Wider Middle East conflict [Archive] - Page 2

ken foree

19/07/2006, 6:13 PM

ken dont know that website, but you are only seeing one side of it there re: second paragraph

well that's why i posted TWO paragraphs! and neither represent my opinion, like i said, they are the paraphrased analyses of strategic forecasting based in austin texas. i believe in the creation of a palestinian state, am skeptical of the notion of isreali supranationalism, and that israel often responds with far too much force.

still... why DID hezbollah launch rockets into israel? that's the real question to be pondered, surely. israel's response is, after all, very predictable at this stage.

Metrostars

19/07/2006, 6:15 PM

ya metro fair enough agree to disagree. i should note above though the 20 i mentioned above would be praticing jews. a close and good friend is jewish by birth but thats where the buck stops!!!

but answer me this why do you think those channels stated by me above are so biased?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

The reason: They cater to their audiences who get to hear what they want to hear. Whether it is truthful or not doesnt really matter to them. TBH for all it's warts, I much prefer the RTE news to any of the mainstream garbage that is shown over here e.g. the only time I saw an interview of el Bush that was honest and unscripted was the only the Carol Coleman one.

dancinpants

19/07/2006, 7:01 PM

still... why DID hezbollah launch rockets into israel? that's the real question to be pondered, surely. israel's response is, after all, very predictable at this stage.

I need to go back to the start of this actually. What was the order of events? Hezbollah, takes two Israeli's prisoner - Israel reponds with attacks on Lebanon, THEN Hezbollah started firing rockets? I thought that was the order of events (in relation to the opening up of the "northern" front).

Anyway, in response to your question, its possible that Hezbollah wanted to take some of the heat off Hamas and the Palestinians as they were gettin' flattened for taking the first Israeli prisoner.

I think its important that use of the word "kidnapped" isn't used. If kidnapped is appropriate, then we have to say that Israel "kidnapped" hundreds of Palestinians. It can't be "kidnapping" for one side, and "arresting" for the other, its just symantics being used by one side to paint a bad image of the other.

strangeirish

19/07/2006, 7:24 PM

The reason: They cater to their audiences who get to hear what they want to hear. Whether it is truthful or not doesnt really matter to them. TBH for all it's warts, I much prefer the RTE news to any of the mainstream garbage that is shown over here e.g. the only time I saw an interview of el Bush that was honest and unscripted was the only the Carol Coleman one.

Same here Metrostars. I could not have worded that response any better. It just amazes me how many people in the US fall for that type of 'News' reporting, or should I say Broadcasting.

Metrostars

19/07/2006, 8:41 PM

Back to one of your original points about jewish influence in the US congress. The problem is not a jewish influence but rather a Christian-right influence who see it as their job to help Israel at all costs. I know many jewish here in the US who openly disagree with Israel's actions.

paul_oshea

19/07/2006, 9:23 PM

The reason: They cater to their audiences who get to hear what they want to hear.

chicken and egg here for me metrostars. how do you know its what they want to hear? what if they took a completely different side and decided to start showing the poor palestinians and innocent lebonese, americans love victimisation ( ricki lake all that crap) , then surely theywould be showing - like you said - WHAT THE AMERICANS WANT TO HEAR. its because they have been seeing one side from so long that they WANT or think they want to see those bloody arab terrorists.

I have a broadcast from some australian TV station where they went out on the street and started asking randomers in america where Iran and north korea was - all new north korea and iran were "evil" - yet none could remotely pinpoint where it was. guess where they pointed out (for logical reasons i assume they thought because it was isolated this must be it ) AUSTRALIA. Again you can say they picked out the dumbest, these people looked respectable middle class americans, some suited and booted, it was 5 mins long and it had about 25 people interviewed.......

the question I was asking was more in relation to who owns those media organisations.

dancin pants i completely agree with you about being jewsih doesnt automatically assume israeli, howver being israeli does *generally* ( bar arabs and some 9% christian ) assume jewish. but fair point.

anyhow I think most of us agree that the israelis shouldnt be doing what they are doing, another 55 civillians killed......two more truck loads of humanitarian aid from the Emirates bombed...need I continue?!?!

it just smacks of hypocrisy to me, how the "western" world has turned a blind eye to this.

ken foree

20/07/2006, 12:18 PM

you do understand paul o'shea - that when you say 'americans' who support this administration's policies and hype up the arab boogeyman, that you are talking about 35 to 40% of the entire u.s. population?? and you found no reply to my response up there as to why hezbollah have attacked? turning a 'blind eye' to one side's activities does not and should not include turning a blind eye to the other. yea lobbing missles onto innocent people's heads is a gas, getting on a bus every day in israel in fear of your life must be great. eh?
the fat dumb yank thing is really getting old

paul_oshea

20/07/2006, 12:44 PM

ken i never said the fat dumb yank thing. and i have heard this all the time from americans, oh we dont vote for him we hate him, yet he is still in power?!?! so its at least 51% that think like this. I never take heed of those popularity index thingies, because before the election his support supposedly wained to a low 30% yet he gets re-elected 6 months down the line?!?! whats that all about....

I never said anything about, its what they WANT to hear thats what metrostars said, I was saying maybe if they were being spoon fed all propoganda that the israelis are evil and the spawn of satan crushing the poor arabs, that this may then be what they WANT to hear, as was stated by Metrostars. Its those that you meet out of america that will tell you how they read this and that and how they hate CNN etc, but only because htey have seen different, those that havent are still being spoon fed pro-israeli propoganda.

Finally, on your point about seeing one side, yes I have given a different side of it here, because what I was reading earlier on was very much one sided. It still is however my opinion. I do think that hizbollah were taking the heat off the palestinians, but there is a little more to it than that....

ken foree

20/07/2006, 1:09 PM

ken i never said the fat dumb yank thing.

yea but you implied it. with the 'americans can't find such and such a place on a map even though they're well-dressed' game. if you don't trust popularity indexes, why would you trust this to be representative of a country of 270 million people

and i have heard this all the time from americans, oh we dont vote for him we hate him, yet he is still in power?!?! so its at least 51% that think like this. I never take heed of those popularity index thingies, because before the election his support supposedly wained to a low 30% yet he gets re-elected 6 months down the line?!?! whats that all about....

google diebold and ken blackwell, his role in the corrupt ohio election in '04 is well documented. and 51% of people who voted, which was less than 100 million total, most americans are moderates who are fed up with the two party system, i'd imagine.

I never said anything about, its what they WANT to hear thats what metrostars said, I was saying maybe if they were being spoon fed all propoganda that the israelis are evil and the spawn of satan crushing the poor arabs, that this may then be what they WANT to hear, as was stated by Metrostars. Its those that you meet out of america that will tell you how they read this and that and how they hate CNN etc, but only because htey have seen different, those that havent are still being spoon fed pro-israeli propoganda.

tv news is a business and at the moment is apparently licking bushco's ar$es, never watch it so i can't comment specifically

Finally, on your point about seeing one side, yes I have given a different side of it here, because what I was reading earlier on was very much one sided. It still is however my opinion. I do think that hizbollah were taking the heat off the palestinians, but there is a little more to it than that....

..as i posted initially. 'a little more to it' might be the understatement of the year! no heroes and saints in this thing, israel is often a rogue state that even bites the hand that feeds it (google uss liberty) and get too much aid from the u.s. to be sure but.. there's always a but

paul_oshea

20/07/2006, 2:44 PM

documented. and 51% of people who voted, which was less than 100 million total

i thought you said it was a country of 270 million ( i thought its about 250 + illegals )? that cant be right then!!! :D

Metrostars

20/07/2006, 6:48 PM

i thought you said it was a country of 270 million ( i thought its about 250 + illegals )? that cant be right then!!! :D

Last election info:
Population: 293,655,404
Total Voting Age Population: 217,767,000
Total Registered Voters: 167,802,660
Total Votes: 122,293,548
% VAP: 56.2%
% REG: 72.9%

Bush: 62,040,610 (50.73%)
Kerry: 59,028,439 (48.27%)
Nader: 463,655 (0.38%)
Badnarik: 397,265 (0.32%)
Other: 363,579 (0.30%)

(http://www.uselectionatlas.org/)

dancinpants

20/07/2006, 7:50 PM

Bush: 62,040,610 (50.73%)

Don't care what anyone says but that still scares the **** out of me! :eek:

Noelys Guitar

20/07/2006, 7:59 PM

Here is a quote from a member of congress today
"This is the usual problem with any resolution that talks about Israel — there are a lot of closet naysayers up there (in Congress), but they don't want to be a target of the lobby" of Israel, said Eugene H. Bird, president of the Council for the National Interest, a group that harshly condemns Israel's military campaign. Hiding behind Cheney and crew are a whole host of AIPAC Jewish members.

Metrostars

20/07/2006, 8:22 PM

Don't care what anyone says but that still scares the **** out of me! :eek:

The numbers that disturb me the most are:

Total Voting Age Population: 217,767,000
Total Registered Voters: 167,802,660

So there are almost 50million who eligible to vote but not registered. I guess if you took out non-citizens, the number come would down a lot.

dancinpants

20/07/2006, 9:00 PM

The numbers that disturb me the most are:

Total Voting Age Population: 217,767,000
Total Registered Voters: 167,802,660

Am let me see....no. The fact that there are 62,000,000 mentally unstable people running around this country is infinitely more disturbing.

paul_oshea

21/07/2006, 9:25 AM

Hiding behind Cheney and crew are a whole host of AIPAC Jewish members.

Yes there are. and not just behind cheney.....

that number is disturbing on both counts Dancinpants, and its something I was way wrong about, I thought it was something like 5 mil. But again I have a lot of american friends, and some of them dont bother there arses voting which is even more disturbing, cos they havent registered to vote or are just simply too lazy, then there is the worse one, where some say well ye know like, we dont want either in there, its a case of which one in do you want less!!!!

Marked Man

21/07/2006, 2:41 PM

Last election info:
Population: 293,655,404
Total Voting Age Population: 217,767,000
Total Registered Voters: 167,802,660
Total Votes: 122,293,548
% VAP: 56.2%
% REG: 72.9%

Bush: 62,040,610 (50.73%)
Kerry: 59,028,439 (48.27%)
Nader: 463,655 (0.38%)
Badnarik: 397,265 (0.32%)
Other: 363,579 (0.30%)

(http://www.uselectionatlas.org/)

So, the actual support for Bush at the time of the election, in terms of percentage of the [voting age] population as a whole was approximately 27%. Which can win you an election, if you lock up large numbers of potential voters with the war on (ahem) drugs.

Metrostars

21/07/2006, 5:34 PM

So, the actual support for Bush at the time of the election, in terms of percentage of the [voting age] population as a whole was approximately 27%. Which can win you an election, if you lock up large numbers of potential voters with the war on (ahem) drugs.

Well, not totally accurate because about 50 million of the 217 million "Voting Age Population" are not registered to vote. Of that 50 million, I guess maybe half are not eligible to vote. This is made up of non-citizens and convicted felons who are not eligible to vote in some states.

My guess is about 25 million others not registered.

Marked Man

22/07/2006, 12:11 AM

Well, not totally accurate because about 50 million of the 217 million "Voting Age Population" are not registered to vote. .

???? Which is why I said "voting age population" rather than, say, "registered voters."

Noelys Guitar

22/07/2006, 5:47 AM

Where's Hinckley when you need him?

dancinpants

22/07/2006, 6:16 AM

Don't be worrying about AIPAC, its the PNAC you need to worry about!!!. Because it all seems to be falling into place very nicely.

PNAC=Project for a New American Century.

Google it - you'll find it interesting! ;)

Noelys Guitar

22/07/2006, 6:45 AM

DP belive me I know exactly who PNac are. I am one of the "outsiders" travelling up to connecticut to help defeat Liberman.( no dig metrostar and I very much respect your opinions). The US is going through a real crisis. The murder rate is going through the roof. MY own city of Philadelphia is already above the 300 murders for this year. Once more violent crime is rampant and I mean rampant in the US (exactly like the early 70's). all due to Chimpy McFlightsuit taking away from city Police forces to fight his illegal war. Incredible to say but Bush is much worse than Nixon. I intend to do everything I personally can as a Shamrock Rovers (always season ticket holder when living in Ireland) and Irish citizen to stop this despicable regime. and I can no longer stand by as innocent people of Lebannon are bombarded by Brooklyn and NJ/Pa rejects.

Marked Man

22/07/2006, 2:57 PM

Incredible to say but Bush is much worse than Nixon. I intend to do everything I personally can as a Shamrock Rovers (always season ticket holder when living in Ireland) and Irish citizen to stop this despicable regime.

Curious to know what you, in the capacity of Shamrock Rovers fan, can do to stop this despicable regime, NG.

pete

22/07/2006, 10:41 PM

Moderator: OK i'm back from Cyprus (did not see any evacuees but airport very busy) so lets keep this on topic folks. Start new thread if want to discuss US voting patterns.

Israel may have had reasons to respond to Hezbollah in initially but its gone way beyond that & every country in the worls should condemn.

Hezbollah want Israel to invade & probably just need to up the ante to provoke Israel - lets face it they very easily provoked.

You can blame Iran & Syria for funding Hezbollah but its no different that the US v USSR cold war being played out in neutral territories. Remember the US gives Israel $2.5bn "security assistance" every year.

Bush once again showed how much an idiot he is by his comments "off mic" with Blair. Blair lost any remaining credibility in Bushes replies to his questions - it was like waltching Big Brother bitchy contestants. :eek:

The Middle East is a mess & cannot be solved.

dancinpants

24/07/2006, 3:46 PM

Moderator: OK i'm back from Cyprus (did not see any evacuees but airport very busy) so lets keep this on topic folks. Start new thread if want to discuss US voting patterns.

US voting patterns can be said to directly relate to the US stance in situations such as the mid-east conflict.

paul_oshea

26/07/2006, 8:17 AM

law onto themselves:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/0726/lebanon.html

pete

26/07/2006, 9:42 AM

UN officials usually have big blue sign on their roof. The fact that they targetted by a warplane means cannot be just a stray shell. Clearly Israel trying to intimidate the UN as don't want any witnesses.

dfx-

26/07/2006, 3:18 PM

http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/0726/lebanon.html

Looking at the headlines of video links there Dermot Ahern says the latest developments are a *disappointment*...

...Really, Dermot?:rolleyes:

dancinpants

26/07/2006, 3:58 PM

Looking at the headlines of video links there Dermot Ahern says the latest developments are a *disappointment*...

...Really, Dermot?:rolleyes:

Where does the Irish Government stand with regards to the conflict in the Middle East? This attack on the UN has been the only instance that I've found condemnation of the Israeli's. I haven't found any condemnation from the Government condemning what is basically Israeli carpet bombing of the Leb!! Is it the typical "Well America and Britain are basically shoulder to shoulder with Israel so we better keep schtum" bullsh1t?

Dodge

26/07/2006, 4:27 PM

Where does the Irish Government stand with regards to the conflict in the Middle East? This attack on the UN has been the only instance that I've found condemnation of the Israeli's. I haven't found any condemnation from the Government condemning what is basically Israeli carpet bombing of the Leb!! Is it the typical "Well America and Britain are basically shoulder to shoulder with Israel so we better keep schtum" bullsh1t?
Extracts from press releases

http://www.dfa.ie/Press_Releases/20060718/2118.htm
But Israel is a strong military power. We share the belief within the EU that its military response in Gaza and in Lebanon has been harsh and disproportionate. Israel has a legitimate right to defend its citizens, but this must not be at the expense of the lives and welfare of Lebanese and Palestinian civilians. All military operations must be carried out in strict accordance with international law. And all parties must act on their responsibility to protect civilian lives. It has to be said that Israel is clearly failing to do so.

http://www.dfa.ie/Press_Releases/20060713/2115.htm
I condemn the deaths of large numbers of civilians in Israeli attacks on Lebanon and in Gaza. They are being caused by harshly disproportionate military action. I call on the Israeli Government to ensure that military operations are undertaken only in accordance with international law. It should end its blockade on Lebanon, stop the destruction of civilian infrastructure in Lebanon and Gaza, and act urgently to avoid a humanitarian crisis in the Occupied Territories

http://www.dfa.ie/Press_Releases/20060721/2119.htm
Conor Lenihan, T.D., Minister of State for Development Cooperation and Human Rights, today announced that the Government is to provide �1 million in relief assistance for Lebanon and Palestine to meet the growing humanitarian needs as a result of the current crisis.

An immediate sum of �500,000 in humanitarian relief will be made available for Lebanon and �500,000 in emergency humanitarian support will be provided for Palestine.

The Minister stated �Ireland shares a strong sense of solidarity with Lebanon and its people, not least as a result of our long history of involvement with the UNIFIL peacekeeping force. We are also very concerned at the serious humanitarian situation in Gaza and the Occupied Territories. The Government has called for an end to the violence in and from Lebanon, Israel and Palestine and is extremely concerned at the large number of civilian casualties and the continued destruction of essential infrastructure. We will continue to exert our influence directly with the parties and within the EU and at the UN to end the crisis and encourage a return to political negotiation.�

paul_oshea

26/07/2006, 4:38 PM

does nobody remember the two irish soldiers that got killed in 81 by the israelis?

I did like the use of the word "goverments SUMMONS israeli envoy" that was quite strong. fair play to ahern if thats what he said.

again i better keep my real feelings hidden or ill be getting a ban!!

Dodge

26/07/2006, 4:42 PM

again i better keep my real feelings hidden or ill be getting a ban!!
As long as you're not an idiot, you won't.

paul_oshea

27/07/2006, 9:49 AM

NO, dodge it might be too close to the bone for some, a smack of 21st century realism.

I am not an idiot, I dont know about you however ;)

Dodge

27/07/2006, 10:11 AM

Oh I'm definitely an idiot. Iwas just saying you won't get banned for expressing your opinion if you do it in a decent way...

hoops1

27/07/2006, 10:55 AM

I havent had time to read all the posts so some of these points
may have been made already
imo the Israelis are evil warmongers
Looking at the murder of innocent civilians last night
on the box would make you a supporter of all things anti Israel
Imagine if the British bombed Dublin like that every time the IRA killed
one of its soldiers!
They deliberately killed them UN soldiers( the UN post was in contact
with the Israelis 6 times before they were killed)
IMO the real axis of Evil is the US,Britain,Israel

pete

27/07/2006, 11:20 AM

Israel could care less what Ireland thinks. The only country they would possibly listen to is the USA & thats not guaranteed.

paul_oshea

27/07/2006, 11:42 AM

Efforts to reach a statement failed yesterday after the United States was reported to have rejected any criticism of the Israeli operation.

Ok, I dont mean this in a bad way honestly, but what really ****ess me off here, is the hypocrisy of the US, had one of its own (UN) citizens been killed in this strike, things would be completely different. Im not saying I would have liked to have seen an american getting killed, not at all, but it would be *more* than interesting to see if one had, how the US would have reacted then. its fairly obvious the israelis dont want a UN presence in lebanon, so the UN seeing what they are doing and are trying to scaremonger them out of lebanon so they can get on with their genocide without any info being filtered out to the rest of the world. and thats simply what it is......genocide that is....

As I say that australia have withdrawn their 12 citizens from the UN in that area. who else to follow suit? need I say more.

What I really want to know, and I know most of it already, but why is it the US have an undying support for Israel and will therefore never criticise said (illegal)state.

Dodge

27/07/2006, 11:51 AM

Israel could care less what Ireland thinks. The only country they would possibly listen to is the USA & thats not guaranteed.
Tommy Tirnan does a decent skit on this.. "**** off! *** off! *** off!!!"

Saint Tom

27/07/2006, 9:31 PM

paul_oshea

28/07/2006, 9:37 AM

the israelis are getting it a lot tougher than they expected in border infantry combat

ya hopefully that continues.

Tom, btw I reckon, and go to far as to say, that the israelis had advised the US to ensure none of its UN personnel were there at the time of that bombing. Cos the israelis had been warned on 6 different occassions they were targeting UN positions.

bennocelt

29/07/2006, 9:42 AM

Paul define "illegal state"? the borders of Israel (excluding the occupied territories that is) are internationally recognised. The state may be breaking aspects of international law but the state itself is not illegal. terminology along those lines is extremely loose and dangerous.

I deplore the killing of the UN officials, and it does reflect very badly. I dont think it was accidental, and had a certain level of intent. the israelis are getting it a lot tougher than they expected in border infantry combat

illegal? a lot of arab nations would probably like to agrre with paul
also isnt the northern ireland partionist border officially recognised as well:eek:
wonder is it possible to get any lebanon flags for the trip to germany.....solidarity and all that?

pete

29/07/2006, 10:17 AM

I have a lot of sympathy for Israels battles with terrorists but they have gone too far this time. Deliberate targetting of UN observers & TV crews shows what they probably doing when the media not watching. Where is the UN now that Israel is invading Lebanon - didn't they attack Iraq because did the same thing in Kuwait, same for Serbia into Kosovo.

Blair has lost any remaining respect & i wonder how this affecting his opinion polls in the UK.

:(

Saint Tom

29/07/2006, 11:10 AM

bennocelt

29/07/2006, 12:45 PM

politics and sport should not mix, so I would not be keen on seeing lebanon flags flown in Stuttgart. People forget very easily the welcome that we got in tel Aviv last year, and the "Protests" at lansdowne for the return game were disgusting.

as for reference to the north, this situation is incomparable

if i want to wave a plaestine/leb flag its my right to do so, i feel an affinity with the palestinian situation....i have no love for israel
i wouldnt protest or anything like that but i would like to show soldiarity

why is the ref to the north incomparable.....i was talking about your idea of what a border "officially" is and isnt
in my opinion i dont recognise "northern ireland" or israel

pete

29/07/2006, 1:24 PM

if i want to wave a plaestine/leb flag its my right to do so, i feel an affinity with the palestinian situation....i have no love for israel
i wouldnt protest or anything like that but i would like to show soldiarity

If you wanted to protest outside the group fair enough. Protesting inside stadiums is childish & unfair. Too many morons to jump on the bandwagon.

Saint Tom

30/07/2006, 10:30 AM

pete

30/07/2006, 12:06 PM

More than 40 civilians, including 20 children, have been killed in a town in southern Lebanon in the deadliest Israeli strike of the conflict.

Israel say they were targetting Hizbollah based on intelligence but obviously that "intelligence" didn't tell them anything about civilians, that is if they even cared.

:(

bennocelt

30/07/2006, 6:13 PM

so when you dont recognise Israel, as you say, are you of the opinion that it should not exist?

This situation is totally incomparable to the north ( major clash of world religions, international repercussions, western interests v islamic fundamentalism, number of people affected, number of victims, history going back thousands of years)

yeah it shouldnt exist........

im not comparing it to norn iron.(even though thre are simalarities with the way the jews treat the palestinians and the british government in the past).....just pointing out that your point about official borders is not true
just casue it says it in your geography book doesnt mean diddly squat..