Summer Soccer Poll [Archive] - Page 3

Peadar

31/07/2006, 2:45 PM

I wonder how much of that can be directly attributed to summer football and not to just a change in attitude on the clubs' behalf?

I was thinking about this over the weekend and I can't remember a season where the top 4 teams in the league have been our representatives in Europe. That is surely a contributing factor to our success this term.

Having said that, I still think that the league has a better chance of growing in its current form.

pete

31/07/2006, 3:57 PM

Going into European games at full force against teams in a pre-season type mentality would be what I would attribute it to more than full time football which has obviously helped.

Because eL sides play in the northern european section its rare that our opponents have a winter season so has been no real advantage for the Uefa cup.

In the CL qualifiers the summer season has sometimes been an advantage like this year.

Shelsman

31/07/2006, 4:47 PM

Not encouraged by summer football? You basically said you prefer to go to the beach or have a BBQ than go to a game, thats your choice fair enough. But apart from putting sand in the stands to make castles with and giving out free burgers what do you think is the best way of "persuading the floating supporter that a night at the football is the best way to spend your Fridays during the summer months"? Quality of football perhaps?

Yup, all those free burgers would definitely make him

A FLOATING FAN !!!!

:D :p

Shelsman

31/07/2006, 4:51 PM

Slash/ED

31/07/2006, 5:03 PM

How will switching to winter football improve anything in the league? Do you really think crowds will mysterously rise dramatically because we get to play in sh*t weather conditions for a few months of the year?

There are those who argue that summer football hasn't improved attendences, how does this prove we need to switch back? Crowds are NOT related to when we play our football and that is NOT how we will get them up. If we continue to play in sub standard stadiums we will continue to get sub standard crowds december or july.

As for Dublin City, anyone who thinks they're faith was remotely related to a few months of our season being in warm weather is delusional.

Summer football has helped in other regards and therefore is more attractive and better than winter football. It wasn't a miracle cure, it was a slight help however. And a slight improvement, no matter how slight, is better than none...So why on earth would we go back? It's not going to solve anything. If you think crowds will suddenly jump because we're playing in the freezing rain on mud pitches then you're also delusional.

Student Mullet

31/07/2006, 5:12 PM

It has yet to be proven that there's any correlation between those two.:rolleyes:

Let's face it spanner head, there will be very few people who can prove this either way. We can at best deduct and make educated guesses, OR ( God Help us ) OFFER OUR OPINION!!!You can prove a correlation easily enough. European results and the leagues ranking have improved recently but league attendances have not. There has therefore been no correlation.

passerrby

31/07/2006, 6:14 PM

there are a small number (3 maybe 4)of clubs trying to force a debate at council level on this issue,J D wants summer football Most clubs want summer football so this will not get of the ground ,incidently I agree with him on this

pineapple stu

31/07/2006, 6:31 PM

How will switching to winter football improve anything in the league? Do you really think crowds will mysterously rise dramatically because we get to play in sh*t weather conditions for a few months of the year?

There are those who argue that summer football hasn't improved attendences, how does this prove we need to switch back?
If crowds have dropped 20% since summer soccer - which best figures show they have - then you would imagine, ceteris paribus, that the switch has had something to do with that, and that reversing the switch would therefore reverse some of the impact on attendances.

Crowds are NOT related to when we play our football and that is NOT how we will get them up.
Curiously, that's one of the main points the summer soccer advocates sold the idea on. Now they're saying it's irrelevant?

As for Dublin City, anyone who thinks they're faith was remotely related to a few months of our season being in warm weather is delusional.
In fairness, I don't think anyone disagrees with this.

EireBadBoy

01/08/2006, 1:32 AM

Summer.

NY Hoop

01/08/2006, 11:26 AM

The main reason for the switch to summer was to improve the European results. Guess what? It's worked.

Going back to winter to suit a couple of clubs and nuuters like keely would be the beginning of the end.

AGAIN do we want to go back to getting hammered in Europe?

KOH

Jerry The Saint

01/08/2006, 12:43 PM

The main reason for the switch to summer was to improve the European results. Guess what? It's worked.

That was one of the reasons, yes. Another of the main reasons was to "avoid competing with the (English) Premiership", boosting attendances and media coverage. Guess what? It hasn't worked. In fact the evidence suggests it's had a negative impact.

AGAIN do we want to go back to getting hammered in Europe?

Results have improved but Irish clubs 'getting hammered in Europe' was already finished before summer soccer was introduced (with the exception of Zimbru which I'll mention to save anyone else having to:( ) largely due to proper full-time squads and much improved coaching and preparation from our participants.

NY Hoop

01/08/2006, 12:55 PM

That was one of the reasons, yes. Another of the main reasons was to "avoid competing with the (English) Premiership", boosting attendances and media coverage. Guess what? It hasn't worked. In fact the evidence suggests it's had a negative impact.

Results have improved but Irish clubs 'getting hammered in Europe' was already finished before summer soccer was introduced (with the exception of Zimbru which I'll mention to save anyone else having to:( ) largely due to proper full-time squads and much improved coaching and preparation from our participants.

Boez getting hammered by Ferencvaros, Cork getting by a Latvian side and Dundalk getting hammered home and away by a Croatian side would suggest otherwise.

If we get better results in Europe at the expense of some crowds going down temporarily then most forward thinking fans would take that.

When the facilities get better and the results in Europe continue then the crowds will surpass any winter season.

BTW what is with your avator?

KOH

pineapple stu

01/08/2006, 1:03 PM

Boez getting hammered by Ferencvaros, Cork getting by a Latvian side and Dundalk getting hammered home and away by a Croatian side would suggest otherwise.
I think European results started to improve around 2000/01. That was the year UCD drew home and away against Kyustendil, Shels beat Sloga before drawing in Norway and Bohs beat Aberdeen before winning in Germany. That was also about when full-time teams started coming in. I think the Bohs game in Aberdeen was mentioned as the first time Bohs (or possibly any LoI side) had fielded an all full-time XI. That was the first time since 1994/95 an Irish team had made it through a round in Europe - and even then, it was Sligo scraping past a Maltese team - and the first time in some 20 years that we'd won away from home.

The following year, Bohs hammered Maardu and game Helsingborgs a close game. Longford put in a very creditable performance against Lovech and were a couple of minutes away from matching our feat of draws home and away.

2002/03 was an unmitigated disaster, but Dundalk were a First Division side and Shels was a one-off.

In 2003, we started into summer soccer properly - and we won one game and lost seven. Following on from that, we've done very well every year.

Conclusion? Summer football has helped European results, but I think full-time teams, proper preparation and confidence have helped just as much, if not more.

NY Hoop

01/08/2006, 1:13 PM

I think European results started to improve around 2000/01. That was the year UCD drew home and away against Kyustendil, Shels beat Sloga before drawing in Norway and Bohs beat Aberdeen before winning in Germany. That was also about when full-time teams started coming in. I think the Bohs game in Aberdeen was mentioned as the first time Bohs (or possibly any LoI side) had fielded an all full-time XI. That was the first time since 1994/95 an Irish team had made it through a round in Europe - and even then, it was Sligo scraping past a Maltese team - and the first time in some 20 years that we'd won away from home.

The following year, Bohs hammered Maardu and game Helsingborgs a close game. Longford put in a very creditable performance against Lovech and were a couple of minutes away from matching our feat of draws home and away.

2002/03 was an unmitigated disaster, but Dundalk were a First Division side and Shels was a one-off.

In 2003, we started into summer soccer properly - and we won one game and lost seven. Following on from that, we've done very well every year.

Conclusion? Summer football has helped European results, but I think full-time teams, proper preparation and confidence have helped just as much, if not more.

In 2003 we won 2 games in europe. The best preparation is games as we werent full time but we were on a winning streak at that time. You can be full time but if you're playing in winter you will suffer in Europe because you wont have played competitive games.

KOH

Poor Student

01/08/2006, 1:18 PM

:rolleyes:

Let's face it spanner head

What the hell is your problem? Aren't you supposed to be a mod?:confused:

Dodge

01/08/2006, 1:37 PM

You can be full time but if you're playing in winter you will suffer in Europe because you wont have played competitive games.

And if You're part time you'll suffer from not having all your best players available or only training twice a week together or any other number of factors. The point is that NOBODY can categorically say that Summer football has or hasn't worked. European results are better not but IMO full time (and particularly higher wages attracting better players) has helped this more. Crowds are down but In the opinion of some, thats only at cubs who are struggling on the pitch.

Somethings are clear, it was introduced with no research and no research has been done to see if its had any effect.

pineapple stu

01/08/2006, 2:05 PM

In 2003 we won 2 games in europe.
Is that counting InterToto? Didn't have those results to hand (apart from ourselves obviously). Bohs beat Borisov 3-0 and lost 1-0 before losing 1-0 and 4-0 to Rosenborg; Shels lost 3-2 and 1-0 to Olimpija and Derry lost 2-1 and 3-0 to APOEL.

Shelsman

01/08/2006, 4:46 PM

What the hell is your problem? Aren't you supposed to be a mod?:confused:

Sorry about that, I just got a bit worked up and all.....

Jerry The Saint

01/08/2006, 5:16 PM

BTW what is with your avator?

:D It's a cautionary example for people with more money than sense (especially people like Rocky Seery who didn't even have a lot of money to begin with). If everyone forgets about CHF some idiot will be doomed to repeat their mistakes! :eek:

Slash/ED

01/08/2006, 5:36 PM

If crowds have dropped 20% since summer soccer - which best figures show they have - then you would imagine, ceteris paribus, that the switch has had something to do with that, and that reversing the switch would therefore reverse some of the impact on attendances.

Where are you getting this 20% figure from? It is widely accepted crowd figures were greatlyu exaggerated up until a couple of seasons ago and were always, and are stil alwas, at best estimates. While latley they're probably alot more realistic certainly on this website it was sheer fantasy a few years ago. Comparing attendences is difficult to impossible.

And even if it was true, there are more than likely other factors at play anyway. Perhaps the increase in TV games has had an adverse effect on crowds (Afterall, aren't you saying crowds are down on last season and the season before, both summer seasons).

I find it very, VERY difficult to believe a move to winter football will actively increase crowds. I see no logic behind this whatsoever.

Curiously, that's one of the main points the summer soccer advocates sold the idea on. Now they're saying it's irrelevant?

Not irrelevent, it didn't have the effect we hoped but that doesn't mean we should switch back. Overall, summer football has improved in many regards and didn't boost crowds like we hoped. That is no reason to switch back, that makes no sense at all.

I've seen some good arguments stating that summer football wasn't the miracle cure it was built up to me, but nobody at all has put a decent argument forward why a move back to winter football will actively improve the league from its current position.

pineapple stu

01/08/2006, 6:12 PM

Where are you getting this 20% figure from? It is widely accepted crowd figures were greatlyu exaggerated up until a couple of seasons ago and were always, and are stil alwas, at best estimates. While latley they're probably alot more realistic certainly on this website it was sheer fantasy a few years ago. Comparing attendences is difficult to impossible.
The attendances thread here shows a 22% drop from last year alone. I accept - and always have done - that this isn't 100% accurate, but it's not bad and if it's admissible in the Genesis Report, it's certainly admissible here. Across the board, clubs do seem to be reporting large drop offs in crowds as well.

I find it very, VERY difficult to believe a move to winter football will actively increase crowds. I see no logic behind this whatsoever.
The logic is quite clear. Summer football seems to have precipitated a 20-25% drop off in crowds - possibly due in part to holidays, summer camps, family occasions, etc. - and there is no reason why the converse can't be true. Nobody's saying it will work that way (or if they are, they're wrong). Nobody's calling for an immediate switch back to winter football. What they are doing is highlighting issues which should be examined if proper research were to be done into the benefits of both seasons. And they're also noting that it's next to impossible to attribute how much responsibility summer soccer deserves in the recent benefits (European results mainly).

And for what it's worth, I voted winter as that's my personal preference for games, which is the question heading the poll. Games just seem more atmospheric in the dark under floodlights. Don't ask why.

Student Mullet

01/08/2006, 7:02 PM

The attendances thread here shows a 22% drop from last year alone.

...

The logic is quite clear. Summer football seems to have precipitated a 20-25% drop off in crowds - possibly due in part to holidays, summer camps, family occasions, etc. - and there is no reason why the converse can't be true. The logic is fuzzy at best and based on an abuse of the word 'precipitated'. Summer soccer came in and then 2 years later crowds dropped, therefore summer soccer leads to dropping crowds?

pete

01/08/2006, 7:16 PM

No one can say what the crowds were in the winter or the summer seasons. The figures gathered on foot.ie are mostly estimates & fairly easy to be 20% out in crowd of 1000.

Like it or not we now have a summer season - for the most part any success from it has been a fluke - unless there is a valid & proven reason to more to the winter then should stay with the summer.

pineapple stu

01/08/2006, 7:25 PM

It's acceptable logic. Crowds were down as well the previous season, albeit only by a couple of percent. We have no particularly reliable figures for before; the thread here shows a 25% drop from 2003 to 2004. This when the league is doing better in Europe than before and getting more exposure than before, and so when you would expect crowds to be at least a bit up.

Precipitated is probably the wrong word - preceded might be better.

It's quite possible that other attractions like the GAA, holidays etc, have caused attendances to drop (as they undeniably have done this year). The World Cup hasn't helped either, though I don't think that should be held against summer soccer really. If this is the case, then switching back to winter would go some way to reversing this. Obvioulsy it's possible the drop was going to happen anyway. I'm not suggesting we should change and see what happens; I'm merely suggesting that, if a change were to be proposed in the future, proper research should be done as to which season would be better for crowds. In the meantime, I'm happy it is a criticism of summer football that it has, to some extent, hit attendances.

pineapple stu

01/08/2006, 7:25 PM

The figures gathered on foot.ie are mostly estimates & fairly easy to be 20% out in crowd of 1000.
Fairly easy on a one-off guesstimate. Over 200 attendances, the margin of error should reduce.

Paddyfield

01/08/2006, 9:19 PM

Winter

(I would probably change my mind if Galway United qualified for Europe)

;)

.

Rovers1

01/08/2006, 9:29 PM

winter

Student Mullet

01/08/2006, 10:46 PM

Precipitated is probably the wrong word - preceded might be better.Your switching from a causality to a correlation there which is quite a big step down.

the thread here shows a 25% drop from 2003 to 2004. Both of which were summer seasons. Your numbers don't show a drop between winter and summer, they show a drop from one summer season to another.

pete

02/08/2006, 10:48 AM

Fairly easy on a one-off guesstimate. Over 200 attendances, the margin of error should reduce.

I think though over time people have been more realistic with their estimates. Certainly at the cross was always hard to estimate crowds in the terraced shed but easier when all seated.

ColinR

02/08/2006, 11:03 AM

if it's admissible in the Genesis Report, it's certainly admissible here.

but its use in genesis was roundly ridiculed on foot.ie due to the estimation of most of the figures (which certainly for the first couple of years were grossly over-estimated). so surely any attempt to use the same figures as an argument for/against summer soccer should similarly be dismissed.

unfortunately, we have no acurate data to confirm beliefs either way.

its still my opinion that there are far greater deciding factors on crowds than simply the season - a club's own performance, the lack of the rovers away fans, the closing of the shed in cork, the constant moving of fixtures etc etc all impact more imo

LFC in Exile

02/08/2006, 11:09 AM

The difficulty arises when people say that the move to summer football did not solve all our problems so we should revert back. Nobody suggested that the switch would solve every eL problem on its own. And it shouldn't have been expected to solve every problem.

It has contributed to improved European performances - which is key in increasing the reputation of the league. This should have a positive effect on attendances but it will take a couple of seasons to overcome years of people looking down on the league. It might even take a team getting into the group stages of the CL or UEFA before that really kicks in. The switch makes that more likely - though still a big ask.

The summer football switch is worthwhile - but there are a few more fundamental problems to be addressed as well - summer football can only be part of a solution. Marketing, TV coverage (proper coverage) and improved facilities are also just as (if not more) important. :ball:

Billy Lord

02/08/2006, 11:25 AM

Why is everyone looking for panaceas when it's blidingly obvious that a) the facilities are dire, b) the game is innefectively marketed, c) Irish people are largely glory-hunting event snobs who couldn't give a toss when we played.
Summer is better because the weather is better, and that's an inarguable no-brainer.
If attendances are down it means more people have better things to do. Well, then go out and make going to your club's games a better thing again to do!

NY Hoop

02/08/2006, 11:48 AM

its still my opinion that there are far greater deciding factors on crowds than simply the season - a club's own performance, the lack of the rovers away fans, the closing of the shed in cork, the constant moving of fixtures etc etc all impact more imo

100% spot on there.

KOH

Block G Raptor

02/08/2006, 1:58 PM

LFC in Exile

02/08/2006, 2:14 PM

c) Irish people are largely glory-hunting event snobs who couldn't give a toss when we played.

On a small point I think all people are like that - we suffer just as others do. :ball:

Billy Lord

02/08/2006, 2:34 PM

LFC: you'll always get bandwagon jumpers, but the Irish have turned it into a national characteristic. Where else would you get the massive swings in attendances that, say, Leinster egg chasers or the Dublin bogballers get between 'ordinary' games and major ones?
Most football clubs around Europe enjoy an average attendance that rarely dips too high above or below for a given game, while in Irish sport it's all over the place and relevant to success or 'event profile'.
Shels v Depor was a classic example. Would any senior division football club in the world (and I'm not slagging Shels' genuine fans, but the daytrippers) see 24,000 in attendance one week and less than 1,000 the next?
Only in Ireland. And these muppets consider themselves 'the best fans in the world'? The irony, the irony, the self-deluding irony of it all.

wws

02/08/2006, 3:45 PM

pete

02/08/2006, 3:54 PM

no irony at all - its simple, there were 23,000 at the game purely motivated by the chance to see a CL semi finalist with name recognition. Shelbourne were not that team, Deportivo LC were.

I had previous decided never to attend a Shels european game again but i suspended temporarily for chance to see Deportivo live.

Billy Lord

02/08/2006, 4:42 PM

There were many thousands of 'Shels' fans present who were AWOL for the next (and every other) game, even though we all know Shels did themselves proud against Depor. I met an old neighbour of mine who had a Reds' shirt on and swore he was a big Shels' fan, although he was rather vague about the last game he'd attended. Probably Shels-Barcelona in the 1960s.
I despise this mentality, because all these people want is the big day out without giving the commitment that makes such days even more special and personally rewarding. They neither understand nor care about the value of support or the ethic of a true fan.

Schumi

02/08/2006, 4:44 PM

I despise this mentality, because all these people want is the big day out without giving the commitment that makes such days even more special and personally rewarding.without giving the commitment that makes such days possible too, which I find more annoying.

mypost

02/08/2006, 5:07 PM

there were 23,000 at the game purely motivated by the chance to see a CL semi finalist with name recognition. Shelbourne were not that team, Deportivo LC were.

The most ghastly example, I heard from a day tripper, was when speaking to an Irishman after our 0-0 draw with Brazil. His words were:

"I think Brazil should be fined for not winning the game 4 or 5-0, and not entertaining the crowd". :mad: :mad: :mad:

pineapple stu

02/08/2006, 5:46 PM

but its use in genesis was roundly ridiculed on foot.ie due to the estimation of most of the figures (which certainly for the first couple of years were grossly over-estimated). so surely any attempt to use the same figures as an argument for/against summer soccer should similarly be dismissed.
Its use was ridiculous in an official document from which real conclusions were to be drawn. For a group of fans discussing things, it's acceptable, if not perfect, as I've noted.

Both of which were summer seasons. Your numbers don't show a drop between winter and summer, they show a drop from one summer season to another.
Fair point. But unless you can show a large increase around the time of summer soccer (which, while admittedly having no stats about, I don't recall), surely the decrease is also relevant between 2005 and the last season or two of winter soccer?

Student Mullet

02/08/2006, 11:31 PM

Fair point. But unless you can show a large increase around the time of summer soccer (which, while admittedly having no stats about, I don't recall), surely the decrease is also relevant between 2005 and the last season or two of winter soccer?No. You're back to trying to blame the new season for a decrease in attendance which happened a couple of years after summer soccer came in.

The drop in league attendances this season has nothing to do with the season.