Ireland v Chile, 24/05/06

[Real ale Madrid]

I think Shels, City, Drogs and Derry would survive.

[John83]

The game has done well but it could do so much better. I see no reason why the EL could not become the equal of the SPL. If we combined with IFA we could create a single, domestic league. Perhaps pare it down to 12 teams or so and really put time and money into it.
European results suggest that the eL is already on a par with the non Old Firm teams. Nothing suggests that we can match the Old Firm in the near future. Frankly, given how their fans behave, I'm happy with that.


I do not agree that 3/4 EL teams would survive in the CCC.
Please point out where one person has claimed otherwise.

[Fergie's Son]

I think Shels, City, Drogs and Derry would survive.

I disagree. I hold that opinion for several reasons. Chief among them is that clubs in the CCC tend to be larger and better funded than any of the clubs mentioned above. Moreover, they pay their players better which means that they will attract better players. On a once-off a team like Shels could beat a team like Seffield Wednesday but over a period of time the economics make it clear that they cannot compete.

[pineapple stu]

Was there a match on then?


Were there the "IRA/SinnFein" add-ons? If so, bloody disgraceful. Idiots.
That's always sung. Remarkably irritating, especially as you can't drown it out with anything if you're singing the proper version. I think it started about ten years ago with some crap dance/rave song which threw it in? I remember that song and I don't remember hearing the IRA/Sinn Féin stuff before then. If that's the case, whoever had that "song" should be summarily shot for crimes against Irish culture.

Poor performance. Thought Kilbane was superb (relatively). 2002 World Cup showed he could play at left-back anyway, so no real surprises. Got forward well and tackled well also. Definite option there.

Kav did well, Byrne did well when he came on, thought Reid had a good game but it looks like I'm in the minority.

As for a meaningless game - McCarthy had a few friendlies at the start of his era when he tried out various things - 3-5-2 most prominently. They didn't work; he stopped (eventually). If this game serves to get 3-4-1-2 out of Staunton's system, it'll have been worth it.

John83 - Crowe had spells at Torquay and Exeter in Division 3 as well. Went out on loan from Wolves to join them.

[nedder]

There's a rather big difference between the "thought police" and people who are irritated by people too lazy to start a sentance with a capital letter, use an apostrophie when appropriate or distinguish between "their", "there" and "they're".

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[Real ale Madrid]

I disagree. I hold that opinion for several reasons. Chief among them is that clubs in the CCC tend to be larger and better funded than any of the clubs mentioned above. Moreover, they pay their players better which means that they will attract better players. On a once-off a team like Shels could beat a team like Seffield Wednesday but over a period of time the economics make it clear that they cannot compete.

Ridiculous - Shels beat Sheffield fcukin Wednesday everyday of the week. Bigger history and better TV backing maybe but i'd like to compare Shels and Sheff Weds wage bill.

I'd love to see Deportivo La Coruna v Sheff Wed at hillborough in a competitive game - it would be a massacre.

Open your eyes and give the eL a bit of credit - the problem is perception due to Sky bloody sports in Irish living rooms selling a foreign product to Irish people who couldnt be bothered to get off thier @rses a see how good the game is here now. On an overall scale England has 92 professional clubs - we have 4 - of course thats going to create more money etc - but if you look at the bare facts on the pitch and the better team is, to me, obvious.

I'm off to wash out my mouth now after saying so many nice things about Shels:p

[John83]

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Touché.

Hartman's Law of Prescriptivist Retaliation, "Any article or statement about correct grammar, punctuation, or spelling is bound to contain at least one eror."

[pineapple stu]

Like apostrophie? :p

By the way - can a mod split this?

[Fergie's Son]

Ridiculous - Shels beat Sheffield fcukin Wednesday everyday of the week. Bigger history and better TV backing maybe but i'd like to compare Shels and Sheff Weds wage bill.

I'd love to see Deportivo La Coruna v Sheff Wed at hillborough in a competitive game - it would be a massacre.


You're missing my point, any team can win on a one-off but over the long term a better financed team (wjich you admit yourself) like Sheffield Wednesday will, over time, be consistently better than a Shelbourne. I find it highly unlikely that Shelbourne's wage bill is as high as Wednesday's.


On an overall scale England has 92 professional clubs - we have 4 - of course thats going to create more money etc - but if you look at the bare facts on the pitch and the better team is, to me, obvious.

Let's stick with logic shall we. Firstly, we are speaking only about the CCC (by which I mean Division 1 of the English league). That excludes some 70 or so teams. I would wager that the wage bill and overall revenue stream and budget for all 20 teams is larger than Shelbourne's (who are close to being the best financed team in Ireland). Given that and given the maxim that the better players follow the better $$ then it is clear that, over a season a better financed, better paying team will usually beat a lesser financed, lesser paying team.

[John83]

Like apostrophie? :p

By the way - can a mod split this?
Bugger.

Yes, the debate about the level of the eL doesn't belong here. It's a bitch to split at this stage, but whose fault is that for being slow? ;)

[dancinpants]

, over a season a better financed, better paying team will usually beat a lesser financed, lesser paying team.

The very same Shelbourne blew that argument out of the water last season.

[mypost]

Was there a match on then? Poor performance.

People are making up excuses for the defeat, like the players had their eyes on their holidays after a long season, something I don't accept.

These guys are highly-paid professionals, and playing for your country should be a blessing, not a burden. If you're on your last day at work before a break, you concentrate on doing your job efficiently until you are finished your shift, then you go on your holidays. If you have school exams, you don't do the last exam half-heartedly. You do it to the best of your ability and only then, do you think about your holidays.

Losing this match in the short term = 3 defeats at former Fortress Lansdowne in 5 games :eek: , and a further slide down the world rankings. In the longer term, if we're outplayed at home by the likes of Chile, you fear how the team will cope when they face better players from Holland, Germany, and the Czechs in the autumn.


Byrne did well when he came on

He was the best player out there in the time he was on, showing the fitness benefits of playing summer football.

[Fergie's Son]

The very same Shelbourne blew that argument out of the water last season.

Again, you are missing the point. Over time, the better financed team will win more, on average, than the lesser financed team.

Again, how exactly did Shelbourne blow that out of the water? By getting beaten by Deportivo? Putting up a good performance? On that basis, the Faroe Islands are a world class team seeing as how they beat Austria once.

[dancinpants]

Again, how exactly did Shelbourne blow that out of the water? By getting beaten by Deportivo? Putting up a good performance?

Shels had all the money last year, bought all best players and didn't even challenge for the title, they ended up trophyless...over the season.

[Real ale Madrid]

Again, you are missing the point. Over time, the better financed team will win more, on average, than the lesser financed team.

Again, how exactly did Shelbourne blow that out of the water? By getting beaten by Deportivo? Putting up a good performance? On that basis, the Faroe Islands are a world class team seeing as how they beat Austria once.

Ah come off it Fergie's Son - what about Bolton who have very little money doing better than a team like Aston Villa who have loads in comparison. I mean you are dealing in black and white facts and figures - football is not like that - its very difficult to compare leagues in different countrys but to my mind a team like Shelbourne competes very well in the Championship cos they have decent players who are on a par with teams in the middle of the CCC. Football matches are won on the pitch not with the money a certain team may or may not have. I mean Sheff Wed get 20,000 odd at most games - they should be in the Premiership ffs!
Again it brings me back to my point over the perception of the eL. People like to think that THe Championship is miles better than the eL and have all these facts and figures to back up the argument. Facts and figures usually mean nothing unless your not looking after your finances properly. it's much more convienient to sit in front of the TV and "support" your team than get out and support your local team where god forbid your eyes might be opened to a decent level of football that doesnt appear on Sky Sports HD!!!

[dancinpants]

Well put Real Ale...Wigan would've been a better example than Bolton though...:o

[Fergie's Son]

Shels had all the money last year, bought all best players and didn't even challenge for the title, they ended up trophyless...over the season.

Which you can directly contrast with Chelsea.

Again, you need to put it into context. A team with roughly the same financial prowess (Arsenal, Liverpool, Man. U. etc.) will be expected, over time, to continue to maintain a title challenge year after year. One need only look at teams that vanished such as Blackburn when Walker's money ran out to support this truism.

[Fergie's Son]

Ah come off it Fergie's Son - what about Bolton who have very little money doing better than a team like Aston Villa who have loads in comparison. I mean you are dealing in black and white facts and figures - football is not like that - its very difficult to compare leagues in different countrys but to my mind a team like Shelbourne competes very well in the Championship cos they have decent players who are on a par with teams in the middle of the CCC.

Which is why I am trying to find an objective criteria to make a comparisson. We have a very simple objective criteria in the form of wages.

The market will not support paying of wages to a player who is not as good as other players. He will soon find himself sold or dropped. The LOI pays their players less because of two reasons:

1. They can. That is, those players can't get paid more in other leagues because they either can't cut it or they have not been discovered yet.

2. The LOI does not have the same financial strength as the CCC so it can't pay it's players that much. That means that it won't attract the better players because they will go where they can earn more money.

Additionally, whilst Wigan are a good example they are also a poor example. They may have done better than Villa this year but over the history of the two teams Villa are a vastly superior and more successful club. You really must look at this in context.

[jockser]

lads it was a nothing game. Chile are preparing for a world cup ireland are preparing for some pina coladas on a beach.
its a waste of money going to watch a post season friendly coz the players dont care after a long season(unless the are making debuts)....and you cant blame them either.

[Real ale Madrid]

Which is why I am trying to find an objective criteria to make a comparisson. We have a very simple objective criteria in the form of wages.

The market will not support paying of wages to a player who is not as good as other players. He will soon find himself sold or dropped. The LOI pays their players less because of two reasons:

1. They can. That is, those players can't get paid more in other leagues because they either can't cut it or they have not been discovered yet.

2. The LOI does not have the same financial strength as the CCC so it can't pay it's players that much. That means that it won't attract the better players because they will go where they can earn more money.

Additionally, whilst Wigan are a good example they are also a poor example. They may have done better than Villa this year but over the history of the two teams Villa are a vastly superior and more successful club. You really must look at this in context.


You keep making the same point using your "obective critera" and spouting off the same thing over and over. i understand what you are saying. The financial strength of the league or leagues as a whole is not a valid argument anyway as some teams have much more resouces available to them as others - its how you utilise it is whats important - anyway we could argue about the merits of one league over another until you are blue in the face. Get out and support an eL team for a year and see what your feelings are then:ball:

[Fergie's Son]

You keep making the same point using your "obective critera" and spouting off the same thing over and over. i understand what you are saying. The financial strength of the league or leagues as a whole is not a valid argument anyway as some teams have much more resouces available to them as others - its how you utilise it is whats important - anyway we could argue about the merits of one league over another until you are blue in the face. Get out and support an eL team for a year and see what your feelings are then:ball:

It's an entirely valid argument and your dismisal of same suggests that you either don't understand (unlikely) or you choose to ignore it (likely).

The premise is simply. If LOI players were good enough then they would seek to maximize their earnings by moving to a league that would pay them more. Unless you are saying that they are not economically-maximizing actors (which is a massive logical leap), then the difference in wages is the most important criteria we can use.

That said, I would LOVE to see the LOI do better and I have been to many a Shel's game in the past and will go in the future.

[Real ale Madrid]

It's an entirely valid argument and your dismisal of same suggests that you either don't understand (unlikely) or you choose to ignore it (likely).

The premise is simply. If LOI players were good enough then they would seek to maximize their earnings by moving to a league that would pay them more. Unless you are saying that they are not economically-maximizing actors (which is a massive logical leap), then the difference in wages is the most important criteria we can use.

That said, I would LOVE to see the LOI do better and I have been to many a Shel's game in the past and will go in the future.

I think your premise is too simple - there are factors other than money that determine the strength of a league. You are saying that the bigger the wage bill the better the team - usually. But sometimes, for a multitude of reasons teams either- punch above thier weight, have players who are more settled playing at home, have a great manager, have great support etc etc.

I havent ignored anything, you make a good compelling argument. But i wholeheartedly disagree with it. Saying your argument was not valid was perhaps unfair in hindsight.

[tricky_colour]

For what it is worth Chile are about halfway through their football season
and are preparing for a World Cup finals hence you would expect them to look
a bit sharper than us (and they did).
Futhermore did we look a bit better in the second half because they were
content to sit back and defend their lead or were we playing better?
A bit of both I suspect?

[dancinpants]

Chile .... are preparing for a World Cup finals hence you would expect them to look a bit sharper

Am I missing something? You're the second person to say that, jockser said it too. Lads Chile ain't going to Germany.

[el punter]

ffs, nonsense indeed. if theres one thing i cant stand its people correcting grammar and the words people use. ****ing thought police


Don't know what you're getting hot and bothered about my friend. I didn't correct anybody. I merely enjoyed your description. 'Dissed' conjures up visions of 'homies' and 'gangstas' for me and I just didn't expect to see it used on a foot.ie thread.

I wasn't policing your thought, on the contrary I was applauding it, admittedly in an over the top kind of way.

[Fergie's Son]

I think your premise is too simple - there are factors other than money that determine the strength of a league. You are saying that the bigger the wage bill the better the team - usually. But sometimes, for a multitude of reasons teams either- punch above thier weight, have players who are more settled playing at home, have a great manager, have great support etc etc.


I agree that there are a myriad of factors wages are a significant indicator of quality.

Put another way, a team even with Shelbourne's budget would not make it in the CCC. How can we tell that? Well, just compare them with other teams who have drifted out of the CCC due to their weak finances.

[tricky_colour]

Am I missing something? You're the second person to say that, jockser said it too. Lads Chile ain't going to Germany.


Oops :o , I took what Jockser said as gospel, I though it a little unlikely
to be honest, but basically I was just to lazy to check it, or indeed add
the word 'apparently' or 'allegedly' to that statement :D

Mind you, if they were in our qualifying group they probably would have qualified ;)

[theworm2345]

Short Highlights, or Lowlights from my point of view
http://www.footballclips.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1776

[Raheny Red]

Am I missing something? You're the second person to say that, jockser said it too. Lads Chile ain't going to Germany.

Also, Kevin Doyle made the same mistake in the post-match interview :p

[tricky_colour]

ffs, nonsense indeed. if theres one thing i cant stand its people correcting grammar and the words people use. ****ing thought police

Tut, tut, tut. I think you mean:-
It's, there's, and can't :rolleyes:
Oh yea and its Ffs and If, not ffs and if, if its the beginning of a sentence :D

[LeixlipRed]

youre right John 83 im just too lazy to use apostrophes and too stupid to distinguish between words while typing. i love people who get hard ons from taking the intellectual high road through the medium of the internet. brilliant stuff altogether. im glad though when i read all your posts with their perfect grammar, spelling, etc that we have people like you to enlighten us. keep up the good work

[Colbert Report]

I like how Leixlip Red edited his last post for spelling mistakes.


Seriously though is there a better player on the team right now than Ian Harte?

[Real ale Madrid]

I agree that there are a myriad of factors wages are a significant indicator of quality.

Put another way, a team even with Shelbourne's budget would not make it in the CCC. How can we tell that? Well, just compare them with other teams who have drifted out of the CCC due to their weak finances.

Money, money, money. Are you an accountant?

[Fergie's Son]

Money, money, money. Are you an accountant?

Nope, just rational.

[Real ale Madrid]

Nope, just rational.

If someone disagrees with you it doesnt make them irrational.

[Fergie's Son]

If someone disagrees with you it doesnt make them irrational.

Not suggesting you are irrational just that you are discarding the clear objective criteria that supports (and really confirms) my position vis-a-vis the CCC versus the LOI.

I think, however, we are both on the same page insofar as we both want the LOI to improve and become at least as good as the SPL!

[el punter]

Seriously though is there a better player on the team right now than Ian Harte?

yes, John O'Shea :)

[GK for the Town]

[QUOTE=
Agreed again. Maybe we should be looking towards the World Cup in four years time. The likes of Aiden McGeady and Owen Garvan should be firmly established by then alongside the old warhorses Robbie and Duffer. I think that represents our best chance at qualification for a tournament in the near future
:ball: PP[/QUOTE]
There are so many people who complained about Jayo getting a chance again. Fair enough he didnt get a good enough shot at it. It is hard with only 20 odd mins at max, but more needs to be said about players in the EL cause most (english)premier league supporters dont know enough about the EL players to make a strong arguement for them to be included in the Irish squad. Its the same point over again i know but the standard in the EL is rising bit by bit so it has to be broadcasted to the many people that there is a bit of talent there

[Stuttgart88]

Having watched Chile against Sweden on eurosport, I think they're actually a pretty decent side.

[Superhoops]

Having watched Chile against Sweden on eurosport, I think they're actually a pretty decent side.
Did you not think that when they played us?

[tetsujin1979]

I think he meant that since they are ranked so low, we expected them to be a fairly average side, and that since they rolled us over so easily, it must mean we're a below average side. But it actually turns out they're an above average side. Which makes us average. Or something!

[geysir]

Put like that, then Stutt's statement is actually an expression of optimism or a desperate attempt to find some positives out of a poor performance.