Champions League Final [Archive] - Page 3

NeilMcD

18/05/2006, 1:42 PM

Pete the commentary delay is different to the delay that I am talking about.

The digital signal whether it be RTE or Sky that you are watching is about 5 seconds behind the normal signal on your TV through the aerial or through piped TV. So if I watch RTE through my tv and swtich to RTE on the Digital there will be about a 5 second difference. In addition to that RTE also have their commentary out of sync .

Donegalcelt

18/05/2006, 1:53 PM

On the punditry last night, the bar I was in (Fitzsimon's in Temple Bar) had Sky Sports on and all Andy Gray kept harping on (and on, and on, and..) for the entire first half was how "the referee has ruined this as a spectacle by not allowing the goal". Not mentioning any of the play, or how the game was progressing. Oh, and for those who watched the build up on Sky Sports, there were 20 other players involved in the game, not just Ronaldinho and Henry

Cannot agree more. I think the first time they mentioned Eto'o, Cesc or whoever was when the game started. Andy Gray always takes the opposite opinion to the awarded decision. He moaned about not allowing the goal and sending Lehmann off. Let's face it, if you want to stop someone scoring a goal then you drag them down and face the consequences. That's what happened. I know that it's very difficult for a 'keeper to stop after committing themselves and maybe that is worth looking into. But as well as catching Eto'o, Lehman clearer hooked his ankle to make doubley sure

Donegalcelt

18/05/2006, 2:06 PM

wws

18/05/2006, 2:17 PM

speed of light and sound eh?!?!

they haven't invented a way to beam 'live' coverage into peoples living rooms as of yet

you'll always get delays of varying amounts

try go to fraziers on champions league night - every second telly is beaming back at a different time! causes chaos!

razor

18/05/2006, 2:28 PM

I'm afraid not, Its quite clear in the replay that Lehman grabbed his foot after missing the ball. Eto'o was away had he not done that.I doubt very much if Eto'o would have stayed on his feet even if Lehmann did not grab his foot.

Risteard

18/05/2006, 2:31 PM

Are you saying you don't think it was a red card offence?

Stuttgart88

18/05/2006, 2:43 PM

I've seen it a few times replayed on Sky News in last few minutes and I think Lehmann paid the price for a poor starting position. Couldn't see it properly - my desk TV is only about 3 inches by 2 inches!

If he was further back Eto would have had far more work to do to beat him. Against that though, Eto is very quick. Lehmann was quick out and would have beaten slower players to the ball. The Arsenal back four must take a share of the blame too as they were picked open very easily (OK, brilliantly) by being so square. I heard it said last night that Cole was the one who played him on but have yet to see it properly since.

I still think it was initially just a misjudgment and a red card is hard to argue with.

Dodge

18/05/2006, 2:55 PM

It was definitely Cole who kept him onside (by about 4/5 yards)

Roadend

18/05/2006, 3:18 PM

I doubt very much if Eto'o would have stayed on his feet even if Lehmann did not grab his foot.

You're right, I couldn't see him wanting to score a goal in the CL final, which he would clearly have done had Lehman not caught his ankle.

dfx-

18/05/2006, 3:19 PM

I doubt very much if Eto'o would have stayed on his feet even if Lehmann did not grab his foot.

Whether Eto'o would've dived or not is irrelevant and extremely speculative. Lehmann caught him. He deserved to go. Simple.

Whether people are arguing over and over about whether advantage should've been played, again is extremely speculative. A cyclical argument over and over again.

Lehmann committed a red card offence. Eto'o was in control of the ball, running towards goal, no defensive cover. Whether Giuly put the ball in or not, Lehmann still should've been sent off.

For those like ITV who think their lovely game was spoiled, tough. You can't avoid sending players off for red card offences just so as people can enjoy a nice game. How about if Lehmann punched Eto'o, but Giuly scored? Was it just because he *only* caught his foot that makes it ok to show just a yellow?

I wonder if anyone saw the Eboue 'tackle' on Van Bronckhorst in the first half which he only got booked for? He must have caught the Essien disease.:D

Stuttgart88

18/05/2006, 3:37 PM

The referee has just been interviewed on TV and very magnanimously said that in hindsight he'd preferred to have waited - he'd have awarded the goal & booked Lehmann.

Again, I have to draw comparison to the Petr Cech foul in last year's semi final at Anfield. His was actually a high, dangerous challenge but in my opinion a yellow card and the concession of a goal was punishment enough. I think the game's gone red card mad these days. It used to be a shameful event, now red cards are two to a penny.

I think the ref was wrong to book Henry, but the Barcelona player made it look like a foul with the way he fell and it's hard to fault the ref in those circumstances. I though the ref was very honest & courageous facing the cameras. God help any referee that gives a big decision against an English team these days. I do think he could have protected Henry better but that's about my only criticism of him.

drinkfeckarse

18/05/2006, 3:58 PM

Jeez I'm bored of this already.....

He got sent off, we've all got our opinions of it. Now what's the odds on Barca winning again next year? :)

geysir

18/05/2006, 5:08 PM

Jeez I'm bored of this already.....

He got sent off, we've all got our opinions of it. Now what's the odds on Barca winning again next year? :)
You can get 9/4 on the CL winner being a Spanish club.

John83

18/05/2006, 5:39 PM

speed of light and sound eh?!?!
It has very little to do with that. It's not like RTE have a gigantic loudspeaker in Paris, broadcasting directly. :p

Karlos

18/05/2006, 10:25 PM

- With regards Henrys comments on the Ref. I think Karlos said they where bang on the nail. "The ref should have been wearing a Barcelona shirt"?? Really? I have to disagree, the ref had an average game. Lehmanns indiscipline, Henrys poor finishing were well above the ref in terms of who should take the blame for Arsenals defeat- if anything the ref gave them a helping hand on the key decisions.

I haven't checked back but I think I said said his comments on the performance of Eto'o and Ronaldinho were spot on. I do agree however with Henry's comments on the referee's actual performance (maybe not the manner he said them though). poor poor quality for a major final. Helping hand or not on some issues, the ref got so many things wrong that would have changed the game. The sending off was about the only thing he got right and had the game finished 1-0 to Arsenal, I'm sure there would be plently here saying he actually got that wrong too :)

Closed Account 2

18/05/2006, 10:25 PM

Now what's the odds on Barca winning again next year? :)

Can't see it happening. Larsson (a very underrated player who is off this summer) got them out of jail last night. His brilliant passes were the only thing that un-did Arsenal. Without him Barca looked ordinary and Arsenal, packing the midfield, had many chances on the break. Despite having a man advantage, and probably man for man a better team than Arsenal they were outplayed for much of the game by a team who got it tactically very right.

Barca are far from invincable, Atletico totally outfoxed them twice this season.

And when I was in the Da Luz on the 28th March, I saw Benfica give them a lashing too (indeed it was only the denial of a clear handball that saw Benfica escape with a draw).

They are a good side, but a decent manager, with a fairly good squad, can come up with a plan to smother them.

Karlos

18/05/2006, 10:33 PM

If Shay Given had of done it I would have been very angry with him and I would have blamed him for the incident rather than blame the ref. It seems that players blame refs rather than fellow players. Thats why the comparison with Roy Keane earlier was not accurate as i think rightly or wrongly Keane blames his own players and himself for mistakes made in games rather than the referees. This is after the game I must say, there is nobody better at "talking" to the ref during a game than keane.

But Neil, nobody including the Arsenal players are blaming the ref for the sending off. I don't how many times I have to say it, but he got it right.

It's the 101 other incidents that shaped the game that is the issue. The constant refusal to book and to send off, if he was to interpret the laws as he did with the Lehmann incident, did shape the game. A tackle from behind under the current laws is a red card. I don't agree with it but it's there in black & white for anyone to see. :)

Karlos

18/05/2006, 10:45 PM

Oh by the way Arsenal now have the lovely record of losing in all 3 European Finals, Champions Cup, Cup Winnners Cup and Uefa Cup.
.

Spoken like a true Spurs fan.....opps wait, you jumped off that ship a week ago after Wenger poisioned them (or so the conspiracy goes!!) (i'm joking, no need for a a factual retort!) :)

Of course these are the type of facts that keep the intelligent contributors on spursweb occupied when all they can remember about the last major final they were in was that they lost to Blackburn Rovers and it was in February (you know, february, when all the MAJOR finals are played!) :D :)

Risteard

19/05/2006, 1:03 AM

I think Barca will be a force over the next five years, maybe winning another one or even two big ears in that time.
Messi is a long way from reaching fruition and Ronaldinho, Xavi and Eto'o will hit their prime over the next few years. That's 4 World Class players, they've a good manager imo and if they can keep a good quality around those 4, they could be a real team to remember.

geysir

19/05/2006, 2:05 AM

And when I was in the Da Luz on the 28th March, I saw Benfica give them a lashing too (indeed it was only the denial of a clear handball that saw Benfica escape with a draw).
Isn't that the game where Barca had 60% of the possession and missed a string of golden chances which miraculously left Benfica with a chance to grab a winner in the last minutes. Some escape.

Marked Man

19/05/2006, 2:49 AM

It's the 101 other incidents that shaped the game that is the issue. The constant refusal to book and to send off, if he was to interpret the laws as he did with the Lehmann incident, did shape the game. :)

You're right, Eboue should have been sent off-- twice. Can't believe the ref let that go.

Karlos

19/05/2006, 4:14 AM

You're right, Eboue should have been sent off-- twice. Can't believe the ref let that go.

Eboue should have gone, no doubt. Puyol & Marquez should have also under the current laws of the game. I can't beleive the ref missed that and I'm sure you can't either. Even if the referee takes the easy option out, you'd expect a booking at the very least. Despite what some people are suggesting, nobody will convince me that playing against Henry on a booking for over 60 minutes isn't a completly different scenario than playing against him without one.

I'm all for referee's being regimental & applying the letter of the law as you so obviously are too.......as long as they apply it for everyone of course. That's what I openly hoped for on this very thread before the game started and sadly that wasn't what we got in my opinion. Lehmann issue was spot on, everything else including the free awarded to Asrenal before the goal, shocking.

There's no sour grapes towards Barca. Beating Arsenal, Chelsea & Milan makes them worthy champions.

Karlos

19/05/2006, 4:42 AM

Also interesting. Jens Lehmann didn't concede a goal in the Champions League all season. Didn't play v Ajax or Thun. Still, not much consolation. Found it hard to believe that he's also the first ever sending off in the final

An interesting issue alright. Lehmann actually been superb all season both in Europe & the League. I'd him nominated as Arsenal's Player of the Year by January such where the nature of his performances. Sad way to end such a great run but he had to go. He's been very gracious in admitting that himself. :)

As a side point, I would also like to credit the whole defence for having the longest defensive record in European Cup history. Truely a huge feat for a defence so often critiscised.

LFC in Exile

19/05/2006, 7:44 AM

Eboue should have gone, no doubt. Puyol & Marquez should have also under the current laws of the game. I can't beleive the ref missed that and I'm sure you can't either.

So the problem is not sending Lehman off it is not sending 3 other players off as well. 9 v 9 and I wonder whether the referee would have been criticised then for ruining the game 'as a spectacle'. :)

LFC in Exile

19/05/2006, 7:56 AM

By the way the laws state a player is sent off if he (among other things):

4. denies the opposing team a goal or an obvious goalscoring opportunity
by deliberately handling the ball (this does not apply to a
goalkeeper within his own penalty area)
5. denies an obvious goalscoring opportunity to an opponent moving
towards the player�s goal by an offence punishable by a free kick
or a penalty kick

Note it says opponent, and not team as in number 4. Lehman denied Eto'o an obvious goalscoring opportunity. Even if play had been allowed to run on (as it should have been) and Giuly scored, Lehman still had to walk.

The reaction of the tv commentators about the referee ruining the game is ridiculous. It is not the referee's job to make the game entertaining (using this logic players like Ronaldinho should be exempt from ever being sent off), it is his or her job to enforce the rules.

Arsenal also moaning about the offside equaliser. I think Eto'o was probably offisde when Larsson touched the ball. But from the assistant referee's view it was impossible to know if Larsson touched it. Eto'o was onside when the ball was played through and Larsson's touch only slightly changed the direction of the ball. I didn't know he had touched it until I saw the replay. So, a bit of common sense must prevail there.

There is a lot of blame put on the ref for being inconsistent - and overall he had a poor game - but the players must also take a lot of blame. The amount of diving and similar cheating was crazy (and it led to Arsenal's goal). Henry got booked because of Bommel's reaction. It was not an easy game to ref IMO.

Stuttgart88

19/05/2006, 8:13 AM

I actually think he was right not to send Eboue off. A yellow and a strong warning were what were warranted in the context of the moment. The rule book doesn't legislate for context, yet all the good referees get acclaim for their handling of certain situations. So much of a referee's performance depends on subjective decision-making. I also agree totally that Van Bommel's(?) reaction to Henry's tackle made it very difficult for the ref.

Lehmann's comment about two very good sides playing at a far higher tempo than the games is played in Norway was fair, but more blame should be apportioned UEFA's way for the appointment. The referee was very fair in his post-match comments and I commend him for it. Arsenal's only genuine complaint about Eto's goal should be that it'd usually be given offside, wrongly, but that's the way it usually works. Puyol & Marquez should have been booked & I think that did have some effect. That IS a genuine complaint.

I thought Arsenal were great on the night, but I'd like to see Arsenal being big enough to acknowledge that their own failings (missed chances, Eboue failing to pick up Eto, goalie being beaten twice at near post, Lehmann's error of judgment) were the principal reasons for losing the final. Just like the famous defeat at Old Trafford where Graham Poll had an absolute shocker of a game allowing the Neville brothers and Van Nistelrooy to kick lumps out of Arsenal without punishment and missing Rooney's dive, Arsenal ignored the failings on their own doorstep - they lost the game because despite having overcome Poll's lenient tolerance of MUFC's tactics, their passing & ball retention went to pot completely in the 15 mins before MUFC scored, Vieira & Campbell being most culpable. If Arsenal just move on & get on with it they'll have a lot more respect from neutrals.

OwlsFan

19/05/2006, 9:11 AM

I thought Henry's comments about Ronaldinho were interesting - hardly the comments of someone on his way to Barca. Strangely, if Arsenal had won I'd say he would definitely have left the club. Now he has unfinished business and there's a greater possibility of him staying.

Looks as if I was correct and that they'll be announcing today that he'll be signing on again for a few more years for the Gooners.

geysir

19/05/2006, 9:42 AM

I am a bit fed up with all the critique of the referee. Up to the present day its still an exception that a player gets booked for diving. No referee would have booked Eboue (on one yellow) EVEN if they saw clearly that he dived.
The linesman flagged. It appeared an obvious enough foul.
But still Arsenal were left with the hard work to get the goal, with a brilliantly executed free kick/header

Dodge

19/05/2006, 9:51 AM

It appeared an obvious dive to me...

Either way it doesn't really matter. Had to laugh at poor little Thierry moaning about centre halves treating him roughly. Thats their job...

Stuttgart88

19/05/2006, 9:52 AM

with a brilliantly executed free kick/header a relative rarity for Arsenal, yet something Chelsea does as a matter of course.

dfx-

19/05/2006, 10:03 AM

Barca are far from invincable, Atletico totally outfoxed them twice this season.

One team beat them twice. Atletico are quite a poor team. So why couldn't anyone else.....?

They are a good side, but a decent manager, with a fairly good squad, can come up with a plan to smother them.

*attempts to change the record again*

The same old stuff about Barcelona traipsed out every year...I suppose their defence is dodgy as well..? :rolleyes:

Runaway Spanish league (commonly regarded as the best league in the world)champions 2 years in a row and now convincing European Champions...and yet they are only 'a good team':rolleyes:

NeilMcD

19/05/2006, 10:48 AM

I
I thought Arsenal were great on the night, but I'd like to see Arsenal being big enough to acknowledge that their own failings (missed chances, Eboue failing to pick up Eto, goalie being beaten twice at near post, Lehmann's error of judgment) were the principal reasons for losing the final. Just like the famous defeat at Old Trafford where Graham Poll had an absolute shocker of a game allowing the Neville brothers and Van Nistelrooy to kick lumps out of Arsenal without punishment and missing Rooney's dive, Arsenal ignored the failings on their own doorstep - they lost the game because despite having overcome Poll's lenient tolerance of MUFC's tactics, their passing & ball retention went to pot completely in the 15 mins before MUFC scored, Vieira & Campbell being most culpable. If Arsenal just move on & get on with it they'll have a lot more respect from neutrals.

Well said Stuttgart, I find it an annoying trait of such a side that likes to play lovely football. When they get beaten it seems that they use every other reason under the sun other than the fact that they were beaten fair and square by the better team. I think this cost them when they got beaten and Old Trafford in that they nevre got over that defeat for a long time. I think if they had of accepted it more graciously than they may have gone on a better run.

NeilMcD

19/05/2006, 10:54 AM

[QUOTE=KarlosIRL]But Neil, nobody including the Arsenal players are blaming the ref for the sending off. I don't how many times I have to say it, but he got it right.

QUOTE]

I think in fact you are wrong there, some people have blamed the ref for the incident, one being Sepp Blatter, others being Andy Gray. I blame him also for not letting the play go on give the goal and send Lehmann off. In my view that would have been the correct decision to give.

Roadend

19/05/2006, 10:56 AM

I believe anything Andy Gray says should be taken with a pinch of salt.

Dodge

19/05/2006, 10:58 AM

Listened to a bit of his commentary, and even knowing the outcome and what was happening at that time, he was still totally unbearable

Karlos

19/05/2006, 11:17 AM

I think in fact you are wrong there, some people have blamed the ref for the incident, one being Sepp Blatter, others being Andy Gray. I blame him also for not letting the play go on give the goal and send Lehmann off. In my view that would have been the correct decision to give.

I'll rephrase then - no one at Arsenal FC is blaming the referee for the sending off. Doesn't stop people making ridicuolous claims about Arsenal being sore losers. The Henry interview that some people are referencing to the goalkeeper incident and the loss is available on Sky Sports website for all to see.

The comments Henry made on the overall performance of the referee were absolutely spot on. People must have missed or refused to hear Henry say 'that the referee got the sending off right' and that he didn't think he 'cost us the game'. It was his performance overall that was questioned and not the twisted thoughts the likes of Harry Harris would have people believe. The misquoting of what Henry actually said is unbelievable.

Of seven issues for mandatory yellow cards in the laws of the game he missed at least 5 of them on a regualr basis. As just one example people have tried to brush off the likes of the Edmilison issue which is there in black and white as a cautionable offence that was never followed. Apply the laws fairly for everyone and there can be no complaints

You can't demand one action and then hide away from all the others as most people seem to be doing

By beliving he still got the call wrong on the Lehmann incident you only further the case of why such ineptness was allowed in a major final. The fact the man himself has changed his view on the incident and what he would have done again speaks volumes on his own performance.

Dodge

19/05/2006, 11:25 AM

NeilMcD

19/05/2006, 11:26 AM

The ref had a stinker in my view and he was not up to handling the game. However I think if you lose a game you are better off not even mentioning the ref or his performance.

Henry should have given an interview saying that Arsenal were fantastic he was proud of his players for playing so well with ten men and that Barca are a great club and congratulations to them End of story.

Instead he wanted to ramble on for about 5 minutes about the ref and then the performance of two of the players for Barca Ronaldinhio and Eto and having a go at their personality was bang out of order in my view and I expected more from him. He should realise that ETO scored a goal and was involved in the major incident of the game which was set up by Ronaldinhio.

Also Arsenal FC have given out about the First goal and said it was offside. This despite the fact you saw on Sky on Wed night it was onside and doubt should always favour the attacking. Paul Merson and Guillit and Redknapp all said it was onside.

The point is Arsenal should not even be chatting about the referee in my view as it just comes across as sour grapes.

Karlos

19/05/2006, 11:36 AM

Not being funnt but if you were to analyse every game and give yellow cards for every bookable incident, I'd be fairly sure you'd be left with 7 v 7 and those 14 booked. Wednesday game was no different. I think Reitoir's review of the performance earlier in this thread is excellent and fairly informative

You are right of course but the laws are the laws. Many of them I don't agree with. The referee gets paid to use them as directed and even more so when such a prize is at stake. Sadly he didn't. Both teams I felt had huge grounds for complaint on that score.

geysir

19/05/2006, 11:46 AM

In one of Collina's last games in Italy, he was fooled by some three obvious fresh air contacts, followed by blatant leaps in the air and the icing on the cake roll overs. But if it's Collina who misses them then its the player's deception comes into question.

Karlos

19/05/2006, 11:48 AM

The ref had a stinker in my view and he was not up to handling the game. However I think if you lose a game you are better off not even mentioning the ref or his performance. .

I don't think any referee deserves to get away with that type of performance. People are quick to attack players when they don't perform and Henry has every right to have a go at him. I would be disgusted for any player to not show the type of passion that Henry does especially when it's very much justified. :) :)

Also Arsenal FC have given out about the First goal and said it was offside. This despite the fact you saw on Sky on Wed night it was onside and doubt should always favour the attacking. Paul Merson and Guillit and Redknapp all said it was onside.

I didn't see anything on Sky. You do fail to mention that Wenger questioned the offside amongst a 5 minute chat where the focus was praising Barcelona & his own players very highly as you had wished. It's a tiny aspect of what was a very sporting interview.

For my money and some others, Eto'o is offside when Larrson touches the ball. It happened so quickly so I don't blame the linesman. I don't watch Sky here in Canada but I've watched the incident on video numerouss times and I'm still of the opinion he's offside but only at Larssons touch. Sometimes you get those, sometimes you don't but you've every right to feel agreived by it.

Of course during the game the advantage should be given to the attackers but if he's offside, he is offside and if it was Ireland we would all feel hard done by that.

Dodge

19/05/2006, 11:56 AM

No, its been proved Eto'o was onside. Marginally but he was.

Karlos

19/05/2006, 12:01 PM

No, its been proved Eto'o was onside. Marginally but he was.

Well I haven't seen anything to prove it onside and I assume 3 minutes after the game neither had Wenger even after watching the footage he was presented.

He's adamant that the tv footage he was shown in Paris showed it differently and I have to say what I have seen concurs with that view albeit very marginal and easily missed in my opinion :)

Till I see whatever proves it otherwise, I stick by what I've watched on video numerous times although of course I could be wrong. :)

Dodge

19/05/2006, 12:05 PM

You are :D

Don't blame Wenger for questioning after the game BTW

Marked Man

19/05/2006, 12:08 PM

I'll rephrase then - no one at Arsenal FC is blaming the referee for the sending off. Doesn't stop people making ridicuolous claims about Arsenal being sore losers.

The comments Henry made on the overall performance of the referee were absolutely spot on. .

If someone says that the Ref should have been wearing a Barcelona shirt after he makes one decision that cost Barcelona a goal and made another that gifted Arsenal a goal, how can anyone think anything else other than that he's a sore loser?
If the ref was inept (which I don't think he was), he was inept for both teams.

And the fact that he's now second guessing a decision which even you say he got right doesn't show anything about his performance; it shows only that he's feeling the pressure now with everyone claiming he should have ignored the rules and let the keeper stay on.

Karlos

19/05/2006, 12:21 PM

If someone says that the Ref should have been wearing a Barcelona shirt after he makes one decision that cost Barcelona a goal and made another that gifted Arsenal a goal, how can anyone think anything else other than that he's a sore loser?
.

You obviously haven't listened to the interview. He accused the referee of wearring a barca shirt in relation to the treatment he recieved. You like so many others have totally taken his comments out of context. :rolleyes:

He said himself that the ref was right on the sending off and didn't cost Arsenal the game but complained soley on the standard of the refereeing with regard to himself. He was spot on and I'm still waiting for someone to prove that differently. :rolleyes:

Watch the interview again as you do Henry a terrible but not surprising in-justice.

Dodge

19/05/2006, 12:24 PM

complained soley on the standard of the refereeing with regard to himself. He was spot on and I'm still waiting for someone to prove that differently. :rolleyes:

Do you honestly believe that Campbell and Toure weren't going in just as hard on Eto and Ronaldinho. I can think of one foul on Henry (mis-timed tackle by Marquez) but he certainly wasn't kicked up and down the park. He was just marked tightly by quality defenders.

ColinR

19/05/2006, 12:27 PM

You obviously haven't listened to the interview. He accused the referee of wearring a barca shirt in relation to the treatment he recieved. You like so many others have totally taken his comments out of context. :rolleyes:

have you seen the itv interview - the context of that one was most definately sour grapes and accusing the ref of costing arsenal the match. in this case he is definately in te wrong, understandable considering it was minutes after losing such a big match, but he should have the grace at his press conference today to take back his comments.