Love Ulster March

[Kingdom]

I think the vast majority of citizens of the republic are republicans



Unfortunately the word has been hijacked by the few to mean something undesirable.

:(

I suppose I meant it in the "Traditional" sense of the words Pete. I don't go round saying Ticofaidh ar la or any of that muck, it may of happened during school alright (impressionable feller I was:D ), but I just don't go in for any of it.

[Marked Man]

I think the vast majority of citizens of the republic are republicans



Unfortunately the word has been hijacked by the few to mean something undesirable.

:(

Those who are republican in the sense in which the term is used in the context of Irish politics haven't hijacked the term. After all, what they want is precisely that the six counties of N.Ireland not be ruled by a country which has a longstanding system of the head of state being passed on by heredity.

If your problem with some of those in Ireland who consider themselves Republican is that they subscribe to the use of violence as a means to bring about a constitutional system of government with no heredity, then fair enough. But then your dispute is not with republicans per se, but only with violent ones; and it's not with the hijacking of a term, it's rather with the means pursued.

[Block G Raptor]

I have a degree in history and cant name them...

You Should be ashamed to admit that

[jebus]

That's all very well, but how many in Dublin or elsewhere were arsed to protest? Not very many were that put out they felt the need to protest/ riot/ loot (delete as applicable).

Well from the looks of what happened on saturday it was quite a sizeable crowd that felt the need to protest/ riot/ loot (delete as applicable). And you don't take into account people who had to work on saturday, or had other commiments, not to mention how expensive it is to get from Limerick/Cork/Galway/non-Leinster. And you also don't take into account the fact that certain people can be opposed to something without actually doing anything about it, its what we generally call being Irish*

* Just want to make sure thats not mis-quoted/taken out of context by saying that 'being Irish' as I put it is supposed to mean being put out, or being opposed to certain groups/laws/taxes/etc. but not being bothered to actually do anything other than complain about it.

[Dodge]

And you also don't take into account the fact that certain people can be opposed to something without actually doing anything about it, its what we generally call being Irish.
And of course there are loads of pole who were hugely gainst it but knew there'd be trouble at it so decided to stay away. And of course those who were against it but didn't want to be associated with RSF and the like...

[jebus]

And of course there are loads of pole who were hugely gainst it but knew there'd be trouble at it so decided to stay away. And of course those who were against it but didn't want to be associated with RSF and the like...

Exactly, I know a lot of people who were totally against it but didn't go up to Dublin for one reason or another, I only went up myself to take some photos for my college course, if I hadn't been doing this course I'd have gone to work as usual and read about it in the papers the next day, but I still would have been against it.

[Pat O' Banton]

Really helped sell the republic as non-sectarian state there lads, really brought forward a United Ireland.

Finding mysrelf agreeing with Macy is not siomething that happens ofter but here it is.:eek:

How did the rioting convince people from the Orange tradition that they would have nothing to fear from a united Ireland, how did it do anything to convince them that their traditions, however much we disagree with them, would be respected.

People seem not to realise that many things go into the make up of the history and traditions of a country, some you like some you don't. In any future united Ireland the Orange tradition will have to be recgonised as much as the green one.

However, come the day a united Ireland happens eventually happens I fear that there will be a major rush to expunge signs of Britain's influence in Ireland that the real difference that it should make, irradicating poverty and creating a better society for all regardless of background will be lost. 'If all we do is to change the colour of the postboxes from red to green, then we the influence of imperialism and capitalism will remain' to paraphrase the great James Connolly.

[Pat O' Banton]

All your information is second hand. Ireland has changed a lot in the last few years. You cant beat first hand knowledge of a situation. People who were in Dublin and saw what went on have more right to comment than British people living in London pontificating on something they saw on the telly.

Oooo, I have a British address but was in Ireland at the time of the rioting, so do I have the right to comment or maybe as I was in Ireland but have the British address maybe I can go halfway and ask a question.

Anyways I look forward to hearing your views on any subject beyond the national boundry which will obviously be as half baked as these type of comments.

[klein4]

just take the post for what it is and in context and dont be tryin to infer your own meaning on it. :)

[Macy]

Exactly, I know a lot of people who were totally against it but didn't go up to Dublin for one reason or another, I only went up myself to take some photos for my college course, if I hadn't been doing this course I'd have gone to work as usual and read about it in the papers the next day, but I still would have been against it.
I'll bow to your and dodge's superior knowledge of what the silent majority think - It's all the proof I need anyway. :rolleyes:

[thejollyrodger]

i couldnt sit and read all of the pages but basically I was sad to see the violance in Dublin. As much as I hate the Orange Order / White supremacist / Love Ulster I didnt want to see the parade not go ahead.

[motorcycleman]

Last Saturday's parade in Dublin was not an Orange,UVF,UDA parade as is often mentioned on these pages.
It was organised by a coalition of victims' groups in Northern Ireland, led by F.A.I.R.
It was to highlight their suffering caused by 40 years of terrorist brutality.

That hate filled and intolerant minority that caused Saturdays trouble needs to be exposed for the thugs thay are.
They are the tail (of this State) wagging the dog (the State).How do you they define what being "Irish" is ?
For some it's perhaps exclusively being (into the G.A.A.,Gaelic speaking,cheili music,Wolfe tone's rebel music,R.C.,anti-British,anti-Protestant,fond of the black stuff etc.,etc.).
So much for cherishing all the people of Ireland equally.
Damien Kiberd's Newstalk 106 FM mocking people of the Protestant and unionist tradition on the morning of the Parade and recent comments from the President & Fr. Reid comparing unionists to Nazis didn't help either.
The inclusive harmony between the orange and green traditions as represented by the Republic's national flag appears to be a long way off.

The majority of people in Northern Ireland have a different (view/brand) of Irishness also.
They view themselves as Irish as well as British .
Is it any different for someone in the U.S. being proud to identify themselves as Irish/American ?

Last year threats and intimidation in Cork stopped an invited Orange Lodge partaking in the St.Patrick's day parade.
The Order was founded in Ireland and still operates in Ireland.
Whether it's liked or not ,it's still part of Ireland's history and culture.

Looking to the future and hopefully not straying too far off the topic.
Not a huge fan,however I admire what the four band members of U2 have done for Ireland's positive image across the World.
A band made up of different faith's and backgrounds who have come together in respect,tolerance and accomodation for each other.

Here's to the future of a more tolerant,open Ireland.

[Dodge]

I'll bow to your and dodge's superior knowledge of what the silent majority think - It's all the proof I need anyway. :rolleyes:
Nowhere did I speak about the majority Macy. I'm just going on what people I know have said and general chit chat. Im not saying it was a majorty of people but to say it was only those who protested is wrong

[Roverstillidie]

but motorcylcle man, if FAIR is such a peaceloving and innocent group with no paramiltary or orange connections, why the orange/apprentice boys bands and the placard to the man suspected of the dubln and monaghan bombings (the biggest atrocity of the troubles) as a victim of ira murder?

the violence was appaling, but dont play the innocent protestant card. the march set out to provoke. the scale of the reaction is whats interesting.

if this was simply loyalist victims of the ira laying a wreath, having a prayer service etc. do you think dublin would have erupted?

[dancinpants]

In response to Motorcycle man, if they wanted to march in the memory of victims, why not march in the memory of ALL victims who died at the hands of ALL groupings (Republican/Loyalist/Police/Army) ? What was their rational in concentrating solely on Protestant victims of IRA violence? And having an Orange Band in attendance? The answer is because that wouldn't have provoked the reaction they wanted (and got last Saturday). I don't agree with, in any shape or form, the violence that took part...but the sole purpose of this march was to cause a reaction and harden the attitude of the average Protestant in the 6 counties. The strategy worked a treat - rod out, bait set and RSF took it hook line and sinker.

If the march had been let go, and everyone just ignored it point blank...it would have sent a much more powerful image out, than having a load of scumbags wreck their own city.

[mypost]

What was their rational in concentrating solely on Protestant victims of IRA violence? And having an Orange Band in attendance? The answer is because that wouldn't have provoked the reaction they wanted (and got last Saturday). I don't agree with, in any shape or form, the violence that took part...but the sole purpose of this march was to cause a reaction and harden the attitude of the average Protestant in the 6 counties.

If the march had been let go, and everyone just ignored it point blank...it would have sent a much more powerful image out, than having a load of scumbags wreck their own city.

Dubliners are a peaceful, tolerant lot. There are many different types of protests on the streets of our city every year, whether it be about abortion issues, culchie farmers taking their issues to Leinster House, teachers/nurses on strike, Sinn Fein rallies, anti-American/globalisation demos, etc, etc. However these are protests from Irish people who live in our country, pay taxes to the government, and intend to protest peacefully.

However, when marches are from British people who hate our country, our customs, our values, our people, our political policies, burn our flag, throw blastbombs at Irish children going to school, attempt to oppress Irish people as much as possible, and set out to provoke violence, the very principle of a Loyalist/Orange Order march in Dublin city centre crossed the borderline for many Dubliners, and Irish people in general.

As regards reports that only disadvantaged youths were responsible for the violence that followed, is that the case in Belfast and Derry every summer? Maybe, but it's also anger from nationalists that Loyalists just can't restrict their marches to their own people, they wish to rub Nationalists noses in the dirt too. The same culchies who criticised the disorder in Dublin, would react the same if such a march was allowed in their town. The reaction to the march in Dublin, would be the same anywhere else in the Republic of Ireland.

The cost of the riots in terms of lost business, the policing bill, Dublin's image abroad, is far greater than some authorities' ghastly decision to consider that a British march could pass off peacefully in our capital city. The message from Irish people in O'Connell Street last week was loud and clear. Marchers representing the United Kingdom are not welcome in the Republic of Ireland. Stay at home. If they didn't know that before, they should know it now.

[Poor Student]

Marchers representing the United Kingdom are not welcome in the Republic of Ireland. Stay at home. If they didn't know that before, they should know it now.

And that doesn't say anything about or tarnish our image abroad?

[Dr.Nightdub]

They're Unionists. Get it, UNIONists? They want to maintain the union with Britain. To them, we're a foreign people with a foreign government. So seeing as they're so precious about being British, if they want to lodge a protest to the Irish government, let them do it at the Irish embassy in London.

Down the road though, it's a timebomb waiting to go off in our midst. If and when there's a 32-county Ireland, we'll have a nice little ethnic minority of our own to get stroppy. That'll be an interesting illustration of the poverty of nationalism - how are we gonna deal with that?

[dfx-]

The message from Irish people in O'Connell Street last week was loud and clear. Marchers representing the United Kingdom are not welcome in the Republic of Ireland. Stay at home.

Let me rephrase that. The message from a bunch of idiots last Saturday was loud and clear. And it's time it was muffled for good.

To the second part: We are highly tolerant and welcoming nation, as long as you don't upset some idiots.

Also the "authorities ghastly decision" to allow the march, however much you disagree with it, means that decision should be final. You can try and lay as much blame at 'the authorities' as you like, it still doesn't get away from what a brigade of lunatics got up to last week. That's where the problem lies and for the fear of repeating myself, that's where things have to change, not among 'the authorities'.

[mypost]

They're Unionists. Get it, UNIONists? They want to maintain the union with Britain. To them, we're a foreign people with a foreign government. So seeing as they're so precious about being British, if they want to lodge a protest to the Irish government, let them do it at the Irish embassy in London.

Hit the rock on the ground there!!


it still doesn't get away from what a brigade of lunatics got up to last week. That's where the problem lies

The reaction would be the same in Cork, Limerick, Galway, or anywhere else in Ireland. Are they all lunatics, or making a point? I think the latter. That's what happens when governments do what they like, instead of listening to the voice of the overwhelming majority of people they claim to represent.

Predictably, McDowell refuses to accept responsibility for it, and still hasn't resigned from the cabinet. :rolleyes:

[pete]

Dubliners are a peaceful, tolerant lot.




Marchers representing the United Kingdom are not welcome in the Republic of Ireland. Stay at home. If they didn't know that before, they should know it now.


Hmmmm..... no contradiction there eh? Are unionists not welcome in a united ireland so? WE need to deport 1 million people then?

Irish people were bombing england for 30 years but the UK authorities didn't deport irish people.

The fact remains is that not enough irish people cared enough about the unionists protest to turn up for a counter protest. I think the weigh of numbers shows that dublin & irish people are willing to move on. SF does not represent a significant percentage of the Republics people as they about as representative as the Greens or PDs.

[jebus]

Dubliners are a peaceful, tolerant lot. There are many different types of protests on the streets of our city every year, whether it be about abortion issues, culchie farmers taking their issues to Leinster House

Gas :D :p :D

[dfx-]

Are they all lunatics, or making a point? I think the latter. That's what happens when governments do what they like, instead of listening to the voice of the overwhelming majority of people they claim to represent.


Making what point exactly...? If they don't get their way peacefully, they'll go and get in the way...?:rolleyes:

The overwhelming majority, eh?:rolleyes: It didn't and still doesn't look like it was an overwhelming majority out "counter protesting"...

And one thing they certainly should not listen to is a platoon of general, multi-purpose thugs throwing their fists around because they didn't get their way.

[Poor Student]

For what it's worth, a poll taken on the Indo front page today says (roughly to the best of my memory) 35% blame Love Ulster for the riot while 65% blame RSF. Even with a large margin of error it seems pretty clear what the majority think.

[jebus]

For what it's worth, a poll taken on the Indo front page today says (roughly to the best of my memory) 35% blame Love Ulster for the riot while 65% blame RSF. Even with a large margin of error it seems pretty clear what the majority think.

Another scoop for the Indo I see, I can see the headlines now, 'Rioters Blamed for Riot'. A better poll would have been 'Would you allow Love Ulster to march again?'.

Incidentally there's a great piece in the Guardian comment section today about weighing up freedom of speech against allowing bigots their say

[pete]

For what it's worth, a poll taken on the Indo front page today says (roughly to the best of my memory) 35% blame Love Ulster for the riot while 65% blame RSF. Even with a large margin of error it seems pretty clear what the majority think.

Staggering that 1/3 of people blame the Unionist protestors instead of rioters themselves. While i can acknowledge people disagreeing with the protest march & saying it encouraged the riot I can't see how you can blame them for the buring cars & attacks on the gardai.

:rolleyes:

[John83]

The message from Irish people in O'Connell Street last week was loud and clear. Marchers representing the United Kingdom are not welcome in the Republic of Ireland. Stay at home. If they didn't know that before, they should know it now.
A couple of hundred scumbags don't speak for the country. They certainly don't speak for me.

[Bald Student]

The message from Irish people in O'Connell Street last week was loud and clear. Marchers representing the United Kingdom are not welcome in the Republic of Ireland. Stay at home. If they didn't know that before, they should know it now.What about the two asian men dragged from a shop and beaten, are they not welcome either? Is Charlie Bird welcome?

As far as I'm concerned a few hundred rioters don't represent the irish people.

[Pat O' Banton]

just take the post for what it is and in context and dont be tryin to infer your own meaning on it. :)

I'm sorry its taken so long to get back to this, but what then exactly is ther context that the quote has been taken out of? Of course I have infered my own meaning to it, what exactly are messages boards for if you can't read what some one else has wrote and tried to work out what they meant?

However would you please provide us with and idiots guide on what exactly you are trying to say and also give us a radius of exactly how near the riot you had to be before you can comment with the necessary gravitas on it.

[klein4]

again I stand by what I said originally. I dont think it was that controversial a point to make. you were just tryin to make some smart arse remark in order to start a row. and now you have come back a couple a weeks later to do the same! pathetic!

[Vitruvian Man]

Isn't it strange that just about everybody who has an opinion on what happened uses the riot to back up their own preconceived notions.

Check out what thr right-on lefty types think the riot was all about...

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/74528

[dahamsta]

Isn't it strange how people often use the opinion of one (unnamed) person to diss an entire philosophy and back up their own preconceived notions?

[Vitruvian Man]

Well God bless you dahamsta. I would have thought you, of all people, would be too busy to read such a long article. But, as it happens, I agree with you, he does seem to pull his notions out of thin air when he characterises the philosophy of the centre-right.

It’s good to get another perspective on the riots though, seeing as the government and media used them to push their own agendas.

[Pat O' Banton]

again I stand by what I said originally. I dont think it was that controversial a point to make. you were just tryin to make some smart arse remark in order to start a row. and now you have come back a couple a weeks later to do the same! pathetic!

Actually I don't have regular internet access so that's why it took six days to get back to your point, however I was completely unaware that a statute of limitations existed on foot.ie.

Anyways I would have thought that the whole point of a discussion board was to discuss and challenge opinions where you believe that they are wrong. Maybe we should just have a board where everyone agrees with each other no matter how riddiculous people's points are. Do you really think that when your opinions are challenged that it means that people are trying to start an arguement with you?

You stand by what you say, fine, however you fail to should how your point was taken out of context, which was one of your points. If you can't show this then grand, just let the matter drop, if you can show how then please do so and I will read your point with an open mind.

[dahamsta]

Well God bless you dahamsta. I would have thought you, of all people, would be too busy to read such a long article.I didn't have to, it was on Indymedia and it started with "I". I don't read Indymedia at the best of times, I certainly don't read Op/Ed on Indymedia, and I consider myself one of those "right-on lefty types" you seem so afraid of. You can be left-wing and think Indymedia is, generally speaking, a waste of space; just like you can be right-wing and think that, generally speaking, Ann Coulter is a demented spawn of the devil.

Categorising philosophies into their extremes is not helpful, or particularly adult imho.


I was completely unaware that a statute of limitations existed on foot.ie.Well, one doesn't, however it's not a lot to ask that if you're going to make a point, you hang around long enough to back it up. If you can't do that, whether by choice or by circumstance, perhaps it would be better to wait until you do have the time? Wouldn't we expect the same from our TD's or even participants in a plain jane college debate?

adam

[Vitruvian Man]

those "right-on lefty types" you seem so afraid of.


You’re right I didn’t realise how much rank fear was coming through from that one sentence.

To be honest lefties scare me a little bit but, I’ve been hedging my bets and voting Labour in the last 5 or 6 elections so I reckon I’m ok if any revolutions break out. The trouble is I am petrified by those Right-On types. I mean like, how can you insure yourself against them. Look I don’t mind them, they’re well meaning people and all but, you see I did a bit of back-yard burning a couple of years ago. It was only an old bed and some magazines. Yeah, I knew it was kinda wrong but I figured that well it was no big deal compared to the Chemical Corporations and Sellafield and what have you.

But now it’s a different story. With everyone banging on about the environment like its going out of fashion, I keep thinking “what if somebody saw the smoke” – it was at least 40ft high, somebody HAD to have seen it. What if they are writing it down or something? The last thing I need is the country to get all serious about the environment and then find out I’m on some database or something for being a “burner” next thing you know I’m in jail. I’m almost afraid to go out because you never know who THEY are, do you? It’s not like the sixties anymore when they all had goatees and black polo necks.

I’m beginning to think my mother in law is a Right On type – she looks at me all disapproving and stern. I’m pretty sure she saw the smoke from her house in Ashbourne and, come to think of it, she has a goatee. That bitch never thought I was good enough for her daughter and now I’m going to jail for burning that piece of s hit second-hand bed she gave us for the spare room. Some luck I have.

Agree with the extreme catagorisation thing as well. Not very helpful or adult. It’s good to get all the different perspectives on the riots though, helps you make up your own mind.