Barca v Chelsea Round2

[klein4]

poor game - great goal. disapointed by chelseas constant diving. fair play to Barcelona for bein a bit more tactically saavy than they are ever given credit for. fancy one of the big italian teams to take them tho. highlight of the night was the look on john terrys face as he ran back to halfwayline after peno as if to say " we are back in this game lads" only for reff to blow whistle 5 seconds later. too much made of mourhinho and his mind games.biggest thing is that he gets his teams to play such ordinary (but admittedly effective)football. great if you are a chelsea fan but not much for the neutrals(of whom neilmcd is our leader;) ).

[NeilMcD]

poor game - great goal. disapointed by chelseas constant diving. fair play to Barcelona for bein a bit more tactically saavy than they are ever given credit for. fancy one of the big italian teams to take them tho. highlight of the night was the look on john terrys face as he ran back to halfwayline after peno as if to say " we are back in this game lads" only for reff to blow whistle 5 seconds later. too much made of mourhinho and his mind games.biggest thing is that he gets his teams to play such ordinary (but admittedly effective)football. great if you are a chelsea fan but not much for the neutrals(of whom neilmcd is our leader;) ).


Ok as leader I kick you out. :) :)

[Clifford]

I believe that most neutrals woudl like to see Barca win the Champions League.

Have to agree with the leader of the neutrals on this one. A win for Barca over any of the defensive Italians and Luckypool will be great for football. An Arse v Barca final would be mouthwatering to see Henry and Gums goin head to head. Saving that I'd like Ajax or Lyon v Barca final - that gives the perfect winner in my opinion.

[Docboy]

Does anyone think the ould pink shirted fella was on the take? Good grief it was a howler and a half, you have to wonder...... Quote

I take it that you didn't see the full highlights then. The Bremen keeper Weise I think was his name had an outstanding game complete with some of the best saves you're likely to see a keeper make. It was really cruel that it had to happen to him. Just the way he fell to the ground to try and smother the ball caused him to spin around and the ball to pop out. Could that be the slice of luck that all champions need?

[wws]

ure having a laugh NmcD if you dont think Crespo is a superstar player - he is a great player who changes games. a fantastic player so too are duff and cole on their day as is robben.

btw carvalho is fcking amazing - he's a defnder but so what?? - defnders are part of the game too - and i'd add terry and ferreria to that class

this barca team has to win the cl to convince me, and my money and mouth is saying they WON'T!

[wws]

You're confusing club and team there. Porto have two european cups, they're not a better team than Barca...

Agree that they can't be considered a great team until they win it though.


you're confusing me with someone confusing club and team there.

I know what I said.

Barca Scummer.

[NeilMcD]

To me it would be Lyon against Barca. I think Lyon are a great team to watch and have been knocking on the door to for a while.

[NeilMcD]

ure having a laugh NmcD if you dont think Crespo is a superstar player - he is a great player who changes games. a fantastic player so too are duff and cole on their day as is robben.

btw carvalho is fcking amazing - he's a defnder but so what?? - defnders are part of the game too - and i'd add terry and ferreria to that class

this barca team has to win the cl to convince me, and my money and mouth is saying they WON'T!


Chelsea have not won the Europea ncup ever either l.


When I say superstar I mean Pele, Maradona, Cruyff, Best, Platini, Van Basten, Zidane, Rivaldo,

Chelsea do not have anybody of this calibre. Somebody that every team in the competition would put in their starting 11 and that wows the crowds.

In my view only Rooney, Ronaldihio and Henry and Shevchenko and possibly Eto fall into this category at the moment.

[NeilMcD]

ure having a laugh NmcD if you dont think Crespo is a superstar player - he is a great player who changes games. a fantastic player so too are duff and cole on their day as is robben.

btw carvalho is fcking amazing - he's a defnder but so what?? - defnders are part of the game too - and i'd add terry and ferreria to that class

this barca team has to win the cl to convince me, and my money and mouth is saying they WON'T!

Carvalho the same guy that clattered the Barca player in the 1st game and gave away a stupid free that led to the goal. He is a very very good player but not a superstar. As I said there is only about 2 or 3 superstars per generation and Chelsea dont have any of them at the moment.

[klein4]

entering the realms of silliness there Leader!
Crespo is world class. it not his fault he doesnt like bein at chelsea.
and rooney hasnt exactly inspired united to great things this season. still fancy arsenal to win it outright and Liverpool to go out tonite.

[Karlos]

still fancy arsenal to win it outright and Liverpool to go out tonite.


didn't want to hear that - you'll pox it now!! :D

I'm sticking with Arsenal are crap, Henry doesn't do it in the big games and Wenger is found out tactically in Europe. No matter what happens it's always nicer to be in Europe longer than Utd and Chelski :)

[klein4]

I tipped liverpool for it last year and they won so dont worry...

[NeilMcD]

entering the realms of silliness there Leader!
Crespo is world class. it not his fault he doesnt like bein at chelsea.
and rooney hasnt exactly inspired united to great things this season. still fancy arsenal to win it outright and Liverpool to go out tonite.


I never said that Crespo was not world Class did I. I just said that he was not a superstar player in the same way that Henry or Ronaldinhio are.

[NeilMcD]

didn't want to hear that - you'll pox it now!! :D

I'm sticking with Arsenal are crap, Henry doesn't do it in the big games and Wenger is found out tactically in Europe. No matter what happens it's always nicer to be in Europe longer than Utd and Chelski :)


Karlos is this the same competition that last year you said did not reall matter that much and that the Premiership was far far more important.

[pete]

Crespo is a quality player. Italy is still hardest european league to score in & i believe he has excellent record there.

Now that Barca have beaten the strongest defense in the competition they are surely favourites.

[Karlos]

Karlos is this the same competition that last year you said did not reall matter that much and that the Premiership was far far more important.

I said if i remember correctly that it's not as important as winning your League and I stick by that. It's a cup competition and often the best team don't win it and it's why Arsenal have a chance this year. We've had better teams than this Arsenal one and gone out far earlier and performed worse. It's still nice to get further in it than your rivals (doesn't make it any more important though). Same goes for every cup competition they enter.

It's a great prize to win but it doesn't make you the best team in europe imo, it just makes you the winners of the european cup. I'd honestly rather be really challenging for the league than playing Real Madrid tonight (all though doing both is preferable no doubt).

It is however a great competition to watch and I'd love Arsenal to win it but it's priority number 2 in the list for me.

[Dodge]

Nah, its definitely the competition everyone in europe wants to win. Means far more to any club than a league win

[OwlsFan]

Also on this logic therefore you should go for the smallest club all the time. Do you shout for Southend if they play Sheff Wed. To be honest Sheff Wed would be one of the biggest clubs in the Championship so I presume most weeks you dont cheer for them. Did you chear for Israel V Ireland last year then.

Now now, you're being pedantic in the extreme. I am not a neutral when it comes to Sheffield Wednesday. Furthermore, I was talking about "massive clubs" - not the "shocks" rubbish of the FA Cup where one small club beats a medium sized one. If Villa Real have more divers and cheats than Barca, I would soon switch my support to the latter. The style of play of a team doesn't affect whom I support - their on field antics would.

I still stand by my statement that the only difference between Barca and Chelsea was the Brazilian.

[NeilMcD]

I said if i remember correctly that it's not as important as winning your League and I stick by that. It's a cup competition and often the best team don't win it and it's why Arsenal have a chance this year. We've had better teams than this Arsenal one and gone out far earlier and performed worse. It's still nice to get further in it than your rivals (doesn't make it any more important though). Same goes for every cup competition they enter.

It's a great prize to win but it doesn't make you the best team in europe imo, it just makes you the winners of the european cup. I'd honestly rather be really challenging for the league than playing Real Madrid tonight (all though doing both is preferable no doubt).

It is however a great competition to watch and I'd love Arsenal to win it but it's priority number 2 in the list for me.


Good Answer Karlos.

[NeilMcD]

Now now, you're being pedantic in the extreme. I am not a neutral when it comes to Sheffield Wednesday. Furthermore, I was talking about "massive clubs" - not the "shocks" rubbish of the FA Cup where one small club beats a medium sized one. If Villa Real have more divers and cheats than Barca, I would soon switch my support to the latter. The style of play of a team doesn't affect whom I support - they're on field antics would.

I still stand by my statement that the only difference between Barca and Chelsea was the Brazilian.


I dont think the logic of your arguments stands up to all arguments.


Which Brazilian are you talking about Motta, Silvinhio, Ronaldhinio

[Over the post]

Going back to Mourinho (Sorry, can't resist) in the Spanish press he was qouted as saying he was now backing Benfica because it was a Portuguese club and he was Portuguese, genuinely Portuguese, not like others.

It sounded very much like a dig at Deco, who if I recall made some comments about him before the first leg.

The man is losing the run of himself

[Karlos]

Nah, its definitely the competition everyone in europe wants to win. Means far more to any club than a league win

I guess I'm not everyone so (but i am living outside Europe at the mo!) :)

I get much more satisfaction winning the league over 38 games than winning cups (european or otherwise!). We could win the European Cup without losing a game this year but it wouldn't compare to the unbeaten league season of 03/04 for me. There would be great scenes and I'd be delighted & all that jazz but we still wouldn't be the best team in Europe. The best teams in Europe haven't won the competition. Liverpool's team is a better team this year and might go out.

I do strongly think it's more important that we do well in the league and there would be no more euphoria in getting to a champions league final and losing for example than finsihing 4th in the league :)

[Dodge]

Yeah but WINNING it is everything. Anything else is nothing

[NeilMcD]

I think your head is right Karlos but there is a small bit of your heart that must wish u could have a night like Liverpool or like Man Utd had a few years ago. I agree with you though the League is a great thing to win and its a pity that sides such as Porto and Liverpool have won the Champions League recently as I do like to see the best side in Europe win it and I believe Barcelona to be that side followed by Juventus and then Chelsea.

[Gaillimh Al]

Only difference the Brazilian? Not a chance.

Mourinho moans about playin with 10 against 11, yet they still managed to take the lead. Think back to before the sending off, where Barca outplayed Chelsea as Mourinho's tactics forced them to counter-attack.
Rijkaard learned from his errors last year. Belletti, regular in La Liga, didnt play after being skinned last year. Mourinho refuses to change his ways. They needed a goal at Anfield and never looked likely till injury time. Ditto last night
He has been a fortunate manager(Tim Howards last minute clanger v Porto). With the money at his disposal he surely should be able to create an attacking side capable of winning titles.

[pete]

Nah, its definitely the competition everyone in europe wants to win. Means far more to any club than a league win

Yeah Rico has already said Cork City priority is Champions League this season.

[Clifford]

Going back to Mourinho (Sorry, can't resist) in the Spanish press he was qouted as saying he was now backing Benfica because it was a Portuguese club and he was Portuguese, genuinely Portuguese, not like others.

It sounded very much like a dig at Deco, who if I recall made some comments about him before the first leg.

The man is losing the run of himself

2+2= 65 per chance?

The question was would he like to see Barca go on and win it now, he said he'd prefer Benfica to win it as he's from Portugal.

[NeilMcD]

From the Guardian


Mourinho must start trusting talent
Kevin McCarra




Chelsea's late arrival in the tunnel at Camp Nou was a miscalculation. A three-minute delay was nothing like long enough on a night when it would have taken a postponement of the fixture to thwart Barcelona. Gamesmanship is always embarrassing when the opposition fail even to notice the ploy, and Frank Rijkaard's players were ready to show their superiority whenever the match kicked off.

Only an unmerited penalty gave Chelsea a 1-1 draw and spared them defeat in each leg. This is turning into a season of slight decline for Jose Mourinho's team. The almost certain retention of the Premiership title and a continuing FA Cup challenge seem signs of rude health, but the deficiencies of Manchester United, Arsenal and Liverpool have undermined Chelsea.

ADVERTISEMENT
Trouble was brewing at the group stage in the 1-0 defeat by Real Betis and the inability to score in either draw with Liverpool. Any assumption they would effortlessly return to a higher level when required was exposed as a delusion on Tuesday night.

If they are to be measured against Barcelona then a process of decay has occurred. Last season, Chelsea did lose at Camp Nou after Didier Drogba had been dismissed, but until his departure they had led 1-0 and should have scored on another occasion as they absorbed attacks and turned them into a launch pad for ventures of their own.

There was none of that to be seen this week. Rijkaard has learned from experience, with the inclusion of Edmilson and Thiago Motta introducing some steeliness to his otherwise idealistic conception of football. Even so, Chelsea were poorer. No amount of talk about the referee Terje Hauge's rulings in the first leg can disguise the fact.

Natural as it is for Mourinho to denounce the red card for Asier Del Horno at Stamford Bridge, it is a strange truth that the side's best spell of the whole tie came when they were without him there, at the opening of the second half. Whenever 11 Chelsea players faced 11 Barcelona players, the Premiership men were second best.

Mourinho will have to ask himself what changes might be necessary. He and Rafael Benitez, when they were respectively at Porto and Valencia, made a virtue out of their relative lack of money. They were the managers who exposed the decadence of the star system embodied by Real Madrid, putting the emphasis on strategic signings, preparation and tactical plans.

While Mourinho will return to the transfer market, the only haughty temperament permitted at Stamford Bridge will probably be his own. Within his own framework, though, a way has to be identified to encourage a degree of exuberance.

Chelsea might well ask themselves if it is really of benefit to turn Damien Duff into a drudge, running hard to get back and cover as well as to ferry the ball to the attack. His dashing display for the Republic of Ireland against Sweden last week was a reminder he can still be the exciting winger he once was.

Mourinho does require some game-changers and it was depressing at Camp Nou to see the side stuck in a rut. He needs to get more out of Arjen Robben and there are occasions when Joe Cole could be allowed to indulge in some individualism. Even Shaun Wright-Phillips might provide some of the missing unpredictability if he settles at Chelsea.

With Drogba looking clunky in Barcelona and Hernan Crespo's long-term attachment to the club being questioned, a new centre-forward may also be essential to bring focus to the attacks.

First of all Mourinho will have to sacrifice some of his own power by letting the more skilful players enjoy a degree of independence when everything rests on talent rather than tactics.




This is the point I was trying to make yesterday. Mourinho does like to have individual superstars because his ego is so big he wants to get all the attention.

[Dodge]

http://football.guardian.co.uk/fiver/

See the fiver for a better analysis

[londonirish17]

Also on this logic therefore you should go for the smallest club all the time. Do you shout for Southend if they play Sheff Wed. To be honest Sheff Wed would be one of the biggest clubs in the Championship so I presume most weeks you dont cheer for them. Did you chear for Israel V Ireland last year then.

Do not entirely agree with you on that point.
Of course nobody will argue with you over the fact that Barca have a strong squad, that their kind of playing is attractive not only to their fans but also to many neutrals. I think the point OF wants to make is that thanks to money you can (or at least you have the power) to attract big names which, of course, makes it much more easy to make it to the end. I got many friends who for sure will support teams like Villareal, Lyon or Benfica not because they themselves support smaller teams or play for smaller teams but those three clubs (Benfica perhaps being a little exception) have put many effort over the last couple of years to invest in youth and home grown talent.
That's also a reason why FC Porto deserved their title 2 years ago.
What's the point of spending 2 nights a week in front of your TV to see the same teams winning over and over again the CL ?

[Dodge]

I think his point was that there wouldn't be too many people unhappy if barca won it as at least they play good football. Of course most people (Irish anyway) will back the under dog)

BTW barca have only won it once (14 years ago...)

[NeilMcD]

Do not entirely agree with you on that point.
Of course nobody will argue with you over the fact that Barca have a strong squad, that their kind of playing is attractive not only to their fans but also to many neutrals. I think the point OF wants to make is that thanks to money you can (or at least you have the power) to attract big names which, of course, makes it much more easy to make it to the end. I got many friends who for sure will support teams like Villareal, Lyon or Benfica not because they themselves support smaller teams or play for smaller teams but those three clubs (Benfica perhaps being a little exception) have put many effort over the last couple of years to invest in youth and home grown talent.
That's also a reason why FC Porto deserved their title 2 years ago.
What's the point of spending 2 nights a week in front of your TV to see the same teams winning over and over again the CL ?


Porto have one the European Cup more times that Barcelona. I think that Barca have invested in home grown talent also. Puyol, Messi to name but too but there is a whole load more. I think Lyon are a joy to watch so I would not mind seeing them win. To be honest my original post was that Barca would be the neutrals choice and while there may be the odd exception of people going for Villareal, not sure why as they play pretty defensive football and have just as many foreign players as Barca do.

[wws]

Messi is an argie

[NeilMcD]

I know that but he has been at the club since he was 9.

[NeilMcD]

When they say homegrown or invest in youth talent I think Messi can fall under that category.

[klein4]

9??? thats messed up..
you have dug your own pedantic grave there anyway Neil.
he isnt from barcelona so he isnt homegrown talent. .
and is there that many actual homegrown players at barca? seemed a lot fo foreign players there as far as I could see...

[NeilMcD]

Not if you read the thread Klein. I was responding to London irish who said that Villareal and Porto have more homegrown players or invested in youth development than the likes of Barca have.

In the sense of bringing your own playes through well Messi is homegrown. If he was born in Madrid it would still not be homegrown so. Do we want the player to be born on the Nou camp and his mothers legs akimbo on the penalty spot. Homegrown in club footballing terms means been brought through the youth structure etc not the place of birth.

[klein4]

In the sense of bringing your own playes through well Messi is homegrown. .

Are you inventing your own language here or what? homegrown means homegrown...

[NeilMcD]

Ok so define a homegrown player in relation to club football then.

Is David Beckham homegrown for Man Utd as he was born in London

Is Gary Neville homegrown for Man utd as he was born in Bury

You can take this to the nth degree. To me homegrown in the context of producing players is a player that is developed by the club before they are a pro and makes it to the 1st team. Place of birth is not an issue because where do you draw the boundary of the place of birth

[wws]

Messi made his first team debut for Rosario when he was 8.

[NeilMcD]

What team was that though was it the senior team.

[Karlos]

Are you inventing your own language here or what? homegrown means homegrown...

not according to new UEFA rules.

Players such as Messi, Senderos etc are considered homegrown due to the number of years spent in youth development at a given club.

In a football sense the term 'homegrown' isn't linked to nationality according to both the World and European Governing bodies of the game.

[klein4]

liverpool to go out and arsenal to win competition outright.....

And also there are rules in england about where you can get your academy players from...so are uefa rules better than FA rules?????

[klein4]

What team was that though was it the senior team.
My God Neil!!!
Are you making a joke?????

[Dodge]

I know that but he has been at the club since he was 9.
No he ****ing didn't...

[NeilMcD]

Well in an interview he did for a a Uefa magazine programme he said that he was training with Barcelona since he was 9 and they have been giving him growth hormones to help him grow. He visited Barcelona regularly as a kid to train and meet the players. Pretty much the same way Beckham did also. In my view Messi is considered as homegrown as far as Barca is concerned the same way that Beckham is and Neville is for Utd and Senderos is for Arsenal. As karlos said nationality has nothing to do with this as its clubs we are talking about.

[NeilMcD]

My God Neil!!!
Are you making a joke?????


I am asking the question. The guy said He was in the Rosario 1st team at 8 so wondering what relevance that has to do with the thread.

[Dodge]

He joined Barcelona when he was 13. He was signed by them in Argentina. One of the main reasons his family moved was the medical support

[NeilMcD]

Did I say he signed for them at 9 no, I said that he was at the club from 9 which is fact.

[Karlos]

liverpool to go out and arsenal to win competition outright.....

And also there are rules in england about where you can get your academy players from...so are uefa rules better than FA rules?????

The FA have rules regarding players under a specific age (14, I believe) only being able to sign for a club within their catchment area. Uefa rule governs players trained during competitive developmental years (typically 14 and up) for a particular length of time at a club (e.g. Messi at Barca). The FA being members of UEFA will follow that rule.

In terms of football going forward, at Arsenal for example the likes of Fabregas, Sendreros, Lupoli etc will qualify as homegrown players despite starting their careers elsewhere and holding a different nationality due to years spent in youth development.

I'm open to correction on any of this but that's my undserstanding of the rule.