"Norn Iron"?

[joema]

Excuse my ignorance but why are Northern Ireland called "Norn Iron" ?

[el punter]

Try saying 'Northern Ireland' quickly in an exaggerated Ulster accent

[paul_oshea]

it was from the chant for "northern ireland" that they sing at their matches

[joema]

Cheers lads, I thought it might be that but then strted thinking about it too much - Iron industries...

[Strabane_Harp]

its just Northern Ireland in a belfast accent sounds like Norn Iron.

[Gerrit]

Iron = steel = difficult to get through

How we'd like to see the NI defense and such, although it doesn't always work that way unfortunately. See the game vs Iceland and the disastrous offside trap for one...

[dcfcsteve]

Iron = steel = difficult to get through

How we'd like to see the NI defense and such, although it doesn't always work that way unfortunately. See the game vs Iceland and the disastrous offside trap for one...

Wtf ??? This has zero to do with the reasons for the 'Norn Iron' name.......

[Paddy Ramone]

Norn Iron is the Ulster Scots for Northern Ireland. In the Scots dialect of English, consonants tend to dropped. A few examples

cannae = cannot
football = fitba
lallans = lowlands
English = Inglis
Scottish = Scottis or Scots

The Lowland Scottish word for Irish was Irris which became Erse which also happens to be the Lowland Scottish word for arse. This might explain some of the prejudice some Northern Unionists and Scots have against the Irish language.

Scots must not be confused with Scots Gaelic the sister language of Irish.

[anto eile]

"scots" isnt a real language. its english spoken with a broad scottish accent. nothing more
same for that "ulster-scots" nonsense
its no more a separate language/dialect than the dublin accent is

[Dassa]

I think people are thinkin too much about it. Its just the way people say it quickly up here.

[Fortuna1886]

Norn Iron is the Ulster Scots for Northern Ireland. In the Scots dialect of English, consonants tend to dropped. A few examples

cannae = cannot
football = fitba
lallans = lowlands
English = Inglis
Scottish = Scottis or Scots

The Lowland Scottish word for Irish was Irris which became Erse which also happens to be the Lowland Scottish word for arse. This might explain some of the prejudice some Northern Unionists and Scots have against the Irish language.

Scots must not be confused with Scots Gaelic the sister language of Irish.

Jeez! I bet you're a right laugh at parties Way too convoluted, just as others said, its how it sounds in our accent. Works both ways, where we would say "Excuse me Madam, I was wondering if you would like to avail of our special offers on pedigree pups?" you might say "De ya wanna boy a dawg"

[dcfcsteve]

Norn Iron is the Ulster Scots for Northern Ireland. In the Scots dialect of English, consonants tend to dropped. A few examples

cannae = cannot
football = fitba
lallans = lowlands
English = Inglis
Scottish = Scottis or Scots

The Northern Irish dialect is related to, but in itself distinct from, the various Scottish dialects. Just like Geordie is related to Scottish dialects, but clearly very different. So it is wrong to describe the linguistic nuances of Northern Ireland in the context of Scottish dialects. For example, nowhere in Northern Ireland is the word 'fitba' in common parlance. Nor do we say 'Polis' for 'Police'.

The Northern Irish dialect tends to clip consonants from the end of words - primarily due to the speed of the speech. That is why accents in parts of the province with a slower than average speech (e.g. Ballymena) tend to clip less (though it is all relative). Hence, we say 'Norn Iron', as it is a lot easier and faster to clip it to 2 syllables rather than keep it at its original 4.

The Lowland Scottish word for Irish was Irris which became Erse which also happens to be the Lowland Scottish word for arse. This might explain some of the prejudice some Northern Unionists and Scots have against the Irish language.

I think you're looking at things with Ulster Scots tinted glasses again here Paddy.

The word 'Erse' comes from the Old English word for 'Irish' - a word that was not, nor can't be satisfactorily proven to be, specifically of Lowland Scottish origin.

Interestingly, the name 'Scots/Scottish/Scotland' actually comes from the Latin name 'Scoti' for Gaelic speaking/Irish people. Hence Ulster Scots technically means 'Ulster Gaelic / Ulster Irish'...

As for the pejudices of the Unionist community against the Irish language, as we all know that has much deeper and, in some cases, more sinister roots than merely a slang definition for the word 'arse' (itself ironically a word of Germanic origin anyway). Sadly so, given that the ancestors of many of the Unionist community would've been native speakers of Gaidhlig (the Scottish sister language of Gaeilge), and indeed their Presbyterian brethren in the Western Isles still speak the language to this day. So the Irish language is actually closer to the historical, ancestral and linguistic roots of many within the Unionist copmmunity than the English language that many of them instead demand exclusivity/primacy for. The irony of it all.....

Scots must not be confused with Scots Gaelic the sister language of Irish.

True. Nor should Ulster-Scots be confused with other similar, but none-the-less distinct, dialects of the English language - such as Lowland Scots.

[EalingGreen]

As for the pejudices of the Unionist community against the Irish language, as we all know that has much deeper and, in some cases, more sinister roots than merely a slang definition for the word 'arse' (itself ironically a word of Germanic origin anyway). Sadly so, given that the ancestors of many of the Unionist community would've been native speakers of Gaidhlig (the Scottish sister language of Gaeilge), and indeed their Presbyterian brethren in the Western Isles still speak the language to this day. So the Irish language is actually closer to the historical, ancestral and linguistic roots of many within the Unionist copmmunity than the English language that many of them instead demand exclusivity/primacy for. The irony of it all.....

Fascinating post overall, DCFC. However, are you correct in saying that "...the ancestors of many of the Unionist community would have been native speakers of Gaidhlig..."?
If by "Unionist community" you mean those descendants of the various Planters of the 17th Century*, my understanding is that very few indeed came from the Highlands and Islands where Gaidhlig was strongest.
Rather, the vast majority came from Lowland Scotland (esp.Ayrshire and the SW), and the Borders (hence surnames like Armstrong, Johnson etc), but also significant numbers from the English Midlands and also even Cornwall and the South West of England.
As such, the Lowland/Border Scots influenced the main strand of the Ulster dialect now known as Ulster Scots, mostly spoken in Antrim, but also stretching to much of Down, Derry, Donegal and Tyrone. The English settlers influenced the other local dialect of English prevalent in the rest of Ulster inc.Mid-Ulster, Armagh, Fermanagh and Monaghan etc. (I hope I've got the "split" correct from memory - I've not checked)


* - It is also very dangerous to equate modern-day Unionism with Planters and Nationalism with the native Gaels. It always amused me that prominent Unionists such as Harold McCusker and Ken McGuinness had Irish surnames, whereas John Hume and Gerry Adams have typically Planter surnames. ("Soupers" and "Lundys"? )

[TonyD]

Jesus, ask a simple question....

[EalingGreen]

Jesus, ask a simple question....

Don't you know by now that when it comes to all things Northern Irish, there may be any number of simple questions, but no simple answers?

[dcfcsteve]

Fascinating post overall, DCFC. However, are you correct in saying that "...the ancestors of many of the Unionist community would have been native speakers of Gaidhlig..."?
If by "Unionist community" you mean those descendants of the various Planters of the 17th Century*, my understanding is that very few indeed came from the Highlands and Islands where Gaidhlig was strongest.
Rather, the vast majority came from Lowland Scotland (esp.Ayrshire and the SW), and the Borders (hence surnames like Armstrong, Johnson etc), but also significant numbers from the English Midlands and also even Cornwall and the South West of England.

It's a widespread misconception that Gaidhlig was only a language of the Highlands and Islands in Scotland. Actually, it's more than just a misconception - there has in fact beena deliberate ploy in some quarters to deny Gaidhlig the legitimacy and credibility it deserves as a national language of Scotland (a status which the Scottish Parliament has recently recognised, however).

Whilst the language has always been strongest in the Highlands and Islands, and whilst the process of langauge shift in Lowland Scotland began at an historically much earlier period than it did in ireland, Gaidhlig was still widely spoken throughout Scotland at the time of the Planatation of Ulster in the first half of the 17th Century. Gaidhlig was the official language of the Scottish royal court, for example, prior to the Stuarts taking the English crown in 1603. However, with the Stuart's new found status, there followed thereafter a sustained period of attack upon the Gaidhlig language throughout Scotland. In 1616 the Scottish Privy Council decided to adopt a policy of the universal 'planting' of the English language throughout the country, and the abolition and removal of Gaidhlig. This policy was finally confirmed by the Scottish Parliament in 1631 - at an advanced stage of the Plantation of Ulster.

Despite the rules of the plantation stipulating that those coming over to
Ulster should be English speakers, in practice many weren't, and there is much evidence that many of those from Scotland were exclusively, or bilingually, Gaidhlig speakers - particularly amongst the Prebyterian community. If you are genuinely interested in this whole issue, I would recommend a book by the name of 'Presbyterians and the Irish Language' by Roger Blaney (£6.50. ISBN : 0-901905-72-0). Here is a direct quote from the book with regards the presence of Scottish Gaidhlig speakers in Scots and Irish Gaelic speaking Presbyterian congregations across the period of the Plantation :

"Scots-speaking congregations would often have a Gaelic-speaking minority. Linguistic pressures on them would mean that in time they or their children would learn Scots or English. The Irish speaking congregations would include a significant proportion of Gaelic-speakers from Scotland".

There can be no doubt that a significant number of the Scottish plantationists were of Gaidhlig-speaking stock. Similarly, it is amongst Presbyterian communities in Scotland to this day that the Gaidhlig language remains at its strongest. One of the many shames of post-partition Ireland is that it has tended to give a distorted perspective of Irish (and indeed Scottish) history. In particular - it has perpetuated this myth of 2 very distinct nations in Ireland : the northern/Protestant/Unionist/British/English-speaking one and the southern/Catholic/Nationalist/Gaelic one. In reality there hs always been a great deal of blurring and overlap between the 2 supposedly distinct 'nations', as your mention odf surnames attests.

There is still a healthy degree of interest in their Gaelic/Gaidhlig heritage amongst many Presbyterians in Ireland. The Head of the Department of Irish and Celtic Languages in Trinity College, for example, is a Presbyterian Minister who is a fluent speaker of Ulster Irish, and married to a native Scots Gaidhlig speaker. The 2002 census lists a high proportion of Presbyterians amongst the 11,000 Protestants in NI listed as having a knowledge of Irish. Thankfully there are still some who are willing to reclaim their cultural and religious heritage, despite the pollitical fog that has clouded things over the last 85 years.

[Paddy Ramone]

Rather, the vast majority came from Lowland Scotland (esp.Ayrshire and the SW)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galwegian_language

There may have been Gaelic speakers in South Ayrshire and Galloway in the South West up until 1800.

[Paddy Ramone]

There is still a healthy degree of interest in their Gaelic/Gaidhlig heritage amongst many Presbyterians in Ireland. The Head of the Department of Irish and Celtic Languages in Trinity College, for example, is a Presbyterian Minister who is a fluent speaker of Ulster Irish, and married to a native Scots Gaidhlig speaker. The 2002 census lists a high proportion of Presbyterians amongst the 11,000 Protestants in NI listed as having a knowledge of Irish. Thankfully there are still some who are willing to reclaim their cultural and religious heritage, despite the pollitical fog that has clouded things over the last 85 years.

It might surprise some Irish people who associate Gaelic culture with Catholicism that the vast majority of Gaelic speakers in Scotland are Presbyterian and mainly members of the fundamentalist Free Church of Scotland. Probably only about 15% are Catholic and mostly live on the islands of Barra and South Uist.

There is Protestant and Unionist Ian Malcolm writing for the Irish Language newspaper La. I heard a few years ago the Unionist politician Chris McGimpsey was learning Irish and visting the Kerry Gaeltacht. The McGimpsey surname originated in Co Meath.

[OwlsFan]

Good result last night. Despite the constant Danish pressure in the 2nd half the team defended well. Good support as well by the looks of things.

[CollegeTillIDie]

Well done the wee North. A nice antidote to the abject embarrassment dished out by the Sythe .