Advice on the Laws of the Game

[DmanDmythDledge]

Yes it would,

As the only time this would need to be invoked is when the penalty is the last kick of the half (first or second). The directive is that you follow ALL the rules for a penalty kick during a shootout. A penalty kick is a shootout is in effect, exactly the same as a penalty that is taken as the last kick of the game therefore you follow the same rule.
I don't want to be questioning you but I still feel your wrong. I definitely read or heard somewhere in the past year or so that if an incident like that happens in a penalty shoot out that it doesn't count. Also if the penalty was to be the last kick of the game would that not mean that if it hits off the keeper that it wouldn't count as the last kick of the ball had already taken place?

[The Ref]

I don't want to be questioning you but I still feel your wrong. I definitely read or heard somewhere in the past year or so that if an incident like that happens in a penalty shoot out that it doesn't count. Also if the penalty was to be the last kick of the game would that not mean that if it hits off the keeper that it wouldn't count as the last kick of the ball had already taken place?

The only things that we go on are the Laws of the game and there explanations. I recall, when the law was changed, FIFA's explanation and they used the Brazil example and that that goal would stand under the new wording. I have replicated word for word what is in the Law book states regarding the last kick of the game.

The law also states that the Referee decides when the penalty has been completed and it can't be completed if it his the posts, and/or the goalkeeper before going in. If the ball still has a chance of going in the kick is NOT completed.

I give you an example. The penalty taker hits the post, the ball takes a vicious spin, comes out and then spins into the net. Because the ball still had a chance of going in, the rule state explicitly "a goal is awarded if, before passing between the goalposts and under the crossbar the ball touches either or both of the goalposts and/or the crossbar, and/or the goalkeeper"

The same could be said if the ball hits the post, then the goalkeeper, and then goes in for exactly the same reason.

The rule is clear the goal should stand.

If the referee rules otherwise, he is breach in obligations in upholding the laws of the game

The Ref.

[football fan]

You saw commentators mention this during the world cup; it was introduced to stop teams who had a player sent off from having what was perceived to be an advantage.

Regarding the order kicks should be taken after everyone has taken one, I have contacted a number of colleagues around the country and they all agree that it should be in the same order, however between 10 of us (with a combined experience of over 100 years refereeing - we should really get out more), none of us had experience of it going the full way round.

I am sorry to say Ref but you and your colleagues are wrong. After all players that have finished the game have taken a penalty(in the case of the Drogheda game, 11 players on both sides), they DO NOT have to come back in the same order. In fact the player that takes number 11 could come back and take the very first penalty second time around.

Very basic stuff Ref and one that you and your colleagues should be aware of.

[EddieAnnand]

Heres one that happened in a game I played in recently. Opposing goalkeeper caught the ball. Ran to the edge of the area and took a quick kick from his hands which rebounded off our striker five yards away. Ref immediately gave a free out and booked our striker for blocking down the keeper.

Is this correct?

Does it matter if block is intentional or unintentional?

Does the rule book state that a player has to be a certain distance away before he can block a kick out e.g. what happens if a keeper duffs his kick and it is blocked by a striker 25 yards from goal?

[football fan]

.

My interpretation, and the general consensus around refereeing circles is that this provision provides that the teams must go in the same rotation as the first round.

Just to let you know Ref that this is NOT the general consensus in refereeing circles. Any refs that I know are well aware that you DO NOT have to come back in the same order.

As for it never happening to you, I was always told to expect the unexpected and therefore you should know these things if and when they happen.

The one thing I will say is that it is NOT up to the referee to inform the teams. IF they want to follow the same order, so be it.

[The Ref]

Heres one that happened in a game I played in recently. Opposing goalkeeper caught the ball. Ran to the edge of the area and took a quick kick from his hands which rebounded off our striker five yards away. Ref immediately gave a free out and booked our striker for blocking down the keeper.

Is this correct?

Does it matter if block is intentional or unintentional?

Does the rule book state that a player has to be a certain distance away before he can block a kick out e.g. what happens if a keeper duffs his kick and it is blocked by a striker 25 yards from goal?

In the additional notes to referees it provides that it is an offence for a player to prevent a goalkeeper from releasing the ball from his hands.

Also a player must be penalised for playing in a dangerous manner if he kicks or attempts to kick the ball when the goalkeeper is in the process of releasing it.

In the case you have outlined, neither of thse conditions has been met therfore I can see no reason for a free kick, let alone a caution. It would appear that the referee was over zealous or maybe he saw something that you didn't.

[The Ref]

Just to let you know Ref that this is NOT the general consensus in refereeing circles. Any refs that I know are well aware that you DO NOT have to come back in the same order.

As for it never happening to you, I was always told to expect the unexpected and therefore you should know these things if and when they happen.

The one thing I will say is that it is NOT up to the referee to inform the teams. IF they want to follow the same order, so be it.

As I have said I will bring it back to my branch and I will report it back.

I recall having a conversation a number of years ago about this with Tommy Hand, the late T.C. Doyle (both referee assessors at that time) and Paul Moyer (who no longer referees but who was on the FIFA panel of referee assistants at that time) and we all agreed that it was the same order.

I take it from what you say (and from other posts you have posted) you are a referee as well, if you are I would welcome any input you may have.

Once again I reiterate that I will ask the branch to discuss it, and if, as I suspect, you are a referee I would appriciate it if you asked your branch (we may even be members of the same branch)

[seand]

I have a question I'd like answered, its based on an incident in the league last year.

Team A were awarded a free on the half-way line. As they prepared to take it a forward from Team A elbowed a defender from Team B and was sent off. Play was restarted with a free to Team B from the position of the second offence (the elbowing).

I'd have bet a large sum of money that play should be restarted with a free on the halfway line to ten man Team A as the ball was "out of play" when the second offence, the elbow, took place?

[football fan]

I take it from what you say (and from other posts you have posted) you are a referee as well, if you are I would welcome any input you may have.

Once again I reiterate that I will ask the branch to discuss it, and if, as I suspect, you are a referee I would appriciate it if you asked your branch (we may even be members of the same branch)

Sorry Ref but I am NOT a referee. I can say that my father and brother are referees so you can imagine the conversations in our house. I will ask them again and to go back to their branch with the question. Its from them that I get my information and my healthy respect for all you referees.

[Jock MIB]

hi ref,

is there any changes to the pass back rule this year, reason for question

got bit angry with decision at weekend. where there was a melly in the box four our five players swiping for the ball, but it was our player that took at the swipe at ball the ball spun up bounce around six yard box and our keeper grabbed the ball. the ref then gives free kick for pass back.

lucky nothing came about from it but was he right in his decision?

[micls]

I am sorry to say Ref but you and your colleagues are wrong. After all players that have finished the game have taken a penalty(in the case of the Drogheda game, 11 players on both sides), they DO NOT have to come back in the same order. In fact the player that takes number 11 could come back and take the very first penalty second time around.

Very basic stuff Ref and one that you and your colleagues should be aware of.

On this point the ref, in the game whre it was brought up drogheda vs Start AFAIK Start did not have the same player take th first kick of the second round as the first.

Im not 100% sure on this but read it on the Drogheda website.

[The Ref]

I have a question I'd like answered, its based on an incident in the league last year.

Team A were awarded a free on the half-way line. As they prepared to take it a forward from Team A elbowed a defender from Team B and was sent off. Play was restarted with a free to Team B from the position of the second offence (the elbowing).

I'd have bet a large sum of money that play should be restarted with a free on the halfway line to ten man Team A as the ball was "out of play" when the second offence, the elbow, took place?

From what you say - you should win your bet. As you correctly point out the ball was out of play, therefore the game should have restarted with a free kick to team A.

[The Ref]

hi ref,

is there any changes to the pass back rule this year, reason for question

got bit angry with decision at weekend. where there was a melly in the box four our five players swiping for the ball, but it was our player that took at the swipe at ball the ball spun up bounce around six yard box and our keeper grabbed the ball. the ref then gives free kick for pass back.

lucky nothing came about from it but was he right in his decision?

This is a very tricky question. In order for an indirect free kick to be given, the referee must be of the opinion that the player "deliberately" or "intentionally" played the ball to the goalkeeper. In a mêlée in the box, it can be sometime difficult for the referee to judge what is intent and what is not.

Unfortunately referees cannot read players minds (if we could life would be so much easier) therefore you have to judge each case on its merits, and in these instances referees will always get something’s wrong.

In direct answer to your question - no the rule hasen't changed.

Its funny you mention this, because this happened to a colleague of mne this weekend - where was the match?

[Jock MIB]

in a match in croom limerick

[Jock MIB]

i have to apologise to the ref next time i see him i did a bit of a steve staunton after that, i know they can make mistakes, i just need to learn to control my mouth some times

[The Ref]

i have to apologise to the ref next time i see him i did a bit of a steve staunton after that, i know they can make mistakes, i just need to learn to control my mouth some times

These things happen, appologise if you wish, if he has any grace he will accept it in the way it is meant. I know, I appriciate it when players and managers shake my hand at the end of the game - at that stage its all over and theres nothing more that can be done. I have never fallen out with anyone over a football match and hopefully never will.

[Jock MIB]

i know just found out he is ref for our next match. so hopefully he will accept olive branch .

talk later ref

[The Ref]

Sorry Ref but I am NOT a referee. I can say that my father and brother are referees so you can imagine the conversations in our house. I will ask them again and to go back to their branch with the question. Its from them that I get my information and my healthy respect for all you referees.

If your father and/or brother can bring it at branch level that would be great, I was talking to one of my leagues assessors today and he agreed with my interpretation (he doesn’t know I do this as a as a bit of fun), but would look for further clarification. He also agreed to discuss it again at branch level, I think this question may have raised a hornets nest (on this forum anyway) and it would be nice to put it to bed. All I hope is that whatever comes out of it is that there is consistency right across the board.

[seand]

From what you say - you should win your bet. As you correctly point out the ball was out of play, therefore the game should have restarted with a free kick to team A.

Thanks, The Ref. So its official, theres an anti-Dundalk refereeing conspiracy! Not the only case last season of referees in the eircom League not knowing the rules. One of them allowed a free for offside to be taken 2 yards inside the defending teams half.

[seand]

One more for The Ref, if you don't mind! A strange one... playing in Leinster League a couple of years ago, somebody played a backpass to our keeper, who bent down to pick it up. The ref promptly whistled for a free, but did it marginally before the ball reached the keeper, so the keeper stopped playing, stood up and didnt actually handle the ball. A forward ran in and played the ball into the empty net, and the ref let the goal stand (though the defence and keeper had stopped playing at the whistle.) What's the rule for a refree 'accidentally' whistling?!! I'd have thought this was a drop-ball, surely we shouldnt have played on?

[The Ref]

One more for The Ref, if you don't mind! A strange one... playing in Leinster League a couple of years ago, somebody played a backpass to our keeper, who bent down to pick it up. The ref promptly whistled for a free, but did it marginally before the ball reached the keeper, so the keeper stopped playing, stood up and didnt actually handle the ball. A forward ran in and played the ball into the empty net, and the ref let the goal stand (though the defence and keeper had stopped playing at the whistle.) What's the rule for a refree 'accidentally' whistling?!! I'd have thought this was a drop-ball, surely we shouldnt have played on?

When you say it is strange, you certainly meant it. The laws of the game only cover what should happen during a game, I have racked my brains and can't think where it could be covered by the laws except for,

Law 8 the start/restart of play "A dropped ball is a way of restarting the match after a temporary stoppage that becomes necessary, while the ball is in play, for any reason not mentioned elsewhere in the Laws of the Game."

By whistling too soon, in my opinion, the referee has in effect stopped play. As there has been no offence committed, and no free kick to either team, it becomes a temporary stoppage, thus a drop ball.

From the facts as you told me, a bit of common sense was needed here and a drop ball would have been the fairest solution. I do believe (again from the facts above) a goal should not have been awarded.

This is just my opinion, as the rules don't specifically cover this situation, others may want to put their ideas forward.

The Ref

[seand]

Thanks The Ref. It's a beauty alright! I'd be of the same opinion, it was "a temporary stoppage ... while the ball is in play, for any reason not mentioned elsewhere in the Laws of the Game." Also there's golden rule of not playing after the whistle. As a ref cannot play advantage after whistling for a foul, surely he can't play advantage after accidentally whistling for a foul!

I suppose an alternative opinion might be that it would be an indirect free to the attacking team for the keeper "attempting" to handle a back-pass?? After all you don't have to make contact to commit a foul, so perhaps the keeper committed a foul in attempting to pick up the back-pass.

[the 12 th man]

By whistling too soon, in my opinion, the referee has in effect stopped play. As there has been no offence committed, and no free kick to either team, it becomes a temporary stoppage, thus a drop ball.


The Ref

That would be by far the farest and most logical solution imo.

[The Ref]

I suppose an alternative opinion might be that it would be an indirect free to the attacking team for the keeper "attempting" to handle a back-pass?? After all you don't have to make contact to commit a foul, so perhaps the keeper committed a foul in attempting to pick up the back-pass.

The keeper only commits an offence when he actually "touches the ball with his hand" (Law 12 refers), therefore the intent dosen't matter

no touch - no free

The Ref

[Sheridan]

Very illuminating thread, you're now my favourite ref by default.

How about this one. It's been a long time (ten years or more) since I scrutinized the laws of the game, so this may have been amended in the meantime. However, I distinctly (okay, hazily) remember reading something to the effect that the game could be truncated to fewer than 45 minutes each way with the consent of both captains.

If this remains operative, the potential for abuse is obvious. Teams could shorten the duration of a game to produce a mutually beneficial result, or alleviate unwanted fixture congestion.

Am I totally off the wall here?

[The Ref]

Very illuminating thread, you're now my favourite ref by default.

How about this one. It's been a long time (ten years or more) since I scrutinized the laws of the game, so this may have been amended in the meantime. However, I distinctly (okay, hazily) remember reading something to the effect that the game could be truncated to fewer than 45 minutes each way with the consent of both captains.

If this remains operative, the potential for abuse is obvious. Teams could shorten the duration of a game to produce a mutually beneficial result, or alleviate unwanted fixture congestion.

Am I totally off the wall here?

Your right, but you forgot one vital piece of information, it must be agreed between the two teams (I'm not going to split hairs with the captains - same difference) and the referee and it must be done prior to the game starting.

Also the competition rules must not have a proviso in them that the game cannot be shortened

If two teams want to play out a mutually agreeable result, this can be done (without the referees knowledge) over any period a half, be it 45mis 40 mins etc.

I personally don't know any referee who would allow a game to be shortened for a reason that wasn't bona fide e.g. light not to hold. IMO If a referee did shorten a game, to aliviate fixture congestion, fix a result or any other reason that is not genuine then he is only cheating and has no place in the game. Thankfully, I don't know of any such referees.

[W.R.F.C]

Ref during our match yesterday with hill celtic, frank o,neill disallowed a goal cause he said u need more than 2 on the line. A hill celtic player and goalkeeper were on the line when our forward tapped in a perfectly good goal, what was that clown on about when he didnt award it

[Hoops 1967]

I was at a game yesterday. One team scored and as the players were heading back towards there half of the field, the other team centered off and had a shot at goal. The ref said that if it had gone in he would have allowed it, even though there were 3 or 4 players from the team who scored still in the wrong half of the pitch as the ball was centered off. Was the ref correct?? or should everyone be in the right side of the pitch when the ball is centered off.

[Goals4fun]

hey ref what about this one,
a defender plays the ball back to the keeper ( a true backpass 100%). the keeper goes to kick the ball but it bounces over his leg (does not touch it). The ball is definately going into the goal and the keeper dives and catches it. what is the decision?

[Goals4fun]

and another,
a player takes a throw to a team mate. He heads this directly backwards (on purpose) for the keeper to pick up. The keeper comes and picks the ball up (inside the box)
what is the decision?

[The Ref]

and another,
a player takes a throw to a team mate. He heads this directly backwards (on purpose) for the keeper to pick up. The keeper comes and picks the ball up (inside the box)
what is the decision?

This is a tricky one, Decision 3 of Law 12 of the International FA Board who decide the laws of the game state:

Subject to the terms of Law 12, a player may pass the ball to his own goalkeeper using his head or chest or knee, etc. If, however, in the opinion of the referee, a player uses a deliberate trick while the ball is in play in order to circumvent the Law, the player is guilty of unsporting behaviour. He is cautioned, shown the yellow card and an indirect free kick is awarded to the opposing team from the place where the infringement occurred.

A player using a deliberate trick to circumvent the Law while he is taking a free kick is cautioned for unsporting behaviour and shown the yellow card. The free kick is retaken.

In such circumstances, it is irrelevant whether the goalkeeper subsequently
touches the ball with his hands or not. The offence is committed
by the player in attempting to circumvent both the letter and
the spirit of Law 12.

Now it dosen't mention a throw in, only tricks and free kick, therefore I would be of the opinion that no offence has occured.

I could see how a referee could take the view that it was a deliberate trick and give an indirect free kick and caution the player, although as I said I wouldn't be of that opinion.

[The Ref]

hey ref what about this one,
a defender plays the ball back to the keeper ( a true backpass 100%). the keeper goes to kick the ball but it bounces over his leg (does not touch it). The ball is definately going into the goal and the keeper dives and catches it. what is the decision?

This actually happened in a game I did a couple of years ago. My view then was "no free kick" as the goal keeper had made a genuine attempt to play the ball with his foot i.e. kick it, a massive bobble took the ball away from him and the keeper ran back and caught the ball on the line just before the centre forward finished it.

After the game a referee assessor came over to me and told me that;

a) I should have awarded an indirect free kick to the attacking team because the law states an indirect free kick is awarded to the opposing team if a goalkeeper, inside his own penalty area touches the ball with his hands after it has been deliberately kicked to him by a team-mate

b) Sent the goalkeeper off because he denied an obvious goalscoring opportunity to an opponent moving towards the player’s goal by an offence punishable by a free kick or a penalty kick

These are the rules, but it is not necessarily what I would do if an assessor was NOT present;)

[The Ref]

I was at a game yesterday. One team scored and as the players were heading back towards there half of the field, the other team centered off and had a shot at goal. The ref said that if it had gone in he would have allowed it, even though there were 3 or 4 players from the team who scored still in the wrong half of the pitch as the ball was centered off. Was the ref correct?? or should everyone be in the right side of the pitch when the ball is centered off.

For a kick/centre/tip off (different areas call it different things) all players must be their own half of the field, as this was not the case the kick off should have been retaken. (Law 8 refers)

[The Ref]

Ref during our match yesterday with hill celtic, frank o,neill disallowed a goal cause he said u need more than 2 on the line. A hill celtic player and goalkeeper were on the line when our forward tapped in a perfectly good goal, what was that clown on about when he didnt award it

May I say, I would appreciate if we didn't name the referee in question in future (I could be the referee in question, not here though). I have no problem with clubs being named, but not the referees.

Now I presume that the referee blew for offside, it is important to remember that a player is offside when "the ball" is played/passed to the player in that position. You only state that the keeper and player where on the line when the goal was scored, you don't say anything about the lead up to the goal.

Was it that your centre forward was offside when the ball was passed to him? I don't know, I just guessing from the information you provided.

If you outline the situation in more detail, maybe I can give a more definitive answer.

[Hoops 1967]

see next post

[Hoops 1967]

This actually happened in a game I did a couple of years ago. My view then was "no free kick" as the goal keeper had made a genuine attempt to play the ball with his foot i.e. kick it, a massive bobble took the ball away from him and the keeper ran back and caught the ball on the line just before the centre forward finished it.

After the game a referee assessor came over to me and told me that;

a) I should have awarded an indirect free kick to the attacking team because the law states an indirect free kick is awarded to the opposing team if a goalkeeper, inside his own penalty area touches the ball with his hands after it has been deliberately kicked to him by a team-mate

b) Sent the goalkeeper off because he denied an obvious goalscoring opportunity to an opponent moving towards the player’s goal by an offence punishable by a free kick or a penalty kick

These are the rules, but it is not necessarily what I would do if an assessor was NOT present;)



Thanks for your reply to my previous question.

From reading your reply to another question, you seem to imply that you would not follow the rule for backpasses if no referee assessor was present. I find this interesting, on one hand you state the rule clearly yet on the other hand you say you would not follow that rule???
I thought refs were supposed to enforce the rules of the game, not do as they please.

[Old keeper]

Thanks for your reply to my previous question.

From reading your reply to another question, you seem to imply that you would not follow the rule for backpasses if no referee assessor was present. I find this interesting, on one hand you state the rule clearly yet on the other hand you say you would not follow that rule???
I thought refs were supposed to enforce the rules of the game, not do as they please.

Thars a bit harsh Hoops

I think the ref was implying commonsense! it would be silly to penalise a keeper for a natural reaction, any keeper would try to prevent a goal being scored after ha howler of a miss. If the keeper was trying to kick the ball therefore he was applying the rules of the game but when the gods took a hand surely the "backpass" took a different turn. I am speaking as a poor harrassed keeper. I would also have rushed back to prevent the goal and would probably have expected to conceed an indirect free kick but would go ballistic if I was shown a red card.

[seand]

One more for The Ref! These days its common practice for players to put the ball out of play for injuries etc. I was wondering if a ref would be within his rights to book a player/award a free if, for example, Team A took advantage of Team B putting the ball out of play to allow attention to an injured member of Team A.

ok, TWO more questions for the The Ref!! I had this experience playing in the Phoenix Park last season... a defender intercepted a pass and knocked it back towards the keeper. It was unclear, and a matter of opinion, whether it was a back pass or not. The keeper had a little time and asked the ref if he could pick it up. Ref refused to answer! I'm sure he's under no obligation to answer, but it seemed at the time that he was trying to catch the keeper out! Would you advise the keeper one way or the other in that situation? (assuming he has enough time to get an answer and react accordingly)

[Goals4fun]

Thars a bit harsh Hoops

I think the ref was implying commonsense! it would be silly to penalise a keeper for a natural reaction, any keeper would try to prevent a goal being scored after ha howler of a miss. If the keeper was trying to kick the ball therefore he was applying the rules of the game but when the gods took a hand surely the "backpass" took a different turn. I am speaking as a poor harrassed keeper. I would also have rushed back to prevent the goal and would probably have expected to conceed an indirect free kick but would go ballistic if I was shown a red card.

but think how the other team would feel. they were deliberatly cheated of a goal. that is why the ref has to be down the middle and play to the letter of the law. Unfortunately commonsense is why ref's do different thing and that is what causes confusion.

[Hoops 1967]

Thars a bit harsh Hoops

I think the ref was implying commonsense! it would be silly to penalise a keeper for a natural reaction, any keeper would try to prevent a goal being scored after ha howler of a miss. If the keeper was trying to kick the ball therefore he was applying the rules of the game but when the gods took a hand surely the "backpass" took a different turn. I am speaking as a poor harrassed keeper. I would also have rushed back to prevent the goal and would probably have expected to conceed an indirect free kick but would go ballistic if I was shown a red card.

True Old Keeper a red card would have been harsh but it was defo a free kick.
How many refs are there in the LDMC and are the refs graded, as in who gets to ref premier games and who gets to ref 4B games?

[The Ref]

True Old Keeper a red card would have been harsh but it was defo a free kick.

How many refs are there in the LDMC and are the refs graded, as in who gets to ref premier games and who gets to ref 4B games?

Lively debate in my absence.

A good referee uses his common sense when he assesses each situation, I deal with each case on its merits. I explained the rule as it should be (the theoretical answer), but never said what I would do in such an example.

Whether it was a free kick of not, if I'm honest, would depend on the situation. I can say I would not be in favour of punishing the keeper with a red card.

[The Ref]

but think how the other team would feel. they were deliberatly cheated of a goal. that is why the ref has to be down the middle and play to the letter of the law. Unfortunately commonsense is why ref's do different thing and that is what causes confusion.

If a referee didn't use common sense, a game would never flow, it would be stop-start, and each half would last over an hour.

[The Ref]

One more for The Ref! These days its common practice for players to put the ball out of play for injuries etc. I was wondering if a ref would be within his rights to book a player/award a free if, for example, Team A took advantage of Team B putting the ball out of play to allow attention to an injured member of Team A.

ok, TWO more questions for the The Ref!! I had this experience playing in the Phoenix Park last season... a defender intercepted a pass and knocked it back towards the keeper. It was unclear, and a matter of opinion, whether it was a back pass or not. The keeper had a little time and asked the ref if he could pick it up. Ref refused to answer! I'm sure he's under no obligation to answer, but it seemed at the time that he was trying to catch the keeper out! Would you advise the keeper one way or the other in that situation? (assuming he has enough time to get an answer and react accordingly)

I will answer this question is its two parts

a) A question similar to this actually started this thread so this is the answer I gave then

There is no rule. If a player kicks the ball out of play, the opposition are under no obligation to return the ball to them, also if the referee stops the game in order for a player to receive treatment and no foul has occured, a drop ball restarts the game neither team is obligated to return the ball. (For a drop ball) If a player states to the referee that he is returning the ball to the oppisition and the drop ball becomes uncontested and that player "changes his mind" and dosen't pass the ball back, there is nothing the referee can do (offically), in practice, most referees will stop the game and re-drop the ball which will then become fiercly contested.

b) The referee is under no obligation to tell the keeper if he can pick the ball up or not.

If a keeper asks me, I will tell him "yes" or "no". Also if the attacking team shouts as the ball is going to the keeper "close him down he can't pick it up", if in my opinion he can I will retort "yes he can" or "keeper you can pick that"

I hope this answers your questions.

The Ref

[seand]

Thanks Ref, really appreciate you taking the time to comment on these things.

Regarding drop balls, not giving the ball back etc, Law 12 states "A player is cautioned...if he... 1. is guilty of unsporting behaviour". Could a ref interpret failure to return a ball as "unsporting behaviour"? I'd have thought it was.


With reference to another discussion in this thread, I notice in Law 12,
Sending-Off Offences
A player..is sent off and shown the red card if...
4. denies the opposing team a goal or an obvious goalscoring opportunity by deliberately handling the ball (this does not apply to a goalkeeper within his own penalty area)

This suggests to me that a keeper shouldn't be sent off even for deliberately handling a backpass that is going in

[football fan]

After the game a referee assessor came over to me and told me that;

a) I should have awarded an indirect free kick to the attacking team because the law states an indirect free kick is awarded to the opposing team if a goalkeeper, inside his own penalty area touches the ball with his hands after it has been deliberately kicked to him by a team-mate

b) Sent the goalkeeper off because he denied an obvious goalscoring opportunity to an opponent moving towards the player’s goal by an offence punishable by a free kick or a penalty kick

These are the rules, but it is not necessarily what I would do if an assessor was NOT present;)

Just to point out the following:

1. You award an indirect free kick for handling a back pass. You do not award nothing because he attempted to play the ball with his foot.

2. You do not send the goalkeeper off. You cannot award a penalty against the goalkeeper for handling the ball INSIDE the area. The offence is handling a back pass.

3. You should never referee a match to suit an assessor. This gives rise to inconsistency and this is what annoys managerand players and fans.

To the Ref and your assessor, WE NEED TO TALK!

[The Ref]

Just to point out the following:

1. You award an indirect free kick for handling a back pass. You do not award nothing because he attempted to play the ball with his foot.

2. You do not send the goalkeeper off. You cannot award a penalty against the goalkeeper for handling the ball INSIDE the area. The offence is handling a back pass.

3. You should never referee a match to suit an assessor. This gives rise to inconsistency and this is what annoys managerand players and fans.

To the Ref and your assessor, WE NEED TO TALK!

Football fan,

Maybe I didn't explain myself correctly, I was trying to outline what happened and that I had not given an indirect free kick at the time. I then outlined what the assessor told me and that was the true position.

The second point, as I stated the keeper caught the ball on the line before a centre forward finished it. Law 12 states " A player is sent off and shown the red card if he denies an obvious goal scoring opportunity to an opponent moving towards the player’s goal by an offence punishable by a free kick or a penalty kick"

The goalkeeper has:
1. Denied a obvious goal scoring opportunity;
2. The opponent was moving toward the goalkeepers’ goal;
3. The offence was punished by a free kick, albeit an indirect free kick.

Law 12 does not state that the free kick must be direct or indirect - in the absence of guidance it can be either.

But if an assessor was not present I don't think I would give a red card.

You say you should never referee a game to suit an assessor, sadly when an assessor is present common sense and pragmatism go out the window, if you use either of these commodities when an assessor is present, well lets face it, you will be refereeing Division 3 Saturday or Division 3A Sunday for the rest of the season. Survival of the fittest.:ball:

[seand]

You say you should never referee a game to suit an assessor, sadly when an assessor is present common sense and pragmatism go out the window, if you use either of these commodities when an assessor is present, well lets face it, you will be refereeing Division 3 Saturday or Division 3A Sunday for the rest of the season. Survival of the fittest.:ball:

Oi, bitta respect for Division 3 Saturday! I gave some of my best years to Division 3 Saturday!

[Old keeper]

Hers a bad one for you

Playing a game this morning. one of our players was in a challenge with the opposition and as he was geting up to walk away the opponent headbutted him he fell to the ground and needed 4 stitches after the game. the ref said he did not see the incident but gave the offending player a yellow card? when asked afterwards he said he cautioned the player for messing

Is there any guideline for this type of incident?

[The Ref]

Hers a bad one for you

Playing a game this morning. one of our players was in a challenge with the opposition and as he was geting up to walk away the opponent headbutted him he fell to the ground and needed 4 stitches after the game. the ref said he did not see the incident but gave the offending player a yellow card? when asked afterwards he said he cautioned the player for messing

Is there any guideline for this type of incident?

The age old saying is "you can't give what you can't see", if the referee (or his team in a match with more than one official) didn't see the incident then he can't punish the offender.

As for the yellow card, "messing" is not one of the seven offences for giving a yellow card, if your league requires reports for yellow cards (under FAI rules, I seem to remember that 5 yellow cards = 1 match suspension), it would be interesting to see what offence the referee reports it under.

I will say, something may have happened or was said that referee saw/heard that warrented a yellow card but from what you have said - no card should have been shown.

[Soccer Lover]

Hers a bad one for you

Playing a game this morning. one of our players was in a challenge with the opposition and as he was geting up to walk away the opponent headbutted him he fell to the ground and needed 4 stitches after the game. the ref said he did not see the incident but gave the offending player a yellow card? when asked afterwards he said he cautioned the player for messing

Is there any guideline for this type of incident?

Isnt that Shelbourne team the guts of the Distillery team from last year

It dosen't surprise me that one of there player would stoop to headbutting a player, they are also the masters of spitting at you as well off the ball.

Its a pity you dont suspend the lot of them with val ward as well