View Full Version : Wider Middle East conflict
Saint Tom
17/07/2006, 12:13 PM
Hi Guys,
Just wondering what peoples take on the situation at the moment in the middle east. Hamas/Hizbollah raids followed by severe Israeli retaliation. To me it just seems to be a conflict that has no resolution that is satisfactory to both sides. My biggest fear is if it became a wider conflict, possibly involving Iran. To be honest dont think the israeli cabinet will hold back on using their arsnal if that is the case
Poor Student
17/07/2006, 12:17 PM
I'm surprised this hasn't come up yet. It's frightening stuff. I can't believe how far backwards things have gone in the last month. Talk about reopening old wounds.:eek:
Saint Tom
17/07/2006, 12:28 PM
My boss is a member of the jewish community here and through his contacts we would have a lot of jewish customers (both irish and israelis) coming into the branch, and they see this as a sort of frustration that has built up over security fources in Lebanon and Gaza being unable to control the actions of militants. Watching sky news there and Rockets landing on Haifa with alarming frequency and Israeli troops just been deployed on the ground in the Leb. I really think it is about to take off, unfortunately
Poor Student
17/07/2006, 12:41 PM
A state does have a right to defend itself, but Israel are hurting a terrible amount of civilians in the process. I can't see how things can come back from the brink, it really seems a line has been crossed here.
Saint Tom
17/07/2006, 12:48 PM
agreed, the whole region has gone back years this last month. Think Russia hit the nail on the head when they spoke of balanced/proportionate retaliation
beautifulrock
17/07/2006, 1:11 PM
Have Israeli troops gone into Lebanon?? if so that is extremely worrying. Israel will not defeat Hizbollah this way, you cannot drive out an organisation this is entwined with the largest community (Shia Muslims) in the country. Hizbollah are better armed that anyone thought and its mainly Lebanese civilians that are bearing the brunt of the onslaught. It can only be days before Syria gets at the very least a bloody nose from Israel. What will happen then? what other middle eastern countries will get involved. The UN sits on its hands (again). Worrying times indeed.
Poor Student
17/07/2006, 1:22 PM
Yeah, I've been wondering about Syria myself. I thought Lebannon was making progress in wrangling away from them. Are Syria pushing and helping Hizbollah to destabilise thing in Lebannon?
beautifulrock
17/07/2006, 1:32 PM
Yes, Leb as a country is trying to develop and stand on its own two feet. Beirut and the airport are (where) the two shining lights and used as an example of the way forward. However, Hizbollah are heavily reliant on both Syria and Iran for weapons, money etc.
paul_oshea
17/07/2006, 1:36 PM
i have to keep my mouth shut here, but I dont care what anyone says, the retaliation by israel is completely unjust and wrong. they dont care. the problem is they hold too much bloody power in congress in america and they are a base/back door for the US into the middle east.
remember the two irish soldiers killed by israeli forces in the lebanon in the early 80s??!!?
Metrostars
17/07/2006, 3:10 PM
i have to keep my mouth shut here, but I dont care what anyone says, the retaliation by israel is completely unjust and wrong. they dont care.
So are raids into Israel by Hezbollah and capturing Israeli solders ok? And sending a large number of rockets into Haifa? Should they say, "Thats fine, you can do that" ?
the problem is they hold too much bloody power in congress in america
Israel doesnt have any members in the US congress, but the US is an ally of Israel. And they don't care what anyone says.
and they are a base/back door for the US into the middle east.
Except that the US doesnt need to use Israel as a "base/back door for the US into the middle east."
Saint Tom
17/07/2006, 3:44 PM
from what I can gather, the incursions into Lebanon were limited to elite troops and not an attempt to re-occupy. Read a great book on the leb.. Pity the Nation by Robert Fisk. Highly recommended
Syria is a strong ally of Iran, would be a disaster to get them involved, I see that as the biggest potential problem
beautifulrock
17/07/2006, 4:02 PM
Metro, fair point re the reaction to the capture of Israeli soldiers and I agree that every nation has the right to protect itself and its borders. However, I am sure you agree that the killing of civilians in Leb to the degree that is happening at the moment is not acceptable. The Fisk book referred to is above average and a great read.
paul_oshea
17/07/2006, 4:27 PM
metrostars, can you give me an explanation then as to why america is such a "close" ally of israel and always has been. the windy city is a typical example of how money is power in america, and many of those elected congressman have the backing ( the money to *help* them get there ) from very wealthy business ( owned, part owned, or run by jews ).
anyhow thats going off topic, if you want to detabe that open up another thread and I will get into it more.
There is no excuse for the strenght and power of the onslaught israel has retaliated with in the last week.
Metrostars
17/07/2006, 5:02 PM
Metro, fair point re the reaction to the capture of Israeli soldiers and I agree that every nation has the right to protect itself and its borders. However, I am sure you agree that the killing of civilians in Leb to the degree that is happening at the moment is not acceptable. The Fisk book referred to is above average and a great read.
I agree 100% with you.
metrostars, can you give me an explanation then as to why america is such a "close" ally of israel and always has been.
Good article to read: http://www.geocities.com/d_elazar/Terrorism/peacemaker.htm
and many of those elected congressman have the backing ( the money to *help* them get there ) from very wealthy business ( owned, part owned, or run by jews ).
substitute the word jews for catholics/protestants etc etc and the same is true for other interest groups across the board
Marked Man
17/07/2006, 6:20 PM
Even prior to the issue with Hezbollah, the Israeli army had bombed the only power generator in Gaza, and bombed many of the bridges. Without power, neither water nor sewage disposal is available. How can putting the lives of thousands at risk in this way be justified on the basis of rescuing one soldier? I'm not saying that Israel shouldn't try to rescue its soldiers, but can this really be the best way to do it? It seems suspiciously like they've been waiting for provocation for something like this since Hamas won the election.
bennocelt
17/07/2006, 6:49 PM
i have to keep my mouth shut here, but I dont care what anyone says, the retaliation by israel is completely unjust and wrong. they dont care. the problem is they hold too much bloody power in congress in america and they are a base/back door for the US into the middle east.
remember the two irish soldiers killed by israeli forces in the lebanon in the early 80s??!!?
i agree
anyway i dont recognise Israel at all
palestine has a right to defend itself too
paul_oshea
17/07/2006, 8:21 PM
substitute the word jews for catholics/protestants etc etc and the same is true for other interest groups across the board
ya wws, ireland and england being the only - wholly - two catholic/protestant "states" in the world. think man think. :/
bennocelt, it is an illegal state. has never been recognised. 1979 wasnt just the year the pope came to ireland!!!!!!!!!
just a few facts for ye metrostars - that you and others probably werent aware of - the israelies have captured thousands of lebanese civilians imprisoned them indefiniately without trial, fired missiles over the border and killed scores of lebonese shepherds, nor is the fact israel kept targeting hamas members for assassination long after hamas agreed to a ceasefire, also the crushing irony of destroying the doctrine bush epoused post 2001, whereby democracy should be allowed to flourish in the middle east, they punished palestinians, for voting in hamas, in free and democractic elections, by cutting off finances they collected on behalf of the palestinian goverment and cutting off vital money needed for medical equipment....do ye want me to keep goign? they have been looking for an excuse to do this for a long time, and this little predicament has given them that excuse.
One day Israel will understand that it can bomb Gaza, the Westbank, Lebanon and probably Syria back to the stone age, but all they wil
paul_oshea
17/07/2006, 8:39 PM
One day Israel will understand that it can bomb Gaza, the Westbank, Lebanon and probably Syria back to the stone age, but all they will achieve is to increase the number of people who have nothing to lose, and think Israel is the cause of this. Just the sort of people who go on to become suicide bombers!
dancinpants
17/07/2006, 9:05 PM
One day Israel will understand that it can bomb Gaza, the Westbank, Lebanon and probably Syria back to the stone age, but all they will achieve is to increase the number of people who have nothing to lose, and think Israel is the cause of this. Just the sort of people who go on to become suicide bombers!
Ammm, I think Iran would have something to say about that...infact they have already warned Israel that they'd be better off not attacking Syrian, otherwise they'd face severe consequences.
This will contribute nothing to the debate but everytime I start to read into the Middle East I get so frustrated and have to leave it. The whole thing sickens/frightens and scares me at alternative stages and for every legitimate point I hear, there's an equally legitimate point made against it.
As it stands, apart from a TV/cinema documentaries, I leave this area alone.
Now, on with your discussions...
Metrostars
17/07/2006, 11:26 PM
ya wws, ireland and england being the only - wholly - two catholic/protestant "states" in the world. think man think. :/
bennocelt, it is an illegal state. has never been recognised. 1979 wasnt just the year the pope came to ireland!!!!!!!!!
just a few facts for ye metrostars - that you and others probably werent aware of - the israelies have captured thousands of lebanese civilians imprisoned them indefiniately without trial, fired missiles over the border and killed scores of lebonese shepherds, nor is the fact israel kept targeting hamas members for assassination long after hamas agreed to a ceasefire, also the crushing irony of destroying the doctrine bush epoused post 2001, whereby democracy should be allowed to flourish in the middle east, they punished palestinians, for voting in hamas, in free and democractic elections, by cutting off finances they collected on behalf of the palestinian goverment and cutting off vital money needed for medical equipment....do ye want me to keep goign? they have been looking for an excuse to do this for a long time, and this little predicament has given them that excuse.
One day Israel will understand that it can bomb Gaza, the Westbank, Lebanon and probably Syria back to the stone age, but all they wil
And you are telling me this because???? I never said I wholey supported Israel. All I said was that Israel has a right to defend itself when they are attacked. And that their response was too heavy handed.
beautifulrock
18/07/2006, 8:06 AM
What happens next is the question. Israel say they will not stop until they disarm the Hizbollah. If this is the case then the answer will be never. This is now the ideal recruiting ground for the Hizbollah. I am also convinced that Israel will launch at least one attack on Syria to show who is boss and to slap them down for the continued support to Hizbollah. We have to hope that Iran does not then feel the need to protect Syria. At this moment I believe Iran will not get involved unless Israel go over the top with Syria ( a real possibility of course).
paul_oshea
18/07/2006, 8:28 AM
And you are telling me this because???? I never said I wholey supported Israel. All I said was that Israel has a right to defend itself when they are attacked. And that their response was too heavy handed.
No, because you were dis-agreeing with everything I said without actually backing up what you were saying. I backed up my argument. Also answer me this, why did america stop the invasion of kuwait and send in ground troops backed up by the navy???? how come nobody is talking about sending in a ground force to stop the IDF invading lebanon.
ya wws, ireland and england being the only - wholly - two catholic/protestant "states" in the world. think man think. :/
I cant believe you follow up one farcical comment with this little gem!
Only ones are they? thats news to me and the rest of the world and has nothing to do with the point I was making. To single out "Jews" as lobbying in the states is to show such stunning disregard for the entire US history and the political system there were every conceivable interest group organise lobbying and try and exert influence its just gas!
paul_oshea
18/07/2006, 10:33 AM
Only ones are they? thats news to me and the rest of the world and has nothing to do with the point I was making
exactly my point, i would have thought you spotted the irony....did you honestly not cop what i was getting at? Israel is the only jewish-run-state in the world
its not gas. its fact. america has a key interest in israel thus providing its government with money and weapons to fund its "defence" forces...
do you think if the British army came back into N. Ireland and fired a rocket or whatever over into the republic that the irish government would send the Irish Defence Forces to go out all guns blazing ( excuse the pun ) attacking northern ireland....
america has key interests everywhere man
including here
paul_oshea
18/07/2006, 10:51 AM
ya....man
glad to keep u in the picture
now watch out for those Jews man!
paul_oshea
18/07/2006, 11:07 AM
now watch out for those Jews man!
don't worry i live with one, im always keeping BOTH eyes in my socket and well open ;)
Metrostars
18/07/2006, 2:29 PM
No, because you were dis-agreeing with everything I said without actually backing up what you were saying. I backed up my argument. Also answer me this, why did america stop the invasion of kuwait and send in ground troops backed up by the navy???? how come nobody is talking about sending in a ground force to stop the IDF invading lebanon.
Que?
I was just disagreeing with your original assertion that Israel should not retaliate when they are attacked and that Israel controls the US congress. The other stuff you posted has nothing to do with that.
Then you asked why the US was an ally of Israel to which I post a link to a Economist article on the subject.
do you think if the British army came back into N. Ireland and fired a rocket or whatever over into the republic that the irish government would send the Irish Defence Forces to go out all guns blazing ( excuse the pun ) attacking northern ireland....
Sooo, what would you do? (seriously)
paul_oshea
18/07/2006, 2:42 PM
actually, i had this discussion at lunch and my mate thought it would be a great idea to go bombing northern ireland and thought it would be completely justified. i just dont see this angle at all.
maybe i should turn it around what if we bombed into northern ireland, do you honestly think Britain would send in its army to the republic, if say the IRA or continuity IRA bombed a military base in N. Ireland from the republic. NO THEY WOULD NOT.
thats a better parallel than the original, as lebanon is like a smaller less powerful nation than israel, much like GB and Ireland ;)
Metrostars
18/07/2006, 3:58 PM
Well thats grand then Paul. Why bother having a defence force if you're not going to bother using it except for the odd peace mission for the UN?
paul_oshea
18/07/2006, 4:00 PM
defence force is exactly that. not an offence force.
so do you think all these countries offering there jets( circa 2,000 and another 2 or so to go ) and navy ships to evacuate all their own peoples, is a lot smarter, wiser and safer than telling israel "cop the fcuk on"?!?!
Saint Tom
18/07/2006, 6:04 PM
when surrounding heads of state vow to "wipe you off the face of the map" it is not so irrational to use the term "defence" force.
I dont believe it is Israels intention to get involved in a long drawn out affair, they will go ahead with their barrier and isolate themseleves from the rest of the middle east. Israelis dont want to destroy the arab way of life, they just want recognition of their right to exist and not be attacked.
WeAreRovers
18/07/2006, 6:21 PM
Israelis dont want to destroy the arab way of life, they just want recognition of their right to exist and not be attacked.
And if you believe that...............
KOH
dancinpants
18/07/2006, 6:26 PM
when surrounding heads of state vow to "wipe you off the face of the map" it is not so irrational to use the term "defence" force.
If thats reference to the Iranian PM's comment, he didn't "VOW" anything, he said Israel SHOULD be wiped off the map, thats a big difference from "VOWING" to actually do it. :rolleyes:
beautifulrock
18/07/2006, 9:29 PM
I think we all agree that some of Israel's neighbours do not help the situation by some of their statements. However, i also firmly believe that Israel do not help themselves and their history of flexing their power is tedious. The latest is that they are blaming Iran for the abduction of the two soldiers. This is not good news and a worrying change of "blame" direction. I am interested to know what Israels end game is?
The latest is that they are blaming Iran for the abduction of the two soldiers.
Israel blame Iran...US blames Syria...Lebanon is caught in the middle until they decide, perhaps?
paul_oshea
19/07/2006, 8:36 AM
ya no one is seeing lebanons side in this, just letting israel do as this please. this is going to be a generalisation that most will agree with but wont want me sayiing it, but all and i mean all, fair enough only about 20 jewish people, that I have met have an extremely arrogant streak, not noticeable at first, as they come across quite friendly but then when you get to know them more you can see it a mile off.
Israel, is an arrogant state, who do as they please and dont seem to have to answer to anyone, they flex their power because they feel they can do so. So where does it stop as you so rightly question beautiful rock?
beautifulrock
19/07/2006, 8:47 AM
Israel blame Iran...US blames Syria...Lebanon is caught in the middle until they decide, perhaps?
DFX, I think you will now see the US starting to blame Iran. Hold on a minute did those two not have an issue a few weeks back over something else?? now theres a coincidence. This is what I mean about the "end game" and the worrying part of this is the hidden agenda's. Israel want their two soldiers back, yet they have already lost a minimum of 11 other members of their armed forces trying to achieve this. Still no doubt that Hizbollah have shocked many with their long range missiles.
Poor Student
19/07/2006, 10:31 AM
What's going on in the Gaza strip now? Weren't Israel already pounding it for a captured soldier before the Lebanese crisis? Did they get that soldier back? Do they have any guarantees any of the soldiers are still alive?
Partizan
19/07/2006, 11:48 AM
VATICAN CITY - 17 July 2006 - 250 words
Vatican condemns Israeli attacks on Lebanon
The Holy See has protested Israel's air raids on Lebanon, condemning both terrorist acts and reprisals that violate national sovereignty and strike at innocent civilians.
On Friday, Vatican Secretary of State, Cardinal Angelo Sodano, on Friday read a public statement which was broadcast on Vatican Radio. (Pope Benedict is currently on vacation in the Italian Alps.)
It said: "As in the past, the Holy See condemns both the terrorist attacks on the one side and the military reprisals on the other." It stated that Israel's right to self-defence "does not exempt it from respecting the norms of international law, especially as regards the protection of civilian populations."
"In particular, the Holy See deplores the attack on Lebanon, a free and sovereign nation."
Cardinal Sodano concluded with a renewed appeal for an end to armed struggle and a renewal of negotiations.
Israeli air strikes which have continued since 12 July, have now killed and wounded hundreds of people, mostly civilians. The attacks have disabled power plants, destroyed bridges, and severed major highways.
Meanwhile from their quarters in Lebanon, Hezbollah guerillas have launched a series of rocket attacks on targets inside Israel. Yesterday at least eight people were killed and dozens were injured in an attack on Haifa. Earlier, Christian pilgrims Nazareth, on the Sea of Galilee was hit by several rockets.
Cardinal Sodano said that the Holy Father was carefully following news of the latest developments in the Middle East, "which risk degenerating into a conflict with international repercussions."
Source: Vatican Radio
© Independent Catholic News 2006
Partizan
19/07/2006, 11:59 AM
Interesting article from antiwar.com by Justin Raimondo.
Pretty much hit the nail on the head in his assessment of the Middle East.
http://antiwar.com/justin/
ken foree
19/07/2006, 12:40 PM
terrible situation, it makes you wonder why hezbollah kicked it all off. stratfor.com, while unclear as to exactly why, has it that there's a likely combination of factors: hezbollah's influence in palestine is challenged by hamas and they needed to show they are the preeminent extremists in this regard; that syria's departure from lebanon has left a vacuum that hezbollah is exploiting as a window of opportunity that might close; and that the iranians see hezbollah as an efficient leveraging tool (and can fight a war for them hundreds of miles away) - iran continually seeks to be the dominant power in the middle east and actually saw its radical position usurped and outflanked in 2001 by al qaeda. this forced iran to rattle its saber of their nuclear capabilities, wiping israel out, etc. on the surface iran appears irrational, but they want a stable iraq on their border without a long-term u.s. presence. supporting hezbollah's recent rocket attacks is just another leveraging tool in the wider scheme of things.
also: israel cannot tolerate attacks that routinely strike at its heartland. israel and hezbollah have both confirmed that hez rockets can reach tel-aviv. this is unnacceptable to israel. for them to allow sporadic and unpredictable attacks eminating from behind a border to their north without responding is both political and cultural anathema. they want to crush hezbollah to the point where it will take hez years - a generation perhaps - to recover. again, this is all from stratfor's reading of the situation. israel's response hasn't generated condemnation from the western powers so israel cannot pass this open window by either. they have an inherent distrust of international peacekeeping forces and the same can be said of their attitude toward the lebanese security forces who are either unwilling or unable to contain hezbollah's activities inside lebanon.
i deplore the innocent lives lost. although from this analysis you can sort've see why the respective sides behave the way they do.
paul_oshea
19/07/2006, 12:47 PM
ken dont know that website, but you are only seeing one side of it there re: second paragraph
Noelys Guitar
19/07/2006, 1:41 PM
The americans could stop this today. Not sending in an envoy until at least this coming Sunday is a disgrace. You have conservatives from both the first Bush admin and Reagans admin telling this current crew of criminals in charge to get an envoy over to the middle-east pronto. The television and radio coverage here in the US is for the most part warped and biased in favour of Israel. But there is a growing unease amongst people here about the blind support for Israel. Watch as Liberman gets beaten in the upcoming election. all due to his support for the war in Iraq.
Metrostars
19/07/2006, 2:08 PM
ya no one is seeing lebanons side in this, just letting israel do as this please. this is going to be a generalisation that most will agree with but wont want me sayiing it, but all and i mean all, fair enough only about 20 jewish people, that I have met have an extremely arrogant streak, not noticeable at first, as they come across quite friendly but then when you get to know them more you can see it a mile off.
Do your 20 Jewish friends also hoard lots of money too? I have 2 neighbours, both from Ukraine. One is an electician, the other a plumber. Ukraine must be full of construction workers.
The americans could stop this today. Not sending in an envoy until at least this coming Sunday is a disgrace. You have conservatives from both the first Bush admin and Reagans admin telling this current crew of criminals in charge to get an envoy over to the middle-east pronto. The television and radio coverage here in the US is for the most part warped and biased in favour of Israel. But there is a growing unease amongst people here about the blind support for Israel. Watch as Liberman gets beaten in the upcoming election. all due to his support for the war in Iraq.
I agree with you re Bushco, sleeping at the wheel again. As for Lieberman, the pressure is coming more from outside the state, and the usual dem fans such as Streisand etc are pushing Lamont heavily. But I still think Lieberman will win. Though I disagree with his stance over Iraq, he has done a lot for the state.
paul_oshea
19/07/2006, 2:48 PM
metrostars you know as well I do any survey is carried out on demographics. if say 50 % of that survey came back with something from about 1,000 ( as a survey is required to have said numbers ) people surveyed saying they liked ice-cream that would be a basis to say 50% of people in that area ( or people of that type ) like ice cream. if i meet 20 people and all, not just 70,80 or 90 % act in a certain way you can be scepitcal, but when 100% conform, then you can relatively say that at least a high percentage of that said people or demograph of people also conform to that way. if ( like many people who have met me ) someone from europe or wherever met 10 irish people and 7 of those liked to have a good few drinks at the weekend surely it would be a fair assumption for that person to form an opinion that a lot of irish people like to have a drink and the craic at the weekend? mais non? and they would be right, because we do. else statistics are flawed.
anyhow thats getting lost on it, why are main news stations biast do you think noely?!?!?! Who is CNN owned by?!?! FOX?!?!? News Corp and who are the main stakeholders in that?
lad its smacking you in the face and if you want to see it you can. thats realism for you not generalisations.
Metrostars
19/07/2006, 3:28 PM
Fine, we can agree to disagree.
BTW, on my estimate, I know about 300 jews and about 100 of them I know them very well. Those people I know are no more arogant than any other group of people. So what does that tell you? But what does that matter anyway, these are jews who not live in Israel.
As for CNNCBSFOXNEWSMSNBCABC, I don't bother watching them. They're all crap, opinionated and biased. I tend to read a lot of stuff instead. The only news I watch on TV is for local news.
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