What to do with the minnows

[cavan_fan]

I see England's game with Andorra has sparked a bit of a whinge from club managers. Although I know there are vested interests here, I think it's time for a bit of a rethink on International Qualifying.

Currently Europe has 52 teams, Montenegro will make this 53 for WC2010. Most other confederations operate a multi stage approach (Africa, Asia and Australasia certainly do and there isnt as great a spread of ability in South America, I would suggest even Venezuela could qualify for the WC)

I think matches like Germany - San Marino do nothing for either side. They simply give international football bashers a stick to beat us up with and they must be demoralising for the small teams.

So I would propose that we set a cap on the number of teams in full qualifying. I'd like the top 2 in each group to qualify for the tournament always and as there are always at least 12 places open I would suggest we have 6 groups of 7 teams. Most groups in EC2008 have 7 teams and so there will be no fewer matches, just better ones. Any other places would be filled by play offs amongst the 3rd place teams.

Ignoring host nations this means at present 9 or 10 teams teams not playing full qualifying. They would be chosen based on the previous campaign (not on TV markets, 'historical performance' etc.)

In parallel with the full qualifying the weaker nations play a league of their own (League B). I would suggest regular games against Luxembourg may do more for Andorra than playing England.

At the end of the full qualifying the top 3 teams in League B are promoted and replace 3 teams chosen by play offs between the bottom team in each group of full qualifying. If the next tournament has 2 hosts more teams are promoted but there should always be 42 teams in full qualifying.

Any new teams have to start in League B. I suspect this may dissuade the creation of a Vatican team.

Finally we should take the opportunity to bid farewell to Israel (if they cant get on with their neighbours that's their problem not ours).

[Over the post]

Steady on! The way things are going we could end up being classed as minnows ourselves :eek:

[mypost]

I see England's game with Andorra has sparked a bit of a whinge from club managers.

I think matches like Germany - San Marino do nothing for either side. They simply give international football bashers a stick to beat us up with and they must be demoralising for the small teams.

So I would propose that we set a cap on the number of teams in full qualifying.

Such a cap works all the time in club football, but can't be allowed to happen in international football. These games bring revenue in for the associations, and give their players European experience. Where would Greece, Turkey, and Norway be now, if there were such severe restrictions in place 20 years ago?? :confused:

[Pauro 76]

Thought the English press were unbearably smug today about the minnows situation. Yes i know England were good and Andorra dreadful, but the way they were going on about it with their superior attitude, it makes me want to cheer on Macedonia from the rafters.

[LeixlipRed]

I'm sure that game Andorra played at Old Trafford pays for their next trip to Macedonia or wherever. Without that revenue could they afford to fly around Europe playing minnows like themselves? Probably not. Anyway, the minnows will be laughing when the Chareloi case makes it impossible for the big associations to play anybody earning more than a few grand a week

[Ceirtlis]

Andorra are a horrible team. They do be time wasting even when they are 4 or 5 goals down and they bring nothing to the international game. As has been said a thousand times there should be a qualification for them to get into the main groups. They are never going to qualify for anything.

[pineapple stu]

I think matches like Germany - San Marino do nothing for either side.
On the contrary. The Sammarinese FA will earn a hell of a lot of money from the game through TV rights, which would be used to improve the game in the country. Ultimately, football is for everyone - not just international players or top club players - so any scheme which results in more money going into a country's grass roots facilities should be commended, not rejected. It's one of the last places in sport you'll see an entire family working together, effectively helping each other out. Should money grabbing ruin this as well?

On a personal note, games against the likes of the Faroes and San Marino give me the chance to visit places I'd never normally think of going. Anyone who was in the Faroes last June would surely not want a situation where such trips could be ruled out because the Faroes aren't strong enough (holding us, of course, to 2-0 wins each time).

And for the countries and players involved, it's a massive bonus to have the biggest players coming to visit - read Charlie Connolly's book Stamping Grounds for a great idea of what it means for the Liechtenstein players to play against Spain and England.

And ultimately, we're talking about 14 games over a fourteen-month period. Hardly putting undue strain on the poor little dears.

[holidaysong]

I 100% disagree with setting up a minnow league. I love the way we do qualification in Europe and don't want to see it change.

As for Israel, I have no problem with them being members of UEFA.


...read Charlie Connolly's book Stamping Grounds for a great idea of what it means for the Liechtenstein players to play against Spain and England.

I really love that book.

"Super Liechtenstein only lose 1-0." :D

[Raheny Red]

This thread of reminds me of Gerrit he absolutely loves the small nations of interantional football, anyone know where he is??

[Lim till i die]

Anyone else notice notorius smug git Oliver Holt in the Mirror today going on about how the minnows should have to pre-qualify?

Maybe fair comment - Except he lumped Northern Ireland in to that category - as in beat England last year Northern Ireland :rolleyes:

Arrogant to$$er :mad:

[Closed Account 2]

I think Macedonia will turn the English over in Skopje...

[pineapple stu]

In the Sunday Times (English version), they lumped in Azerbaijan, before conceding that England only won 1-0 out there the last time. Also put in Kazakhstan, who just drew 0-0 in Belgium. They'd probably have ogne for Latvia only they qualified for Euro 2004, showing that for many smaller countries, miracles can happen and shouldn't be cut off because England don't feel like playing them.

[theworm2345]

I suspect this may dissuade the creation of a Vatican team.
They have a team...2 draws in 2 matches. They dont have enough citizens (only Swiss Guards and Clergy members), on the 2 occasions, they drew with Monaco and, yes, San Marino. Recently they played some team from Switzerland, and beat them handily (5-1?). They, Nauru and Mayotte are the only undefeated national football teams.
However, back on topic, though its true they can be embarrased (think Australia 31 - 0 American Samoa, and 22 - 0 Tonga). But to be honest, Cyprus wouldnt make it through, and they almost be us. Just the possibility of beating these teams can be great for them. Plus they can be good to get your younger players some experience

[cavan_fan]

To set some context for this I'd guess if we are talking about 8 teams missing out they might be:


Andorra
Faroes
Liechtenstein
San Marino
Luxembourg
Malta
Azerbaijan (?)
Kazakhstan (?)

Quite apart from the debate about the European-ness of the last 2 teams (Azerbaijan is as far east as Iraq and Kazakhstan as far east as Pakistan), I'd argue that there is no great problem funding football in these areas.

The first four of these are tiny countries. How much money can it take to fund football in Liechtenstein (which by the way is hardly cash strapped).

You might say Luxembourg and Malta are reasonable sized countries (though I'm not sure how well the Luxemburger(?) FA are spending their money if they are Europe’s lowest ranked FA.

But even if we take it that qualifying has a role in funding football, this could be dealt with by UEFA making a grant to the various FA's. I suspect Germany would rather pay the San Marino FA 100,000 euro than have to play them.

As I said above the problem is that were Thierry Henry to be injured and out for a year playing for France against some part timer from Andorra out to make a name for himself, Arsenal would rightly complain and this will weaken international football.

A lot of the arguments against this idea seem to be money based. Does anyone disagree that Andorra would improve by playing teams of similar quality and possibly having e.g. a meaningful match against Malta with the winners making it through to the main qualifying group. Even if this is played in front of 5,000 people in Valetta it's surely better than some patronising freak show in front of 50,000 at Old Trafford.

[pineapple stu]

As I said above the problem is that were Thierry Henry to be injured and out for a year playing for France against some part timer from Andorra out to make a name for himself, Arsenal would rightly complain and this will weaken international football.
The country he gets injured against is irrelevant in this context. Arsenal - or any other big club - would complain (and indeed Charleroi currently are complaining) regardless.


Does anyone disagree that Andorra would improve by playing teams of similar quality and possibly having e.g. a meaningful match against Malta with the winners making it through to the main qualifying group.
I do. Andorra v Malta isn't going to make either team better. Andorra or Malta v someone like Slovenia, Slovakia, etc, will make the improve. Best way to improve is to test yourself against better opposition, not similar standard opposition.

Of the teams you mention, Andorra beat Macedonia last time out, who in turn drew twice with Holland. The Faroes have drawn with Scotland and come within a minute of drawing with Germany. Liechtenstein have drawn with us, Portugal and Slovakia, and beat Luxembourg home and away. Kazakhstan drew 0-0 with Belgium last month and are only new to European football (they qualify for Europe because they are at least partly in Europe). Azerbaijan drew with Wales, NI and Austria at home and lost just 1-0 to England. Some of these results can ultimately be crucial to the group standings (we were steeped to qualify for the Euro 96 play-off after drawing with Liechtenstein). Why potentially skew qualifying just because you feel you're too good to play a team?

Do you have any basis for assuming that there's no great problem funding football in the countries you named? There's always pressure for money, so if an FA can be made more self-sufficient through big gates and TV rights, so much the better for the country.

By and large, these teams are new and improving (I will allow that Andorra appear to be a shower of diving feckers, but Liechtenstein and the Faroes, for example, have made great strides in recent times, as results in the last campaign will show). That's because of the way qualifying is set up. Why should we stop this because we feel we're too good for them?

[cavan_fan]

Of course these teams have had some good results (though a lot of them appear to be 0-0 draws) but I'm not suggesting these results shoudl be ignored. Relegation should be based on merit and that means teams who finish bottom go into a lower league.

This isnt some sort of we're too good for you snobbery but sport is based on the fact that winning brings rewards. At present there is no prupose to any of Andorra, Faroes etc matches. They will never qualify for a tournament but there is nor pressure to improve since they are guaranteed to stay in their current position. Competitive football isnt a benevolent charity it should be at least partially about desire to win and fear of losing. At the monment Andorra have neither.

[pineapple stu]

Who says purpose - or success - is measured solely in terms of qualifying? Success is relative.

There's quite a lot of teams who will never qualify for a tournament - let's kick them all out while we're at it, and just start with the tournament proper. Macedonia may never qualify - they may beat us and draw with England, but that's not good enough - let's kick them out. Latvia will never qualify for a tournament. Except they did, coming from absolutely nowhere to do so. Why take away the chance of a country's - and its people's greatest hour - because we don't want to play them?

Liechtenstein drew 2-2 with Portugal; the Faroes drew 2-2 with Scotland; Azerbaijan drew 1-1 with Wales and NI. Liechtenstein beat Luxembourg 4-1 and 3-0. Plenty of non 0-0s.

There is every pressure to improve for the minnows. The basic precept of sport is to strive to be the best that you can be. Are you saying that when these players go out to represent their country, they're not trying their best? Their aim for improvement is always to beat their best.

We have to accept that Europe is what it is, and that there are smaller countries who are part of the same association as we are and who have the same rights to try and pit themselves against the continent as we do. Pre-qualifing in other countries is largely due to the size of the continent - both number of countries and the distances - and saving costs. In addition, the worst teams in Europe are still only half-way down the world rankings and are much better than the worst teams elsewhere (South America excepted). So comparing Europe to Asia, or American Samoa to San Marino isn't appropriate.

[cavan_fan]

I have never suggested kicking anyone out, my suggestion means that if Andorra improve they will first be promoted and tehn have to keep their place and rise up the rankings.

I disagree that Macedonia could never qualify, Latvia were at the last Euro's and I dont see much difference there.

The small teams are becoming like those pedigree dogs you see, bred for one skill only, namely defence. The score pitifully few goals but in 95% of matches they simply put 10 men behind the ball. I dont blame them for this indeed it's worth remebering that after one of the highlights of minnow football (San Marino's goal v England) England went on to score 8.

A Maltese team that had to play similar teams for 2 years might just be better able to have a proper game against Northern Ireland (e.g.) than they currently have.

[Student Mullet]

Best way to improve is to test yourself against better opposition, not similar standard opposition.I don't agree with you there at all. I learned nothing when our team was at the wrong end of a 22-0 scoreline.

The bottom end of european football is gone stale, the same as the bottom of the first division. With no relegation there is no excitment in the first division for the teams not challenging for promotion. If a team finishing last in a european qualifying group had to win a playoff to keep its place for the next group it would add meaning to the games.

[pineapple stu]

Remind me when there was last a 22-0 in a European qualifier? Even double figures is exceedingly rare. Most of these teams are new to the international scene and are progressing. The gap between best and worst isn't exactly Australia v American Samoa.

Plus, they're the best away trips!

[The Legend]

When is the Vatican City State going to have its own soccer team?

"... John Terry gets the ball back.... oh no what a terrible pass to Robinson... Pope Benedict XVI could be in here... rounds the keeper... gooooaaaalllll.... with 5 minutes gone, its just 54 - 1 to England, can Vatican get back in this game!" :D

[pineapple stu]

I don't know - any team with God on their side would be handy enough.

[The Legend]

Yeah, and bringing the inquisiton in off the bench would terrify the opposition!

[theworm2345]

Germany is crushing San Marino 6-0...at half time

[LeixlipRed]

10-0 now

[theworm2345]

Make it 12-0

[holidaysong]

13 - 0 now... We are fudged if it comes down to goal difference with the Germans. That result is like an extra point.

Re: minnows. Gibraltar are bidding for UEFA membership.

Aertel (http://www.rte.ie/aertel/p226.htm)

[Marked Man]

Stop worrying; there's no way that it's going to come down to GD with us and Germany.

[SunnySweeney]

some of these minnows are so small that when they play at places like Old Trafford or Celtic Park the attendance is actually larger than their country's entire population.

Faroe Islands Population: 46,962 Celtic Park Attendance : 50,059
Andorra Population: 70,549 Old Trafford Attendance:56,290

[Schumi]

Stop worrying; there's no way that it's going to come down to GD with us and Germany.

Might come down to goal idfference with San Marino though so it's a good result for us. :D

[Dassa]

It shouldnt matter about the size of a country or their record. A country is a country and deserve their place in world football. The only way teams get better is by trying to raise their game for the better teams.

P{S I see that UEFA might be getting a new member- Gibraltar. good luck to them.

[pineapple stu]

I wonder how many potential new countries remain in Europe? Are Kosovo likely to gain independence? Is Chechnya in Europe at all? Or have we about reached the limit of the number of countries we can realistically expect in European qualifiers from now on?

[cavan_fan]

Agree there are not that many new countries to come through (in addition to your list it's possible Greenland may want a team and perhaps Monaco but I believe the club would oppose this).

The real influx could be regional teams based on the Scotland/Wales principles. We could have Catalonia, Basque, Brittany, 2 teams in Belgium etc etc etc.

I would say that to my mind Catalonia is more entitled to a team than Andorra/San Marino which in reality appear to be medieval based vanity projects.

[Leeza]

Personally I think the minnows should play a miny competition every two years when the bigger European teams are at the competitions. Basically, trimming the groups down to five or six would be perfect. The competition would obviously not include all those nations who had qualified for a major tournament, but ten or fifteen nations (Including Norn Ireland, and even us at this stage) would take part in something similar to the inter-toto cup

Just an idea I had probably makes no sense!

[lefty]

Go on the Gib, ha if they enter does that mean theyll have to have representatives in the uefa cup and cl etc. An easy round for irish teams and a lovely chance to visit the rock. What about Greenland why arent they in it and why not include our friends from the Isle of Man and the likes of Kaliningrad, and as stu said Kosovo shouldnt they get a team to, there will always be plenty of fans at their games considering the huge numbers of soldiers there. A special mention must go to the Vatican, if San Marino can have a team so can they. But last but by no means least how about the self-declared republic of Transnistria which is about to vote on its future, as it looks to break away from the tiny republic of moldova. I love small countries :D

[Poor Student]

Greenland only has a narrow period of two or three months where the pitches are capable of outdoor football. Isle of Man clubs play in the lower league of Northern England but they probably could join UEFA if they pushed hard enough. Kaliningrad is just part of Russia. Kosovo could well have a team if they become independent within the next 5 years. Don't know how likely it is that Transnistria could become properly independent but their top club Sheriff Tiraspol regurlarly competes in Europe.

[NeilMcD]

Might come down to goal idfference with San Marino though so it's a good result for us. :D

Post of the month

[pineapple stu]

The real influx could be regional teams based on the Scotland/Wales principles. We could have Catalonia, Basque, Brittany, 2 teams in Belgium etc etc etc.
I think England, Scotland, Wales and NI are there and aren't going to get kicked out at this stage; however, UEFA aren't going to allow any other such countries in. So that doesn't seem to be an issue.

My only concern with European groups would be the size of the groups nowadays. I think 7 is about as big as it should get really.

[lefty]

There is a pretty big case for catalunya to be in it

[Gerrit]

I will read the entire thread later, but... minnows are as necessary to football as top teams. They have to be there. International football is not about level, it's about people representing their countries and about involving the whole world in the football party. You cannot just exclude a nation from participating because they don't have any top players, you cannot just forbid people practising their hobby just because they're noit very good at it. San Marino, Luxembourg, Andorra, etc are countries with football fans just like all other nations ; they have as many rights to participate as England or Italy have. I for one have much respect for their players. I mean, San Marino get hammered every game, but the players still go for it 100% and give themselves 100% every game, purely out of love for the game and out of national pride. I have deep respect for that, I cannot see Beckham or Del Piero do that if they wouldn't get paid for it. Amateur sports is the true spirit of sports as it should be, and it's very important we give every nation the chance to participate. Football is as elite-esque as it is already, I'd hate to see it growing even more elitist. Long live teams like Liechtenstein or San Marino, I find it a pleasure to see the enthousiasm and dedication of their teams despite all the losses.

PS: not just Montenegro will become UEFA members, also Gibraltar. The highest court in European sports ruled the Spanish objections as not acceptable, and forced UEFA to welcome Gibraltar. Justice has conquered in that case.

[Gerrit]

Re Greenland: UEFA stated several times that Greenland is welcome when their stadiuum (under construction in Nuuk) is finished, they will affiliate within the next couple of years.

Isle of Man and the Channel Islands do not meet the criteria of UEFA to be seen an independent nation.

Vatican City has showed interest in joining UEFA and will very likely do so in the near future.

Vatican City and Greenland already play regular games in non-FIFA tournaments, and both will very likely be into UEFA within the next 5 to 10 years maximum.

[mypost]

If we invite Greenland in, then why don't we allow Quebec, Bermuda, Kashmir, Corsica, Sardinia, Sicily, Rhodes, South Ossetia?? :confused: If Greenland are considered to be in Europe when it's nearer to Canada, why don't we open the doors to anyone that considers themselves a state, in or near Europe?

This is a lean period in the credibility of International football, which is treated as a joke and a nuisance by club managers, and retired from early by players. Admitting more states in for fun, will only weaken it's value further. Vatican City, ffs. :mad: Why don't they just call it "Rome"?? Will the players go to worship sorry, play games, wearing collars??

UEFA will have lost the plot, if they allow any more obscure nations in. The qualifying groups are heavy enough as it is, without more joke "countries" being admitted to play in them. :mad:

[Gerrit]

That's not the problem of the minnows. Every nation has the right to play, it's up to the big guns to make sure their players can cope with the extra games.

Also, it may be interesting for you to know that a nation is free to affiliate with whatever continental federation they wish. That is why Israel, Australia, Guam, Surinam and Guyana all play outside of their geographical continent. Every nation is free to ask affiliation with any federation, as long as the continental federation agrees there's no problem. Ireland can ask the South American federation to join, and if they agree then FIFA will not stop it.

In case of Greenland, the problem is not even there. Greenland is on the border of Europe and America, but politically it is considered Europe. They even used to be EU members!

Vatican City is an independent country, so they have all right to play. Their team consists of only administrative personnel and security staff, no priests or clerical people are involved so please don't make joke statements about wearing a collar on the pitch. Vatican City's team is as normal as any other team, and the team itself has absolutely nothing to do with the Church as organisation, apart from the sole fact that the players all emigrated to the Vatican to work as staffmember for the Vatican State. That is something completely different from a team constituted out of priests.

South Ossetia and Corsica sometimes compete in non-FIFA tournaments and seek no affiliation with the UEFA.

To be able to join UEFA the nation must have semi-independence and a large distance to their homeland. Therefore Greenland, Faroe Islands and Gibraltar can affiliate without any problem, while the Isle of Man cannot because it is too close to mainland UK. This rule makes perfect sense IMHO: if a trip to the mainland is too expensive and difficult to do every weekend (like with Faroes or Greenland) then the nation's clubs cannot participate in their mainland nation's league so they have no choice but to organise football themselves. Perfectly justified to see them as independent nations football-wise.

[cavan_fan]

There is a misunderstanding in many of these posts which say things like 'every country has the right to its own team'. I don't disagree with thatbut it doesnt mean they all have to play in the same league. In the same way not all teams play in the Champions League Group Stage, the Premiership or hundreds of other tournaments, what is wrong with them playing other international teams in a pre qualifying tournament. They will get caps etc. and if the team plays well they will be promoted. No-one would be removing any country's rights.

[Gerrit]

There is a misunderstanding in many of these posts which say things like 'every country has the right to its own team'. I don't disagree with thatbut it doesnt mean they all have to play in the same league. In the same way not all teams play in the Champions League Group Stage, the Premiership or hundreds of other tournaments, what is wrong with them playing other international teams in a pre qualifying tournament. They will get caps etc. and if the team plays well they will be promoted. No-one would be removing any country's rights.

This is not fair. It would be yet another move just to favor the big guns. I think it's unacceptable if we put the more amateuristic countries in a 'pre qualifiers qualifier'. It's bad enough they reduced the Champions League to a worthless tournament, they stole the Cup Winners Cup and made the UEFA Cup a sort of european garbage bin for all the ones not fitting in the CL... Seriously, the country tournaments are the only ones where we still have the pure form of competition where everyone can enter regardless of their strength. It is essential to keep it that way.

[londonirish17]

I would not agree on having a B(minnows)-League. That seems quite unfair.
These players deserve the right to confront bigger sides at competition level. Much of these lads have an 40+hours job and play football out of pure passion. On top of that, some of them spend 15+ hours a week on the training pitch which is quite harsh depending on the job you're doing for a living. The only way forward is confrontation with bigger sides even knowing that you'll probably get stuffed. Games at this level are also important for the financial impact they have (sponsors, tickets,...)
Players representing bigger or strong nations should consider these games as an honour, an honour of playing for your own country. It shouldn't make any difference whether you're playing France or let's say Malta, should it?
The CL has seen its debut following the same principles and as far as the CL is concerned... it is quite borring not to say rubbish. No or nearly no surprise anymore, same teams year in year out, same managers, same bunch of sponsors,...
We could even go further by preventing non-league clubs to play domestic cup ties,...
(Globalisation has even reached soccer...)
It seems quite evident of whom you would put in a B-League. But, how would you define progress? How would you measure improvements? Would they be condoned indefinitely to the B-League? On the other hand would that mean that let's say any team belonging to the A-league would be relegated to the B-League following a couple of bad results which (for some teams) would certainly occur ???

[cavan_fan]

How would you measure improvements? Would they be condoned indefinitely to the B-League? On the other hand would that mean that let's say any team belonging to the A-league would be relegated to the B-League following a couple of bad results which (for some teams) would certainly occur ???

This is quite simple, there would be relegation and promotion. any team that finsihes bottom of their group, even if that is Germany would be at risk of relegation. Andorra could finally achieve something, they would play matches that matter.

[pineapple stu]

Their matches do matter to them though. That's the point. It brings in much-needed revenue to the national FA to improve the standard of football at all levels, the removal of which is surely contrary to UEFA's notions of football for all. They can be big occasions for the country involved - again, read Stamping Grounds. People are fully aware of what they're buying tickets for, so the notion of fans being ripped off is one I don't agree with. And in the end of the day, all you're talking abot doing is cutting two matches over a two-year period - hardly going to make that much difference to pro players?

[holidaysong]

...again, read Stamping Grounds.

I would have to seriously question a persons passion for football if after reading that book someone still wanted to throw the 'minnows' into some kind of pre-qualification.

[pineapple stu]

Why?

Look at them the campaign after - hammered Luxembourg home and away, drew with Portugal and Slovakia. A few years ago, they were losing 11-1 to Macedonia. Progress, no?