Irish Times - Dublin clubs in historic ground deal

[thejollyrodger]

Dublin clubs in historic ground deal
Emmet Malone Soccer correspondent




SOCCER: Bohemians and Shelbourne are believed to be within a matter of days of reaching an historic ground-sharing deal that would involve Tolka Park being sold off and Dalymount Park redeveloped into a modern all-seater stadium at a cost of around €15 million.

The FAI confirmed yesterday they have been overseeing talks which have been in progress for the last four weeks. They declined to comment further but representatives of the two clubs appear to be close to reaching the outline of an agreement that would then be taken away and submitted for ratification by the board of Shelbourne and the membership of their northside rivals.

It is unclear how long the deal might take to finalise but it does now seem the two clubs could both be playing out of the one stadium within a couple of years, something that would mark a major step forward in the implementation of the recommendations of the Genesis report.

"All we can say about the matter at this stage is that they've been talking and have made good progress," said FAI chief executive John Delaney yesterday. "Nothing is certain yet, but if it does happen I think it would be good for football in this country."

It is expected that, assuming a deal can be concluded, a considerable portion of the money raised by selling Tolka Park for redevelopment would be put into the transformation of Dalymount. The Government has previously indicated it would support such initiatives and so the project, which would probably involve the construction of a 12,000 to 15,000 all-seater stadium, is likely to receive substantial public funds.

Shelbourne had already signalled their intention to move out of their Drumcondra home but had previously set their sights on a move to a greenfield site in the northside suburbs.

Across the city, meanwhile, it is anticipated that a rethink by South Dublin County Council will result in the dropping of plans to develop the new stadium at Tallaght for Gaelic games as well as soccer. The possibility of a ground-share there involving St Patrick's Athletic as well as Shamrock Rovers had been hinted at but this would be made more difficult in the event that the GAA also had use of the facility.

It has been reported that the Department of Arts, Tourism and Sport might refuse to provide the funding required to complete the project if the council does not revert to its original plan to develop the ground for football only. A meeting of planners and councillors aimed at resolving the situation is expected to take place over the coming weeks.

"The issue of funding is something for the council and the department to resolve themselves, I couldn't comment on it," said Delaney. "What I would say, though, is that our preference would be that the ground be available for football. If it were, then there would certainly be the possibility of a ground-share while we are looking for somewhere in Dublin to play underage international games and that would certainly be an ideal venue."

While Shelbourne have relocated several times before, St Patrick's Athletic remain firmly rooted in the community of Inchicore where they were founded and there might be fierce resistance from sections of their fan base to any move. The club's chairman, Andy O'Callaghan, is believed to be sympathetic to the idea and Delaney confirmed yesterday very preliminary talks on the matter had taken place.

The proposals come at a time when other Eircom League clubs are also attempting to radically upgrade their facilities. Both Drogheda United and Finn Harps are working towards the construction of new stadiums on out-of-town sites while Athlone Town's is already under construction. Derry City, Waterford United and Cork City are upgrading their venues.



© The Irish Times

It seems as though it isnt only Shelbourne F.C and Bohemians F.C that are entertainting the notion of ground sharing. There may well be a second ground sharing ground in Dublin.

15,000 all seater stadium would just mean 7,000 seats for both clubs. Nothing spectacular about that. However if its built modularly and to a decent standard it might be a very nice stadium indeed. The devil is in the detail as they say.

Good to hear that the GAA clubs are not being entertained out in Tallaght. Would the saints really move there though ?? Maybe a Bray and Saint Pats might be on the cards.

[BohDiddley]

This effectively is the shafting of Dublin football fans of whatever hue, with total disregard for the scale of potential support, based on unquestioning acceptance of Genesis.
These people are playing Russian roulette with Irish football.

[Roverstillidie]

same soft spin in the metro. the delaney kite flying operation in full swing.

i reckon its on on the northside at least. too much money involved and i dont think the gypo board (not membership, they will go ape) have the balls to turn it down.

[Dodge]

Our chairman told us he didn't meet delaney

[Passive]

The situation at Tallaght is out of our hands, it's a matter between the SDCC, FAI, Department of Sport and St. Pats. The Department have already said that they will not fund the stadium is the GAA are also going to use it. The FAI and Dept want a stadium on the south of the city for football and the GAA, given all the subsidies they continue to get across the country, will have to just accept that.

My personal guess is that Rovers will be in Tallaght next season, at which stage Pats will sell Richmond and construct Phase 2 of the Tallaght stadium. Meanwhile, Shels will redevelop the Shed and Connaught St sides of Dalymount.

It's clearly what Delaney wants and, presuming he can stay in power long enough, I reckon he'll get it.

[thejollyrodger]

The major problem I have with ground sharing is the fact that you are going to have a lot of problems trying to attract two seperate kind of supporters around the one location. Its going to be very hard for Shels to build up a loyal supporter base when they Gypos are already there.

Its ok for Internazionale and A.C Milan. They have an entire city to share and the city is Milan( 4 million including the hinterland) for Christs sake not a small 1.5 million city.

Christ, the FAI have their hands all over the E.L already. Its smells of a dead cat.

[Roverstillidie]

tolka and dalymount are less than a mile apart, so thats nonsense to begin.

i dont have a problem with groundsharing per say, if roma and lazio can do it..., but the fact that the FAI are forcing clubs into it on threat of loss of league places.

[BohDiddley]

The major problem I have with ground sharing is the fact that you are going to have a lot of problems trying to attract two seperate kind of supporters around the one location. Its going to be very hard for Shels to build up a loyal supporter base when they Gypos are already there.

Its ok for Internazionale and A.C Milan. They have an entire city to share and the city is Milan( 4 million including the hinterland) for Christs sake not a small 1.5 million city.

Christ, the FAI have their hands all over the E.L already. Its smells of a dead cat.
Your masters might have thought of that before forfeiting their natural hinterland. Shels have no roots in their current location. I really don't see how it serves Bohs to help them settle now.

[paudie]

I really don't see how it serves Bohs to help them settle now.

Except that you will presumably get substantial grants to develop Dalymount as a 15,000 all seater stadium.

[ThatGuy]

Except that you will presumably get substantial grants to develop Dalymount as a 15,000 all seater stadium.
And a substantial pay-off from selling 50% of our ground which would make us the richest club in Ireland.

[bohsmug]

tolka and dalymount are less than a mile apart, so thats nonsense to begin.



and that doesn't work, which is why shels wanted to move to Donabate (at least publicly). The fact that the grounds are so close has been a major issue and owning stands facing each other in the same ground is hardly gonna solve it.

[Bald Student]

Do the clubs really want a 15,000 seater ground? Tolka is too big as it is.

I think I'd rather a smaller ground and move big european games to Lansdown, even if it's going to be half empty for the game. A half empty stadium on a european night is better than a half empty stadium every league match.

[Dodge]

lads its not been done for the clubs. Read Delaney's comments in the IT thy want smaller stadiums for underage games, cup finls and smaller internationals

[thejollyrodger]

There is a 20,000 seater stadium going out in Abbotstown btw. Who is going to use that ? Shels or someone could move there ?

[ThatGuy]

There is a 20,000 seater stadium going out in Abbotstown btw. Who is going to use that ? Shels or someone could move there ?
That's news to me.

[Dodge]

Notice none of the FAi statements/leaks mention Dalymount, maybe you'll both be out there...

[thejollyrodger]

Its going to be for U21's and training as well. Thats where the new football acadamy is going also.

[pete]

Ground sharing based on current location of Bohs & Shels makes sense as neither lcub really attracts much support from immeadiate locality.

Can Dalymount be improved to 15k as current stand only holds 3k & would be difficult to expand the other 3 sides to take even 3k each?

I think this stadium may be in lieu of Abbotstown as clearly be no need for both stadiums.

If could get 12k seats in Phibsboro would it attract Leinster for Heineken Cup games as Donnybrook only holds 7k i think...?

I heard talk of temporary ground share until Shels get new stadium completed in north dublin. Could this be still on the cards?

[Bald Student]

If could get 12k seats in Phibsboro would it attract Leinster for Heineken Cup games as Donnybrook only holds 7k i think...?Donnybrook is being expanded and phibsborough is on the north-side. Also, three teams, one rugby, in a stadium is a bad idea.

[Block G Raptor]

I'm Undecided on this, On one hand the prospect of dalymount becoming a 15,000 seat stadium with good facilities is certainly enticing and could and I stress Could contribute to raising attendances. On the other hand if as rumour suggests ground sharing is a stepping stone to a Bohs/Shels merger or amalgamation or what ever fancy term they use these day's then obviously it's a big no no as I'm sure fans of both club's will agree. In reality though do we really need two half empty stadiums a mile apart ?

[BohDiddley]

Ground sharing based on current location of Bohs & Shels makes sense as neither lcub really attracts much support from immeadiate locality.

Can Dalymount be improved to 15k as current stand only holds 3k & would be difficult to expand the other 3 sides to take even 3k each?

I think this stadium may be in lieu of Abbotstown as clearly be no need for both stadiums.

If could get 12k seats in Phibsboro would it attract Leinster for Heineken Cup games as Donnybrook only holds 7k i think...?

I heard talk of temporary ground share until Shels get new stadium completed in north dublin. Could this be still on the cards?
The mere fact that this folly is greeted with such a chorus of approval from provincial clubs, who at best couldn't give a hoot, speaks for itself.
This thing stinks from top to bottom. There is money in the system for Irish football: let it be distributed fairly, without favour and without strings.
I'm loathe to put an argument for it, but Bohs could as easily sell Dalymount for a packet at full commercial value and move to a greenfield site. Philistine as that may be, I think it would be more acceptable to many than sharing with an imposter.
I don't see why we should have our arm twisted on this one.

[thejollyrodger]

I dont really back ground sharing because when one club starts to do poorly the first thing people think of is amalagation. I dont want to become Bohs F.C and would rather stay in our own ground.

Plus the point about trying to get supporters from the same local area as bohs has been totally ignored by everyone.

A 15,000+ all seater stadium would be fantastic both for Bohs and the league but at the end of the day one of the two clubs are going to loose out. I know donabate is a bit out of the way but transportation links in the next decade should improve and so too should the population of Swords.

[CollegeTillIDie]

So what about the Dublin City/ UCD ground share? And where does that leaf
Runaround Sue FC... sorry The Wanderers? Well I knew it was one Dion song or other they were named after :D

[LFC in Exile]

This boils down to whether or not you believethere is a finite amount of money available to eL clubs. The eL is a poor league (in the monetary sense) and it makes no sense whatsoever to have clubs sitting on huge assets while there facilities remain poor relative to those in other sports. It makes no sense for clubs to borrow to fund ground development when there is no requirement to do so. It also makes no sense for the government to grant aid two, three or four ground developments located within five to ten miles of each other. If I was minister for sport I would flatly refuse to provide any funding to two grounds (Tolka and Dalymount) so close to each other.

And by the way, the non-Dublin based eL supporters aren't really greeting this with "a chorus of approval" - a lot don't care - but it makes sense for all clubs that when money is distributed centrally that it is spent to maximum effect. If the non-Dublin fans were being hungry about this they'd object to any money being spent in Dublin - but that's not the case. Its just that money should be spent wisely. :ball:

[anto eile]

Our chairman told us he didn't meet delaney
chairmen have been known to tell lies from time-to-time:p

[anto eile]

Do the clubs really want a 15,000 seater ground? Tolka is too big as it is.

I think I'd rather a smaller ground and move big european games to Lansdown, even if it's going to be half empty for the game. A half empty stadium on a european night is better than a half empty stadium every league match.
you wouldnt fit or need 15000 seats in dalymount.residents would complain about it and that would be a can of worms.
theres 2742 seats in the jodi.400 soon to be in the shopping centre end.room for 1500 in the shed.that would mean a redeveloped connacht st would ideally have 5500 to bring the cappacity to just over 10,000. this would mean the stand runing the full length of the pitch, and at a height no bigger,even slightly smaller, than it is now
though it would also mean the gypos would lose out on 10s of thousands of euro a year in revenue form the loss of the car park
anyway its all hypothtical for the moment

[sullanefc]

Plus the point about trying to get supporters from the same local area as bohs has been totally ignored by everyone.



Liverpool and Everton play in the same area of Liverpool and are able to attract separate supporters.

How close are Tolka and Dalymount? Less than a mile? In a big city like Dublin, I don't think it is your location that will attract supporters it's the football on the pitch. Get them going to games in the first place, get them hooked, and let them decide which team they prefer. Not telling ye what to do, just my opinion.

From the Governments point of view, it makes more sense to fund one decent ground rather than 2 that are very close to each other. Play your cards right and both clubs could have a very nice ground indeed.

[Poor Student]

In Ireland and particularly Dublin due to the small nature of our clubs it's all about location. Chances are someone living in say Donaghmede their whole life isn't going to support Pat's and attend their games regularly no matter how well they do. Our clubs generally don't have that wide proximity appeal of EPL clubs.

[sullanefc]

In Ireland and particularly Dublin due to the small nature of our clubs it's all about location. Chances are someone living in say Donaghmede their whole life is going to support Pat's and attend their games regularly no matter how well they do. Our clubs generally don't have that wide proximity appeal of EPL clubs.

I take your point. But the current grounds are not up to scratch and money needs to be spent on them. The Government aren't going to spend money on 6 shiny new stadiums for Bohs, Shels, Rovers, Pats, UCD and CHF are they? It makes more sense to ground share. A clubs catchement area doesn't necessarily have to be where there ground is does it? It could be their training ground is, or maybe a club shop or club bar could be set up in the clubs "area".

[Student Mullet]

Tolka Park has a capacity of about 12,000 (I'm sure someone has the correct figure). The proposed new ground will have the capacity of about 15,000. So the main benefit of this move is an increase in capacity of about 3,000.
The main cost is the loss of a stadium about a mile from the city centre.

To me the cost seems greater than the benefit. Both clubs will also end up with a fair bit of cash in the bank and will be able to pay off whatever debts they have. This, to me, seems like using a capital asset to meet current expenditure which is a classic example of bad business.

[Philo]

Shels are on their knees - they don't own Tolka and have no more income than any other non-league winning club. Debts are mounting and Mr Byrne and Mr Delaney are very good friends.

Bohs have debts and a team that sucks for Ireland but we do OWN OUTRIGHT a ground (6 acres) just one mile from O'Connell St.

The FAI and Shels are approaching Bohs with an "offer" that will "save" us from our debts by paying us a fraction of the worth to sell over 50 percent of the land that we own. FAI scare tactics are being employed to bail out Shels and monoeuvre Bohs into a situation from which we cannot control our own destiny. There is no way Dalyer can be developed into a 15,000 seat stadium due to it being hemmed in on two sides by houses, one side by a primary school and on the remaining side by a shops/appartments development.

Everything points to an ultimate move to Abbotstown for both Shels and Bohs where the clubs will be little more than FAI owned puppets as Delaney and co attempt to push into Champions League territory.

Anyone who supports these current developments has absolutely no concern for what's best for Irish football and the idea of independent clubs competing in an open and fair league. The FAI has never previously shown any interest in league matters, now they are trying to re-mould it to suit themselves.

[Student Mullet]

I presume this will have to be put to a vote of the members, Philo. Have you spoken to many? What's the feeling on the ground?

[bohs til i die]

I take your point. But the current grounds are not up to scratch and money needs to be spent on them. The Government aren't going to spend money on 6 shiny new stadiums for Bohs, Shels, Rovers, Pats, UCD and CHF are they? It makes more sense to ground share. A clubs catchement area doesn't necessarily have to be where there ground is does it? It could be their training ground is, or maybe a club shop or club bar could be set up in the clubs "area".


Groundshare isnt such a bad idea, but this pArticular deal as it stands is TOTALLY WRONG

[Marked Man]

Chances are someone living in say Donaghmede their whole life is going to support Pat's and attend their games regularly no matter how well they do.


Why would someone living in Donaghmede support Pat's? That's on the other side of the city.

[CollegeTillIDie]

In Ireland and particularly Dublin due to the small nature of our clubs it's all about location. Chances are someone living in say Donaghmede their whole life is going to support Pat's and attend their games regularly no matter how well they do. Our clubs generally don't have that wide proximity appeal of EPL clubs.

I live in that Area and follow UCD that was because I went to UCD.

The only EL fans I knew growing up were 1 Rovers fan and 1 Bohs fan. Nobody else was a dyed in the wool EL fan. They were what has become the norm sadly in this country besotted with what would now be called the English Premiership. But they had one saving grace . Every year the whole group went to see one or other of Bohs or Rovers play with our dyed in the wool fans.

It is untrue to say that some of the newer parts of the city ( i.e. less than 40 years old) would en masse support any particular EL club. Shels used to have buses running from here to bring support to Tolka. And one night when UCD were playing in Tolka I availed of the bus to get there and to get home.

[CollegeTillIDie]

In Ireland and particularly Dublin due to the small nature of our clubs it's all about location. Chances are someone living in say Donaghmede their whole life is going to support Pat's and attend their games regularly no matter how well they do. Our clubs generally don't have that wide proximity appeal of EPL clubs.

I live in that Area and follow UCD that was because I went to UCD.

The only EL fans I knew growing up were 1 Rovers fan and 1 Bohs fan. Nobody else was a dyed in the wool EL fan. They were what has become the norm sadly in this country besotted with what would now be called the English Premiership. But they had one saving grace . Every year the whole group went to see one or other of Bohs or Rovers play with our dyed in the wool fans.

It is untrue to say that some of the newer parts of the city ( i.e. less than 40 years old) would en masse support any particular EL club. Shels used to have buses running from here to bring support to Tolka. And one night when UCD were playing in Tolka I availed of the bus to get there and to get home.

[Poor Student]

Why would someone living in Donaghmede support Pat's? That's on the other side of the city.

That's the exact point I was making.

[Dodge]

Why would someone living in Donaghmede support Pat's?
because its the right thing to do...

[pete]

Wasn't this all rumoured 6 months ago as a temporary arrangement while shels built a new stadium? AFAIK shels will be homeless when tolka is sold as new stadium is years away yet. I heard before that shels would shre for 4-5 years by building a new stand which bohs would keep when they left...?

I'd be surprised if any deal was done & more than likely bohs are just humouring the FAI wishes to talk. Bohs will just come back & say they couldn't agree a deal.

[Marked Man]

That's the exact point I was making.

Then shouldn't you have said "chances are slim" that someone from Donaghmede would support Pats, rather than "chances are"?

[Poor Student]

Then shouldn't you have said "chances are slim" that someone from Donaghmede would support Pats, rather than "chances are"?

I don't know if you're just being pedantic or were really mislead but it was a simple typo. It's corrected, I said 'chances are someone is' instead of 'chances are someone isn't'.