England World Cup discussion

[Stuttgart88]

I just don't get it and also can't make my mind up about England.

They get crap results in friendlies (Argentina aside but Croatia also beat them 3-2). They assume that because they beat Paraguay 3-0 in 1986 and because it's a globally insignificant country that they'll be a walkover, ignoring the fact that they too beat Argentina. Yet their sheer cockiness & belief elevates their standing. Everytime I watch the best of British or Irish against the rest of the world I think: the rest of the planet plays the game on a higher plane than "us". Yet everytime a big tournament approaches I think England might just do it.

Are England genuine contenders or will the usual failings result in failure yet again? I wish I could convince myself either way.

[tetsujin1979]

They get crap results in friendlies (Argentina aside but Croatia also beat them 3-2).
Don't forget Denmark - 4-1!!

Aside from that, Johnny Giles made an excellent point on Newstalk last night. Because of the way the majority of sides in the Premiership play, posession is frequently given away and teams are renowned for not making good use of possession when they have it. In the majority of domestic games, the top 4 in the country (Chelsea, ManU, Liverpool, Arsenal) don't have to work as hard to get the ball back, and of course they make far better use of it when they have it. When these players make the transition to European and international football they still play the same way, waiting for the opposition to make a mistake so they can retake possession, while still making the same mistakes that they make at club level. This can be especially levelled at the players from teams outside the top 4 (stand up Danny Mills). When playing against opposition whose players are from leagues where possession is prized (Serie A, Primera Lige, Bundesliga, Ligue 1) their players don't give the ball away as often as say, Aston Villa (no offence Villa, I could just as easily pick Charlton, Birmingham, etc) so the English players are left at a disadvantage because these are not the types of games they are used to week in, week out. And this is why I think they will fail to win the World Cup.

[Stuttgart88]

Yep, in "usual failings" I was including ball retention, or lack of it. Agree. But a bit like the English Rugby World Cup winning team in '03, I think their sheer will to win & conviction they can win it may get them further than usual. That's why I can't fully make my mind up.

[NeilMcD]

Exit in either the semi or the quarter finals. they have good enough players to get there and should beat Germany or Poland in the 2nd round. They could well win a quarter final and if the worst case scenario is if they win a semi on penalties rather than go out on penalities. But they will not win the tournament.

[eirebhoy]

We'll find out on Tuesday what team Sven reckons is his best. If it's a 4-4-2 with Gerrard and Lampard in the centre they're screwed imo.

[cheifo]

IMO they have to play Carrick because he can pass and protect the back four but then where do they play Gerard,Becham and Lampard?Without Roony I think they will rely heavily on Gerard for creativity but he does not like to be the holding midfielder so it could be interesting.

[DmanDmythDledge]

Looks like Ericsson is going to play 4-4-2 with a Gerrard and Lampard partnership and a Owen/Crouch partnership.

[shakermaker1982]

Q Finals at best. I think they'll meet Big Phil's side in the Quarters and that will be that for ING GER LAND.

[Stuttgart88]

Carragher to play holding midfielder tonight. Merciful Jaysus.

[shakermaker1982]

brilliant move. Fingers crossed Paraguay roll em over now!!!

[NeilMcD]

What a stupid move that is by England in my view, is obvious that Carrick is the man for that role. In international football its all about keeping the ball and Carrick does that. If Only he were Irish I would have him straight away.

[The Stars]

After watching them tonight I can safely say that they will not win the World Cup......btw,quote me if you think my saying this will come back to haunt me.

Anyone else notice that when Gerrard clearly DIVED, Lawro didnt even comment on it,instead switching the focus back to Michael Owen's miss.
In the world cup if anyone dives like gerard did tonight they will shame him, saying what a cheat he is etc....

[cheifo]

Beautiful strike by the Hungarian lad.Leaving Carrick out is just plain stupid altough some of panelists quotes about Hargreaves got a bit personal "he must have something on Sven that he keeps playing him""-Wrighty -a man who makes George W sound like Laurence Olivier.

[Stuttgart88]

I didn't see very much of it but from what I read it seems to support my opinion that there'll be no better team in Germany from set-pieces. Whether this'll be enough to compensate for other weaknesses I'm not sure though.

I'm still in a mixed mind. If they play to their strengths, like Man United did in Europe in 1999, a bit of luck like United had could see them win it. But more often than not their style of football falls short against the technically superior brand played almost everywhere else.

[tetsujin1979]

I thought Ian Wright's comments at half time were disgraceful "well if everyone else is going to do it (dive for a penalty) and do it against us then why can't we do it"??

England were fairly uninspired in the first half, and I only saw the goals in the second hald. Ericsson is on record as saying this is how he will line out against Paraguay, Hungary showed them that they have nothing to fear if they get forward. Carragher didn't do much wrong, but having said that didn't do much to impress and looked far more effective in defence. His range of passing isn't really suited to the holding role. If you had his tackling and reading of the game combined with Beckham's passing ability, then you'd have a perfect holding player.

[shakermaker1982]

I thought Ian Wright's comments at half time were disgraceful "well if everyone else is going to do it (dive for a penalty) and do it against us then why can't we do it"??

England were fairly uninspired in the first half, and I only saw the goals in the second hald. Ericsson is on record as saying this is how he will line out against Paraguay, Hungary showed them that they have nothing to fear if they get forward. Carragher didn't do much wrong, but having said that didn't do much to impress and looked far more effective in defence. His range of passing isn't really suited to the holding role. If you had his tackling and reading of the game combined with Beckham's passing ability, then you'd have a perfect holding player.

spot on. Wright shouts out live on air that cheating is acceptable and nobody really pulls him up on it. He cannot even speak properly yet presents his own game shows and gets a seat on the MOTD panel?! I am clearly in the wrong trade......

England were very average against a side made up of players from Palace etc.

I can't wait till Argentina/Portugal and Brazil get hold of em. Their only hope is free kicks and corners which is about as exciting as it gets for them.

[eirebhoy]

England were very average against a side made up of players from Palace etc.
England always look average. They somehow get the result though. They definitely don't look like they have the ability to win the world cup but with Beckham and John Terry they could win it on freekicks alone.

[Stuttgart88]

Set-pieces are very important. They're a crucial part of Chelsea's success and were a crucial part of any Celtic successes, especially home wins in Europe, under O'Neill.

Graham taylor cited the following stat on Radio 5 Live last night: 40% of all goals come from restarts. Not sure what universe of goals he's referring to but it's telling nonetheless.

[DmanDmythDledge]

I think England's chances in the World Cup could come down to whether or not Sven can pick the best 11 players at his disposal. Carragher does not have the passing abilities to play in the holding midfield role. Also, I don't think that Gerrard is effective as a second striker. Sven should let him play in a normal midfield position and attack from there, where I think he will be more effective.

[eirebhoy]

I think England's chances in the World Cup could come down to whether or not Sven can pick the best 11 players at his disposal. Carragher does not have the passing abilities to play in the holding midfield role. Also, I don't think that Gerrard is effective as a second striker. Sven should let him play in a normal midfield position and attack from there, where I think he will be more effective.
I agree. There's not much changing to do from the last match though. Carrick in for Carragher and Lampard switched with Gerrard. Lampard doesn't know the mean of tackling so he shouldn't be playing behind Gerrard.

[Stuttgart88]

So we all know that Carragher isn't a passer of a ball and hence not a natural candidate for holding midfielder.

But does anyone think Sven may have been giving him pitch time in this position just in case they need to man-mark Ronaldiho or Kaka if they come up against Brazil, or Riquelme if Argentina? Or would that be too much like planning ahead?

[liam88]

...who of ye exiles will be supporting England?

I'm going to go for it again; I may not have a drop of English blood in my body but as neither Ireland or Burma (or the Vatican!) are in the World cup, I've grown up in England and the vast majoirty of my mates are English I'm going to go for it :)

No shame at all -I've got some great memories of congas through Guildford when England beat Denmark and if it's between that and being the grumpy one who supports nobody I know which one I'll rather be!

sooooo who do you think you are kidding, Jurgen Klinsmann :D :D

[DmanDmythDledge]

So we all know that Carragher isn't a passer of a ball and hence not a natural candidate for holding midfielder.

But does anyone think Sven may have been giving him pitch time in this position just in case they need to man-mark Ronaldiho or Kaka if they come up against Brazil, or Riquelme if Argentina? Or would that be too much like planning ahead?
Defensively he seems very good in that position but if they were to adapt that they would probably resort to using the long ball and there would be no target man, unless Crouch starts ahead of Owen in that formation, which he won't. Nonsense.

[DmanDmythDledge]

England 2-0 against Jamaica. Good work by Crouch and Owen to set up Lampard for the first goal. Second was a Beckham free kick from the left, headed in by Terry I think.

EDIT: It was og.

[DmanDmythDledge]

I think it's a good ploy by Ericcson to use two differentt formations in the build up friendlies. It will keep Paraguay guessing. Also, as Ericcson said himself, they need to have a few options available to them depending who they get in the knock out rounds.

[DmanDmythDledge]

3-0, England cruising. From a corner(Stuttgart you were right) Crouch shoots, defender makes mess of clearence and sends ball backwards into his own goal. The robot celebration makes a re-appearance!

Owen scores as I write. Lovely through ball by Ferdinand, Jamaica try to play offside, keeper comes 25 yards out to try and challenge Owen, takes it round him, scores into empty net.

Terry and Cole are off, Campbell and Bridge on. Terry was a precaution but Cole was limping slightly I think.

[DmanDmythDledge]

I will be supporting England. I always have and I always will, except where Ireland are playing of course.

[TheOwl]

England for the World Cup? Well maybe but...
There is that nagging doubt about Wayne Rooney's foot
Will he be sharp enough come the big day?
Will he be fit enough even to play?

Because although they have Gerrard, have Lampard, and Cole
Without their magician there's still a big hole
Even if they get some goals from Michael Owen
I still fear they will be cursing that metatarsal bone

Because losing your play-maker is an almighty blow
Imagine Brazil without Ronaldinho?
And you need immense skills when the big games come round
And in Owen Hargreaves such skills can't be found

So without Wayne Rooney; England haven't a chance
Against the likes Brazil, Argentina, or France
Because although with Wayne Rooney, for England I could vouch
They haven't a hope, if they're relying on Crouch

From http://www.thesportingglobe.com/england.htm

[Pauro 76]

If England win the World Cup, well it'd rude not to join in the party. Doubt its gonna happen though!

[oconghc2]

nah im not gonna support england - and im gettiing annoyed with some of the talk on the radio etc saying that the irish should support england! (can understand the irish in england supporting them maybe - because a lot of your mates are english and you're bound to have some affinity.

Me though - dont like the english team so I wont support them - as I wont be supporting the Swiss and a few other teams- cause i dont like them!!

Put it this way - you wouldnt see a bohs fan supporting rovers! (I understand that internationals are slightly different).

All this said - england being beaten in semis would be nice!

[Stuttgart88]

Great post Liam and fair play. But I won't be cheering them on. Ever since I was 7 or 8 I just couldn't believe their attitude, except notably from Barry Davies. I feel like I'm being a crank at times, as I love living in London, love so many things about English life & culture and more than anything, am married to an English girl (albeit with Irish grandparentage!!).

However, as an unashamed bleeding heart liberal leftie I just can't relate to all the WW2 references such as the Jurgen Klinsmann/ Dad's Army jibe you cited above. Can't they ever just drop it? Totally tasteless and ignorant (not you Liam as I know you meant it in jest, but the relentless general anti-German theme makes me cringe). And even during the party atmosphere at OT today all I could hear was "English till I die..." which has clear far right / racist overtones in my mind yet constantly gets brushed under the carpet. Cranky to the extreme maybe but that's what I think.

There was a great article in The Guardian recently about the assymetry in the German / English supporter relationship. If I can find it when I get back to work on Monday I'll add it to this post. For me, Germany over England as I'd love to see the media (including 80% of the respectable media choke on its jingoism. I have a bad feeling that it'll be me choking on my crankiness in the end though. Come on rest of the world, save me from my worst nightmare! :)

[DmanDmythDledge]

They haven't a hope, if they're relying on Crouch
Ye he was rubbish today.:rolleyes:

On a serious note though after today's performance I think that Crouch can make a name for himself at this World Cup. A lot of defences will find it difficult to cope with a player like him. And he can score despite what people say.

[FarBeag]

dmandmythdledge. You appear to be a big supporter and I think you would be extremely disappointed if England did not take the cup home.I think they will go a long way, maybe semi final but they won’t win it. What are your views?

[DmanDmythDledge]

It's an interesting situation. A team of world class players but they just can't seem to pull it off on the big occassions.

England have the best team they have had in a long time. All the ingredients are there for success. By the looks of things in the friendlies Ericcson has imporoved on the substitution front. But can he do it under real pressure? He will be trying harder than he ever did to make sure that he doesn't go down as a failure- England's best group of players since 1966 trophyless? Now that wouldn't go down well amongst media or fans.

England have proved that they can beat the minnows of world football easily enough but the question remains can Ericcson move up a gear tactically agaisnt the likes of Brazil. A big question mark hangs over the Gerrard/Lampard partnership. If they can find a way to work with each other their partnership can be a catalyst for success.

Overall, they have the players to win the World Cup but it will come down to performances on the day. The players and coach will be more motivated than ever- it could be Beckham's last chance to get his hands on silverware, same with Ericcson. It is the best chance they have had since 1990. They have proved they can beat Argentina and they will probably be their opponents in the final. However Brazil will be the opstacle in their way. Brazil are beatable- their defence will be obviously weak down their flanks.

I think England's chances in this World Cup all boil down to Ericcson's tactical decisions. He will have learned from his past mistakes. I think this will be the year that England will do it.

[geysir]

There's definetly a case for the offside and I must admit I haven't seen the goal in a year or two. I did remeber Terry appearing to be in an offside position but honestly can't remember if he strayed after Campbell made contact with his head or not so I'll take your word on it as the images aren't that conclusive. :)
However I do know for certain that linesman's flag never went up and I'm not surprised at that as the penalty box was so crowded for the incident and any offside was marginal in a split second.

Either way I suppose my real issue is with the conscious deciscion the referree made and not the honest one he missed. There was no foul on the goalkeeper in my eyes and I'll never view that type of incident as a foul. It was a very soft descision to give to the home team. To give that type of foul everytime would effectively rule challenging for a header anywhere out on the field in my opinion. I would definetly feel hard done by if that had been us in that scenario. :)
I have been avoiding the world cup forum until I had nothing better to do. That disallowed goal right or wrong was a happy enough memory.
The ref in a recent enough interview stated that he gave the penalty for Terry's foul on the keeper.
http://www.swissnews.ch/site1.php
"Meier still believes he made the right call.... “It wasn’t Campbell who made the foul. It was John Terry.” Aside from die-hard fans and the press that encouraged them, most agree. “A lot of people only look at Campbell,” he continues. “And they say, ‘what’s the problem, what foul?’ Some broadcasters purposely didn’t show what Terry was doing. He used his arm to hold down Ricardo (the goalkeeper) by the shoulder. Right afterwards Terry was looking at me and his face said 100 per cent, he knew exactly what he’d done.”
That would have been a foul anywhere."

[shakermaker1982]

I live in England and would simply have to leave my home and work for 4 weeks if they won the bloody thing.

The people on the whole are sound but it's just the hooligan element and arrogant press that make me cheer on every team they ever play.

[FarBeag]

I also live in London and married to an English woman. Thank God she is not into football though. My nine year old son although supports Ireland will be supporting them unfortunately but as much as I dislike it, he is born here; goes to school here and all his friends are English. Maybe in time he will change I hope.


According to many England supporters here England has already won it. I for one will not be able to relax and enjoy the WC until they are knocked out.The narrow minded and arrogant English media make me sick.I have never wanted England to win anything and I am surely not going to start now.

[nlgbbbblth]

The people on the whole are sound but it's just the hooligan element and arrogant press that make me cheer on every team they ever play.

Living in England means it's practically impossible to avoid the arrogant and jingoistic media.

However in Ireland we have no excuse. A familiar reason given by Irish people for not supporting England is 'we'll never hear the end of it'. That's not a valid reason as we can easily avoid the English media. Perversely it's usually the same moronic sheep that buy the Sun and Mirror over here that complain about the English press. Why buy it if that's the case? Why not buy the Irish Times?

[Gather round]

The Irish Times buys sports, news and some other coverage from English papers (mainly the Guardian). It can be hard to ignore their media.

I hope England don't win the World Cup as said media will go ape****, otherwise I don't really mind how they do overall. I'd support them as the underdog against Brazil, Germany and maybe France and Italy.

[nlgbbbblth]

The Irish Times buys sports, news and some other coverage from English papers (mainly the Guardian). It can be hard to ignore their media.



Yes you are correct. Most of the Irish Times football reporting says 'The Guardian Service' underneath the column.

However The Guardian's style of reporting is relatively restrained and not very jingoistic. The red-top tabloids and The Daily Mail / Express are the biggest offenders in this regard - yet these are the papers that sell lots of copies over here.

[CraftyToePoke]

I live in England and would simply have to leave my home and work for 4 weeks if they won the bloody thing.

The people on the whole are sound but it's just the hooligan element and arrogant press that make me cheer on every team they ever play.


thats about the size of it, that and the sheer arrogance of them in relation to their group games, fair enough they will probably emerge from the group, but to treat their opponents with such disrespect makes me want them to loose, badly........every fuc&in time.

i regularly hear comments like ''if we dont thrash paraguay and sweeden then we will never win it''...........and this attitude makes me sick, the assumed superiority over fine footballing nations such as these, based purely on the fact that ''they are england'' is pompous nonsense and i hate it. its the height of ignorance/arrogance and all that is wrong with the national phsyche of this place.

id dearly love to see them flop, and flop with a fully fit rooney as well, so theres nowhere to hide and not a crumb of comfort to be had for them.

[TheOwl]

I will support all 31 teams OTHER than England.

For many, many reasons....

[Gather round]

As a point of information, Germany & Italy are below Eng.in the FIFA rankings, so guess they are then the underdogs? For purposes of objectivity though, U.S.A & Mexico are above them...........

Fair enough- I'd only have Germany as favourite in that game as they're at home.

[Stuttgart88]

Did anyone else notice and cringe at this, which I noticed in the Indo's website this morning? It doesn't say who wrote the article on the website.

http://www.unison.ie/sportsdesk/stories.php3?ca=12&si=1627595


"WE could go all the way this time. We could win this thing, and to make it even sweeter, we could do it on German soil."


"The higher ground awaits us, a place where we can take pleasure in England faring well in the country whose nazis they defeated, with the Irish actually on board this time. "

As I said above, part of me thinks I'm being churlish not supporting England and I applaud the magnaminity of those above who say they will. When all is said and done it's simply whether you want one footy team to win, or another.

In the Indo article the writer cheekily mentions "we". Big deal. But here it all goes again: what is the significance of German soil for an Irishman (in fact what's the significance for an Englishman either? It's a football tournament). And even this Irishman can't mention the Germans without mentioning the Nazis. Looks like this writer has been fully infected with the English disease. Whatever his justifiable sporting reasons for supporting England, he's clearly jumped on the xenophobic bandwagon too. Shame on him.

Even the Queen said it, in a different context: "There are sinister forces at work in this country". It's a pity this writer is happy to embrace all this.

I've also pasted a link from this weekend's Guardian / Observer. Not what I referred to in my above post but it makes interesting reading. It's by an Englishman who won't be supporting England. Personally I think it's over the top, but does contain many home truths.

http://football.guardian.co.uk/worldcup2006/comment/story/0,,1789928,00.html

[Stuttgart88]

i regularly hear comments like ''if we dont thrash paraguay and sweeden then we will never win it''...........and this attitude makes me sick, the assumed superiority over fine footballing nations such as these, based purely on the fact that ''they are england'' is pompous nonsense and i hate it.
The funny thing is, before November they were slating their own team on the back of losing to Norn Iron & Denmark and scraping a win in Cardiff. Then they score a friendly win over Argentina. From that moment on they've been almost certain to win it! But Paraguay, who they play first, beat and drew with Argentina in COMPETITIVE games! Honestly, the arrogance. In fact this morning is the first time I've read ANYTHING about the opposition.

[CraftyToePoke]

The funny thing is, before November they were slating their own team on the back of losing to Norn Iron & Denmark and scraping a win in Cardiff. Then they score a friendly win over Argentina. From that moment on they've been almost certain to win it! But Paraguay, who they play first, beat and drew with Argentina in COMPETITIVE games! Honestly, the arrogance. In fact this morning is the first time I've read ANYTHING about the opposition.


wasnt aware the paraguyans had done the argientinians, this brings great hope stutt, good tidings,nice one. the sweedes are capable too. and heres hoping the 11 carry the attitude of the nation generally onto the pitch with them, and get dumped out in the group stages, what a joy that would be to behold. i wouldnt want to be living anywhere else then, i can tell you:D ;)

[superfrank]

I won't be supporting England but they are certainly not, by far, the last team I would want to see winning.

[Stuttgart88]

this brings great hopeDon't get too carried away yet though. England are a quality proposition from set-pieces. From what I saw of Paraguay vs Norway last week, the Paraguayans defend corners & set-pieces about as well as Jamaica.

[Pauro 76]

Two reasons why im not rooting for England winning the thing. The hype and arrogance of the English media. The tennis player Andy Murray (who’s Scottish), joked about wearing a Paraguay shirt for his next match, it was a light hearted comment, next thing you know, newspaper columnists having a right go at him, with their pompous ‘we pay your wages’ etc. It was a throwaway comment, but so many got on their high horse about it. Not to mention the whole ‘Mars/Believe’ ad campaign over here. Arrogance beyond belief. Although I wouldnt like to see them win it, i certainly dont wish them to flunk it in the first round. We go on about the arrogance of the English media, but some of our papers are just as bad with the anti English thing. (Roy Curtis of the Sunday World for example...)

[micls]

Id like to see England win in that i have relatives etc who live there but dunno if i could handle the media afterwards. Il probably cheer for them but wont be hugely bothered either way