IFA and the Maze

[dcfcsteve]

This needs explaining Duncan. The percentage of NI fans opposing would only work in the way you've said if the sample statistcially reflected the dispersal of population around the province

Broadly, I think it does if you assume dispersal of population likely to support Northern Ireland's football team, as opposed to another team or none. Obviously fans attending NI games tend to be unionist, and unionists tend to live east of the Bann, but the huge discrepancy between the 80% and 30% figures I quoted makes clear that a large part of the opposition to the Maze comes from outside greater Belfast.

Duncan - this is a highly suspect assumption to make. No statistician would touch it with a barge pole.


'London W12 v SE7'

Charlton Athletic is 300m from a train station served at least every 15 minutes from central London, and only 2 km from the tube network at the Dome, if you can't wait that long. The boroughs of Greenwich and neighbouring Lewisham have long-established Irish communities. Both are also ethnically diverse, if you were hinting otherwise.

North Greenwich tube station is 2 MILES from The Valley - not 2km. That's a 60% difference. On top of that, it involves crossing an incredibly busy 6-lane major A-road, and a walk up a bit of a hill. It's therefore not the casual Sunday morning stroll you seem to be suggesting. As for the train station - across the period that the 2 Ireland games were on at the Valley, the train service wasn't operating and they had replacement bus services instead to the tube at North Greenwich. Which suggests that even London Transport thought the walk was a bit unreasonable. All-in-all, getting to and from the
Valley for those games was an absolute fiasco - it took literally hours. Using the Unity Cup games at The Valley in support of a point regarding fans willingness to travel to a game just doesn't work.


[W12] is by a country mile a nicer and more welcoming part of town

So this isn't anything other than a very subjective rant, is it?

Subjective opinion - yes. But a "rant" - really ???? :confused: A statement claiming that Kensington is nicer than Brixton would also therefore qualify as a "sujective rant" ? You live in London Duncan - go to a game down at The Valley yourself and go for a drink or two in the bars in the surrounding area. Then do likewise at Loftus Rd and let me know what you think.

Is it any coincidence that the pre-season friendlies that Celtic have begun playing in London every year have been solely in West and North London (mostly Fulham, but also QPR and Spurs), but none in South-East London (home of Milwall and Charlton). Perhaps it is. But for the record - CAFC's hooligan element (B'Mob) identify very strongly with Loyalism. It is not unusual to see Loyalist flags/banners at Charlton home games. I have never heard of similar amongst QPR's element (the C'mob), and I have 2 QPR season ticket-holding mates who I play footie with every week..


you can't help but raise a wry smile at the possibility of the offender in chief (i.e. Belfast) finding itself at the wrong end of a decision being made on the grounds of politics rather than arguably common sense or need. I doubt you'd find much sympathy for the Belfast stadium cause in Derry - regardless of the merits of the case

Aye, I see the mild irony. But since you personally agree the supporters' response is well-argued, why wouldn't others in Derry? Even if the large majority of fans there don't support NI and don't care where they play, as taxpayers they presumably have an opinion on what looks like the unnecessary spending of £ 85 million, eh?

When you've been paying tax for nigh-on a century without your home town seeing any significant benefit from it, you tend to lose any interest in where your tax dollars allegedly get spent. The people of Derry checked-out of caring when we lost the University in the 60's. The very recent decision to award the significant number of Civil Service e-HR jobs to a bid based in Belfast, rather than Accenture's bid that would've been based in Derry, makes it even less likely you'd get any sympathy in the North-West at the moment- regardless of whether it meant a couple of pence in individual's annual tax-grab being wasted.

[Duncan Gardner]

a highly suspect assumption to make. No statistician would touch it with a barge pole

Why not? It seems pretty straightforward to me. Variously,

crowds for internationals at Windsor vary from 7,000- 13,000
the number who go to at least one match per year will obviously be higher. I don't know how precisely this has been researched, but let's say somewhere between 30,000- 50,000
the poll sampled, already at a game, at more than 2,000, was large enough to be representative of the higher figure
its conclusions were overwhelming. No to the Maze
Northern Ireland supporters are based in and travel from all over the country, and many beyond
thus there is no basis to the claim that opposition is primarily Belfast-based
the MORI poll showing a majority in favour doesn't directly contradict because, however well weighted viz a viz Belfast/ the country, women/men, old/young, green/orange or whatever, it clearly didn't distinguish between peole with a genuine stake in where matches are played, and the rest.


Steve, I've answered your points about various drinking venues in inner London by PM, as they're largely irrelevant to this thread, probably of little interest to most readers, and in any case were covered at the time.

I've also resisted the temptation to get into a wider party political argument. Elswhere, maybe. Next time we met for a pint at Birkbeck?

[Duncan Gardner]

Unlike Messrs Steve and Bloomfield, I suspect the "mood across the whole of greater Ulster and beyond" is quite likely to turn against the Long Kesh superdrome when they realise what a waste of their taxes it is. But even more starkly, the stadium's backers need to attract a rather more specific audience, ie football, rugby and GAA fans likely to attend matches. If they aren't interested, then the stadium won't be feasible in its own terms even if more general public opinion surveys support it.

NI fans in the rest of the six counties, and beyond are broadly happy with the infrastructure available in Belfast city centre (where there are two separate proposals for city centre stadia). They might conceivably be happy with similar in Lisburn or Ballymena centres, though no-one's suggesting any sites there, eh?

Since you're such an expert on the London Irish press, Bloomfield, no doubt you'll be able to offer some evidence- its circulation in differing areas of the city, say? I look forward to reading it.

[Duncan Gardner]

You may know :rolleyes: more about the infastructure of Greater Belfast

Not significantly more than you, since much of it is self-evident. It's a big city, with a wide variety of access routes and entertainment facilities other than the (eventual) ground itself.

but if they can build it, albeit very painfully slowly, in the rest of Ireland, they can construct the links

The point is that they haven't yet planned the links, despite the decision supposedly already taken. Which does rather create the suspicion that they won't be built at all. Even if they are, belatedly, that means a possibly extended delay with even less incentive for fans to travel to the Maze.

to take this ground to a 'neutral' area

The Maze isn't a neutral area in the way you assume. At the moment it's a field, but presumably you expect it to have restaurants, bars, bowling alley, cinema etc. I doubt any of those will ever be built, but if they are they'll be staffed and used by locals from the nearby town, who are likely to be predominantly unionist. In the last general election, nationalists made up 14% of the local electorate (Lagan Valley, 2005).

As for 'Laandaan'

There are long established Irish communities in the south London boroughs of Greenwich (where I live), Lewisham, Southwark, Lambeth and Wandsworth. My newsagent sells the Irish Indo and other weekend and weekly papers from Ireland. As per a previous thread here, Chelsea have long drawn their support mainly from south London, much of it is Irish. Let's see some evidence, please, of the Irish Post's sales (which are not that high anyway- less than 30,000 for a community of 690,000 and wider diaspora of 2,400,000). Broken down across the country. Anecdotal guesswork won't do.

www.irishpost.co.uk/Mediapack.pdf

[Krstic]

Lads I've loved this debate, it's been civilised and way beyond my capabilities.
But I think you're all forgetting that this stadium is not just for the fans of Norn Ireland's footy team, it's for 2 other sports, one of which could fill the proposed stadium with ease.
It could also be utilised for other money making schemes such as concerts and festivals, way out in the country with no residents to annoy.

And at the end of the day it's only about a half hour journey from Belfast.
I can say with all honesty that I would attend Norn Ireland matches at this new venue if only to see the opposition but as has been pointed out I would still be going to Dublin in order to support the Republic.

[Duncan Gardner]

But I think you're all forgetting that this stadium is not just for the fans of Norn Ireland's footy team, it's for 2 other sports, one of which could fill the proposed stadium with ease

Indeed, although

a) neither of the other sports have shown much enthusiasm for the Maze plan

b) GAA are likely to continue to want to play such big matches either in Clones (with the attraction, inter alia, of not having to pay British VAT on gate receipts), or at Croke, the obvious venue for any Ulster final likely to attract 42,000+

c) Rugby Union have only been talking about a small country international friendly every second year. Which won't attract anywhere near 42,000

It could also be utilised for other money making schemes such as concerts and festivals, way out in the country with no residents to annoy

It won't be- there's no known demand for them, or for a 'Mazetonbury'. Existing facilities in Belfast are fine.

And at the end of the day it's only about a half hour journey from Belfast

For reasons already discussed, it would likely to take twice that to queue out of the car park via the one access road.



[B]Most 'real' Irish people would consider those areas either overly English(or associated with other Ethnic groups! ). You are clearly Unfamiliar with the Diaspora!

You clearly have no idea of the national/ ethnic background of south London, nor have you explained your source for what most 'real' (explain?) Irish people think. But go on, here's your chance. Statistical evidence please, not rambling abuse.

Strikes me as 'anecdotal guesswork' by your goodself!

Indeed, but differing from yours in two small yet significant ways. First, I live in south London, thus I'm likely to know whether or not it has Irish communities, and where. Second, I did actually quote/ link you to the Irish Post's ABC sales, plus their claimed wider community (which is extracted from the 2001 census, I think). If their sales aren't broken down for different areas of London in their own advertising, I doubt you are making much more than a wild guess. Quite likely based on some bizarre personal bias against 'unreal' Irish people and south Londoners...

Presuming you are capable of reading

No need to be abusive

suggest you look at 'The Irish Times' stockists list published in their 'International' edition! Will happily get hold of The I.P.'s circulation figures & post to you.....though don't know if publicly accessible?

I'm quite happy to read them when/ if supplied by you. As above, if they aren't accessible how can you be such an authority on them?

As for the mutant chavs.of SW3*......Yes with barely no exception,their traditional support has been reflected in being often fascist, generally 'brain-dead' & thus by definition largely anti-Irish!

Incoherent nonsense. Their traditional support comes from the working people of south inner London, who have long been strongly Irish. Only a small minority of whom are fascist or brain dead. Not that either of those terms mean inherently anti-Irish, since Ireland and its diaspora has its own minorities in both categories.

They were the only club in London handing out fascist pro-UVF/NF literature as recently as the mid/late-90's. Very 'pro-Irish'

They weren't- I've seen it at Spurs, West Ham and Millwall during that period.

Maybe If you had a Dublin government;Then the links would now be planned?!

You haven't, you won't in the foreseeable future and your analogy is a bit odd. Belfast had urban motorway links long before Dublin.

central Belfast(Much of which is stigmatised as being associated to 'one side or other'), so a neutral field seems as good as anywhere

Except it isn't neutral. Its staff and users of the ancilliary facilities I mentioned are likely to be predominantly unionist. As I said above.

Surely the 'majority' of the 'North of Ireland' fanbase would prefer the staff to come from their own community anyway!

The question doesn't arise. Fans don't want to go the Maze because it's isolated with poor current and likely future infrastructure.

Plus I doubt a large majority of the self same people would take kindly to members of the indigeneous population turning up for G.A.A.fixtures in the centre of a large urban area, where they were unwelcome!

What are you on about? If the GAA wanted to use a new stadium at the favoured site in Belfast, there would be no problem per se in their fans turning up (and avoiding flashpoint unionist areas in approach to the stadium). As you must know, inner city Belfast has a large nationalist population.

What's the dig from the indigenous population? Excluding unionists from it is dumb, as I've said often on this board. Their ancestors have been there for centuries- just like the nationalist population of Belfast, after their own forebears migrated from other areas of Ireland. Or possibly Deutschland, in Herr Blomfeld's case.

[Dassa]

Surely the 'majority' of the 'North of Ireland' fanbase would prefer the staff to come from their own community anyway!
Plus I doubt a large majority of the self same people would take kindly to members of the indigeneous population turning up for G.A.A.fixtures in the centre of a large urban area, where they were unwelcome!

Mate you can call our team Northern Ireland it is a proper title and this crap about indigenous populations is immature and nonsense so wise up.

[Duncan Gardner]

Hang On!You, DG & a minority of outdated people who neither recognise The Indigeneous Population are campaigning for a 'country'That don't even Exist!', FFS want everyone to build a stadia exactly to yer specifications?! Yeah right,................on that basis , Hampden is too :rolleyes: close for the 'usual'suspects' ?

Bloomfield/ Gonzo: the only one(s) not recognising the indigenous population is/ are you. Now give it a rest before yer multiple aliases get banned for the umpteenth time...

The 'specifications' asked for by a clear majority of NI fans are actually quite broad- that the stadium be within walking distance of Belfast city centre, and of a realistic size ie between 20- 30,000 seats.

These specifications are both reasonable and achievable.

Hampden Park is largely irrelevant to this debate. Although many Scots- and outsiders, including me- thought it a white elephant when rebuilt. Largely because neither Rangers nor Celtic would accept Scotland's 'big' games being staged by the other. That factor doesn't apply in the same way in the Belfast/ Maze debate, as shown by the oddity of some nationalists insisting on a site in a very unionist area, while the largely unionist fanbase counter with a preferred site next to nationalist areas in the inner city.

Here's a letter from David Carson, professor of marketing at Ulster University. Not published by the Belfast Telegraph, but openly copied to the Amalgam of NISCs:

Judging by the flurry of media articles, airtime and correspondence in relation to the concept of a National Stadium and its siting, this is indeed an issue of great concern to many. In contradiction of our Minister it is clear that the matter is not closed. Agreement or enforcement of a sub-optimal decision may have political expediency but it makes no business sense.

So what are the differing positions? One body of opinion is firmly for a stadium complex at the Maze, which has land and space aplenty, but little else. Another opinion argues for somewhere in Belfast and now specifically one lobby is for the Maysfield area whilst another is for Ormeau Park. A further argument is that since Government claim that the Maze is the only option, then everybody should agree to this, better this than none at all.

In some ways Government have no choice but to argue for the Maze as the only option. I gather that Government commissioned a feasibility study to justify the Maze site. So having got a result, based on their own brief, in favour of this site, it is difficult for them to admit that other sites might have equal or better feasibility. The Government’s argument appears to be founded upon cost and availability of land, however if Belfast City Council was to provide land for a stadium the fundamental argument for the Maze would seem to be negated.

Where is the best site? It is difficult amongst all this to see that Government is taking cognisance of the wider issues of maximising the social and economic impact upon the widest possible community. If this fundamental requirement is given due weight then there is only one location for our stadium, that is in close proximity to the major concentration of population, commerce, transport and hospitality provision; namely within the existing infrastructure of the largest city. That is Belfast. Why so?

- Firstly, Belfast has an established and improving transport infrastructure, both public and private. More importantly, it offers the widest choice and variety for additional retail spend. Thus, multiple restaurants, cafes, bars and retail shops as well as alternative entertainments through cinema and theatre. As such a stadium event attracting tens of thousands of spectators will multiply economic activity in all of the above, thereby maximising the social and economic impact for all.

- Secondly, an aspect that is most disappointing about Government thinking, is lack of consideration of the impact upon tourism. Large events attract tourists, not only for the event but to bring family, stay awhile and enjoy the amenities of the local surroundings. Since expansion of tourism is a major platform of Government strategy it is extremely remiss of Government not to consider the location of a National Stadium as a tourist development and a local social amenity, thereby maximising further the social and economic impact.

Best practice throughout the world demonstrates over and over again the logic expressed here. Melbourne has “state-of-the art” facilities all within walking distance of the city centre. Similarly, Cardiff, San-Francisco, Paris, Porto and not least Dublin with Croke Park and the soon to be rebuilt Lansdowne Road.

The common link between all of these examples is that none are located in isolation from a major infrastructure of transport, commerce, leisure, entertainment, hospitality and accommodation. Because of their location they maximise the social and economic impact for the good of the widest community.

[Dassa]

Hang On!You, DG & a minority of outdated people who neither recognise The Indigeneous Population are campaigning for a 'country[I]'That don't even Exist!'

How am I outdated, I was born on the Island of Ireland in Co Armagh like generations of my family before me. i was born into a country recognised as NI so how does it not exist.This is pure narrow mindedness on your behalf.

[Krstic]

All these arguements mean nothing when put up against the Governments' main Criteria: All 3 major sporting bodies must be willing to use it.

The sporting body who require it the least, will in no way be willing to use any stadium in the proposed Belfast locations. The GAA simply do not require this stadium, however are not silly enough to turn down a free stadium.

I'm sure the Rugby people could take it or leave it, yet they too are not so stupid as to refuse a freebie.

That leaves the IFA, the organisation who most require a stadium.
Again this organisation is not going to turn down a gift like this, but behaving like spoilt children because all the specifications are not to your liking is getting a bit boring.

The quoting of Polls carried out by different people are also overshadowed by the best poll of all, up until Northern Ireland's recent Wales and England Games, it was quite easy to get a tickets for your International games.
The demand wasn't great for going to watch a Game in 'Belfast City', so why would the demand increase now?
If you want to stay in Belfast you might as well stay at Windsor and re-develop it.
Other wise take the freebie and enjoy it, attempt to expand your audience and get qualifying for a few tournaments.
If not, Build your own stadium or fix up Linfield's and keep on playing to
10-15,000 people.

[Krstic]

If the IFA are the ones most in need of the stadium and the other associations are merely along for the freebie then I think the IFA's criteria cannot and should not be simply dismissed. What is happening here is some form of social engineering by people with little or no stake-holding in the game.

This shouldn't really concern you Bohsfan, unless you're finally going to admitt that you are in fact from Northern Ireland.

[Krstic]

Not your stalker Bohsfan, although I do keep an eye on your posts. As anyone can see the mjority of your previous posts have an unhealthy interest in things that happen in Northern Ireland, yet you seem to have little or no interest in bohemians, the team you claim to support.

You were on here last summer having a go at Derry City and reappeared recently again having a go at Derry City.
And your comment on this topic about the 'Stake-holders' in the Maze situation, re-affirms my opinion that you're not who you say. (Although your continual use of 'Mate' and reference to 'Peelers' last year had already been confirmation enough)

So if only you'd stop the charade then maybe i'd ignore you;)

[Krstic]

Check the majority of your posts Bohsfan, again you're very selective. Notice how you only replied to that part of the post and ignored tha FACTS in the rest of it.

And on the stalker issue, I do believe that it was you who replied to me in this topic.:eek:

[Dassa]

but behaving like spoilt children because all the specifications are not to your liking is getting a bit boring.



The GAA asked for a 40,000+ seater stadium outside of Belfast, and surprise surprise they got their exact specifications so whats wrong with football asking for theirs.

[Dassa]

Well apart from the fact the country you refer to is one of Britain's last colonial outposts, it does not exist either in the eyes of the U.N., N.A.T.O or the E.U.! Fine logic.
Most Nationalists would disagree with you!

Im sorry but I thought this was a football forum lads and as far as I know FIFA and EUFA both accept NI as a country. And for that record that supposed colonial output is my country that Im proud to live in not the UK or Ui but NI and is recognised more as NI than a UI is.

You are taking what is a good forum lads and ruining it with your wee sly comments, if you dont want NI fans on the forum dont have an IL or NI section.

[Duncan Gardner]

All these arguements mean nothing when put up against the Governments' main Criteria: All 3 major sporting bodies must be willing to use it

Only in the sense that if (as seems likely) the three sports won't all show willing, and thus that the Government will quietly abandon the plan.

But of course the Govt. won't operate in a vacuum: a well-organised lobby from fans is likely to be a main factor influencing them.

But you can't just say "all these arguements mean nothing". If you think 'things are as they are and we can't change them' fair enough, but you must realise others disagree and are prepared to do something about it!

The sporting body who require it the least, will in no way be willing to use any stadium in the proposed Belfast locations. The GAA simply do not require this stadium, however are not silly enough to turn down a free stadium

Agreed the GAA don't need it but are politically savvy. And so are more likely to hedge than to dismiss the Maze plan outright.

It's not free: it will cost/ waste £85 million of public money. That's £50 for everyone in NI!

I'm sure the Rugby people could take it or leave it, yet they too are not so stupid as to refuse a freebie

See immediately above.

That leaves the IFA, the organisation who most require a stadium.
Again this organisation is not going to turn down a gift like this, but behaving like spoilt children because all the specifications are not to your liking is getting a bit boring

If it bores you, why are you responding to it? It's not a gift- how many times?- and rational arguments are neither spoilt nor childish.

The quoting of Polls carried out by different people are also overshadowed by the best poll of all, up until Northern Ireland's recent Wales and England Games, it was quite easy to get a tickets for your International games. The demand wasn't great for going to watch a Game in 'Belfast City', so why would the demand increase now?

Naughty. The 'polls' are asking significantly different questions, viz

a) do you- random resident of NI- want to watch them play football at Windsor Park?

b) do you- similarly, random- think a new build at the Maze would be good/ better?

c) do you- fan interviewed watching game at Windsor- want the Maze instead?

You can't simply assume that demand is largely fixed, affected only by a once in a generation game against England. It might well increase in a new stadium, in the city, with better facilities in an area less perceived to be intimidating.

Like many NI fans interviewed by poll c), I think crowds would increase if modestly at Ormeau, but would fall sharply at the Maze.

If you want to stay in Belfast you might as well stay at Windsor and re-develop it. Other wise take the freebie and enjoy it, attempt to expand your audience and get qualifying for a few tournaments

Personally, I wouldn't yet abandon Windsor as a mid-term venue: Ormeau and Maysfield may not get beyond the planning stage. But Windsor is widely agreed to be out of date and badly sited.

If not, Build your own stadium or fix up Linfield's and keep on playing to
10-15,000 people

See above, we plan to, though tending to crowds of 20,000.

If the IFA are the ones most in need of the stadium and the other associations are merely along for the freebie then I think the IFA's criteria cannot and should not be simply dismissed. What is happening here is some form of social engineering by people with little or no stake-holding in the game

Broadly, I agree, though I'd describe it more as politicking. The Government wants a big project to show off its peace dividend. OK, but a stadium at the Maze is unjustified. If the SF and DUP on Lisburn Council can agree to a museum to paramilitarism there, that's up to them. I won't be visiting.

This shouldn't really concern you Bohsfan, unless you're finally going to admitt that you are in fact from Northern Ireland

That's a bit strong- why shouldn't it concern him/her? Just because you're bored doesn't mean everyone else is. In any case, since (I think) you live in NI, why aren't you concerned about such a waste of your taxes?

[Krstic]

I can assure you Bohsfan I haven't complained to anyone about you.
As for the bother of creating a whole character, awful bother alright to register on here!!!!

And I liked your second defensive quote 'No surrender'

Maybe we should all sing 'simply the best now'

Why don't you post up your other numerous posts???

[Krstic]

Dassa and Duncan, my post may have been a little dismissive, sorry.

I can see your arguements but I think you are dismissing footy fans like myself who would go to international games.
But to be honest just not in the centre of Belfast.

I'm a tax payer and I have no problem with the location of the Maze, and as i've said this stadium is about more that the 14,000 who attend your international games.

There's no doubt it's a POLITCAL stunt but you are still getting it free no matter how you spin it. By 'you' I mean the IFA.

So if you guys don't want it 30 mins from Belfast, we'll take it 30 mins from Derry..........out in Eglinton maybe near the City of Derry Airport;)

[Duncan Gardner]

Dassa and Duncan, my post may have been a little dismissive, sorry

No problem.

I can see your arguements but I think you are dismissing footy fans like myself who would go to international games. But to be honest just not in the centre of Belfast

I'm not dismissing you. I'm saying you are very much in the minority (of fans likely to attend NI games).

I'm a tax payer and I have no problem with the location of the Maze

Even though the location, which is likely to directly result in reduced crowds, means a reduced return on the £85 million cost?

and as i've said this stadium is about more that the 14,000 who attend your international games

Of course, but they/we aren't excluding anyone else's point of view. We're merely opposing what we see as a bad decision, explaining that the lack of our support makes the stadium less feasible in its own terms. And that's before we consider the other sports' lukewarm interest in it to date.


There's no doubt it's a POLITCAL stunt but you are still getting it free no matter how you spin it. By 'you' I mean the IFA

The spin is yours- it still costs a lot more than rebuilding Windsor, or a new stadium in the city centre. And there are obvious other costs to the IFA (who are unrepresentative of our support at the moment) if fewer of us turn up to the matches.

So if you guys don't want it 30 mins from Belfast, we'll take it 30 mins from Derry..........out in Eglinton maybe near the City of Derry Airport

Very droll. Personally I'd prefer it in Derry City Centre than at the Maze. That eight-lane motorway through Glenshane and the TGV link from Dublin, Armagh and Omagh make the Maiden City so accessible nowadays :)

[Krstic]

[
I'm not dismissing you. I'm saying you are very much in the minority (of fans likely to attend NI games).



But that's a very narrow minded assumption to make.

Believe it or not, there are people out there who don't currently attend Northern Ireland matches, but would if they felt more 'At Home'.

I'm not trying to say that changing the location of the ground is going to bring all the Northern Based Republic of Ireland fans over to support the North, because we all know it will not happen.
But you could get fans who haven't yet discovered football or an interest in international football.

My Uncles went to the World Cup in Spain in 1982 and got to 2 games, supporting Northern Ireland. Neither have been in Windsor Park since the early 80's.
Pre- the real bad troubles Northern games could easily attract 25-40,000 depending on the opposition, with the crowd being made up of both sides of the community.

It could happen again, maybe not tomorrow but sometime, therefore the maze stadium has to be looked upon as a viable long term option.

[Krstic]

Well and good, but to me this is a tacit acceptance of the ghettoisation of not only N.Irish football but also the wider society. Thats not where we are going, thats where we have been.

You're spot on Bohsfan, we in Northern Ireland (as you well know) are extremely Ghettoised, but so is Northern Ireland's football team.
It get's it support from one side of the community.
If you read my last sentence it is looking forward not back.

A new start, wherever it maybe, 'COULD' help Northern Ireland Ireland football move forward in a way that would attract people like myself, not only attend matches in order to see the oppostion but eventually re-finding a passion to actually support the home side.

I'm not saying this will happen over night but it could happen in the long run.
Then you could have 30,000 plus supporters vying for 14,000 tickets at windsor.

Don't look a gift horse in the mouth and all that stuff:eek:

[Duncan Gardner]

But that's a very narrow minded assumption to make

No, it's a reasonable conclusion based on the available evidence. A specific poll of attending NI fans was overwhelmingly opposed to the Maze. A (necessarily vaguer) poll of NI residents generally was more welcoming, but without demonstrating actual commitment to turn up to games. There simply isn't evidence of a vastly greater potential fan base out there- which is why I say the likely increase in crowds at Ormeau would be modest.

Believe it or not, there are people out there who don't currently attend Northern Ireland matches, but would if they felt more 'At Home'

I believe it, I just don't think it's statistically significant. Such fans would be exchanging a stadium in a unionist area with good nearby facilities, for one in a unionist area with no nearby facilities. For which reason the existing fans would largely have abandoned it.

I'm not trying to say that changing the location of the ground is going to bring all the Northern Based Republic of Ireland fans over to support the North, because we all know it will not happen

Indeed.

But you could get fans who haven't yet discovered football or an interest in international football

Fair point. Also, although the IFA's Football for All guys are too diplomatic to say outright, their aim is largely to get middle-class unionists to come (back). Nationalist fans are assumed to support the Republic, though we will still try to attract them, and make them welcome when they come.

My Uncles went to the World Cup in Spain in 1982 and got to 2 games, supporting Northern Ireland. Neither have been in Windsor Park since the early 80's

Noted. The sectarian atmosphere at games in the 70s and 80s- I was a regular- was widely acknowledged to be much worse than now.

Pre- the real bad troubles Northern games could easily attract 25-40,000 depending on the opposition, with the crowd being made up of both sides of the community. It could happen again, maybe not tomorrow but sometime, therefore the maze stadium has to be looked upon as a viable long term option

This is a non-sequitur. It's an unviable short-term option, so it probably won't happen. You've already admitted above that it won't happen!

Well and good, but to me this is a tacit acceptance of the ghettoisation of not only N.Irish football but also the wider society. Thats not where we are going, thats where we have been

Surely he's suggesting that it might become less of a ghetto, ie RoI fans will be relaxed about watching NI? That would be very welcome, though clearly I disagree the numbers are as significant as Krstic suggests.

A new start, wherever it maybe, 'COULD' help Northern Ireland Ireland football move forward in a way that would attract people like myself

See you at Ormeau Park then!

[Krstic]

[B]Well and good, but to me this is a tacit acceptance of the ghettoisation of not only N.Irish football but also the wider society. Thats not where we are going, thats where we have been

Surely he's suggesting that it might become less of a ghetto, ie RoI fans will be relaxed about watching NI? That would be very welcome, though clearly I disagree the numbers are as significant as Krstic suggests.

That's exactly what I was saying Duncan, but Bohsfan has a habbit of saying what ever he likes in order to make us Derry fans all look like the Spawn of all that is evil.

[Krstic]

[B]I believe it, I just don't think it's statistically significant. Such fans would be exchanging a stadium in a unionist area with good nearby facilities, for one in a unionist area with no nearby facilities. For which reason the existing fans would largely have abandoned it.

See you at Ormeau Park then!

Ah you're bending the facts Duncan, there's a big difference in a perceived 'Unionist area' than a perceived 'Loyalist Area'.

I'm not against Ormeau park, but nobody's giving you a stadium there.
You're being given one at the Maze.

[Duncan Gardner]

Ah you're bending the facts Duncan, there's a big difference in a perceived 'Unionist area' than a perceived 'Loyalist Area'

I'm bending no facts. The Maze site is/ will be obviously different from Windsor Park in the inner city, but both will be equally unionist. And from your point of view- that existing fans will continue to turn up- obviously they'll represent the spectrum of unionist opinion. (BTW, I avoid the term 'loyalism' because it's both vague and self-contradicting)


I'm not against Ormeau park, but nobody's giving you a stadium there.
You're being given one at the Maze

There are plans for both. Neither is fully developed nor costed, but only one needs taxpayers' money.

[Krstic]

I think Duncan is closer to my meaning to be honest. However you point of view, while it has validity, is not one I would favour.

In any other society this issue would be viewed in strictly sporting terms and what I am proposing is that it should also be viewed in those terms here.


Moving to a field in the middle of nowhere just because it comes free of any history is, in my view, actually backward looking, defeatist, and not in the least progressive.


But Bohsfan, Northern Ireland as you well know is very different to other countrys.
A sizeable proportion of this country refuse to recognise it's very right to exist. (Whether they're right or wrong is irrelevant to this debate)
So making a case against the Maze by referring to other nations is meaningless.

As for the Maze site being free of any history:eek: Are you for real:confused:

[Krstic]

In relation to the first sentence my agreement, or otherwise, with the statement is irrelevant. If I agree with it then I will logically conclude that from the point of view of stadium location that no site can be found to satisfy the demands of the people to whom you refer and by extension that pretty much completely wipes any rational/criteria which states that their approval matters. In otherwords if these people refuse to acknowledge the right of the State of N. Ireland to exist then they are not the ones to be consulting about the location of a stadium for the national team of N. Ireland.

If, on the other hand, I disagree with the statement, I might not be right, at this very moment, but it is far more empowering a belief to carry and more constructive too.



Of course it has history, I meant' that term in another way than you have decided to understand it.

Ah c'mon Bohsfan you're being very naughty with that post.

I simply mean that you cannot compare Northern Ireland to other countries because we are not the same.

We have a divided society, unlike England, Scotland, Wales or the Republic Of Ireland where the issue of the stadium would indeed be down to locating a new stadium in logistically the best place, this fcuked up place doesn't have that simplicity.

Again I am not opposed to the alternatives, although i am opposed to Windsor for several reasons.
But I am in favour of the Maze site and WILL attend games there if they ever happen.

[Duncan Gardner]

The point is that any team representing NE Ulster is always going to be contentitous, especially with the native nationalists. You can't just ignore hundreds of years of history involving illegal occupation

Like I said, Gonzo, quit stirring. The siting of this stadium has little directly to do with the partition of Ireland, the famine, Cromwell, Strongbow or any other historical events you want to refer. But, since you insist, the reason there are two football associations in Ireland is because the FAI split. The contention follows largely from that. Otherwise, football could have been like the other sports.

At this rate there'll be a Jewish settlers team wanting to joining UEFA next!

Heh. But we can't have that. They might finish ahead of the Republic in a quali group...

But whilst there's a team representing only 50% or so of the population, most people won't take it that seriously

The rather more than 50% (check nationalist votes in the last elections) take it seriously enough. Plenty of others take it more seriously when it does well. Although presumably you're not equating serious perception and performance in matches. If you were, how then to explain why teams like Wales (no qualification in 15 tournaments), or RoI (one from the last six), have such a huge support home and away?

One last point is given its 'triple' role;Has anyone asked people in the GAA & rugby communities where they want a stadium? Their input is just as valid. Especially given they are actually capable of generating 42000 spectators!

Indeed their input is just as valid, they're just a little less forthright in expressing it. The thing is, we know where the GAA and IRFU want to play big matches. Dublin and, er, Dublin. That applies to provincial finals and internationals against smaller rugby countries. Ravenhill, Casement and Clones will do for more local games.

There's no need for the Maze. Let's face it, you know it's a farce.

[Dassa]

I dont really care how we arrived at having NI as it is today. its here, its my country like ROI is most of yours and when they put a team on the pitch in any sport Il support them. i have no interest in teams that represent either Ireland ie Rugby or Great Britian ie olympics. NI is my country and snide remarks will just enforce my opinion more.

Im sure people in ROI do not appreciate it when people try and airbrush their existance out by saying their british so I hope you would have the same respect for those who want to be Northern Irish and promote it.

and as for this native nationalist tripe wise up. My name is more Irish than most so grow up.

[Krstic]

I think we've gone a wee bit too far off the topic lads:ball: :ball: :ball:

[Dassa]

Dont call me a unionist or suggest that i spout Unionist rhetoric. you know nothing about me. Im not and never have been one. I fully understand that NI arrives at it current situation due to a troubled past. But as i said before its here now and for the future so get used to it.

All I want to see is a NI football team with players from both main traditions and religions (as is currently the case) as well as the minority representatives included. and for this team to be supported by all in the 6 counties of NI if people want to support another country whether it be England, ROI or Brazil;) thats their choice but to hear some of the comments from people on here is pretty narrow minded and bringing politics continually into it with wee jabs of NE ulster just makes the forum for football look stupid.

Enough said by me, Enjoy the forums will reply when it gets back to football.

[dcfcsteve]

Classic unionist 'ostrich' approach!

Little wonder that most nationalists would waste time with such an arrogant attitude that pervades from these quarters. You also have to remember how your 'state' was arrived at;Not exactly done through diplomacy!

Gonzo,

Spare us the 1970's 'We the native Oirish must resist these dirty planters" style rhetoric. It's pathetic and painfully dull, and I don't think you understand how thoroughly ridiculous it makes you sound.

Move with the times and stay on topic. Or take your Aran sweater back to your Wolfe Tones collection and start a proper WUM post somewhere else....

And to think you used to be my favourite muppet. Now you're just a muppet...

[Snoop Drog]

And to think you used to be my favourite muppet. Now you're just a muppet...

:D funny stuff steve :D