IFA and the Maze

[A face]

Wil it happen or not, and if it does .... is it a good thing ??

40,000+ seater, for GAA, Rugby and football. Linfields ground will reduce capacity then.

[Block G Raptor]

Nice Idea, But I think One H-Block should be left standing as a permanent reminder/memorial to all prisoners who served time there from all sides of the political divide

[Gerrit]

A big NO if you ask me. A point also taken by the lads of the South Belfast NISC where I drink.

The Maze is way out of the civilised world, while they have a ground now at walking distance of Belfast city centre. Why not just expanding Windsor? There is place for some expansion, no spectacular maybe but definitely play for a few thousands extra.

[Dodge]

Why not just expanding Windsor?
Because Windsor will never be a seen as a ground for all of Northern Ireland. it has way too much baggage and its physical location doens't help...

A new greenfield site would be the only hope 9if any) of a ground welcomed by both communities

[Gerrit]

Geographically Windsor is excellently located, the facilities are there already, the only thing one can have against it is that it is property of Linfield. But Linfield have clearly done good effords to lose the sectarian element, so maybe the IFA should look forward instead of looking back, and looking forward means that both location-wise and money-wise expanding Windsor would be a better idea than a stadium somewhere in the outskirts of Lisburn.

[pete]

No chance for all the changes that Windsor will not always be associated with loyalism.

I thought there was good support for a Greenfield site but maybe no agreement on where that would be?

[dcfc_1928]

Keeping Windsor would be the worst possible option.

Not only does it give Linfield an extremely unfair financial advantage, its very location prevents many people from going to matches.

The Ormeau Park suggestion is a complete nonsense. I lived at the edge of Ormeau Park for 5 years and there just is not the space to build a stadium with sufficient parking etc.

Also why destroy one of the nicest areas of park in Central Belfast to build a stadium?

As Jimmy Boyce said, the Maze option is the "only game in town".

The government are handing a 40,000 seater stadium to the IFA on a plate.

It is the only option that has football, rugby and GAA on board - and that was a pre-requisite for government funding,

There will be no other option and if this isn't accepted, the funding from government will not be forthcoming.

The Maze site is easily accessible from all parts of Northern Ireland - it is right beside the M1.

It seems to be mainly Belfast people who are complaining about the location of the stadium - but there a lot of potential users of the stadium who are based outside of Belfast.

[A face]

That is about the size of it from what i can see ... the gov are handing it to them, for god sake please let them have the sense to make the right decision on this one. It is hard not to make the right one too !!! :eek: :ball:

[dcfcsteve]

Geographically Windsor is excellently located, the facilities are there already, the only thing one can have against it is that it is property of Linfield. But Linfield have clearly done good effords to lose the sectarian element, so maybe the IFA should look forward instead of looking back, and looking forward means that both location-wise and money-wise expanding Windsor would be a better idea than a stadium somewhere in the outskirts of Lisburn.

Sorry Gerrit - but you just don't get it. It's another example of where you're just not grasping the less-than-subtleties to life in Northern Ireland. Everything you've said may well seem logical to you, or anyone else not from this part of the world. But it's Belfast we're talking about here - not Belgium....

Read the responses of everyone else on this thread. Doesn't matter what you do to Linfield's ground - nothing short of flattening it and building it afresh from scratch in a different shape would erase the fact that it's not a neutral ground. It has far too long an association with a very one-sided club, and that association would be ongoing in any 'national' stadium that was developed there.

And even if you were to flatten Windsor, hoof out Linfield, and rebuild the ground afresh in a different shape - it'd STILL be located in a staunchly Loyalist working class area. So nothing short of local ethnic cleansing could lead to Windsor EVER being seen as neutral !

Sure why not build it up in Andersonstown instead......? :rolleyes:

P.S. I suspect strongly that the vast majority of yer buddies in the South Belfast NISC are from the community that would have little fear walking through the Village area.....

[motorcycleman]

So nothing short of local ethnic cleansing could lead to Windsor EVER being seen as neutral !

That mindset says it all.
How neutral and welcoming is the Brandywell to the unionist community of "Stroke" City or anywhere in the Republic of Ireland for that matter ?.
No matter what N.I. football does it will never be enough.

No to the Maze.

[dcfc_1928]

One minor point - the Brandywell isn't the "national" stadium.

Anyway, the IFA approved the Maze stadium plan last night.

Fair play!


So nothing short of local ethnic cleansing could lead to Windsor EVER being seen as neutral !

That mindset says it all.
How neutral and welcoming is the Brandywell to the unionist community of "Stroke" City or anywhere in the Republic of Ireland for that matter ?.
No matter what N.I. football does it will never be enough.

No to the Maze.

[A face]

Anyway, the IFA approved the Maze stadium plan last night.

The job .... fair play to them. It was a no brainer but its good the made the right choice. All boads well for footie up north.

[dcfcsteve]

So nothing short of local ethnic cleansing could lead to Windsor EVER being seen as neutral !

That mindset says it all.
How neutral and welcoming is the Brandywell to the unionist community of "Stroke" City or anywhere in the Republic of Ireland for that matter ?

It's not a mindset. It was an exaggeration to try to highlight the complexity of the situation to a consitently naive Belgian. I suppose you'll use it anyway to claim that I'm advocating ethnic cleansing of the Village before any Fenian dares to set foot at a Norn Iron game..... :rolleyes:

As for the Brandywell :
Firstly - it isn't, nor does it claim to be, and nor has it ever claimed to be, a 'national stadium'.
Secondly - given the demographics of the City of Derry in general, and the West Bank of ther Foyle in particular - it should come as no surprise that the ground is in a nationalist area. Shock horror....
Thirdly - how welcoming is the Oval to the Nationalist community or 'Solitude' to the Unionist community ? And what feckin relevance does it have to a national stadium anyway ??
Fourthly - how welcoming is "anywhere in the Republic of Ireland" to the Unionst community ?!?! :eek: Oh dear - I think that's the only mndset being exposed here. Start by asking the numerous Orange bands who happily and peacefully march in Donegal every 12th July. Then progress onto taking a wee trip south of the border yourself sometime. You might just be surprised...


No matter what N.I. football does it will never be enough.

Again with the embattled mindset, and the feeling that Northern Ireland football has somehow been bending over backwards to breaking-point in doing all within its grasp to keep those pesky Fenians happy. Oh dear...

No to stupidity....

[Gerrit]

Steve, you are right: the people in the South Belfast NISC are mostly (if not all) Loyalists. Most people follow Linfield, NI, and Rangers. So I am not saying it's the most neutral place -- however, I may drink there often, please don't call them 'buddies'. It's not because it's the pub I frequent that all people in it are suddenly close friends or so. I try to stay neutral in the whole thing and have people I go on with in both communities.

Don't picture me having become a loyalist or so who goes drinking in his unionist den. That NISC is just close to my home (I happen to live very close to Sandy Row) and they broadcast lot of games ; I drink there because of the football and not because of the fact that the other pub visitors are unionists.

One thing though: one reason to not move away from Windsor: the nationalists will very likely keep on supporting the Republic. Fair play to them, they have the choice to support whoever they want, no problems there. But should the IFA move out of a perfectly fine stadium to please a group of people of which 95% will still prefer supporting the South?
I invite you to check www.ukfootballforums.net, where there's many Northern Irish as well. However, here most NI members are nationalists and you hear another story than there at ukfootballforums.net, where most are unionist. Read their arguments not to ditch GSTQ and not to move out of Windsor.
I won't choose a side in the whole thing, it's not up to immigrants to say what the locals should do or think. I just say, I think what they write on that board (and what Motorcycleman also posts here) does make sense.

We already have the Football For All campaign here in the North, Linfield -the symbol of Unionism in NI football- tries very hard to ditch any sectarian element, and so far the hatred towards 'fenians' has been banned with success (remember the comments on the Linfield board after a few nuts sang the Billly Boys in Longford ? All true Bluemen were deeply ashamed). Linfield by the way also opened Windsor Park a few times to GAA games.
Seriously, effords are being made. If after all of this Windsor still doesn't qualify, then maybe it's the nationalist side who is not willing to try to forget the past?

Financially Linfield has a sort of unfair profit indeed. However, it doesn't stop even their bitter rivals Glentoran of running a very active NISC which frequents the games at Windsor.

[dcfcsteve]

Steve, you are right: the people in the South Belfast NISC are mostly (if not all) Loyalists. Most people follow Linfield, NI, and Rangers. So I am not saying it's the most neutral place -- however, I may drink there often, please don't call them 'buddies'. It's not because it's the pub I frequent that all people in it are suddenly close friends or so. I try to stay neutral in the whole thing and have people I go on with in both communities.

Don't picture me having become a loyalist or so who goes drinking in his unionist den. That NISC is just close to my home (I happen to live very close to Sandy Row) and they broadcast lot of games ; I drink there because of the football and not because of the fact that the other pub visitors are unionists.

Apologies if it seemed I was accusing you of taking a side Gerrit. However - you did use the word "lads" to describe them, which is a fairly amiable term suggesting you were familiar/friendly with them. Regardless - I've no bone with you being friendly with anyone, as that that wasn't my point.


One thing though: one reason to not move away from Windsor: the nationalists will very likely keep on supporting the Republic. Fair play to them, they have the choice to support whoever they want, no problems there. But should the IFA move out of a perfectly fine stadium to please a group of people of which 95% will still prefer supporting the South?

This arguement always comes up, and to be honest it exposes the deeply limited mindset involved. Seeking to make the Northern Irish international football experience more appealing and inviting to the Nationalist community shouldn't be done or not done on the basis of the impact it'll have (which is only ever considered in the very immediate term) on 'bums on seats'. It should be done because it is the right thing to do. Simple as that.

Northern Ireland has been a deeply divided society for decades. It is thankfully now at the stage where those divisons are getting narrower rather than wider. Every facet of NI public life as a role to play in continuing that positive momentum, and football is no different. If the IFA do everything within their power to 'neutralise' the Northern Irish international football experience and Nationalists still refuse to turn-up, then they can hold their hands up with a clear conscious and say "Well we've genuinely done our bit for the future of this proviince". They wiill still get the plaudits, and those within the Nationalist community who are perceived as using the Northern Ireland team as a political football will be forced to shut the feck up. Those things alone should be reason enough to make the required changes - not merely a desire to have a few more people come and support the team.


Read their arguments not to ditch GSTQ and not to move out of Windsor.

I know the arguements Gerrit - I've had them recited to me numerous times. Most I can relate to, and some I accept. I completely fail to accept the retention of GSTQ as the sole anthem played at NI international games though, and I'm convinced that it is in-fact indefensible. Even the Welsh and Scots don't do it, nor does the Irish rugby team. If you argue with someone on this issue their defence inevitably crystalises down to identity, politics and this ridiculous belief that they've 'given too much already - no more'. That is because it is entirely indefensible to try to use solely a one-sided anthem to represent a divided community. Common sense even supports this. I'm happy to debate this issue with any one in a separate thread if required.


We already have the Football For All campaign here in the North, Linfield -the symbol of Unionism in NI football- tries very hard to ditch any sectarian element, and so far the hatred towards 'fenians' has been banned with success (remember the comments on the Linfield board after a few nuts sang the Billly Boys in Longford ? All true Bluemen were deeply ashamed). Linfield by the way also opened Windsor Park a few times to GAA games.
Seriously, effords are being made. If after all of this Windsor still doesn't qualify, then maybe it's the nationalist side who is not willing to try to forget the past?

Your absolutely right re Linfield, and the club and the majority of its fans are to be applauded for that (although they haven't opened Windsor park to GAA games. Just their training grounds to a camogie team. Not to take away from the positivity of that gesture).

Bottom line is that Windsor will cease being the International stadium once the maze project is up-and-running. That suggests that those in the positions of power and decision-making looked at the situation and decided that Windsor wasn't ideal - for a variety of reasons. So you're right - let's ALL forget the past, and look forward to a cracking new stadium at the Maze. I can't wait to catch a game there...

[MariborKev]

A big NO if you ask me. A point also taken by the lads of the South Belfast NISC where I drink.

You drink in the South Belfast NISC?:eek: :eek: :eek:

Fair play to you

That place gets a very bad rep, and they turned away the lads from the Queens NISC after a recent game.

[Plastic man]

You drink in the South Belfast NISC?:eek: :eek: :eek:

Fair play to you

That place gets a very bad rep, and they turned away the lads from the Queens NISC after a recent game.

Don't feel too bad, they turned away Callum Best on the night of his fathers funeral, as amazing as it seems, totally true, it could only happen in Northern Ireland!

[Plastic man]

Northern Ireland has been a deeply divided society for decades. It is thankfully now at the stage where those divisons are getting narrower rather than wider. Every facet of NI public life as a role to play in continuing that positive momentum, and football is no different. If the IFA do everything within their power to 'neutralise' the Northern Irish international football experience and Nationalists still refuse to turn-up, then they can hold their hands up with a clear conscious and say "Well we've genuinely done our bit for the future of this proviince". They wiill still get the plaudits, and those within the Nationalist community who are perceived as using the Northern Ireland team as a political football will be forced to shut the feck up. Those things alone should be reason enough to make the required changes - not merely a desire to have a few more people come and support the team.


Agree with most of that post apart from the above, if the population of Northern Ireland is getting less divided how come the two biggest political parties are now the DUP and Sinn Fein!

[dcfcsteve]

Agree with most of that post apart from the above, if the population of Northern Ireland is getting less divided how come the two biggest political parties are now the DUP and Sinn Fein!

Even a cursory comparison of the way life was 5, 10, 20 years ago supports that things have changed a lot.

As we all know - elections cause the people of Northern Ireland to temporarily clamber into their sectarian trenches. This will continue for a considerable period of time, but doesn't negate the evidence of change that is evident everywhere else.

I'd also argue that SF and the DUP are the 2 parties best placed to continue the narrowing of the divide - as there's no-one more 'extreme' looking over their shoulder to criticise them and keep them in-check (which is what crippled the UUP).

And sooner or later SF and the DUP will start talking to each other directly and - shock, horror - form an administration in the Assembly. It happens at Council level - where for years you couldn't even get them into the same chamber at the same time. So regardless of who people vote for, the change is still there for all to see....

[Gerrit]

Apologies if it seemed I was accusing you of taking a side Gerrit. However - you did use the word "lads" to describe them, which is a fairly amiable term suggesting you were familiar/friendly with them. Regardless - I've no bone with you being friendly with anyone, as that that wasn't my point.


Isn't a "lad" just slang for a man?

Anyway, some of them are 'drinking buddies' (that I never see outside of the bar however), but the people here I deal with regularly are mixed. Some are nationalist, some are loyalist. It's also not an issue I often talk about with them, and as long as I get along with someone I get to know here I don't care if he/she is nationalist or loyalist.



This arguement always comes up, and to be honest it exposes the deeply limited mindset involved. Seeking to make the Northern Irish international football experience more appealing and inviting to the Nationalist community shouldn't be done or not done on the basis of the impact it'll have (which is only ever considered in the very immediate term) on 'bums on seats'. It should be done because it is the right thing to do. Simple as that.

Northern Ireland has been a deeply divided society for decades. It is thankfully now at the stage where those divisons are getting narrower rather than wider. Every facet of NI public life as a role to play in continuing that positive momentum, and football is no different. If the IFA do everything within their power to 'neutralise' the Northern Irish international football experience and Nationalists still refuse to turn-up, then they can hold their hands up with a clear conscious and say "Well we've genuinely done our bit for the future of this proviince". They wiill still get the plaudits, and those within the Nationalist community who are perceived as using the Northern Ireland team as a political football will be forced to shut the feck up. Those things alone should be reason enough to make the required changes - not merely a desire to have a few more people come and support the team.

Agree. No one brought up this argument before in a debate I was involved in, but you are right.

One condition though I think is that if this new neutrally-placed stadium is out of Belfast, is that special bus services from belfast are organised to the stadium and back. Otherwise I'm afraid that for both travelling fans and home support the location could be a disadvantage. Also, opening a few pubs next to the site may be a good idea, as currently it seems a bit out of the vivid areas... Guess the IFA can make an agreement with Ulsterbus for special bus services though.




I know the arguements Gerrit - I've had them recited to me numerous times. Most I can relate to, and some I accept. I completely fail to accept the retention of GSTQ as the sole anthem played at NI international games though, and I'm convinced that it is in-fact indefensible. Even the Welsh and Scots don't do it, nor does the Irish rugby team. If you argue with someone on this issue their defence inevitably crystalises down to identity, politics and this ridiculous belief that they've 'given too much already - no more'. That is because it is entirely indefensible to try to use solely a one-sided anthem to represent a divided community. Common sense even supports this. I'm happy to debate this issue with any one in a separate thread if required.

I personally would say a different anthem would be nice, but that's just my idea. It seems the majority of fans hold on to GSTQ.

I'd say Danny Boy/Londonderry Heir would be a good alternative (or why not even "Alternative Ulster" by Stiff Little Fingers ?: cross-community, pro-peace and anti-sectarian, and nicely rocking :D )



Your absolutely right re Linfield, and the club and the majority of its fans are to be applauded for that (although they haven't opened Windsor park to GAA games. Just their training grounds to a camogie team. Not to take away from the positivity of that gesture).


Fair play to you and any nationalist who will admit that. I sometimes attend Linfield games (I live close to Windsor, that's why. I am definitely not a true LFC fan) and have not come across any sectarian element at all. Unless you consider it sectarian when the Linfield fans hooray when the speaker announces Celtic has lost, but that's not sectarian an sich.

What stops me from actively following Linfield by the way (which would be easy for me given the location) is the bond with Rangers, which unlike Linfield did not purify itself from sectarianism.

[Dassa]

The job .... fair play to them. It was a no brainer but its good the made the right choice. All boads well for footie up north.

Its far from the right choice we currently have 14,000 fans attending matches and the stadium is going to be 42,000 where are these extra fans coming from. Would ROI fans be happy if the government took away Landsdowne and built you a stadium miles outside of Dublin in a field with no amenities. All the fun of going to international matches the craic in the city before the matches with away fans will be gone. the day the stadium is opened is the end of football up here

New stadium for Belfast is only sensible option.

This idea that it is only Belfast people against the Maze is nonsense, Im from Armagh and so the Maze would be closer for me than Belfast.

[Speranza]

How have you not come across any sectarian element Linfield fans sing The Billy Boys and other "party" songs as they call them.

[anto eile]

Geographically Windsor is excellently located, the facilities are there already, the only thing one can have against it is that it is property of Linfield. But Linfield have clearly done good effords to lose the sectarian element, so maybe the IFA should look forward instead of looking back, and looking forward means that both location-wise and money-wise expanding Windsor would be a better idea than a stadium somewhere in the outskirts of Lisburn.
very naive/innnocent/foolish comments gerrit

[A face]

Its far from the right choice we currently have 14,000 fans attending matches and the stadium is going to be 42,000 where are these extra fans coming from.

14,000? Windsor Park holds 20,000+ i thought, is Windsor not full on match day? Anyway, the fact that it is not Windsor might mean there will be more crowds there, nad the fact that it will be modern etc.
Also the fact that ye are beating sides like England for fun might mean a few new faces too yeah !?!


Would ROI fans be happy if the government took away Landsdowne and built you a stadium miles outside of Dublin

Yeah, estatic ... and i have the prefect place for it in Cork !! :eek: :p


All the fun of going to international matches the craic in the city before the matches with away fans will be gone.

I doubt that .... matchday will still be great, even if it were on the moon, you'll still have a good laugh.

[dcfcsteve]

Its far from the right choice we currently have 14,000 fans attending matches and the stadium is going to be 42,000 where are these extra fans coming from. Would ROI fans be happy if the government took away Landsdowne and built you a stadium miles outside of Dublin in a field with no amenities. All the fun of going to international matches the craic in the city before the matches with away fans will be gone. the day the stadium is opened is the end of football up here

New stadium for Belfast is only sensible option.

This idea that it is only Belfast people against the Maze is nonsense, Im from Armagh and so the Maze would be closer for me than Belfast.

Feck Dassa - ROI fans would be ecstatic if they got a stadium out of the FAI on the moon !

And as for building stadiums miles outside of cities in a field with no amenities - well everyone seems to love the Stade de France...

[Dassa]

windsor holds 14,000 seated and thats international capacity. Stadiums built outside of cities arent normally a success you just have to look at new stadium on the outskirts of Istanbull were there has been alot of complaints about distance to be travelled.

I dont believe either that most ROI fans would be happy to have stadium built out in the country with no railway station near it or atmosphere around it.

[pete]

windsor holds 14,000 seated and thats international capacity. Stadiums built outside of cities arent normally a success you just have to look at new stadium on the outskirts of Istanbull were there has been alot of complaints about distance to be travelled.


If the government said they would not redevelop Lansdowne but would build a 60-70k seater stadium for free outside Dublin then ROI fans would accept it. Redeveloping Windsor surely gives Linfield an unfair advantage financially?

[dcfcsteve]

If the government said they would not redevelop Lansdowne but would build a 60-70k seater stadium for free outside Dublin then ROI fans would accept it. Redeveloping Windsor surely gives Linfield an unfair advantage financially?

Spot on Peter.

Dassa - beggers can't be choosers. ROI fans would love exclusive use of Croke Park, or a brand new shiny 50,000 seater slap-bang in a nice part of Dublin with lots of trams, DARTS, trains and pubs nearby. But meanwhile, back on Planet Earth, they ain't gonna get that, so they have to be happy with the next best option.

He who pays the piper and all that. Of course everyone wants the ideal - but if the ideal isn't available, do you just sit and wallow in muck instead, or get on with the best you can get under the circumstances ? If the fans want a stadium in Belfast, fine - build it yourselves.....

If it was my choice I'd make it one of the few things that ever got put west of the Bann.... :D

[Dassa]

ROI fans would love exclusive use of Croke Park, or a brand new shiny 50,000 seater slap-bang in a nice part of Dublin with lots of trams, DARTS, trains and pubs nearby.

I do not want the redevelopment of Windsor, I just want NI to be treated like the other parts of the UK. Scotland,England and Wales all got huge financial backing for their stadiums built in city centres and the ROI will have Landsdowne which is in Dublin. the government lies of no alternative sites just doesnt wash its blackmail and if the IFA fall for it it will be a terrible decision.

[Schumi]

ROI fans would love... a brand new shiny 50,000 seater slap-bang in a nice part of Dublin with lots of trams, DARTS, trains and pubs nearby.
Like the planned redevelopment of Lansdowne, you mean?

[thejollyrodger]

The decision to put the stadium out in the H Block is a DISATER !!!!!!!!!

[thejollyrodger]

Shelbourne should be given the home ground of Landsdowne road when its redeveloped

[A face]

the government lies of no alternative sites just doesnt wash its blackmail and if the IFA fall for it it will be a terrible decision.

Jebus, its hardly lies in fairness, there is a site that can be redeveloped and they are choosing to do it, fair play. the 'no alternative sites' is probably due to costs and planning etc. ..... they have to be practical. Dassa, i dunno fella, i really dont think it would be that bad, it might not be ideal but its hardly dooms day or anything.

[motorcycleman]

It's not a mindset. It was an exaggeration to try to highlight the complexity of the situation to a consitently naive Belgian. I suppose you'll use it anyway to claim that I'm advocating ethnic cleansing of the Village before any Fenian dares to set foot at a Norn Iron game..... :rolleyes:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
As for the Brandywell :
Firstly - it isn't, nor does it claim to be, and nor has it ever claimed to be, a 'national stadium'.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I never said the Brandywell claimed to be a national stadium.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Secondly - given the demographics of the City of Derry in general, and the West Bank of ther Foyle in particular - it should come as no surprise that the ground is in a nationalist area. Shock horror....
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes it is in a nationalist area where demographics of the west bank of the city has changed due to the ethnic cleansing of thousands of unionists from the Fountain etc over the last 35 years.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thirdly - how welcoming is the Oval to the Nationalist community or 'Solitude' to the Unionist community ? And what feckin relevance does it have to a national stadium anyway ??
Fourthly - how welcoming is "anywhere in the Republic of Ireland" to the Unionst community ?!?! :eek: Oh dear - I think that's the only mndset being exposed here. Start by asking the numerous Orange bands who happily and peacefully march in Donegal every 12th July. Then progress onto taking a wee trip south of the border yourself sometime. You might just be surprised...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
You might just be surprised to know that I was born and live well below the border.Why was there such intimidation and threats made last year in Cork where they felt it unsafe to take part in the St. Patrick's day parade when Cork was European capital of culture and in Dublin a few years ago when the a simple ceremony had to abandoned to mark the 200th anniversary of the founding of the order.
The point is to openly display or even mention anything pro-British in the Republic is to be met with derision,suspiscion,exclusion or subtle intimidation.
So we say nothing for a quiet life.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Again with the embattled mindset, and the feeling that Northern Ireland football has somehow been bending over backwards to breaking-point in doing all within its grasp to keep those pesky Fenians happy. Oh dear...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
N.I. football has been doing something,what has the R.of I. been doing ?
As for the Maze site ,the thought of visitors milling around before a match visiting the proposed H-Block musuem is sickening.
It should be built in Belfast where the infrastructure would be better.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
No to stupidity....

Exactly

[Gerrit]

How have you not come across any sectarian element Linfield fans sing The Billy Boys and other "party" songs as they call them.

When did you last visit a Linfield game? I visited several recently and live in a quarter of Belfast where Linfield is supported more than any other team ; I have up until now not heard the Billy Boys a single time. And no, I have also not heard the Sash yet (although that song is not even sectarian) and have not heard any anti-catholic song. This may come as a huge shock to you, but unlike Rangers, Linfield has changed and has cleaned out its closet. Even DCFCSteve, who is strongly nationalist, has agreed with the good anti-sectarian effords made by Linfield.

Linfield is still unionist, yet not sectarian anymore. Unless you consider a Union Jack banner as sectarian, which would however be a bit stupid. Join me to a game at Windsor, or join me to the Linfield supporters pub around the corner of my street. You will not hear any song about Fenian blood.

[Raheny Red]

Originally posted by thejollyrodger
Shelbourne should be given the home ground of Landsdowne road when its redeveloped


:eek: :confused: :eek:

Are you being serious here??

I would love to see Shels in a 40,000-50,000 seater stadium but
our attendances are shít in a 12,000 capacity stadia. It would be like a fcuking ghost town in Lansdowne!!

[dcfcsteve]

I do not want the redevelopment of Windsor, I just want NI to be treated like the other parts of the UK. Scotland,England and Wales all got huge financial backing for their stadiums built in city centres and the ROI will have Landsdowne which is in Dublin. the government lies of no alternative sites just doesnt wash its blackmail and if the IFA fall for it it will be a terrible decision.

Since when were Wembley or Murrayfield in city centres ? You can just about manage the walk out of central Edinburgh to Murrayfield (primarily because there is no other way of getting there or back faster though), but try walking from Leicester Square to Wembley !!

You'll be claiming next that Twickenham is a city centre ground too..... :eek:

[dcfcsteve]

Like the planned redevelopment of Lansdowne, you mean?

No - that's not an FAI ground - which is what I was talking about.

The FAI could technically be hoofed out of there at any time

[dcfcsteve]

I never said the Brandywell claimed to be a national stadium.

So what relevance did it have to a discussion on the national stadium then ??:confused:


Yes it is in a nationalist area where demographics of the west bank of the city has changed due to the ethnic cleansing of thousands of unionists from the Fountain etc over the last 35 years.

Oh sweet lord - I've heard it all now ! You, sir, are an idiot if you even jokingly believe this. Derry managed to avoid anything like serious inter-community trouble - unlike large sections of the rest of the province. You mention the Fountain - you mean that area that is still a protestant stronghold ? Not very good at ethnic cleansing are we !

So - with you being the expert on Derry, would you care to list for me the parts of the Cityside that, being formerly Protestant, saw demographic change due to ethnic cleansing ? Culmore ? Culmore Rd ? Northlands ? Duncreggan ? All areas that had a significant protestant population, but no longer do (though Culmore still does). Have you even heard of any of these parts of Derry ?? I can guarantee you that those changes in demographics were both gradual, and by no means due to ethnic cleansing. As happened throughout Northern Ireland in the Troubles, the two communities slowly gravitated towards areas populated primarily by their own community. Yes - a lot of this was for perceived 'safety', but ethnic cleansing is a phrase that strongly suggests a heavily coercive/enforced/violent motivation behind it. Like what the Catholic community suffered in Bombay Street in Belfast in 1969. Now - THAT was ethnic cleansing. So too was a period of the IRA's border campaign in the 70's, where they targetted the sons of protestant farmers to prevent the land staying in protestant family hands. That was ethnic cleansing. There was none of anything even vaguely near any of that in Derry. And you are a f u c k i n g delusional muppet for even suggesting this.... :rolleyes:


You might just be surprised to know that I was born and live well below the border.Why was there such intimidation and threats made last year in Cork where they felt it unsafe to take part in the St. Patrick's day parade when Cork was European capital of culture and in Dublin a few years ago when the a simple ceremony had to abandoned to mark the 200th anniversary of the founding of the order.

Firstlky - why should that surprise me ? :confused: Secondly - don't play naive MCM. You know full well that the Orange Order (I assume you're referring to them - your Cork example in particular just says "they") is an incredibly divisive and anti-Catholic body. Substantial numbers of the protestant community north and south have deliberatly nothing to do with it themselves as a result. To hold-up treatmnet of the Orange Order as proof-evident of anti-protestantism would be like holding-up negative reaction to a Republican rally in Ballymena as evidence of anti-Catholicism. Neither would be accurate.


The point is to openly display or even mention anything pro-British in the Republic is to be met with derision, suspiscion, exclusion or subtle intimidation. So we say nothing for a quiet life.

Ahhh - so now we get down to what you really mean. You're not claiming that being protestant is a problem in Ireland, but that being pro-British is. They are 2 entirely separate things, and very often do not overlap.


As for the Maze site ,the thought of visitors milling around before a match visiting the proposed H-Block musuem is sickening.

If idiots wants to spend their cash wandering around a Maze museum - or anything else for that matter - you know what ? That's their right. That's democracy. You may feel happy with the thought of telling people what they can and can't do with their own time and money, but thankfully most of the world doesn't.




No to stupidity....

Exactly

Change begins at home MCM - change begins at home.....

[Dassa]

Im sorry lads but this debate for me and NI fans has nothin to do with sectarianism or what religion people are. I dream of the day when every NI person can come and support their country in a match. but this can happen in a new stadium in Belfast aswell as the maze.

[Schumi]

No - that's not an FAI ground - which is what I was talking about.

The FAI could technically be hoofed out of there at any time
Not true. AFAIR the FAI will own a third of the company (along with the IRFU and the government) that owns and runs the stadium. They won't be renting it off the IRFU like now.

[pete]

Not true. AFAIR the FAI will own a third of the company (along with the IRFU and the government) that owns and runs the stadium. They won't be renting it off the IRFU like now.

Exactly, each party invloved will own a percentage of the stadium & will receive the revenue from each event staged there based on their percentage. The FAI will get a cut of revenue from rugby games & vice versa.

[dcfcsteve]

Exactly, each party invloved will own a percentage of the stadium & will receive the revenue from each event staged there based on their percentage. The FAI will get a cut of revenue from rugby games & vice versa.

Good so - I stand corrected.

Sounds like a good deal by the FAI. I'm assuming they're not having to put any money in, and it's just part of the overall bribe to get them to sign-up ?

[Duncan Gardner]

Enjoyable knockabout stuff above, but this isn't really a unionist-nationalist, Belfast-Derry, or City-Country argument.

It's about whether a field in the country with less than ideal transport links is suitable for a sports stadium, let alone an obvious white elephant. 42,000 seats is absurd. NI and Ulster rugby's crowds will never consistently get anywhere near that, GAA will continue to play big matches at county grounds, Clones or Croke.

The plan to spend £85 million of taxpayers' money on the Maze when private developers propose to build a smaller stadium at Ormeau (2km from Belfast city centre) is a bit odd, eh?*

The representative amalgamation of NI Supporters Clubs has submitted a detailed, costed reply to the Maze proposal (pm me for copy). It has also carried out a specific survey of fans showing 85-90% opposition to the Maze (depending on size of any new build).

* I take the point about Ormeau Park inevitably losing some amenity, although the actual planned site for the stadium is actually more 'brownfield' -it's a leisure centre at present.

But you can't have it both ways by also claiming there's a lack of car parking at Ormeau. Well aye, because it's a park in the inner city! Fans may have to walk a few minutes from nearby car parks.

[dcfcsteve]

Enjoyable knockabout stuff above, but this isn't really a unionist-nationalist, Belfast-Derry, or City-Country argument.

It's about whether a field in the country with less than ideal transport links is suitable for a sports stadium, let alone an obvious white elephant. 42,000 seats is absurd. NI and Ulster rugby's crowds will never consistently get anywhere near that, GAA will continue to play big matches at county grounds, Clones or Croke.

The plan to spend £85 million of taxpayers' money on the Maze when private developers propose to build a smaller stadium at Ormeau (2km from Belfast city centre) is a bit odd, eh?*

The representative amalgamation of NI Supporters Clubs has submitted a detailed, costed reply to the Maze proposal (pm me for copy). It has also carried out a specific survey of fans showing 85-90% opposition to the Maze (depending on size of any new build).

* I take the point about Ormeau Park inevitably losing some amenity, although the actual planned site for the stadium is actually more 'brownfield' -it's a leisure centre at present.

But you can't have it both ways by also claiming there's a lack of car parking at Ormeau. Well aye, because it's a park in the inner city! Fans may have to walk a few minutes from nearby car parks.

I've just had a look through that ANISC document, and admittedly it makes a good case against the Maze and in-favour of a Belfast site.

However - I can't help but see a beautiful irony in the fact that Belfast is being denied a facility it feels it deserves, purely for political reasons. Welcome to how the city of Derry has been treated consistently since 1922. What comes around, goes around.

At least Belfast has got motorways, Universities, a rail network, Police schools, jobs etc etc to make-up for any lack of a stadium... :rolleyes:

[Gerrit]

I was told Derry's economy is doing very well, well at least that's what the locals told me when I visited the Maiden City.
Anyway, that's off-topic.


The new stadium doesn't need 42000 seats, but bigger than the current one is a must. Every game (except for the one vs Azerbaijan) was sold-out long before and touts had the time of their life with their tickets getting sold for up to 400 GBP vs England :eek: At least 20000 capacity is required.

Ulster Rugby has plans to leave Ravenhill then? :confused: I don't really follow rugby, so may be a lit behind on that one...

[Duncan Gardner]

But I think One H-Block should be left standing as a permanent reminder/memorial to all prisoners who served time there from all sides of the political divide

Without lapsing too far into party politics, the Government's plan is that the stadium and 'museum' would both be integral parts of the site.

A new greenfield site would be the only hope (if any) of a ground welcomed by both communities

You're discounting the possible sites in central Belfast at Maysfield and Ormeau (1 km and 2 km from the City Hall). Although the latter is in a park, both are closer to 'brownfield' as one is currently a leisure centre, the other used to be.

I thought there was good support for a Greenfield site but maybe no agreement on where that would be?

Amongst the likely users, there's massive opposition to the Maze plan, largely on grounds of location but also as it's too large. A weighted poll of NI opinion as a whole is more welcoming, essentially agreeing with the line quoted here, 'it's free so why are you quibbling it'? But such opinion is less important because only a small proportion of it would ever use the stadium, whereas all of the other poll already watches football at Windsor. Note of course that it isn't 'free' in the wider sense: you could provide a lot of hospital beds with £ 85 million, or even with the margin left over after government support to a smaller stadium's costs.

The Ormeau Park suggestion is a complete nonsense. I lived at the edge of Ormeau Park for 5 years and there just is not the space to build a stadium with sufficient parking etc. Also why destroy one of the nicest areas of park in Central Belfast to build a stadium? As Jimmy Boyce said, the Maze option is the "only game in town"

The stadium would replace the leisure centre. Car parking would be elsewhere but close. The parkland has already been converted- did you grumble then, I wonder? Boyce is talking nonsense. There are two proposed sites in the city centre- and a plan to develop a smaller stadium beside Glentoran Airport. Not that we need that for u-21 matches as proposed, Ballymena and Lurgan are fine, but it does show how incoherent Boyce is.

The Maze site is easily accessible from all parts of Northern Ireland - it is right beside the M1

And not so far from the Belfast-Dublin railway. Except there are no costed plans for a dedicated station and a motorway junction and slip road. Both of which you might expect if there are really no alternatives...

It seems to be mainly Belfast people who are complaining about the location of the stadium

Wrong. The proportion of the supporters' poll opposing the Maze (>80%) is clearly greater than the population of NI living in Belfast ( about 30% even if we include Lisburn and the rest of the suburban sprawl).

for god sake please let them have the sense to make the right decision on this one. It is hard not to make the right one too

We- NI fans and the rest of the users- will decide that, thanks. You may see it rather less simplistically after reading our report.

And what feckin relevance does it have to a national stadium anyway ??

Oh, none. Except that they (Brandywell, Oval and others like Shamrock or Solitude) have one thing in common. All are football grounds widely if unfairly perceived as unwelcoming by the other community. I'll accept that the national stadium is expected to set a higher standard of welcomingness, but to distinguish rigidly between it and the others is a bit silly.

14,000? Windsor Park holds 20,000+ i thought, is Windsor not full on match day? Anyway, the fact that it is not Windsor might mean there will be more crowds there, nad the fact that it will be modern etc. Also the fact that ye are beating sides like England for fun might mean a few new faces too yeah !?!

Windsor must be all-seated for international matches, thus the lower figure. The higher figure is notional. Many Irish League Prem sides would be pleased with an AGGREGATE of 20,000 for the season. Survey of fans suggests crowds would fall at the Maze. Statistically we are 6/1 against drawing England in the next competition. Project that over seven tournaments, and assuming they remain consistently better than us, we'll play them every 14 years. You don't plan a stadium on that basis. No other European countries bar the Republic and very possibly Scotland would see significantly increased crowds, and even then one-off. We have played France, Germany and Spain at home in recent years, remember.

ROI fans would be ecstatic if they got a stadium out of the FAI on the moon ! And as for building stadiums miles outside of cities in a field with no amenities - well everyone seems to love the Stade de France...

Anecdotal I know, but a significant proportion of your London-based fans moaned when they had to trek all the way to Charlton Athletic* to watch that 2004 tournament, rather than QPR* as preferred. (* Seven as opposed to three miles from central London). The Stade may be popular with visitors, less so with fans of French football. Which presumably is a main reason why Paris SG stay at Parc des Princes.

Since when were Wembley or Murrayfield in city centres ?

You aren't comparing like with like. The problem isn't that the Maze is in Lisburn town centre- it's that it's miles away, in a field with no nearby amenities.

However - I can't help but see a beautiful irony in the fact that Belfast is being denied a facility it feels it deserves, purely for political reasons.

Not a 'fact' actually, but your clearly loaded opinion. The opposition to the Maze plan is both

a) overwhelming within that part of the community with a real stake in it, ie fans attending matches

b) extended well beyond Belfast local authorities, lobbies and fans actually living there.

Both of which, you at least acknowledge, are well argued in the report.

[dcfcsteve]

It seems to be mainly Belfast people who are complaining about the location of the stadium

Wrong. The proportion of the supporters' poll opposing the Maze (>80%) is clearly greater than the population of NI living in Belfast ( about 30% even if we include Lisburn and the rest of the suburban sprawl).

This needs explaining Duncan. The percentage of NI fans opposing would only work in the way you've said if the sample statistcially reflected the dispersal of population around the province.


And what feckin relevance does it have to a national stadium anyway ??

Oh, none. Except that they (Brandywell, Oval and others like Shamrock or Solitude) have one thing in common. All are football grounds widely if unfairly perceived as unwelcoming by the other community. I'll accept that the national stadium is expected to set a higher standard of welcomingness, but to distinguish rigidly between it and the others is a bit silly.

Motorcycleman just mentioned the Brandywell because of his blinkers, tbh. Hence why I chose to remind him that there are other equally polarising grounds elsewhere in the province on both sides of the 'divide'. And as you said yourself anyway - a national stadium is expected to set a higher standard of welcomingness. At least we're all agreed, therefore, that Windsor doesn't work.


ROI fans would be ecstatic if they got a stadium out of the FAI on the moon ! And as for building stadiums miles outside of cities in a field with no amenities - well everyone seems to love the Stade de France...

Anecdotal I know, but a significant proportion of your London-based fans moaned when they had to trek all the way to Charlton Athletic* to watch that 2004 tournament, rather than QPR* as preferred. (* Seven as opposed to three miles from central London). The Stade may be popular with visitors, less so with fans of French football. Which presumably is a main reason why Paris SG stay at Parc des Princes.

I've been to the Stade de France more times than any other international stadium - incl Lansdowne. I was at the first ever sports match played there, and have been to watch Ireland and Wales play rugby there on quite a few occassions, as well as the ROI play soccer. On a number of those occassions I have gone with French friends living in Paris. On none of those occassions have I encountered any negative feedback regarding the stadium from the French themselves, so I'm not sure what you're basing your assertion that its unpopular with the French upon ?

PSG stayed at PDeP for a host of reasons. Including inertia and the fact that they don't need a stadium any bigger.

As for the Charlton v QPR arguement regarding the Unity Cup. Firstly - that was an event that completely failed to catch the imagination of ANYONE in London. Hence why no-one attended really anyway. Secondly - I've been to both the Valley and Loftus Rd on a number of occassions each, and can assure you that - as with most things in London - the distance isn't anywhere near as important as the ability to get to there. Charlton is a ballax to get to. It's not on the tube network, is nowhere near areas with traditionally high Irish populations, and to be honest is not a particular nice area - often particularly so for those who aren't 'English', if you catch my drift. Shepherd's Bush, meanwhile, is well served by tubes, near a number of areas that have traditionally had large Irish populations (e.g. Shep Bush itself, Kilburn, Cricklewood etc), and is by a country mile a nicer and more welcoming part of town. Your anecdote is therefore deeply flawed.


However - I can't help but see a beautiful irony in the fact that Belfast is being denied a facility it feels it deserves, purely for political reasons.

Not a 'fact' actually, but your clearly loaded opinion. The opposition to the Maze plan is both

a) overwhelming within that part of the community with a real stake in it, ie fans attending matches

b) extended well beyond Belfast local authorities, lobbies and fans actually living there.

Both of which, you at least acknowledge, are well argued in the report.

I accept your points, and admit fully that I'm pursuiing a loaded opinion here. But when your city has been shat on for decades for narrow sectarian political purposes, you can't help but raise a rye smile at the possibility of the offender in chief (i.e. Belfast) finding itself at the wrong end of a decision being made on the grounds of politics rather than arguably common sense or need. I doubt you'd find much sympathy for the Belfast stadium cause in Derry - regardless of the merits of the case. Like I said - what goes around comes around.....

[Duncan Gardner]

This needs explaining Duncan. The percentage of NI fans opposing would only work in the way you've said if the sample statistcially reflected the dispersal of population around the province

Broadly, I think it does if you assume dispersal of population likely to support Northern Ireland's football team, as opposed to another team or none. Obviously fans attending NI games tend to be unionist, and unionists tend to live east of the Bann, but the huge discrepancy between the 80% and 30% figures I quoted makes clear that a large part of the opposition to the Maze comes from outside greater Belfast.

At least we're all agreed, therefore, that Windsor doesn't work

Again broadly yes*, although you'll understand why I want to keep it as a future option. I think the Maze stadium plan will be abandoned because of lack of support from the three sports involved. And while the Belfast plans, particularly at Ormeau Park, are impressive, there's the likelihood they may run into planning, financial or other difficulties. We'll still need somewhere to play games...

* I don't want to get into a spat about how intimidating Windsor is, was, or might be. However, I referred it in plenty of other threads here in the past

I'm not sure what you're basing your assertion that its unpopular with the French upon

Anecdotal evidence (ie, hearing and reading French fans say they don't like it- too big, too remote etc.), which I should have made clear as for the SE7/ W12 comparison below. I note you merely quote slightly more anecdotal evidence in return.

'London W12 v SE7'

Charlton Athletic is 300m from a train station served at least every 15 minutes from central London, and only 2 km from the tube network at the Dome, if you can't wait that long. The boroughs of Greenwich and neighbouring Lewisham have long-established Irish communities. Both are also ethnically diverse, if you were hinting otherwise.

[W12] is by a country mile a nicer and more welcoming part of town

So this isn't anything other than a very subjective rant, is it?

you can't help but raise a wry smile at the possibility of the offender in chief (i.e. Belfast) finding itself at the wrong end of a decision being made on the grounds of politics rather than arguably common sense or need. I doubt you'd find much sympathy for the Belfast stadium cause in Derry - regardless of the merits of the case

Aye, I see the mild irony. But since you personally agree the supporters' response is well-argued, why wouldn't others in Derry? Even if the large majority of fans there don't support NI and don't care where they play, as taxpayers they presumably have an opinion on what looks like the unnecessary spending of £ 85 million, eh?

[dcfcsteve]

This needs explaining Duncan. The percentage of NI fans opposing would only work in the way you've said if the sample statistcially reflected the dispersal of population around the province

Broadly, I think it does if you assume dispersal of population likely to support Northern Ireland's football team, as opposed to another team or none. Obviously fans attending NI games tend to be unionist, and unionists tend to live east of the Bann, but the huge discrepancy between the 80% and 30% figures I quoted makes clear that a large part of the opposition to the Maze comes from outside greater Belfast.

Duncan - this is a highly suspect assumptino to make. No statistician would touch it with a barge pole.


'London W12 v SE7'

Charlton Athletic is 300m from a train station served at least every 15 minutes from central London, and only 2 km from the tube network at the Dome, if you can't wait that long. The boroughs of Greenwich and neighbouring Lewisham have long-established Irish communities. Both are also ethnically diverse, if you were hinting otherwise.

North Greenwich tube station is 2 MILES from The Valley - not 2km. That's a 60% difference. On top of that, it involves crossing an incredibly busy 6-lane major A-road, and a walk up a bit of a hill. It's therefore not the casual Sunday mornign stroll you seem to be suggesting. As for the train station - across the period that the 2 Ireland games were on at the Valley, the train service wasn't operating and they had replacement bus services instead to the tube at North Greenwich. Which suggests that even London Transport thought the walk was a bit unreasonable. All-in-all, getting to and from the
Valley for those games was an absolute fiasco - it took literally hours.

[W12] is by a country mile a nicer and more welcoming part of town

So this isn't anything other than a very subjective rant, is it? [/QUOTE]

Subjective opinion - yes. But a "rant" - really ???? A statement claiming that Kensington is nicer than Brixton would also therefore qualify as a "sujective rant" ? You live in London Duncan - go to a game down at The Valley yourself and go for a drink or two in the bars in the surrounding area. Then do likewise at Loftus Rd and let me know what you think.
Is it any coincidence that Celtic have played a number of friendlies in West and North London in recent years (mostly Fulham, but also QPR and Spurs), but none in South-East London (home of Milwall and Charlton). And for the record - CAFC's hooligan element (B'Mob) identify much more strongly with Loyalism than QPR's do (ironically, the C'Mob). It is not unusual to see Loyalist flags/banners at Charlton home games. I have never heard of any at QPR.

you can't help but raise a wry smile at the possibility of the offender in chief (i.e. Belfast) finding itself at the wrong end of a decision being made on the grounds of politics rather than arguably common sense or need. I doubt you'd find much sympathy for the Belfast stadium cause in Derry - regardless of the merits of the case

Aye, I see the mild irony. But since you personally agree the supporters' response is well-argued, why wouldn't others in Derry? Even if the large majority of fans there don't support NI and don't care where they play, as taxpayers they presumably have an opinion on what looks like the unnecessary spending of £ 85 million, eh?[/QUOTE]