Muppet Fenlon to play for a draw with 4-5-1 again

[Shelsman]

Can you believe it! I read in the 'Mirror' today that Fenlon will be playing

4-5-1

in the second ( HOME! ) leg against Vetra on Saturday.

HAS HE LEARNT NOTHING!?!?!

If we lose this game then he should definitely go. If I were in Dublin I'd be tempted NOT to go to the game. The thought of seeing Shels hammer the ball up to a lone striker for 90mins sickens me.
All this achieves is giving the ball straight to the opposition and then the team lives on a wing and a prayer, hoping the opposition don't score while we chase them round trying to get the ball back again - only to give it away again :mad: seconds later.

In European ( if not all ) soccer, possession is everything.

Surely the stlye in which we beat Glentoran home and away by playing two up front is proof that the players we have can play proper football?????

[Poor Student]

If we lose this game then he should definitely go.

He is owed a lot of money, has a lengthy contract and you're short on cash. He's going nowhere unless he chooses. I agree with you though, his European tactics are tiresome, repetitive and negative.

[higgins]

At least he has European tactics :cool:

[Poor Student]

At least he has European tactics :cool:

Higgins, do you not want to have any proper debate on his European tactics? Getting into Europe doesn't mean the rest of us can't observe your tactics.:rolleyes:

[LeixlipRed]

Can you believe it! I read in the 'Mirror' today that Fenlon will be playing


No I can't believe it. The Mirror that is. Wait until the game is over and you've actually seen what tactics he employs. And Fenlon is going nowhere

[Sniffer]

Wouldn't surprise me in the least, this is classic Fenlon, the most fear addled manager in the league. Everyone says he has the best squad yet every time Shels secure a lead they retreat into their Shel, inevitably until they concede. Then they attack and show veryone what they are capable of, it must drive the players nutsy as well, constantly being kept on a leash.

[higgins]

Ok lets Debate it ....

Person A: I think 4-5-1 is boring too and would go 4-4-2

Person B: But he has had the leagues best ever results with 4-5-1

Person A: Your right but I think these are weak enough to get at with 4-4-2

Person B: But if its not broke dont try fix it

Person A: But other then Deportivo has the 4-5-1 really worked? I mean it was 4-4-2 when we came from two down and drew with Lille.

Person B: Whos to tell what score it may have been if we went at them from the start, it could have been another joke of an EL performance.

Person A: True but its a one trick pony and against the good sides wont be good enough to beat them over two legs, they adapt same as Lille did nad we were lucky it wasnt 7-0 over there.

Person B: So you think a 4-4-2 will beat a good side!

Person A: No Im not saying that but surely you have to vary your tactics.

Person B: Well Im not the manager who has masterminded the leagues best european result am I!!! and dont call me surely!!

[Risteard]

Person B sounds like a dope.

[thejollyrodger]

4 -0 with 4-5-1... must have worked

[Anto McC]

He is owed a lot of money, has a lengthy contract and you're short on cash. He's going nowhere unless he chooses. I agree with you though, his European tactics are tiresome, repetitive and negative.

Have you got any evidence whatsoever to back up all these claims you are making?

[Poor Student]

Have you got any evidence whatsoever to back up all these claims you are making?

Lengthy contract, well that's public knowledge. You gave him 5 or 6 years recently. Owed money, seems to be common knowledge. Unable to pay players wages on time and the printers seems to hint you're short of cash or certainly the kind of cash to pay off such a long contract.

[Raheny Red]

4 -0 with 4-5-1... must have worked

Well, when they were down to 9 Nutsy brought Jayo on for Creepy, this meant a 3-5-2 formation but at times it seemed more like a 5-3-2 :rolleyes: :eek:

[EnDai]

He brought on Gary Deegan (U21 midfielder) who played wide left, and Ollie Cahill pushed back to left back. So it was a standard 4-4-2 then.

:eek: @ Alan Reynolds trying to score from 25/30 yards! :D

[Anto McC]

Lengthy contract, well that's public knowledge. You gave him 5 or 6 years recently. Owed money, seems to be common knowledge. Unable to pay players wages on time and the printers seems to hint you're short of cash or certainly the kind of cash to pay off such a long contract.

Have you got any actual evidence,or is it all just hear say or "common knowledge" as you like to refer to it as?

[Drumcondra Red]

No evidence whatsoever, just listening to the usual shyte spouted on by probably Boez fans...

[Poor Student]

No evidence whatsoever, just listening to the usual shyte spouted on by probably Boez fans...

Sure, that's it, the Bohs fans made it all up.

[Rory H]

top of the league,in the next round of the intertoto the league and the fai cup and the fans want him sacked??

[higgins]

Who wants him sacked :) ....

as you said our season is going very very well*

League
Intertoto
FAI Cup
League Cup



* apart from the players walking out and ollie running off with the cash and all our team signing for drogheda next week. :D

[A face]

Person B sounds like a dope.

Hah ah !! :p

[Shelsman]

top of the league,in the next round of the intertoto the league and the fai cup and the fans want him sacked??

I think the big question is....... given the same squad and resources, would another manager do better? Maybe, maybe not. My big issue is that when we go to play bigger clubs in Europe that we chicken out and play 4-5-1 long ball, which at best might get us a draw, but will definitely be horrendous and heart breaking to sit through. Eoin Hand is very critical of this approach too -and he would know a thing or two.

[higgins]

You think Collins had better results....
I doubt it,

2006
Shels v FK Vetra 4-0 1-0

2005
Shels v Steaua 0-0 1-4
Shels v Glentoran 4-1 2-1

2004
Shels v Lille 2-2 0-2
Shels v Deportivo 0-0 0-3
Shels v Hajduk 2-0 2-3
Shels v KR 0-0 2-2

[pineapple stu]

Think you missed a year there higgins... ;)

2003
Shels v Hibernians 0-1 1-1

[higgins]

Think you missed a year there higgins... ;)

2003
Shels v Hibernians 0-1 1-1

Wrong !

2003
Shels v Olimpija Ljubljana 2-3 0-1

Thread was about the 4-5-1 system. a system Fenlon decided to go for mainly over the last 2 or 3 seasons.
Anyway bringing up the Hibs result doesnt go against the other results being better than the plastering idiots...

[Shelsman]

No I can't believe it. The Mirror that is. Wait until the game is over and you've actually seen what tactics he employs. And Fenlon is going nowhere

Well, he confirmed he would use 4-5-1 in a article in 'The Irish Sun' today DESPITE winning 3-0 against St Pat's in what he described as one of the clubs best performances in a long time where he played Jason Byrne and Crowe up front!

Why can't we play to our strengths!?!?

I was at the Bohs vs Odense match ( probably 10 years ago ) and the Bohs manager played 5-4-1, which the team wasn't used to. Bohs completely surrendered possession to Odense in that one striker was never going to take the ball off / pressure 4 defenders, meanwhile the Bohs extra centreback was a combination of a spectator and a hindrance to the other two centrebacks. Fenlon is about the make the same mistake ( surrendering possession ). Hence my original comments 'Has he learnt nothing??????????' ( from Shels previous experiences ) :mad:

[higgins]

A couple of points

Do you know what system Odense play ?

and

Do you think fenlon would leave it at 4-5-1 if it doesnt work?

He gives a lot of respect to the opponent regardless of who they are. Somewhere along the way if the system is not working I can see him changing it but we have a very good record and to change it now might be wrong.

You cant really say the players are new to the european system he plays. Most of them are well used to it by now.

A lot of teams in europe go away from home and adapt this 4-5-1 system. Especially with the first leg being away from home, theres a lot of football to be played in two legs. Some of the Champions League regulars are as defensive as Fenlon is away from home.

No use going for it from the first minute and losing by two or three because he under estimated them.

One further point!
4-5-1 can be attacking or defensive... The numbers dont have a lot to do with it really.

Take FK Vetra,
Away we were basically playing 1 up front with everyone else sticking to their positions and giving nothing away, Defensive.
Home we had plenty running from midfield and getting in behind them and not afraid to go and attack, Attacking.

We beat Pats 3-0 at home we are playing OB Odense away.
Two different games

[Poor Student]

Wrong !

2003
Shels v Olimpija Ljubljana 2-3 0-1



The Olimpija manager said Shels were the worst team he had ever seen.;)

[higgins]

The Olimpija manager said Shels were the worst team he had ever seen.;)

Where are Olimpija now :cool:

[Poor Student]

Where are Olimpija now :cool:

Dead. They had already lost all their best players by the time they played you. They spent a lot more money on big name players and a big squad than they were taking in. Hmmmm.

[Drumcondra Red]

Very vocal on the subject there poor student, not having any european exploits of your own I suppose would force you to talk absolute crap here, we're still in europe, fai cup, league cup and top of the league, I'm a lot happier here then I would be out belfield way, thats for sure...

[higgins]

Dead. They had already lost all their best players by the time they played you. They spent a lot more money on big name players and a big squad than they were taking in. Hmmmm.

How many times can you be wrong in one thread.
They had not lost all their best players by the time they played us....

They still are one of the best european teams I have seen come to Tolka. We went out chasing the game from the start which was a little silly but they did give us a lesson that Deportivo Lille and Steaua didnt. Which kind of brings us back to the original point of is 4-5-1 or 4-4-2 the answer?

[Poor Student]

Very vocal on the subject there poor student, not having any european exploits of your own I suppose would force you to talk absolute crap here, we're still in europe, fai cup, league cup and top of the league, I'm a lot happier here then I would be out belfield way, thats for sure...

I'm only telling you what Besirovic said.

We've had our own forays into Europe, including being very close to putting out the eventual winners of the tournament.

[Poor Student]

They had not lost all their best players by the time they played us....


How would you know?

[higgins]

Because at the time I had looked into what sort of team they were adn although they had sold a couple of players they still had a strong squad and were no walkover (as the result shows)...

Suppose you can back up your original statement of them selling their best players?

[Poor Student]

Try Robert Prosinecki and Miran Pavlin for two. Prosinecki was the only thing they had going for them the previous season. He single handedly won them the cup. Scored a sublime goal against Publikum in the final in the away leg.

Pavlin was an experienced international who played in the major international championships for Slovenia.

I didn't say they sold anyone. Prosinecki left because they weren't paying him.

[higgins]

he was also about 67!

[Poor Student]

he was also about 67!

You wouldn't believe how well he could control a game despite not being able to move an inch. I've seen him even more recently in a charity match of Yugoslav greats v Slovenian WC 2002 team and he was still the star of the show, scoring the winner.

[Shelsman]

Do you know what system Odense play ?

No. Fair point. Does Fenlon? What system do they have to play for us to have an advantage at 4-5-1? 3-5-2 ?


Do you think fenlon would leave it at 4-5-1 if it doesnt work?

Quite possibly. Besides, trying to retrieve a situation with limited time remaining doesn't always work and if anything you can end up giving away more goals if you chase the game too much and are hit on the break. Better to have a good balance from the start.


we have a very good record and to change it now might be wrong.

Are you sure it's such a good record? Aren't the majority of the good results a draw?


You cant really say the players are new to the european system he plays. Most of them are well used to it by now.

Fair enough. So we're stuck in our ways then? Besides, I was talking about Bohs at the time and didn't mean to say this was the case for Shels.


A lot of teams in europe go away from home and adapt this 4-5-1 system. Especially with the first leg being away from home, theres a lot of football to be played in two legs. Some of the Champions League regulars are as defensive as Fenlon is away from home.

Fair point. My overall point is that it is BRUTAL to watch. It's a great joy for me to watch Shels in Europe, but when they play 4-5-1 longball it breaks my heart. I doubt the other european teams you mention boot the ball up to the lone striker as soon as they get it? In the close confines of Tolka ( and any other small pitches ) players don't get the same time on the ball.


No use going for it from the first minute and losing by two or three because he under estimated them.

Bit of a presumption -that we'd always lose heavily if we attack from the start? Also a presumption that we're always the weaker team.
A lot of managers would say that attack is the best defence -the opposition aren't likely to score if they don't have the ball or if the majority of the play is in their half.
Besides, we have to score at some stage to go through ( unless you're hoping for a win on penalties ) and sooner we score an AWAY goal than a home goal.

[higgins]

I dont like the hoof to nobody football either. The games against steaua were rubbish as we cleared our lines everytime we got the ball. I was trying to point out that a 4-5-1 can be attacking or defensive and the numbers are not the main issue.

At the start of a game in europe both teams try to suss each other out and I think the 4-5-1 is the best way to do this. I would agree that Fenlon is sometimes slow (or appears to be) to change things around and he doesnt go for the killer goal when we are on top but I have to point out that we have nearly always been the weaker team.

I do think draws are good results especially when the teams are Lille, Steaua and deportivo. We have been punching above our weight in europe now for a few seasons and although it has been hard to watch at times we have got results against the better sides more often than not.

4-5-1 is ok away from home in my opinion but I would agree that the 4-4-2 should not be ignored completely. Playing the ball to players feet and trying to keep possession is key, the kick and rush out tactics wont work even if you played a 4-3-3!

Im not the biggest fan of the tactics either but then I think about what has happened in the past when we went for games. Like it or not we are playing seeded sides nearly every round and are always the weaker side.

[pineapple stu]

Very vocal on the subject there poor student, not having any european exploits of your own I suppose would force you to talk absolute crap here
:rolleyes: Like we've never been in Europe.


I'm a lot happier here then I would be out belfield way, thats for sure...
Funny that. I'm a lot happier here than I would be out Tolka way, that's for sure. Probably all the stuff going around about liquidations, unpaid bills, a ground sold with no solid plans for a new one...

[CollegeTillIDie]

:rolleyes: Like we've never been in Europe.

Funny that. I'm a lot happier here than I would be out Tolka way, that's for sure. Probably all the stuff going around about liquidations, unpaid bills, a ground sold with no solid plans for a new one...

UCD are possibly the only EL/LOI team never to have had an embarrassing display in Europe. 1984/85 European Cup Winners Cup lost 0-1 to eventual winners Everton on aggregate. 2000/01 Intertoto Cup lost on away goals to Bulgarian Opposition who in later years, merged with a Bigger club and won their League.

[Shelsman]

UCD are possibly the only EL/LOI team never to have had an embarrassing display in Europe. 1984/85 European Cup Winners Cup lost 0-1 to eventual winners Everton on aggregate. 2000/01 Intertoto Cup lost on away goals to Bulgarian Opposition who in later years, merged with a Bigger club and won their League.

Probably a lot to do with the fact that you only ever play in europe once every 20 years or so! :rolleyes: Try playing there every season, no scratch that, try qualifying for Europe every season ! :D

[higgins]

:rolleyes: Like we've never been in Europe.


Funny that. I'm a lot happier here than I would be out Tolka way, that's for sure. Probably all the stuff going around about liquidations, unpaid bills, a ground sold with no solid plans for a new one...


More rubbish Stu !!

Liquidations ???
Unpaid Bills ???
Ground sold with no solid plans ???

Care to let us Shels fans in on whats happening ;)

[Anto McC]

Funny that. I'm a lot happier here than I would be out Tolka way, that's for sure. Probably all the stuff going around about liquidations, unpaid bills, a ground sold with no solid plans for a new one...

Where is the evidence,where is the proof?

Higgins touched on this before,UCD are an average club and will never be anything else but an average club,now i dont know if it's this that has you making wild accusations about another club,without any actual proof or not but could you please get over your jealousy towards Shels!

[CollegeTillIDie]

Not jealous of your lot having owed the Revenue Commissioners €300,000 earlier this year at all lads ;)

[Student Mullet]

Keep it on topic lads.

[Anto McC]

Not jealous of your lot having owed the Revenue Commissioners €300,000 earlier this year at all lads ;)

And it was paid,there's evidence to back it up and all!!

Now back to Pineapple Stu's unsubstantiated claims,have you got any evidence?

[pineapple stu]

And it was paid,there's evidence to back it up and all!!

Now back to Pineapple Stu's unsubstantiated claims,have you got any evidence?
Liquidation - there was a winding-up order issued against youz. Suorce - the papers. (Doesn't matter that it ultimately was withdrawn; we haven't had any)
Unpaid bills - not paying tax (proven). Not paying the printers - nobody's denying it. Your accounts' Auditors' Report says it can't be sure of what bills you've paid and what bills you haven't because the accounting system is appalling in there.
Ground sold - mentioned in the papers once or twice. It's quite clearly been sold - you may prove otherwise if you wish. No solid plans - there's a new "solid plan" every time the previous one falls through - Donabate, Dalymount, Tallaght, now Santry...


UCD are an average club and will never be anything else but an average club
If the Revenue keep doing the FAI's job and forcing teams to cop onto themselves financially, you could well see UCD start to make progress in the league. Not our fault that teams left right and centre are spending ridiculous amounts of money they don't have while we keep to a proper budget.

[CuanaD]

Back on topic - I'm looking forward to this game - it'll be tough & I can see wht Fenlon would opt for the 4-5-1 again (not necessarly agree with it, but it has worked before - its about progressing, not playing beautiful football)
according to this - http://www.shelbournefc.ie/news.php?id=389 - its a positive approach (?)


I just hope they win through to the next round - don't care about the quality of performance

[CuanaD]

Oh, official updates will be here:
http://www.shelbournefc.ie/matchzone/matchzone.php?matchid=9180

[higgins]

Liquidation - there was a winding-up order issued against youz. Suorce - the papers. (Doesn't matter that it ultimately was withdrawn; we haven't had any)


Winding up order doesn’t mean it was liquidation stu ???
Stop adding to the trash that goes around.
Shels owed the tax man 300K, they wanted the money, they were paid the money. Not ideal but it wasn’t liquidation



Unpaid bills - not paying tax (proven). Not paying the printers - nobody's denying it. Your accounts' Auditors' Report says it can't be sure of what bills you've paid and what bills you haven't because the accounting system is appalling in there.


We owed the tax man money and it was paid and to use your own words, PROVEN!!
All Shels bills are paid eventually!
Do we have bills yes of course and the printers bill is one of them but the bill will be paid. That how business works, you ask for a service they provide it and then you get the bill and you pay it. Would be great to have every cent up front like UCD but that’s not always possible due to the erratic nature of a football clubs income. I suppose with gates so low out in Belfield its easy for you to budget but a large part of Shels cash flow is determined through gates from home games.

In your fairyland idea of a well run club I'm sure this is hard to understand.




Ground sold - mentioned in the papers once or twice. It's quite clearly been sold - you may prove otherwise if you wish. No solid plans - there's a new "solid plan" every time the previous one falls through - Donabate, Dalymount, Tallaght, now Santry...


The plan is that we will play our games in Tolka until we get another ground???
What were you expecting!
That nothing is said about possible grounds until its 100% done and dusted? Sure you would be on here ranting about Ollie and his lack of info and how shels fans don’t care about this an that if nothing was said while we search for a new ground.



If the Revenue keep doing the FAI's job and forcing teams to cop onto themselves financially, you could well see UCD start to make progress in the league. Not our fault that teams left right and centre are spending ridiculous amounts of money they don't have while we keep to a proper budget.


UCD will never make progress in the league. Your small time with a small time attitude and you have no intention of doing anything that might progress you or the league in which you play! The most excitement you lot get is complaining about the affairs of the leagues bigger clubs.

Spending money we don’t have??
ALL shels bills to date have been paid!!!
That to me says we do have the money we spend…. It might not be spent as wisely as you would like but facts are it is money we have

Finally Stu, you have decided in your infinite wisdom to ignore previous threads on these topics when I have you backed into a corner. These items have been discussed countless times and you always start with the same nonsense. I fill you in on the facts and then you ignore the thread and start lies on another thread??? Is there something wrong with you that you return to the start every time ??? I don’t understand why things you learn one day are not carried into the next. I've no idea what your agenda is but it probably stems from the fact nothing worth posting about happens at your club! If you put half the time into UCD as you do posting about Shels your club might be better off.