John Giles resignation and Stan

[geysir]

- Drop kilbane and o shea they offer nothing. put two midfielders in that play regularly with their clubs. regardless of who their clubs are. personally I would play reid(i know hes injured) in there as he is a creative player and we need a bit of creative focus other than duff but would be happy with 2 midfielders with a clear understanding of what they are supposed to do. win possesion/retain possesion and feed the strikers/wingers. not just one of the three.
- play aidean mageady and ask him to run at the opposition.

Having a look at this midfield. It's not such an attractive attempt at a reconstruction.
Play McGeady? a novice, play Any Reid in CM? who as well as being injured and can't play, doesn't play regularily with his club and unproven in CM.
Partnered by who? Steven Reid, who hasn't yet met the challenge of midfield, hasn't yet demonstrated that he is a leader type that would be needed it that midfield selection.
It's a powder puff midfield that would be trampled on by the Czechs comfortably.

[Billsthoughts]

Good stuff. Drop our record goal scorer and replace him with any other striker (bit vague there). IS ROBBIE KEANE SCORING GOALS AT THE MO? DID I MISS SOME SPURS GAMES? WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME HE SCORED AN INTERNATIONAL GOAL AGAINST SOMEONE OF NOTE? YEAH DROP HIM. HE HASNT A GOD GIVEN RIGHT TO A PLACE.

Again a bit vague there. Replace them with anyone playing regular football with their clubs and Andy Reid who is injured. This is brilliant stuff. A masterplan of great thought and depth. What clubs (Cherry Orchard ?) and who ? I am a neither a fan of O'Shea nor Kilbane but it's not true to say they offer "nothing". Kilbane offers height in a team of pygmies and O'Shea offers some protection in front of the back four.PUT IN TWO MIDFIELDERS WHO PLAY REGULARLY FOR THEIR CLUBS. LIKE YOU KNOW MIGHT ACTUALLY KNOW THE REQUIREMENTS OF THE POSITION?REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THEY PLAY IN THE CHAMPIONSHIP.

Hoofing the ball. Alas when we don't have players who are capable of hanging on to the ball that happens. It therefore goes back to having a central midfield of players who can hold on to the ball which we don't have. Carr you say did well but you want to drop him and move Finnan back to right full. Who goes left full? That collossus of defensive ability, Ian Harte ?
YEAH PICK A DECENT MIDFIELD. AT THE MOMENT WE ARE NOT. AND YEAH STICK HARTE IN.
Yes, with our strength in depth we can afford to have a whole range of different talents on the bench. I'd be interested to hear you expand on who you'd drop from the bench and bring on. The bench also has to cover for injuries so you need like for like as well in case you didn't realise that - you have watched football, right ?I DONT SEE WHAT ALAN O BRIEN OFFERED AGAINST THE GERMANS OTHER THAN RACING THEM TO THE LINE. THE NEW KEVIN KILBANE!

Sweeping generalisation. From the game I saw in Stuttgart every player had a very clear understanding of their roll in that game.YOUR ON YOUR OWN THERE PAL. READ ANY OF A MILLION COMMENTS ON THIS BOARD.

What does "your contrary little FAI loving Keano" mean :confused: ?
I THOUGHT IT SUMMED UP EVERY POST YOU EVER MADE QUITE NICELY.
I agree, Staunton may not be up to the job but I'll reserve my judgement until the end of the campaign. TOO LATE THEN TO QUALIFY. Keep practising the knee jerks.IT WASNT PARTICULARLY FUNNY THE FIRST TIME AND CERTAINLY ISNT NOW EITHER
Having a look at this midfield. It's not such an attractive attempt at a reconstruction.WHAT MIDFIELD? I SAID PLAY MAGEADY. I ALSO SAID I PERSONALLY WOULD PLAY ANDY REID CAUSE HE CAN ACTUALLY PLAY FOOTBALL. YOU KNOW THAT GAME WE ARE SUPPOSEDLY ENGAGED IN?????? NOT "CONTAIN THE OPPOSITION" OR "LIMIT THE SIZE OF THE DEFEAT"
Play McGeady? a novice???????HE PLAYS MORE REGULARLY FOR HIS CLUB THAN JOS!!!!!, play Any Reid in CM? who as well as being injured and can't play, doesn't play regularily with his club and unproven in CM.EMM HE WOULD BE PLAYING REGULARLY WITH CHARLTON IF HE WASNT INJURED
Partnered by who? Steven Reid, who hasn't yet met the challenge of midfield, hasn't yet demonstrated that he is a leader type that would be needed it that midfield selection.AT LEAST HE IS A MIDFIELDER
It's a powder puff midfield that would be trampled on by the Czechs comfortably.AGAIN WHAT IS OUR AIM???? TO LIMIT OUR LOSSES OR PLAY FOOTBALL??? BUILD A TEAM FOR THE FUTURE OR **** AWAYU ANOTHER CAMPAIGN ON HARD LUCK STORIES AND MORAL VICTORIES??? IS IT ANY WONDER THE TEAM LACKS ANY IMAGINATION OR GUILE WHEN THE FANS ARE SO ****ING LIMITED IN THEIR THINKING

[geysir]

Bill, your formatting is a mess but I guess you are the guy that's screaming.
It's a hole that some of those who hammer the management and team fall into when pressed to offer some sort of an alternative.
I wonder what amount of bollocking Stan would get if he selected a very injured Andy Reid for the next 2 games saying that 'if he was fit he would have played for his club'.
Steven Reid has only had a bit of very ordinary first team football so far this season and it's doubtfull if he will get a club game before the next two qualifiers.

[Billsthoughts]

the caps is just to differentiate from you and owlsfans rants.
I havent got all year to be quoting differnt parts.
As I said already, PERSONALLY I would play Andy Reid.
I didnt say he was the be all and end all of our hopes of qualifying.
And I pointed out that he was injured so therefore it was implied wouldnt be available til he was fit.
And yeah altho he hasnt been impressive so far for Ireland I would pick Stephen Reid as well. His club form at Millwall and at Blackburn when he is fit shows he is a good player. Your post just defies logic. Do you honestly think I was implying that Andy Reid should be picked in the next two games eventho he is injured? :rolleyes:

[Emmet]

I think you're starting to see that whilst it is easy to be negative and moan a lot - it is much harder to be constructive and positive! Which two central midfielders - assuming hypothetically that everyone is fit - would you replace Kilbane and O'Shea with? Andy Reid and Stephen Reid?

I thought Robbie had a good game on Saturday at Anfield - he looked lively and sharp. Yes, he is not scoring goals but Doyle is ... I think Keane and Doyle would be our best partnership up there. Are you in favour of Morrison instead of Keane then?

[Billsthoughts]

I think you're starting to see that whilst it is easy to be negative and moan a lot - it is much harder to be constructive and positive!
eh no I dont see how??....I just said everything in the above posts.....it wasnt hard at all. it was dead easy...might apply for the job when it next comes up....
Its not moaning to point out obvious flaws in the current set up. Just pointing out facts. Saying something is so just cause you want it to be so will never get you anywhere near a major tournament. The easy thing to do would be to resort to cliche and banalities...."he is in the job so let him have a fair shot at it"....."we played well agaisnt the germans" "holland game was only a freindly" yadda yadda yadda.....
there are obvious flaws in our current set up that unless they are rectified will come back to haunt us at some stage.

btw robbie keane must have had a stormer if Spurs got beat 3 - 0 by a stuttering Liverpool team..and as I said I would play two midfielders who are getting regular games for their clubs. Its noit my job to scour the divisions looking for alternatives but it is stauntons. Plan A isnt working so find a plan B. I thought Douglas looked better in the holland game than both kilbane and reid. But I would stick with Stephen Reid and look for an alternative to partner him. Why would you want to stick with Kilbane and Oshea? give me a reason???????????????????????? Kilbane is tall??? I didnt know that was a reguirement for midfield.....

[NeilMcD]

Billthoughts what would you like the starting 11 and subs to be versus Czechs and Cyprus. I agree we need to get rid of Kilbane and O Shea from our midfield.

I would go for this as our first choice 11


Given

Finann O Brien Dunne (O'Shea/Harte/Kilbane/Carr) Mucy of a muchness


Mc Geady Reid Carsley/A. Reid Duff


Doyle Keane.



Oh Spurs played well on Saturday and were unlucky but there finisihing is very poor at the moment and it was never a 3-0 game. Even the most ardent Liverpool fans would say that. Liverpool did deserve to win though. I did not think Keane played that well but he was not bad either.

[Billsthoughts]

yeah I heard they were unlucky alrite but it was the nil part of the 3 nil I was referring to.
I would play pretty much the same team but would be looking to bring in guys from the lower leagues in midfield as back ups/future prospects.
Staunton has been basically given a blank cheque for this campaign as in he will still have a job at the end of it regarless of how he does. he should use it to bring guys in. which I think he kinda has altho he seems to be bringing in reserve/youth guys at big clubs rather than youngish lower league players. it wasnt so long ago people were writing off kavanagh as a "never will be". Personally I wouldnt be too bothered with Carsley altho I can see why people want him in. He is hitting a run of form but I dont think he offers anything new. A stop gap solution at best. I really dont think Robbie keane has been too great last couple of years for us. he needs a new role in the team that better makes use of his talents. and he deffo needs to be taken aside and told what he should and shouldnt be doing on the pitch for the good of the team. Andy O Brien has been great for us but he really needs to find a club or else he will make a mistake soon enough.

[Stuttgart88]

A stop gap solution at best. Nothing wrong with that. Ignoring San Marino, after these next 2 games we have 2 home games in March and then the crunch games 11 months from now.

I'd say we should do everything we can to get 6 points this October to keep the campaign alive.

Let our younger players develop at their clubs through the rest of the season as they'll be of more use to us then.

[Billsthoughts]

I dont think he offers us anything as I think he is a very limited player...
give someone else their chance.
San Marino and Cyprus should be oppurtunities to experiment....
I think the reason he wont bring in the likes of Kiely and Carsley is that it sends out the wrong message to the players he has. i.e. your not good enough.

[NeilMcD]

Well who else can play the holiding role.

[Billsthoughts]

why do we need a player in a holding role? Its a myth.
both midfielders should be tracking back to help out when we dont have the ball.

[Emmet]

... as I said I would play two midfielders who are getting regular games for their clubs. Its noit my job to scour the divisions looking for alternatives but it is stauntons. Plan A isnt working so find a plan B. I thought Douglas looked better in the holland game than both kilbane and reid. But I would stick with Stephen Reid and look for an alternative to partner himOk, that's fair enough - but who? C'mon - if you're going to slaughter Staunton then offer us an alternative!! What would be your starting XI for the Cyprus game?


btw robbie keane must have had a stormer if Spurs got beat 3 - 0 by a stuttering Liverpool teamDid you watch the game then? Fair enough if you did but surely if you didn't you really aren't in a position to comment on any of the players' performances in that game.

[eirebhoy]

why do we need a player in a holding role? Its a myth.
What's a myth? What team doesn't play a holding midfielder?

[Billsthoughts]

every team in the history of football.

[Billsthoughts]

Ok, that's fair enough - but who? C'mon - if you're going to slaughter Staunton then offer us an alternative!! What would be your starting XI for the Cyprus game?
Did you watch the game then? Fair enough if you did but surely if you didn't you really aren't in a position to comment on any of the players' performances in that game.

1)lets nip this slaughter stan lark in the bud straight away. the guy has lost three of his four games in charge.I think thats a valid starting point to question whats going on.maybe he will turn out to be a great manager. happy days for us all if he does. but at the moment I dont see what he has brought to the team that wasnt there before. in fact we seem to have gotten worse. its nothing personal. when he gets it right(and I think for the first 25 minutes against the germans he got it spot on) I will be as happy as everyone else.
2)as I said try other options. these two dont work and dont inspire confidance in the supporters.they keep giving the ball away and when you do that its not bad luck when you lose its an inevitibility.Its not my job to pick the team for the guy. he should be aware of what alternatives he has in midfield. Thats not a cop out. loads of midfielders have been named in other threads. some of them cant even make the squad! how many of them have had the amount of chances kilbane has had? can anyone ever remember o shea having a good game for ireland? I love kilbanes work rate and I think o shea is a classy footballer but I dont think either of them are working for ireland at the mo.
3)its irrelevant whether I saw the Liverpool v Spurs game or not. his team was beat 3-0. he is a striker so am saying he cant have been too spectacular given a strikers job is to score goals. I am not saying he is a poor player. he is one of the most skillfull players we have ever produced. but at some stage you gotta ask what is he actually contributing? maybe he is a victim of bad service but how many times has he been in goalscoring positions and tried something totally innapropriate instead of just sticking it in the back of the net. There is no way on earth that doyle is a better player than him but you would take doyle to score over keane any day of the week.
4)with regards the famous "holding midfielder" - there is no law that says we need to play one.we need two central midfielders that will work their socks off. If we stop giving the ball away so cheaply it wouldnt be such a big issue. If we were well organised it wouldnt be a problem. If everyone was commited to the cause it wouldnt be an issue.

[tetsujin1979]

why do we need a player in a holding role? Its a myth.
Hardly a myth, more of a relatively recent phenonenon. When asked about this role, Giles has often stated that there was no designated holding player in the great Leeds team he played with, when he went forward, Bremner held back, and vice versa.
Just that as the game has evolved, it has become more and more of a defined role in midfield, a player staying back, intercepting forward passes from the opposition, breaking up attacks and spraying the ball out to wingers or the other, more attacking, central midfielder.

[Stuttgart88]

Personally I don't think a holder is necessary. It's a fad. A midfield pairing that complements each other & is well balanced is they key. Vieira & Petit is a great example. I heard it referred to as "piston like".

I think a model that we could look to is the Joey Barton / Stephen Ireland combo that worked well at City at times last year. A tireless runner who can play a bit to complement the guy who uses the ball intelligently.

I'm becoming more & more convinced though that there's barely a paring we can put out that's competitive so a midfield 3 may be the answer (see recent selections in other posts).

[Billsthoughts]

Personally I don't think a holder is necessary. It's a fad. A midfield pairing that complements each other & is well balanced is they key. Vieira & Petit is a great example. I heard it referred to as "piston like".


fad is a great word for it. like attacking wing backs.......(or whatever was all the rage when Macarthy took over)
Both midfielders should be able to do their job. you wouldnt call viera at arsenal "just" a holding midfielder or keane for ireland in his prime either. It just seems a way of justifying putting what is essentially a limited midfield player in your team.

[NeilMcD]

every team in the history of football.

Every team in the history or football has not played a holiding player.

Ok

makele played it

Keane in the Utd team held while Scholes went forward.

In modern day football a lot of teams have a more defensively minded player as part of the 2. Liverpool even have 2 players to do that job. Giles and Bremner were top class players and the game has changed so much. If you have an average midfield and team you need somebody who sits in front of the back four breaks up the play and gives a simple pass. Carsley has done this for Everton this season and 2 seasons ago. As a result Everton have been in good form as a result. When he was missing they struggled.


Total football is fine if you have good players but when you have average players defined roles become even more important. Jack Charlton thought we had average players and as a result liked to play centre backs in midfield. He was lucky that Mc Grath and Lawrenson were so good they could do it.

[NeilMcD]

fad is a great word for it. like attacking wing backs.......(or whatever was all the rage when Macarthy took over)
Both midfielders should be able to do their job. you wouldnt call viera at arsenal "just" a holding midfielder or keane for ireland in his prime either. It just seems a way of justifying putting what is essentially a limited midfield player in your team.



We dont have anyone of the calibre of Viera, Petit, Keane, Giles Bremner, Whelans, Souness, Robson or anybody near that at the moment. So defind roles are the best way forward for now in my view.

[Billsthoughts]

why?
if anything due to the limited players available we should be doing the opposite.

[eirebhoy]

why?
if anything due to the limited players available we should be doing the opposite.
It seems very tough to get a central midfield partnership that'll work by one going forward while the other stays back at different times in the match. I always use this as an example but Lampard and Gerrard are both excellent midfielders but even the likes of Azerbaijan can dominate possession against them. I'd love nothing more than Gravesen and Jarosik to form a superb partnership at Celtic but I just can't see it happening.

You'd want to have real intelligient players if you're to do it like Frings and Ballack. Even then, Frings plays the holding role for Germany with the license to get forward from time to time. We do not have to players atm so a holding midfielder is essential imo.

I'm actually struggling to think of any team that doesn't play 1 specific player in the holding role.

[endabob1]

We've got good wide players (Duff, McGeady, Andy Reid) but our centre is fairly soft so I tend to agree that we need a bit of bite in there, personally I would have Carsley in there with Stephen Reid, Carsley gets a nosebleed if he crosses the halfway line so it would give Reid more of a licence to get forward and support the front 2.
The issue as I saw in Germany was we were too defensive in the centre both O'Shea and Kilbane were too deep so Keane kept having to come deep looking for ball, it left Doyle isolated and we ended up just hoofing long balls to a lonely striker.
I can see Stauntons point in not bringing Kiely back but Carsley would have been a shoe in for me, at the moment him and Steven Reid are our best central midfielders.

[Billsthoughts]

You'd want to have real intelligient players if you're to do it like Frings and Ballack. Even then, Frings plays the holding role for Germany with the license to get forward from time to time. .

emm is this not just being a midfielder?

[eirebhoy]

emm is this not just being a midfielder?
It's arguably the most important position on the pitch. You can be an excellent central midfielder but that doesn't mean you're going to be an excellent holding midfielder. Anyway, can you think of any current team that doesn't play a holding midfielder regularly?

[Billsthoughts]

ffs man
all you are doing is defining a midfielders role.
no I cant pick any team that plays without a midfield if that is the question you are asking..
you could probably tell me who plays midfield and what their specific midfield roles are in every team in the world but ya couldnt actually go out and play midfield if you were asked to.
I will say it again.
Both midfielders should be able to play the position they are supposed to. its not a case of one takes half and the other does the other half.

[eirebhoy]

Both midfielders should be able to play the position they are supposed to. its not a case of one takes half and the other does the other half.
This is the point I am making. Look at any team and I think you'll find that is exactly the case. Every team I can think of plays a holding midfielder. I can't think of one team that play 2 central midfielders who have the exact same role. It's the same with the defence. One defender will lead the line and organise defence. It's not as simple as saying "you play centre mid Jim".

[Billsthoughts]

Things are as simple or as complicated as you choose to make them... I dont think you know what you are on about and you think the same bout me. lets leave it at that. Am beyond caring at this stage..
its irrelevant anyway as Carsley(the answer to all our holding midfielder wet dreams) is not going to play for us again.

[Stuttgart88]

Vieira was never a holder, nor was Petit. Great partnership though.

I'd argue that Keane was never a holding midfielder either, he was far far more than that. The Barton/Ireland example I've cited before was an effective partnership but there's no way you can call either a holding midfielder.

If we had one, we'd play one. But we don't, so we should look at alternatives. Just give me a guy who can put himself about & who is comfortable on the ball (Douglas? but not Kilbane) and a guy who can use the ball (we've several half-decent options here). Let them develop an understanding.

The more I read above, the more I'm believing in a 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-1-2 to solve our midfield problems. If we don't have a pairing that's competitive, give them a hand.

[eirebhoy]

I'd argue that Keane was never a holding midfielder either.
He wasn't before the latter part of his career but at that time he would almost always have a holding midfielder like Nicky Butt or Kinsella in beside him. An interesting stat that shows the change in Keane's roles at club level is that it took him over 50 games to score his 50th goal for Man Utd.

I agree that neither Barton or Ireland are holders but chances were Barton played that role when they both played in the centre. Barton scored 6 goals last season and Reyna was his partner for 5 of those with Ireland starting none of the 6.

I just think every manager gives 1 player the holding role in every match these days.

[NeilMcD]

I totally agree with Eirebhoy on this. In an ideal world you would have 2 all round midfielders who have the talent and the tactical awareness and discipline to be an all rounder in midfield. But most players are not Roy Keans, or Vieras who can do it all in there. So what do they do they play one like Frings or Makele and another like Lampard or Gerrard. Look at Liverpool they dont even trust Gerrard to play the 2nd more attacking midfielder and they play two sitting players one to break it up and the other to be more constructive.

[Stuttgart88]

I think most managers do, but club managers have the luxury of being able to buy one.

Just to pick on above a bit: I'd never classify Kinsella as having been a holder. Keane & Kinsella is a classic example of what I believe is important: a ball winner (Keane) and a ball user (Kinsella). This is subtly different to a holder & attacker combo. In my mind anyway!

The point I like to make about Stephen Ireland is that he's most effective further up the pitch. He can pick & time that pass that gets his forwards in. However, he's too lightweight to impose himself on central mid. Barton on the other hand is an energetic box-to-box player but by no means a holder. The players we have most like him are S. Reid & maybe Jon Douglas. We have several players in the mould of Ireland.

I'd love to sit down with Guus Hiddink and ask him how he'd deal with our midfield. I'd like to hear what he thinks of our options man-for-man and how this stacks up against his Australia team that admittedly had quality in some key positions, but bog-standard at best in others (Luke Wiltshire anyone?). I saw them in the flesh against Italy and was impressed.

[endabob1]

If you have 2 quality midfielders it's not an issue Petit/Viera was the classic of modern times when one went the other sat our problem and many other teams is that it's difficult to get 1 quality midfielder in there never mind 2!

Someone used the Germany example but Ballack never sits so Frings has to when Frings does go forward they are exposed unless one of the wide players drifts in, I seen it during the WC when Lahm & the other full back went forward they were effectively playing 253

[NeilMcD]

yeah but stuttgart there are people on here who dont even believe in tactics or managers and sure its just all about the players going and doing there stuff.

[Stuttgart88]

I spent the whole Italy vs Australia game watching jealously, thinking: Irishman X is better than that Aussie, almost throughout the team. Admittedly I thought Cahill was absolute class and Grella, who I'd never heard of before, was a brick wall in front of the back 3. Kewell didn't play.

it's difficult to get 1 quality midfielder in there never mind 2!

So maybe use 3 to compensate?

[endabob1]

I spent the whole Italy vs Australia game watching jealously, thinking: Irishman X is better than that Aussie, almost throughout the team. Admittedly I thought Cahill was absolute class and Grella, who I'd never heard of before, was a brick wall in front of the back 3. Kewell didn't play.

it's difficult to get 1 quality midfielder in there never mind 2!

So maybe use 3 to compensate?


Not wanting to open up a what if debate but wasn't Cahill on course to declare for us when Mick was in charge?

We effectively played with 3 against Germany because Keane was so deep, I felt it just meant we never held the ball when it went forward.
If you play 3/5/2 it can work well or if you have someone like Lampard who will make runs from deep it can work, maye using Stephen Reid in that position still think we'd be too defensive.

[NeilMcD]

It only works if you have a really really good coach who know how to get the player to carry out his thoughts someone like Hiddink. I would not have the faith in Staunton to try something like that. I feel Staunton is a 4-4-2 role up your sleeves lads get stuck in sort of guy and we are going to pay dear for that. The worse your players the better your manager needs to be.

[endabob1]

Indeed, if we had someone like Hiddink I would be more confident in playing a different system as it is with an inexperienced coach and mainly average players who for the most part play 442 week in week out I actually think varying too much from the basics could backfire.
442 with a central player to sit and not cross the halfway line, 2 wide players who need to attack but also have the discipline to track back, that is as complicated as I would make it!

[geysir]

I thought Kerr bemoaned the lack of flexibility of the team to adjust to anything beyond 442 after we played Italy.
Stan had a few precious qualities as a player (rather than precious few)
as well as a class player, he was a leader an organiser, a positive influence and the never say die hard player who you would want to have sniffing around the last chance to save a game.
I'd expect that that's part of what Stan is giving/communicating to this team and aiming to see done on the pitch. The football brainy part of the equation should be Robson.
I'd hope that Robson is chomping at the bit to get himself actively involved in these 2 games.

[Billsthoughts]

yeah but stuttgart there are people on here who dont even believe in tactics or managers and sure its just all about the players going and doing there stuff.

And whats wrong with that?
At the end of the day its a game to be enjoyed not to be turned into something approximating train spotting.
keeping things simple and having a good manager are not mutually exclusive as two World Cups and a European Championships for ourselves proved.

[NeilMcD]

Cause you only get away with having a bad manager if you have really top class players. Also we did not have a bad manager under Charlton. He was a manager who thought he had more limited players than he did have but he got them playing to a system that defenite and never changed but it was cohesive. No team is going to win anything without tactics and system in place. The worse your players are the more you need a good system and tactics in place.

[Billsthoughts]

why do you think a manager who send his players out to do their stuff is a bad manager?
I just think some of ye would be better off talking bout instruction manuals for DVD recorders as talking about football. same differance in the way ye approach it. people always like to think they no more than anyone....

[NeilMcD]

I dont know more than people on here but I do recognise that some managers know more than others and I also recognise that managers make a difference when dealing with a squad of 22 players. There is motiviation, organisation, training and many other aspects to deal with. Its not just enough to go in and say go and play. Especially if you have an average group of players like we do. Greece are proof of what can be achieved with very average players by international standards. The manager got them playing to a system that suited them and they did well as a result. Man for man they were nowhere near some of the other teams but through organisation they won the cup. There are numerous examples of this.

Of course if you have 11 very talented players V 11 lessser talented players and both are organised the same talent will always win. But this is not always the case and a team needs to give them the best chance of winning by being well organised and having a clear plan set out for them.

[Billsthoughts]

yeah
tune in the stations on your DVD recorder......yadda yadda yadda.....:rolleyes:

[NeilMcD]

Bill if you dont like to debate why do you come on here. Seems pretty childish to post a response like that. Its seems if you cant come up with a decent response you resort to child like school yard responses. Also I did not realise you were George Costanzas girlfriend.

[Emmet]

when he gets it right(and I think for the first 25 minutes against the germans he got it spot on) I will be as happy as everyone else.

Right - so you agree that he should be given a fair crack of the whip then? You were saying before that he should have gone after the Germany game (which would of course prevent him from having opportunity to get it right!) I agree with you about Keane's performances for Ireland in the last few matches - he does try silly over-complicated things when he should be taking the simpler option. But I was commenting specifically on his performance against Liverpool last weekend. I saw the game. You didn't! To try and maintain that the scoreline somehow tells you something about one player's performance is a bit false ... players play well and don't score. Players play well and lose. To actually state that it is irrelevant that you didn't actually see the game is very very naive.

[NeilMcD]

Also surely dropping a player is a form of managment also. Or should you just let the players walk into the dressing room and sure pick the team themselves. Oh wait how do you know what squad you have as you need a manager to pick the squad also. Sure why dont we just let anybody who is qualified to play for ireland come into the dressing room and and we have a fight to see who plays.


This reductionist approach to managment is some feable attempt by Bill to suggest he is a rebble who does not fall into the anal analysis of football which is currently in vogue. I agree that people can be over the top and look too much into tactics. However you do need a manager how knows what he is doing, who has clear ideas of what systems he wants his team to use both in general play and at set pieces. Nearly every walk of life bar art , you need a manager to be successful and even then in music successful bands usually make it through good management.

Also your feable attempt at humour does not work either and just shows the post up for a lack of knowledge of any part of the game.

[Billsthoughts]

Bill if you dont like to debate why do you come on here.

just to hear from you love...:)

[Billsthoughts]

Also surely dropping a player is a form of managment also. Or should you just let the players walk into the dressing room and sure pick the team themselves. Oh wait how do you know what squad you have as you need a manager to pick the squad also. Sure why dont we just let anybody who is qualified to play for ireland come into the dressing room and and we have a fight to see who plays.

This reductionist approach to managment is some feable attempt by Bill to suggest he is a rebble who does not fall into the anal analysis of football which is currently in vogue. I agree that people can be over the top and look too much into tactics. However you do need a manager how knows what he is doing, who has clear ideas of what systems he wants his team to use both in general play and at set pieces. Nearly every walk of life bar art , you need a manager to be successful and even then in music successful bands usually make it through good management.
Also your feable attempt at humour does not work either and just shows the post up for a lack of knowledge of any part of the game.

Youve kinda taken your own meaning from what I was saying and ran with it and now ya seem to have gone a bit far with it....:D you should probably keep your "footballers fighting in dressing room over jerseys" fantasy to yourself. I thought you didnt do humour neil so why comment on my attempts?
Basically I do think people over analyse football. its essentially a simple game and the genius of great managers is arguably that they keep it simple or convey an illusion of simplicity to the players. actually last night the panel on rte just backed up my point. You and eirebhouy couldnt think outside the box enough to even contemplate the fact that we might not play a Carsley type player. a holding midfielder in your book, a limited player in mine. try stick to what is actually said Neil and not to what you beleive is being implied.