View Full Version : Summer Soccer Poll
The 'summer football = t-shirt weather' theory is a little over-simplified, though, isn't it.
For the start and end of the season, most games fall into the cold/dark/wet season anyway.
Conversely, in the height of the summer, a trip to the beach or BBQ might be more appealing to the more casual fan on a Friday evening then travelling across the country to see a match. I put myself in this category, and while there hasn't been much to encourage me to go to the RSC of late, I haven't been since the good weather started, and only start to get interested in footie again when the evenings start to draw in.
Obviously you can argue that I'm not a 'true' fan, but I think I fall into a category of fan that isn't being encouraged by summer football, and that has to be something to look at. Is that enough to change back to winter football? I don't think so. But surely the league has to focus on persuading the floating supporter that a night at the football is the best way to spend your Fridays during the summer months.
lofty9
25/07/2006, 11:49 AM
http://www.uefa.com/footballeurope/news/Kind=2/newsId=439197.html
Dodge
25/07/2006, 11:54 AM
Fitzmaurice writes the UEFA stuff
Rebal Boy
25/07/2006, 8:45 PM
Summer defentily.
sligoman
25/07/2006, 8:45 PM
Summer for EL's better performances in Europe
Winter for the league in general*
*This is the most important in my opinion so I voted winter.
The 'summer football = t-shirt weather' theory is a little over-simplified, though, isn't it.
For the start and end of the season, most games fall into the cold/dark/wet season anyway.
Conversely, in the height of the summer, a trip to the beach or BBQ might be more appealing to the more casual fan on a Friday evening then travelling across the country to see a match. I put myself in this category, and while there hasn't been much to encourage me to go to the RSC of late, I haven't been since the good weather started, and only start to get interested in footie again when the evenings start to draw in.
Obviously you can argue that I'm not a 'true' fan, but I think I fall into a category of fan that isn't being encouraged by summer football, and that has to be something to look at. Is that enough to change back to winter football? I don't think so. But surely the league has to focus on persuading the floating supporter that a night at the football is the best way to spend your Fridays during the summer months.
Not encouraged by summer football? You basically said you prefer to go to the beach or have a BBQ than go to a game, thats your choice fair enough. But apart from putting sand in the stands to make castles with and giving out free burgers what do you think is the best way of "persuading the floating supporter that a night at the football is the best way to spend your Fridays during the summer months"? Quality of football perhaps?
Ok, so maybe not at Waterford! ;) :)
Obviously, being a footie forum, there are a lot of dedicated fans here. All I'm trying to do is come at it from more of the casual fans point of view.
Already a few times this year I've decided a few pints on a Friday evening is more of an appealing option than travelling to the game (a home game for me is still a 60mile round trip). Whatever about the blues' current situation, I'm sure this is happening all over the country.
I don't know what the answer is. Quality of football? Of course that will help. And quality of pitches, euro results etc., which have all been mentioned.
I'm not pushing for a move back to winter, but I don't think it's enough just to change the starting date of the league, and then sit back and expect it all to work perfectly.
dav_sfc
26/07/2006, 8:21 AM
What was the trend of attendances before summer football? going down? at what rate? did summer football help stop this rate or increase it?
I would imagine that attendances would be even worse had we stuck to winter football.
Euroball will help get people to matches 25,000 to see Shels V Depor, more of that please. Imagine Uefa or CL group stage matches!
We can't go back to Mudball or Freezeball, unless bigger teams around europe turn their pitches to mud so we can compete!
Euroball will help get people to matches 25,000 to see Shels V Depor, more of that please. Imagine Uefa or CL group stage matches!
How many at the next Shels domestic home game? Around a 1000 even by optimistic estimates. No one's denying the european results have improved, but to what end? Bragging rights while the league dies?
No one has given any reason why they think attendances in the winter would be better than the summer.
I stands to reason that small clubs will alwasy resist change & progress as feel they will be left behind.
dav_sfc
26/07/2006, 10:13 AM
The league will die if we don't get the co-efficent up and get playing bigger teams year in year out. If lets say.... English clubs were kicked out of european competitions for lets say...6 years, what effect do you think it would have on gate receipts?
Getting success in Europe will change peoples opinion of the EL and get people interested, then watching, then going to games then we get rich, conquor Europe, keep irish players at home, have an irish Ireland squad and a captain of an Eircom/Samsung SuperPremierDivision will lift the World Cup for Ireland. Easy yeah?
dav_sfc
26/07/2006, 10:16 AM
Spot on too pete about the Winterball. Does anyone have figures on the attendances drop per annum when playing Chillball compaired to playing Sunshineball?
Dodge
26/07/2006, 10:38 AM
No one has given any reason why they think attendances in the winter would be better than the summer.
I stands to reason that small clubs will alwasy resist change & progress as feel they will be left behind.
We donm't havbe to give reasons, the facts speak for themselves. Crowds are down in the summer. I've guessed at why above, so obviosly reverse it for why they'd go up in winter...
And european football will not help the league. Will help the individual clubs but as long as they continue to overspend to try and crack "Europe" , they'd be back in ths s****s soon enough
I don't know if success in Europe gets bigger crowds at league games but it is great for feel good factor within the league. Even when we weren't in Europe it was great to see Bohs & Shels (to lesser extent) win in Europe.
I don't know if its enouhg to attract players to the eL but if top teams can guarantee 3 rounds of european football a year its something the non-Premiership english teams cannot offer. Would the Swedes be bidding 600k for Jason Byrne based on eL performances? Maybe UK clubs will never respect eL players but continential clubs not so blinkered?
Patronizer
26/07/2006, 11:34 AM
Winter... if it's a borin game the cold keeps ya awake... :D
I dont mind Summer football but there's just somethin about Winter.
ColinR
26/07/2006, 1:55 PM
everyone seems certain that crowds are down compared to winter?? where is the evidence to prove this? is it just that people think they can remember big crowds in winter matches?
i certainly can remember worse crowds in winter, and not just at drogs matches.
most clubs who are complaining that crowds are down, should also note that their league position is also down since the winter seasons, and perhaps this is having a bigger impact on the crowds tham the weather or the season or..
most clubs who are complaining that crowds are down, should also note that their league position is also down since the winter seasons, and perhaps this is having a bigger impact on the crowds tham the weather or the season or..
And equally those that are saying it's been a great success should too? The only way would be to do it over the whole league, not just individual clubs, obviously.
I personally don't think it's worked, but at the moment we don't really know because no proper evaluation has been done. If one is done, and disproves my arguments then fine, but I don't see why we should aimlessly continue with no idea of what's a success and whats a failure. Afterall, it'll be hard enough to establish whether it has been a success since it was done without any tangible aims and targets - just a "sure we'll give it a go".
ColinR
26/07/2006, 4:17 PM
I personally don't think it's worked, but at the moment we don't really know because no proper evaluation has been done.
agreed on that, and while you (and others) personally feel it hasn't worked, myself and others (a majority according to the poll ;) ) feel it has worked. as it is there is no proper evaluation so far, nobody can actually say for definite if crowds are up or down. there is absolutly no point in changing again, just because people feel that it isn't working because their individual club is not doing as well as they used to.
the only facts we have are the positive ones - our performances in europe are up, and the drogs have never got relegated in a summer season :D
agreed on that, and while you (and others) personally feel it hasn't worked, myself and others (a majority according to the poll ;) ) feel it has workedNo, the question just asked which you preferred. it didn't ask whether summer football worked or not. And there's no point in asking that question of the hardcore fans here
ColinR
26/07/2006, 4:33 PM
No, the question just asked which you preferred. it didn't ask whether summer football worked or not. And there's no point in asking that question of the hardcore fans here
ok then, personally i feel it is working better, and a majority here prefer it. better now :confused:
Aye. I don't think its working but personally I prefer it.
Buller
26/07/2006, 5:34 PM
Summer!
The GAH Championship and music festivals are big things to compete against in the summer. Especially in Donegal.
It may be working for some clubs, but it certainly isn't working for the Harps.
NY Hoop
27/07/2006, 9:40 AM
Summer no doubt.
Firstly to say crowds are hugely down because of summer football is plain wrong. Pineapple Stu will confirm that and also just on going to games there hasnt been a massive decrease.
Secondly June and July are the only months that we play in now that we didnt before. This season has seen a decrease in crowds mainly because of the stupid World Cup break. This has meant more midweek games which are a killer gate wise.
Might I also add that because we are not in the premier crowds are down.
Keely and Matthews want to go back to the old days where they have to hoof the ball because of the mud. Say for example we do go back. Clubs well beaten in Europe again and the crowds will not go up. Is that what people want?:rolleyes:
The future of this league is proper facilities, clubs adhering to UEFA Licensing and the league not bringing in joke non entities like CHF. On the first its great that Harps and Athlone are building new stadiums. If they get to the premier and are competitive they will get crowds no matter when in the year.
KOH
The only difference between summer & winter are May-June-July versus December-January-February. All the other months we play are the same.
Is there a suggestion that clubs such as Longford Town & Finn Harps get bigger crowds in November than July? Can't see that myself.
Dodge
27/07/2006, 11:13 AM
They were though.
De Town
27/07/2006, 12:48 PM
Is there a suggestion that clubs such as Longford Town & Finn Harps get bigger crowds in November than July? Can't see that myself.
Yes we got bigger crowds during winter football.
Yes we got bigger crowds during winter football.
You also got bigger crowds 2 years ago when winning Cups...
You admit attendances are down, yet you say skill levels and the football offered is better. Can't be much else left as a reason bar summer football? If attendances are down, it's obvious people preferred winter seasons.
That is flawed logic
I think there's far more competition in the summer tbh. The only sport we're not clashing with for a few weeks is UK football, instead we have the GAA (which for the rural teams is significant in terms of local championship games too). Maybe we're also competing with the weather as well - In recent weeks has the weather been a help or hindrance with family days out, BBQ's, Beer Gardens, chores in the garden etc?
Im on about competition from other soccer - eg the English league which often clashed directly with el games in the old format.In other countries people are well able to support more that one sport at a time - why would Ireland be any different?
Are you srious about BBQs and the likes? - Oh yeah lets revert to the old format because we want to have a BBQ the odd time - there is always going to be distractions or alternatives to el games - be that in winter or summer
De Town
27/07/2006, 7:49 PM
You also got bigger crowds 2 years ago when winning Cups...
Yes we got bigger crowds then compared to nowadays but our biggest crowds were during winter football.
RonnieB
27/07/2006, 10:08 PM
I voted for winter, *dons his flame resistant pants and goggles and gets the marshmallows ;) *
Buller
27/07/2006, 11:58 PM
Summer! Better pitch conditions and weather contribute largely to a better standard of football. Better standard of football means better results in europe and more fans...
Poor Student
28/07/2006, 12:00 AM
better results in europe and more fans...
It has yet to be proven that there's any correlation between those two.
It has yet to be proven that there's any correlation between those two.
Better results in europe mean more people attend CL & Uefa Cup games...
dav_sfc
28/07/2006, 10:01 AM
RonnieB said it best i think lads. He we are debating who's opinion is right. RonnieB gave his and is enjoying the marshmallows while we try to use a flamethrower on each others opinion.
Statistics can prove anything and its impossible to tell what would actually have happened had we stuck to mudball unless there is a parallel universe that is still playing winterball so we can compare the two. There will always be a factor that will throw off the stats.
So what else can we do but say what we prefer. For me its summerball.
I think the poster of the topic asked us to keep it that way to and someone else was wise enough to point out you will not change the opinion of the stubborn likes of us on this forum ;) Rant over.
Peadar
28/07/2006, 10:14 AM
The proof is in the pudding.
4 eL teams in Europe, 4 teams progress to the 2nd round.
3 still have a chance to go further.
It has yet to be proven that there's any correlation between those two.
Yeah but if you think about it logically (not saying you are not using logic :D ) summer football helps teams in Europe - because of this eventually an el team will qualify for the group stages of cl or Uefa - IMO when this happens the public will finally sit up and take notice to an extent - then I predict attendances will rise - maybe a considerable increase with the team(s) which has made the breakthrough. Also as Pete says Better results in europe mean more people attend CL & Uefa Cup games
Poor Student
28/07/2006, 3:28 PM
Joema, I hope you're right. I'm just thinking back to Shelbourne coming within touching distance of the CL. Their attendances didn't appear to climb at all on the back of a great European campaign. I agree that it can only increase the league's credibility and reputation, however European successes seem to only fill the ground on the night and not the next week in the league games.
CollegeTillIDie
28/07/2006, 3:47 PM
Joema, I hope you're right. I'm just thinking back to Shelbourne coming within touching distance of the CL. Their attendances didn't appear to climb at all on the back of a great European campaign. I agree that it can only increase the league's credibility and reputation, however European successes seem to only fill the ground on the night and not the next week in the league games.
Cork have 5,500 for a game against Crvena Zvezda Beograd ( which is Red Star Belgrade in Serbian), and nothing like that for most of their league games. And folks Cork City are the best supported Club in the EL bar none.
The situation is simple, Summer soccer has improved performances in Europe, BUT HAS DONE NOTHING FOR ATTENDANCES AT THE EL. Quite the opposite , this season everyone's crowds are down!
Having said that I think a complete reversion to Winter football would not necessarily work either. Which is why I haven't voted as such!
GavinZac
28/07/2006, 3:54 PM
summer. attendances, going on official figures, have remained pretty much the same for the last 6 years, going up and down slightly. why does it not suprise me that two of the most degenerating clubs in the league, longford and bray who have taken massive steps backwards recently, are the ones whinging loudest.
Fair point regarding Shels run in Europe and its effect on attendances. But if/when an el team does qualify with the amount of money they get and the players they may be able to attract I can see attendances increasing. If we revert back to winter football it will be ten times harder to progress in Europe
Cork have 5,500 for a game against Crvena Zvezda Beograd ( which is Red Star Belgrade in Serbian), and nothing like that for most of their league games. And folks Cork City are the best supported Club in the EL bar none.
The situation is simple, Summer soccer has improved performances in Europe, BUT HAS DONE NOTHING FOR ATTENDANCES AT THE EL. Quite the opposite , this season everyone's crowds are down!
More european games means more games which means total crowd for the year will be higher therefore higher revenue. More euorpean games improves the profile of the league, more live tv matches & therefore sponsors should be willing to spend more on clubs. More european games means players ability improves & therefore their value increases.
I think no matter what season we play in & no matter how many games we play in europe it is very difficult to increase average attendances - the best we can hope for is big crowds at the biggest games - this is what happens throughout europe.
I don't know if will have immeadiate impact on attendances but no one can deny the eL results in europe haven't given a huge boost to everyone involved in our league this week.
CollegeTillIDie
30/07/2006, 1:08 PM
More european games means more games which means total crowd for the year will be higher therefore higher revenue. More euorpean games improves the profile of the league, more live tv matches & therefore sponsors should be willing to spend more on clubs. More european games means players ability improves & therefore their value increases.
I think no matter what season we play in & no matter how many games we play in europe it is very difficult to increase average attendances - the best we can hope for is big crowds at the biggest games - this is what happens throughout europe.
I don't know if will have immeadiate impact on attendances but no one can deny the eL results in europe haven't given a huge boost to everyone involved in our league this week.
Your points are well made however, one of the selling points for summer soccer was that EL crowds would improve as games would be played in better weather. This has patently not occurred. And apart from 1 or 2 clubs everyone has had reduced crowds this season even Shelbourne, who have the best ground in Dublin, play the best crowd pleasing football in Dublin etc.
Your points are well made however, one of the selling points for summer soccer was that EL crowds would improve as games would be played in better weather. This has patently not occurred. And apart from 1 or 2 clubs everyone has had reduced crowds this season even Shelbourne, who have the best ground in Dublin, play the best crowd pleasing football in Dublin etc.
Yes obviously there was no research done on the advantages summer football would bring. However we are now in a summer season so i think the way to look at the debate is what advantages would winter football bring i.e. its a big chance to move to a different season...
pineapple stu
30/07/2006, 4:34 PM
Firstly to say crowds are hugely down because of summer football is plain wrong. Pineapple Stu will confirm that and also just on going to games there hasnt been a massive decrease.
I won't, I'm afraid. The stats I have show a 22% drop in attendances this year compared to last (this year is yet to finish obviously, but previous seasons have shown that we'll be doing well to avoid a 15% decrease); 2005 showed a 2% decrease. Only seven clubs have attendances up this season on last - including Sligo Rovers and Dublin City (promoted), Dundalk (no longer playing in Monaghan), Athlone, Kildare and Monaghan (both as a result of boosted crowds against Rovers). You lose about 15-20% on Bank Holiday weekends. Certainly there's been a significant drop in away support at UCD games this season and last, although home support is increasing. Attendances are down this season, and quite significantly so.
The proof is in the pudding.
4 eL teams in Europe, 4 teams progress to the 2nd round.
3 still have a chance to go further.
I wonder how much of that can be directly attributed to summer football and not to just a change in attitude on the clubs' behalf? I agree summer football hasn't hurt, but the eL's first good season in Europe in this current run was arguably the 2000/01 season (UCD draw home and away against a Bulgarian side with numerous internationals, Bohs knock out Aberdeen and beat Kaiserslautern and Shels knock out Sloga Jugomagnat) - this was a winter season. So the clubs had shown themselves capable of good European performances in winter seasons as well. Those results could well have given clubs the confidence to have a proper go in Europe as well as show the rewards of getting through just one round in Europe (games against Kaiserslautern and Rosenborg).
I agree that to change back to winter football would be a huge move and one which would have to be properly looked at this time. My preference, however, is for winter football.
A face
30/07/2006, 6:36 PM
Just on the attendances issue in the Winter/Summer debate, no one has even mentioned the fact that no club seems to be making any inroad on barstoolers .... that is the biggest problem. If half the guys who actually like footie supported their local team then we would have this problem.
mypost
31/07/2006, 12:17 AM
So, the main sorry, only reason why we should play in winter, is because crowds would increase. :confused: Would they?
For nearly 20 years, I watched LOI football in the wind and rain in December, and January, and I saw hundreds of deserted stands/sandpits/grassy banks around the country every week. Crowds will not dramatically increase no matter when football is played in this country. Look at places like Galway, Limerick, and Waterford, one-team areas with massive catchment areas, and one Waterford fan here is moaning that a home game for him is a 60-mile round trip. :rolleyes: If you're passionate about your team, you'll travel the 60 miles to go. Our own fans spend thousands of €'s on long-haul trips to Finn Harps, Limerick and Cobh every second week, because our fans have the attitude, the desire, and the passion to watch the team play. We doubled Kilkenny's weekly attendance when we went there, and increased Kildare's weekly attendances ten-fold, when we travelled to Newbridge to watch first-division football. And this is a club with no home ground! Everywhere we've gone, has seen the local side's biggest attendances this season. If fans of other clubs had the same desire to watch their team play, then attendances would improve everywhere, no matter when the games were on.
Student Mullet
31/07/2006, 12:45 AM
So, the main sorry, only reason why we should play in winter, is because crowds would increase. :confused: Would they?
For nearly 20 years, I watched LOI football in the wind and rain in December, and January, and I saw hundreds of deserted stands/sandpits/grassy banks around the country every week. Crowds will not dramatically increase no matter when football is played in this country. Look at places like Galway, Limerick, and Waterford, one-team areas with massive catchment areas, and one Waterford fan here is moaning that a home game for him is a 60-mile round trip. :rolleyes: If you're passionate about your team, you'll travel the 60 miles to go. Our own fans spend thousands of €'s on long-haul trips to Finn Harps, Limerick and Cobh every second week, because our fans have the attitude, the desire, and the passion to watch the team play. We doubled Kilkenny's weekly attendance when we went there, and increased Kildare's weekly attendances ten-fold, when we travelled to Newbridge to watch first-division football. And this is a club with no home ground! Everywhere we've gone, has seen the local side's biggest attendances this season. If fans of other clubs had the same desire to watch their team play, then attendances would improve everywhere, no matter when the games were on.
This Party Political broadcast was brought to you by the 'Shamrock Rovers are Great Foundation'.
Dodge
31/07/2006, 12:59 AM
I don't know if will have immeadiate impact on attendances but no one can deny the eL results in europe haven't given a huge boost to everyone involved in our league this week.
If the Winter campaigners aren't allowed to argue about crowds being down due to some clubs being rubbish now, the summer campaigners shouldn't be allowed use European results as IMO the change to Full time football has been more important in this regard. The point is its very very hard to say whether its worked or not when everyone here has such hugely differing views on what success is/isn't...
If you're passionate about your team, you'll travel the 60 miles to go. Our own fans spend thousands of €'s on long-haul trips to Finn Harps, Limerick and Cobh every second week, because our fans have the attitude, the desire, and the passion to watch the team play. We doubled Kilkenny's weekly attendance when we went there, and increased Kildare's weekly attendances ten-fold, when we travelled to Newbridge to watch first-division football. And this is a club with no home ground! Everywhere we've gone, has seen the local side's biggest attendances this season. If fans of other clubs had the same desire to watch their team play, then attendances would improve everywhere, no matter when the games were on.
You are great! Well done.
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