"Norn Iron"?

[joema]

Excuse my ignorance but why are Northern Ireland called "Norn Iron" ?

[el punter]

Try saying 'Northern Ireland' quickly in an exaggerated Ulster accent :)

[paul_oshea]

it was from the chant for "northern ireland" that they sing at their matches

[joema]

Cheers lads, I thought it might be that but then strted thinking about it too much - Iron industries... :o :o :o

[Strabane_Harp]

its just Northern Ireland in a belfast accent sounds like Norn Iron.

[Gerrit]

Iron = steel = difficult to get through

How we'd like to see the NI defense and such, although it doesn't always work that way unfortunately. See the game vs Iceland and the disastrous offside trap for one...

[dcfcsteve]

Iron = steel = difficult to get through

How we'd like to see the NI defense and such, although it doesn't always work that way unfortunately. See the game vs Iceland and the disastrous offside trap for one...

Wtf ??? This has zero to do with the reasons for the 'Norn Iron' name....... :confused:

[Paddy Ramone]

Norn Iron is the Ulster Scots for Northern Ireland. In the Scots dialect of English, consonants tend to dropped. A few examples

cannae = cannot
football = fitba
lallans = lowlands
English = Inglis
Scottish = Scottis or Scots

The Lowland Scottish word for Irish was Irris which became Erse which also happens to be the Lowland Scottish word for arse. :eek: This might explain some of the prejudice some Northern Unionists and Scots have against the Irish language.

Scots must not be confused with Scots Gaelic the sister language of Irish.

[anto eile]

"scots" isnt a real language. its english spoken with a broad scottish accent. nothing more
same for that "ulster-scots" nonsense
its no more a separate language/dialect than the dublin accent is

[Dassa]

I think people are thinkin too much about it. Its just the way people say it quickly up here.

[Fortuna1886]

Norn Iron is the Ulster Scots for Northern Ireland. In the Scots dialect of English, consonants tend to dropped. A few examples

cannae = cannot
football = fitba
lallans = lowlands
English = Inglis
Scottish = Scottis or Scots

The Lowland Scottish word for Irish was Irris which became Erse which also happens to be the Lowland Scottish word for arse. :eek: This might explain some of the prejudice some Northern Unionists and Scots have against the Irish language.

Scots must not be confused with Scots Gaelic the sister language of Irish.

Jeez! I bet you're a right laugh at parties:) Way too convoluted, just as others said, its how it sounds in our accent. Works both ways, where we would say "Excuse me Madam, I was wondering if you would like to avail of our special offers on pedigree pups?" you might say "De ya wanna boy a dawg"

[dcfcsteve]

Norn Iron is the Ulster Scots for Northern Ireland. In the Scots dialect of English, consonants tend to dropped. A few examples

cannae = cannot
football = fitba
lallans = lowlands
English = Inglis
Scottish = Scottis or Scots

The Northern Irish dialect is related to, but in itself distinct from, the various Scottish dialects. Just like Geordie is related to Scottish dialects, but clearly very different. So it is wrong to describe the linguistic nuances of Northern Ireland in the context of Scottish dialects. For example, nowhere in Northern Ireland is the word 'fitba' in common parlance. Nor do we say 'Polis' for 'Police'.

The Northern Irish dialect tends to clip consonants from the end of words - primarily due to the speed of the speech. That is why accents in parts of the province with a slower than average speech (e.g. Ballymena) tend to clip less (though it is all relative). Hence, we say 'Norn Iron', as it is a lot easier and faster to clip it to 2 syllables rather than keep it at its original 4.


The Lowland Scottish word for Irish was Irris which became Erse which also happens to be the Lowland Scottish word for arse. :eek: This might explain some of the prejudice some Northern Unionists and Scots have against the Irish language.

I think you're looking at things with Ulster Scots tinted glasses again here Paddy.

The word 'Erse' comes from the Old English word for 'Irish' - a word that was not, nor can't be satisfactorily proven to be, specifically of Lowland Scottish origin.

Interestingly, the name 'Scots/Scottish/Scotland' actually comes from the Latin name 'Scoti' for Gaelic speaking/Irish people. Hence Ulster Scots technically means 'Ulster Gaelic / Ulster Irish'... ;)

As for the pejudices of the Unionist community against the Irish language, as we all know that has much deeper and, in some cases, more sinister roots than merely a slang definition for the word 'arse' (itself ironically a word of Germanic origin anyway). Sadly so, given that the ancestors of many of the Unionist community would've been native speakers of Gaidhlig (the Scottish sister language of Gaeilge), and indeed their Presbyterian brethren in the Western Isles still speak the language to this day. So the Irish language is actually closer to the historical, ancestral and linguistic roots of many within the Unionist copmmunity than the English language that many of them instead demand exclusivity/primacy for. The irony of it all.....


Scots must not be confused with Scots Gaelic the sister language of Irish.

True. Nor should Ulster-Scots be confused with other similar, but none-the-less distinct, dialects of the English language - such as Lowland Scots.

[EalingGreen]

As for the pejudices of the Unionist community against the Irish language, as we all know that has much deeper and, in some cases, more sinister roots than merely a slang definition for the word 'arse' (itself ironically a word of Germanic origin anyway). Sadly so, given that the ancestors of many of the Unionist community would've been native speakers of Gaidhlig (the Scottish sister language of Gaeilge), and indeed their Presbyterian brethren in the Western Isles still speak the language to this day. So the Irish language is actually closer to the historical, ancestral and linguistic roots of many within the Unionist copmmunity than the English language that many of them instead demand exclusivity/primacy for. The irony of it all.....


Fascinating post overall, DCFC. However, are you correct in saying that "...the ancestors of many of the Unionist community would have been native speakers of Gaidhlig..."?
If by "Unionist community" you mean those descendants of the various Planters of the 17th Century*, my understanding is that very few indeed came from the Highlands and Islands where Gaidhlig was strongest.
Rather, the vast majority came from Lowland Scotland (esp.Ayrshire and the SW), and the Borders (hence surnames like Armstrong, Johnson etc), but also significant numbers from the English Midlands and also even Cornwall and the South West of England.
As such, the Lowland/Border Scots influenced the main strand of the Ulster dialect now known as Ulster Scots, mostly spoken in Antrim, but also stretching to much of Down, Derry, Donegal and Tyrone. The English settlers influenced the other local dialect of English prevalent in the rest of Ulster inc.Mid-Ulster, Armagh, Fermanagh and Monaghan etc. (I hope I've got the "split" correct from memory - I've not checked)


* - It is also very dangerous to equate modern-day Unionism with Planters and Nationalism with the native Gaels. It always amused me that prominent Unionists such as Harold McCusker and Ken McGuinness had Irish surnames, whereas John Hume and Gerry Adams have typically Planter surnames. ("Soupers" and "Lundys"? ;) )

[TonyD]

Jesus, ask a simple question....:p

[EalingGreen]

Jesus, ask a simple question....:p

Don't you know by now that when it comes to all things Northern Irish, there may be any number of simple questions, but no simple answers? ;)

[dcfcsteve]

Fascinating post overall, DCFC. However, are you correct in saying that "...the ancestors of many of the Unionist community would have been native speakers of Gaidhlig..."?
If by "Unionist community" you mean those descendants of the various Planters of the 17th Century*, my understanding is that very few indeed came from the Highlands and Islands where Gaidhlig was strongest.
Rather, the vast majority came from Lowland Scotland (esp.Ayrshire and the SW), and the Borders (hence surnames like Armstrong, Johnson etc), but also significant numbers from the English Midlands and also even Cornwall and the South West of England.

It's a widespread misconception that Gaidhlig was only a language of the Highlands and Islands in Scotland. Actually, it's more than just a misconception - there has in fact beena deliberate ploy in some quarters to deny Gaidhlig the legitimacy and credibility it deserves as a national language of Scotland (a status which the Scottish Parliament has recently recognised, however).

Whilst the language has always been strongest in the Highlands and Islands, and whilst the process of langauge shift in Lowland Scotland began at an historically much earlier period than it did in ireland, Gaidhlig was still widely spoken throughout Scotland at the time of the Planatation of Ulster in the first half of the 17th Century. Gaidhlig was the official language of the Scottish royal court, for example, prior to the Stuarts taking the English crown in 1603. However, with the Stuart's new found status, there followed thereafter a sustained period of attack upon the Gaidhlig language throughout Scotland. In 1616 the Scottish Privy Council decided to adopt a policy of the universal 'planting' of the English language throughout the country, and the abolition and removal of Gaidhlig. This policy was finally confirmed by the Scottish Parliament in 1631 - at an advanced stage of the Plantation of Ulster.

Despite the rules of the plantation stipulating that those coming over to
Ulster should be English speakers, in practice many weren't, and there is much evidence that many of those from Scotland were exclusively, or bilingually, Gaidhlig speakers - particularly amongst the Prebyterian community. If you are genuinely interested in this whole issue, I would recommend a book by the name of 'Presbyterians and the Irish Language' by Roger Blaney (£6.50. ISBN : 0-901905-72-0). Here is a direct quote from the book with regards the presence of Scottish Gaidhlig speakers in Scots and Irish Gaelic speaking Presbyterian congregations across the period of the Plantation :

"Scots-speaking congregations would often have a Gaelic-speaking minority. Linguistic pressures on them would mean that in time they or their children would learn Scots or English. The Irish speaking congregations would include a significant proportion of Gaelic-speakers from Scotland".

There can be no doubt that a significant number of the Scottish plantationists were of Gaidhlig-speaking stock. Similarly, it is amongst Presbyterian communities in Scotland to this day that the Gaidhlig language remains at its strongest. One of the many shames of post-partition Ireland is that it has tended to give a distorted perspective of Irish (and indeed Scottish) history. In particular - it has perpetuated this myth of 2 very distinct nations in Ireland : the northern/Protestant/Unionist/British/English-speaking one and the southern/Catholic/Nationalist/Gaelic one. In reality there hs always been a great deal of blurring and overlap between the 2 supposedly distinct 'nations', as your mention odf surnames attests.

There is still a healthy degree of interest in their Gaelic/Gaidhlig heritage amongst many Presbyterians in Ireland. The Head of the Department of Irish and Celtic Languages in Trinity College, for example, is a Presbyterian Minister who is a fluent speaker of Ulster Irish, and married to a native Scots Gaidhlig speaker. The 2002 census lists a high proportion of Presbyterians amongst the 11,000 Protestants in NI listed as having a knowledge of Irish. Thankfully there are still some who are willing to reclaim their cultural and religious heritage, despite the pollitical fog that has clouded things over the last 85 years.

[Paddy Ramone]

Rather, the vast majority came from Lowland Scotland (esp.Ayrshire and the SW)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galwegian_language

There may have been Gaelic speakers in South Ayrshire and Galloway in the South West up until 1800.

[Paddy Ramone]

There is still a healthy degree of interest in their Gaelic/Gaidhlig heritage amongst many Presbyterians in Ireland. The Head of the Department of Irish and Celtic Languages in Trinity College, for example, is a Presbyterian Minister who is a fluent speaker of Ulster Irish, and married to a native Scots Gaidhlig speaker. The 2002 census lists a high proportion of Presbyterians amongst the 11,000 Protestants in NI listed as having a knowledge of Irish. Thankfully there are still some who are willing to reclaim their cultural and religious heritage, despite the pollitical fog that has clouded things over the last 85 years.

It might surprise some Irish people who associate Gaelic culture with Catholicism that the vast majority of Gaelic speakers in Scotland are Presbyterian and mainly members of the fundamentalist Free Church of Scotland. Probably only about 15% are Catholic and mostly live on the islands of Barra and South Uist.

There is Protestant and Unionist Ian Malcolm writing for the Irish Language newspaper La. I heard a few years ago the Unionist politician Chris McGimpsey was learning Irish and visting the Kerry Gaeltacht. The McGimpsey surname originated in Co Meath.

[OwlsFan]

Good result last night. Despite the constant Danish pressure in the 2nd half the team defended well. Good support as well by the looks of things.

[CollegeTillIDie]

Well done the wee North. A nice antidote to the abject embarrassment dished out by the Sythe .

[CollegeTillIDie]

As a further additive to the points being made about Gaelic culture and religion....
The whole Idea of Irish Republicanism in the first place was thought up by Presbyterians, such as Henry Joy McCracken, in the 18th Century. This whole religion=national identity ball ox came about in the late 19th Century.

[dcfcsteve]

As a further additive to the points being made about Gaelic culture and religion....
The whole Idea of Irish Republicanism in the first place was thought up by Presbyterians, such as Henry Joy McCracken, in the 18th Century. This whole religion=national identity ball ox came about in the late 19th Century.

It started around the time of the Act of Union (very early 19th Century), when the English did their usual 'divide and rule' strategy.

Rights that had previously been the exclusive preserve of Anglicans were transferred also to Dissenting Protestants (i.e. non-Anglicans). That made it a clear case of Protestants v Catholics in terms of the social fracture, with the newly united Protestants combined in their support of the English connection which guaranteed and legitimised their ascendency. 1798 was the last time any protestant groups as a whole had sided with the Catholics in pursuit of a secular republic.

The revival of Gaelic culture in the late 19th Century, combined with the growth of the concept of 'nationalism' throughout Europe, lead to the two ideologies/issues inevitably being conjoined from then on. But the fracture along religious lines had already happened decades before then.

Some of the most intractable social conflicts in the world to this date began primarily with the utilisation of such 'divide and rule' policies by the English. Think Israel-Palestine, Cyprus, Northern Ireland and Iraq to some extent.

Anyhoo - hopefully somer day the Protestant community in general, and Presbyterians in particular, will feel more comfortable with reclaiming a very rich heritage that is just as much theirs as it is the Catholics.

[BohsPartisan]

bit off topic but just to get the attention of the northern lads to this thread on the Belfast Giants (http://www.foot.ie/showthread.php?p=551006#post551006)

[Dassa]

Anyhoo - hopefully somer day the Protestant community in general, and Presbyterians in particular, will feel more comfortable with reclaiming a very rich heritage that is just as much theirs as it is the Catholics.

many people are, I specifically remember a presbyterian church up here, doing something about mccracken maybe few years back.I believe that people understand their history but accept that times have changed and what their relatives from back then thought isnt the same now, that type of nationalism wasnt specifically about the protestant/RC split like it is percieved to be now.

[David]

It started around the time of the Act of Union (very early 19th Century), when the English did their usual 'divide and rule' strategy.

Rights that had previously been the exclusive preserve of Anglicans were transferred also to Dissenting Protestants (i.e. non-Anglicans). That made it a clear case of Protestants v Catholics in terms of the social fracture, with the newly united Protestants combined in their support of the English connection which guaranteed and legitimised their ascendency. 1798 was the last time any protestant groups as a whole had sided with the Catholics in pursuit of a secular republic.

The revival of Gaelic culture in the late 19th Century, combined with the growth of the concept of 'nationalism' throughout Europe, lead to the two ideologies/issues inevitably being conjoined from then on. But the fracture along religious lines had already happened decades before then.

Some of the most intractable social conflicts in the world to this date began primarily with the utilisation of such 'divide and rule' policies by the English. Think Israel-Palestine, Cyprus, Northern Ireland and Iraq to some extent.

Anyhoo - hopefully somer day the Protestant community in general, and Presbyterians in particular, will feel more comfortable with reclaiming a very rich heritage that is just as much theirs as it is the Catholics.

As far as the Gaelic language goes I think it has been turned into a political football. Each to their own but Gaelic, like Ulster Scots, is a language I would have no desire to learn. I would want to learn a language to communicate with people that I cannot communicate with now and neither of these languages really enable me to do that as the very vast majority of speakers of either language also speak English. Each to their own, if people want to learn them then do so but I am certainly against the amount of public money being thrown at either or both.

[BohsPartisan]

As far as the Gaelic language goes I think it has been turned into a political football. Each to their own but Gaelic, like Ulster Scots, is a language I would have no desire to learn. I would want to learn a language to communicate with people that I cannot communicate with now and neither of these languages really enable me to do that as the very vast majority of speakers of either language also speak English. Each to their own, if people want to learn them then do so but I am certainly against the amount of public money being thrown at either or both.


A lot of people down south have no interest in learning them either.
Personally I think it would be a bad thing for either of those languages to become extinct as they are part of our heritage and helped shape our culture and society but like yourself I couldn't be bothered learning Irish. I was rubbish at it in school mainly because of a serious lack of interest in it.
What I am interested in is how those languages shaped the type of English we speak. There is an interesting reference book called A Dictionary of Hiberno-English by T.P. Dolan.

[dcfcsteve]

As far as the Gaelic language goes I think it has been turned into a political football. Each to their own but Gaelic, like Ulster Scots, is a language I would have no desire to learn. I would want to learn a language to communicate with people that I cannot communicate with now and neither of these languages really enable me to do that as the very vast majority of speakers of either language also speak English. Each to their own, if people want to learn them then do so but I am certainly against the amount of public money being thrown at either or both.

I agree wth you on the political football bit, which is a huge shame.

However - the best way to stop someone using something against you is to claim/reclaim it for yourself. Hence, previously offensive words like 'fag' and to some extent '******' have had a lot of their venom removed by their utilisation by the communities they were previously used to hurt.

If sections of the Protestant community reclaimed Irish, it would prevent the Shinners form using it as their own exclusive political play-thing, and help remove the whole politicisation of it. Wishful thinking I fear though..

As for the value of languages, I understand your view but I'm afarid I don't accept it. Languages are livng things - yes, even Irish - and their fortunes can improve as well as decline with time. 50 years ago you coiuld have said what was the point in learning Hebrew or Basque, but both are much more vibrant langauges now than they were then. In Hebrew's case it has been literally resurrected from the dead. In fact - what is the point of learning any language really apart from English and perhaps Spanish and French, as those 3 will enable you to communuicate with the vast majority of people you're ever likely to encounter in your life.

As for Ulster Scots, I'm a huge advocate of linguistic diversity. However, I find it disappointing and frankly ridiculous that a certain section of the protestant community has taken an old, essentially extinct dialect of English and used the peace process to have their play-thing elevated to language-status in order to create their own political football to throw-back Dodgeball-style in the face of the Irish Language. Even within the grossly petty history of politics in NI, that is a new low in terms of patheticness. I have no problems with activities to study, preserve and promote the Ullans dialect, but to pretend that it's a language and commit public money to it on that basis is the real affrontery in Northern Irish politico-linguistics.

[Poor Student]

Interesting as the matters may be, this would be better discussed in the current affairs forum.