler sniping around your ankles winning it back and giving it to the more creative players. Carrick tends to cut out passes with his positional sense and then can either give it short or has the ability to hit long accurate passes. Tactically they both occupy similar areas of the pitch between the back 4 and halfway but they do the job in a subtley different way.
From an Irish perspective we have a Makalele type in Carsley and possibly O'Shea (if someone could make him believe he was playing for united when wearing a green shirt!) but with the possible exception of Stephen Ireland I don't think we have anyone in the Carrick mould. Personally fully fit I'd have Carsley and Steven Reid in the middle, Carsley to sit and Reid to do the box to box work.

[NeilMcD]

I think we are all agreed though that what a midfield is a combination of winning the ball back, playing the simple pass, not losing the ball, getting box to box and creating chances for forwards and wingers. This can come in the form of one player i.e Roy Keane or more likely in the form of 2 players. How these skills are held by which player is not so important as long as the midfield 2 hold these attributes.

[Stuttgart88]

Agreed. In our case it may even require 3 players. Now what's Stan's e-mail address?

[eirebhoy]

My main description of the player I was describing is the player that stays in the best position possible to receive a pass. Alonso does this, McCann does this, Carrick does this and Carsley does this. They all sit in front of the defence, they all position themselves in a position where their teammate can easily pass it to them and they all then redistribute it. The fact that one may tackle more than the other doesn't come into my mind. That's the player I'm saying is required in any team and they all go under the same heading to me. :)

Riquelme and Nakamura are what I call playmakers. Again, Stutts is right but I have my own definitions. ;) You distinguish between the "tackler" and the "passer". I distinguish between the positions they take up on the field.

Right, how did this discussion start? :)

[RogerMilla]

dont know how it started but it has left me pretty depressed as regards the dearth of talent in the irish midfield

[Billsthoughts]

Anyway, I thought angry Bill could use a bit of a lift given his pending mania, and also a lesson in making a point.

self praise is no praise....

[Billsthoughts]

Savage you may have a point as I can't say I watch a lot of him or Blackburn but he again is the 2nd highest passer at Blackburn aswell as the highest tackler by far.

Actually, just looking at wiki and your definition would be correct by the book. I just put playmaker and holder all in the one definition. One or the other is required in a team these days. They say Pirlo, Alonso, Essien, Carrick and Xavi are playmakers. I just put them in with the holding midfielders. At the end of the day they all sit in front of the defence, rarely get involved in the other side of the pitch and guarantee the team a lot more possession when they're in the team.

.

just wondering...do you actually get any enjoyment out of football apart from the stats??????

[elroy]

Just on Stephen Ireland, i know he's only get the odd sub appearance at the moment but what i saw of him last year i think the guy is a really good prospect. I think he has the potential to be a real top midfielder in a few years.

[eirebhoy]

just wondering...do you actually get any enjoyment out of football apart from the stats??????
Have you made one decent post since you registered on foot.ie? :) I seem to have to explain everything to you but if a player is going to be sitting in front of the defence in the best position to receive a pass then you'd expect him to have the highest passes per game in the team.

Bill you should stop replying to the poster and just reply to the posts.

[Stuttgart88]

self praise is no praise....
i never said it was a good lesson

[Billsthoughts]

Have you made one decent post since you registered on foot.ie? :) I seem to have to explain everything to you but if a player is going to be sitting in front of the defence in the best position to receive a pass then you'd expect him to have the highest passes per game in the team.

Bill you should stop replying to the poster and just reply to the posts.
Its a relevant point to make. You seem more interested in stats than actually what you are watching. Like these statistics prove anything. Its football its not an exact science. If it was we would all be rich men. you seem to think you can scientifically prove anything to be true. I dont agree with this. thats not football its trainspotting. This is a very relevant point to make when you come on and dismiss other peoples posts out of hand. Stuttgart you seem to have just backed up everything I said only you feel the need to make smart comments at the end so as not to offend Neil and Eirebores sensibilities.

I made my points clearly.
1)There is no law to say we have to play a holding midfielder.
2)And who I would replace the current central midfield with is irrelevant to me pointing out that they are not up to the job. any other debates that people were tryin to start are their own business.arse all to do with what I was saying.

[eirebhoy]

This is a very relevant point to make when you come on and dismiss other peoples posts out of hand.
Who's points have I dismissed? Since we've been debating this you've yet to actually make a relevant point. As I said in the pm, I asked what team doesn't play a holding midfielder and you replied with the first teams that came into your head. Neil asked who you'd play in the centre of the Irish midfield and you said you'd play there.

Stuttgart is actually having a debate with us. If we make a point he'll challenge it, you just dismiss it without reason.

[NeilMcD]

Bill who made the statement about Giles and Dunphy and Houghton knowing nothing about the modern game.

[Stuttgart88]

Stuttgart you seem to have just backed up everything I said only you feel the need to make smart comments at the end so as not to offend Neil and Eirebores sensibilities. Well, we had actually been agreeing on this issue all along. My recent post wasn't my first comment on this topic.

The "smart comment" was meant to lighten things up a bit, up to you how you take it I suppose. I doubt Neil or eirebhoy would ever take much offence from me anyway so appaesing either of them couldn't have been further from my mind.